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[Slamtastic]

Yes Ryu needs 3 fireballs to mix up the speed.

Do you need to mix up the speed, or do you choose to do so because it is an option you have?

 

[notworksafe]

Do you know if it's possible to get Project M working on the Wii U? I do still have my Wii, but it's out in the living room where people are watching TV all the time so it would be more convenient if I could get it working on the Wii U.

Yep, it's just data on an SD card. You'll need a Brawl disc too. However since you're playing in Wii mode you can only use Remote/Remote+nunchuk/classic controller to play the game.

If you play on the Wii, you'll be able to use GC controllers if that's your thing.

 

[chriskun]

no, they want to feel like a winner. marvel makes you feel like a complete badass just from mashing some shit which is exactly what the complete beginner wants.



except for the events that i help run at comic and anime conventions all over the country? to be honest, i've probably got more time under my belt helping everyone from kids to their parents to a random star trek fan that walks by our booth than anyone here.

first game i show these people is marvel. to be honest i'll probably start them on killer instinct (depending on age) once we get xbox ones. it's even easier to help a beginner with that than it is anything else right now.

lol, exactly, you work at comic book and anime conventions, where there are only enthusiasts. Of course they are gonna love playing marvel it has fucking comic book characters. Forest through the trees man, forest through the trees.

 

[Dahbomb]

There really is a big discrepancy here in what people define as playing at the beginner level.

If playing at the beginner level means that you are able to do "cool shit" with minimum effort then Marvel 3 wins because it has an Automatic mode so you can mash buttons and get supers/hypers. Either that or Naruto/DBZ games with their QTE.

If we are talking about beginner level where a player is expected to do all the basic mechanics in the game then Marvel 3 is not beginner friendly simply due to the number of mechanics you have to learn. You have to learn about assist calling, aerial combos, DHCs, a basic concept of team synergy, usage of X factor, movement with dashing/air dashing, TAC/THCs, advance guarding etc. That's a lot more stuff to learn right off the bat compared to something like ST. And IMO if you don't utilize these tools in the game then you aren't really playing the game... even at a beginner level. You are just mashing without any knowledge.

If people aren't willing to learn a fighting game with the prospect of beating the other player then they should play some action games like God of War to do cool shit while mashing.

 

[toddhunter]

Do you need to mix up the speed, or do you choose to do so because it is an option you have?

Given the option, of course you use it and it is a very useful thing to do that adds depth to the fighting in an intuitive way.

I'm not sure where you are going with that.

If we are talking about beginner level where a player is expected to do all the basic mechanics in the game then Marvel 3 is not beginner friendly simply due to the number of mechanics you have to learn.

In terms of being a beginner (ie me) Marvel was a lot harder to understand and get into. But once I understood it, everything was easier to do (to a beginner level). On the other hand, I understood what I was trying to do pretty much straight away in SF (no doubt due to a legacy with fighting games) but even today I really struggle to execute.

The other factor is the help you have. If you have somebody beside you to explain Marvel or BB characters then it is going to lower a heap of the learning curve.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

on a tangent to this discussion, which game do you guys think has the largest gap between casual play and high-level play?

Melee probably. Not even just the movement the game has but completely different rulesets between casual and competitive play. 1v1 with no items on stages that don't kill you vs. 4p ffa with items and whatever stage.

 

[Clawww]

There's not even life bars in Smash. How are the beginners gonna love a game where you can't see a life bar go down?

they wouldn't love it anyways because you can't do 'cool stuff' in it

stay consistent brother

 

[Professor Beef]

Do you need to mix up the speed, or do you choose to do so because it is an option you have?

Is this like one of those ancient proverbs? Like the sound of one hand clapping?

 

[SixMachine]

on a tangent to this discussion, which game do you guys think has the largest gap between casual play and high-level play?

I actually think it would be the versus series or any "anime" game. The reason is because in games like KOF and SF4 you still play neutral, even if the other guy is way better than you. Even if the other guy can kill you in an HD, he still has to know how to play without it for most of the match. They also have characters that have reversals so they could gamble to gain back momentum if they lose it (though that gamble is not in their favor if they are up again someone who knows that). While in the versus series and "anime" games it's about pressure and better people will aim for playing in a way to maintain it. Also the stuff you gamble to "get out of jail" usually cost a resource like meter or burst, though P4A did give some good reversals. This leads to making it so that one side doesn't "play" at all, such as getting lightning looped to death and eating an incoming mixup or recently watching Kokonoe do all those fireball into teleport shenanigans and making people have to guess constantly.

 

[mbpm1]

Do you need to mix up the speed, or do you choose to do so because it is an option you have?

Going by that logic, no, but who defines "need"?

 

[darkblade77]

I can't wait unil GGXrd comes out, then Bridget DLC comes out, followed by Bridget being banned from all Xrd tournaments a few months after that.

 

[notworksafe]

lol, exactly, you work at comic book and anime conventions, where there are only enthusiasts. Of course they are gonna love playing marvel it has fucking comic book characters. Forest through the trees man, forest through the trees.

only hardcore comic enthusiasts go to comic conventions? so what you're telling me is you've not left your house in many years...or at least never been to a recent convention.

so when they say "no i don't want to try that. it looks hard" while pointing at ae, tekken, injustice, sfxtk, or kof it's because they're too hardcore into comics to like them...even a game with comic characters in it like injustice?

comic conventions are filled with a lot more than hardcore comic guys now. book series fans, webcomic fans, sci fi fans, movie fans, video game fans, families, tour groups, and more.

 

[Slamtastic]

Given the option, of course you use it and it is a very useful thing to do that adds depth to the fighting in an intuitive way.

I'm not sure where you are going with that.

I mean, you make use of whatever tools you are given, in this case 3 variations of the same move.

I'm asking whether having variations of moves or different moves would be preferable.

I'm countering the defense of "the variations of specials get used" by saying that they get used because they exist, but I'm asking what inherently makes them something that should be included.

 

[Dahbomb]

As to what Slamtastic is asking about inputs and moves... I personally prefer that different inputs lead to different moves. Like Dante's QCF L move is completely different than his QCF M move. Of course I come from a Tekken background where every move is different but I still respect SF's style of different button means different strength of same move.

 

[SixMachine]

Do you need to mix up the speed, or do you choose to do so because it is an option you have?

On your previous post about Injustice's inputs, I dislike having two different motions for a variation of the same move. I think something like having Juri's fireball angle being dependent on button strength is more intuitive than Batman's grapple being d,b and and d,f for the angle, because you are using one motion for a variation of the same move. For Juri qcf still gets her a fireball but with a different punch gets a different angle.

Also people choose to mix up speed because it is a really important tool. A new player wouldn't think twice about it but a high level player "needs" it, so they choose to use it. Fireball speed could effect things like punishing things, gaining momentum, and controlling space. You really can't walk behind a fast sonic boom and likewise your opponent can easily react to a slow one if you are trying to zone them out.

 

[Orpheus Telos]

Yep, it's just data on an SD card. You'll need a Brawl disc too. However since you're playing in Wii mode you can only use Remote/Remote+nunchuk/classic controller to play the game.

If you play on the Wii, you'll be able to use GC controllers if that's your thing.

Thanks. I know it's just data on an SD card but I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some bizarre reason it wouldn't work on the Wii U.

 

[chriskun]

only hardcore comic enthusiasts go to comic conventions? so what you're telling me is you've not left your house in many years...or at least never been to a recent convention.

so when they say "no i don't want to try that. it looks hard" while pointing at ae, tekken, injustice, sfxtk, or kof it's because they're too hardcore into comics to like them...even a game with comic characters in it like injustice.

comic conventions are filled with a lot more than hardcore comic guys now. book series fans, webcomic fans, sci fi fans, movie fans, video game fans, families, tour groups, and more.

Even if someone is not a hardcore comic book fan, the fact that they are at a comic convention means that they are gonna be familiar with Spiderman, Wolverine, or Iron man, MVC is of course gonna have a bigger draw.

 

[Curry-Hakase]

And here's another question regarding how NRS does things: Not having a special strength for every attack strength (LP HP or L M H). Do you think this is okay? Does Ryu really NEED 3 Hadokens?

Options add depth to a fighting game. Whether that's a good thing or bad a thing is another discussion within itself.

 

[Slamtastic]

On your previous post about Injustice's inputs, I dislike having two different motions for a variation of the same move. I think something like having Juri's fireball angle being dependent on button strength is more intuitive than Batman's grapple being d,b and and d,f for the angle, because you are using one motion for a variation of the same move. For Juri qcf still gets her a fireball but with a different punch gets a different angle.

Well in the case of the grapple, it has less versions than normal attack strength buttons. Would you propose adding a new grapple angle just to fill out all three?

 

[notworksafe]

Even if someone is not a hardcore comic book fan, the fact that they are at a comic convention means that they are gonna be familiar with Spiderman, Wolverine, or Iron man, MVC is of course gonna have a bigger draw.

Injustice has Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and more. Yet people are more interested in the flashy MvC where they see people doing cool stuff.

Weird, right? Guess it's not just characters attracting them (though it does play a part). I've got plenty of pictures taken of people dressed up like DC characters playing Marvel to show that it just attracts new people like moths to a flame.

 

[Beckx]

aha, found it. It's from an older guide, so it may have been fixed:

1. The Wii U mode will attempt delete key Project M files. Putting the SD card in after booting Wii mode will prevent this deletion.

2. If your Project M files are somehow deleted, you can always just put them back. There are no consequences.

3. You will obviously lack Gamecube controller support. This will make Wii U consoles illegal in official tournament rules. Adapters do however exist, such as the Mayflash GC Controller Adapter for Wii/Wii U.

 

[Shito]

Yes Ryu needs 3 fireballs to mix up the speed.

Was catching up to this thread and wondering why nobody reacted to this strange and absurd question: thanks!

From my little experience of "people at work", it seems to me casual players tend to prefer SF4 over marvel, because everyone knows and has played street fighter enough to know how to jump and HK xx sweep.
Heck, we have one guy who is doing that and only that ever since last year when we received our arcade cabinets...
I agree with P4A being a perfect game for beginners, though.

 

[Threi]

If we are talking about beginner level where a player is expected to do all the basic mechanics in the game then Marvel 3 is not beginner friendly simply due to the number of mechanics you have to learn. You have to learn about assist calling, aerial combos, DHCs, a basic concept of team synergy, usage of X factor, movement with dashing/air dashing, TAC/THCs, advance guarding etc. That's a lot more stuff to learn right off the bat compared to something like ST. And IMO if you don't utilize these tools in the game then you aren't really playing the game... even at a beginner level. You are just mashing without any knowledge.

I disagree here. All of those listed are not "required" for beginner level play in marvel 3, i'd say that steps in the realm of intermediate play. I'd say what you listed are on the same level as the focus system and it's nuances in sf4 (regarding armor on it, character-specific armor breakers, crumple states and focus levels, focus cancelling and dashing), or even EX moves and their differences. I could say in the same way that you aren't really "playing" SF4 unless you have real knowledge of the focus system.

they wouldn't love it anyways because you can't do 'cool stuff' in it

stay consistent brother

thats the point

 

[Dahbomb]

Toddhunter I get you are saying about the two games and here's how I see it.

At entry level:

Marvel harder than AE due to all the mechanics.


At intermediate level:

AE harder to play because everyone gets here quicker and focus is more on links, footsies and match ups because damage doesn't come easy. At intermediate Marvel you just abuse the easy stuff and the hard to block stuff while going into some form of auto pilot because damage comes easy. At this level a better AE player usually wins but in Marvel that is not always the case.


At high level:

Both games are really really hard at this level just in different ways. Generally the better player wins in both games. Both games require a ton of knowledge, a level of execution, strong fundamentals and quick reactions.

 

[chriskun]

Injustice has Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and more. Yet people are more interested in the flashy MvC where they see people doing cool stuff.

Weird, right? Guess it's not just characters attracting them (though it does play a part). I've got plenty of pictures taken of people dressed up like DC characters playing Marvel to show that it just attracts new people like moths to a flame.

we are talking about MVC3 vs Street Fighter. I think this argument has become somewhat derailed and vitriolic, the latter being my fault, but I will say this, teaching people the fundementals of SF is much easier than teaching them the fundementals of Marvel. Yeah people might get the random super, or TAC in marvel and it will be fun for 5 mins, but to actually get them into the game for a prolonged period its way harder.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I'm asking whether having variations of moves or different moves would be preferable.

I don't see why you can't do both.

You even gave the example how to in your original post.

There's also the fact that in Injustice to do attacks with different variations (screen position close/medium/far or projectile speed slow/medium/fast) you input the move, then hold a direction on the stick during the move's startup to define which version you want.

 

[Busaiku]

I can't wait unil GGXrd comes out, then Bridget DLC comes out, followed by Bridget being banned from all Xrd tournaments a few months after that.

Should be in initial release.
Arc System Works please.

 

[notworksafe]

we are talking about MVC3 vs Street Fighter. I think this argument has become somewhat derailed and vitriolic, the latter being my fault, but I will say this, teaching people the fundementals of SF is much easier than teaching them the fundementals of Marvel. Yeah people might get the random super, or TAC in marvel and it will be fun for 5 mins, but to actually get them into the game for a prolonged period its way harder.

And I'm saying you're wrong from my own experience of spending time teaching people of all ages and all skill levels how to play those games and more in many different environments.

They lose interest in trying sf quickly, if they even want to give it a try at all.

 

[SixMachine]

Well in the case of the grapple, it has less versions than normal attack strength buttons. Would you propose adding a new grapple angle just to fill out all three?

Depends on developer intent in this case. If one button did nothing for the grapple motion, it honestly would not be too big of a hassle and not used, likewise if they made something absurdly useless, it just won't be used at all (though if people did it by mistake too many times, it would be huge user error or really lax inputs). But if it was a useful tool like a fireball feint, sure, it would be a welcome addition. If NRS didn't have the resources and time to put in a 3rd move, then they could just be fine with the two already in imo since it covers the horizontal and upward angle.

 

[toddhunter]

I'm countering the defense of "the variations of specials get used" by saying that they get used because they exist, but I'm asking what inherently makes them something that should be included.

Yeah sorry, I don't quite get the line of argument. It is like saying "why do we have a jump button? It only gets used because it exists"

It is fun in a fighting game to jump, it is fun to use an attack with different properties. There is always a balance of course, but I believe SF4 strikes it well and the way it approaches this is a massive strength.

I agree with P4A being a perfect game for beginners, though.

I don't think you can make that call in isolation. In P4A Execution is more or less easy...but my concern with the people you will play against (just above beginner) is you can never press a button unless you are 100% sure of what you are doing (which a beginner will not be). As a result beginners can be bodied with little idea of what is going on (same with Marvel).

I still contend SF4 is the perfect beginners game because outside of a few vortex characters you are always "in the match" and get a chance to try things. When they don't work, you can obviously do something else which is how you learn and actually get to that "I'm competing" stage.

Toddhunter I get you are saying about the two games and here's how I see it.

Yeah I agree with all that. I think the crucial thing is getting a beginner to that intermediate level as fast as possible. Because obviously if you don't, it isn't going to be much fun and they'll probably be lost forever.

 

[sixteen-bit]

How small is Xrd's initial roster?

 

[Smooth Operator]

How small is Xrd's initial roster?

13

 

[Clawww]

On your previous post about Injustice's inputs, I dislike having two different motions for a variation of the same move. I think something like having Juri's fireball angle being dependent on button strength is more intuitive than Batman's grapple being d,b and and d,f for the angle, because you are using one motion for a variation of the same move. For Juri qcf still gets her a fireball but with a different punch gets a different angle.

this has always driven be me totally fucking bonkers in NRS games.

13

I'm down with a small roster to start off with. but then again I know there are a few characters in there that I like

 

[kirblar]

13

Have they said that it's the final launch roster?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

You mean like Zero?

Except he is like #1 in almost all community tier lists and most pro rankings as well.

You forget that Ultimate Marvel started with the BS of Wesker being better than Zero because no one can lighting loop consistently. Mihe was amazing because he was the only one who could do it.


And then people learned Zero.

 

[Dahbomb]

We need to do a social experiment on this and lay out the ground rules!

Eventhubs can help with the data collection.

 

[.la1n]

Have they said that it's the final launch roster?

Not that I'm aware of. I believe that's just an assumption based on current code vs when they intend to launch in arcades.

 

[BakedYams]

Toddhunter I get you are saying about the two games and here's how I see it.

At entry level:

Marvel harder than AE due to all the mechanics.


At intermediate level:

AE harder to play because everyone gets here quicker and focus is more on links, footsies and match ups because damage doesn't come easy. At intermediate Marvel you just abuse the easy stuff and the hard to block stuff while going into some form of auto pilot because damage comes easy. At this level a better AE player usually wins but in Marvel that is not always the case.


At high level:

Both games are really really hard at this level just in different ways. Generally the better player wins in both games. Both games require a ton of knowledge, a level of execution, strong fundamentals and quick reactions.

Completely agree with this. Although I'd question the beginner level, you can mash buttons in marvel and somehow get something out, that is a no no in SF. I believe Marvel is the easier game overall in terms of comboing but has won over SF in timing and intricacy. Sure SF has a bunch of combos that require hours of practice, but for marvel you need stamina to pull off these combos for quite a while.

 

[Slamtastic]

I don't see why you can't do both.

You even gave the example how to in your original post.

Well in the case of a game that ties attack variations to available strengths of normals, when giving a fireball to a new character, you're going to have 3 versions, usually speeds, just to be consistent with the established pattern. Does anyone consider that a single consistent speed of projectile or other move property could be an intentional design or balance choice? What would you say to a SF character where QCF P does a different move for every strength?

I do think that Injustice does a best of both style were you can have variations, but the lack of variations can be a balancing tool, and you can have more moves while still using only quarter circles and back forwards, lowering execution.

 

[Master Milk]

I can't wait unil GGXrd comes out, then Bridget DLC comes out, followed by Bridget being banned from all Xrd tournaments a few months after that.

Weren't Justice and Kliff traditionally banned because they were console only and not balanced in the arcades? It's kind of surprising that Kokonoe's even been allowed to rock.

 

[Shito]

I don't think you can make that call in isolation. In P4A Execution is more or less easy...but my concern with the people you will play against (just above beginner) is you can never press a button unless you are 100% sure of what you are doing (which a beginner will not be). As a result beginners can be bodied with little idea of what is going on (same with Marvel).

I still contend SF4 is the perfect beginners game because outside of a few vortex characters you are always "in the match" and get a chance to try things. When they don't work, you can obviously do something else which is how you learn and actually get to that "I'm competing" stage.

Yeah, I can see where you're getting at, and kinda agree somewhat. I'm probably a bit jaded that a game letting people go with such bullshit as mashing DP everywhere is good for beginners, but it probably is. And it's probably one of the bigger reasons why it is.
I'd also argue it depends on your environment: if everyone around you is playing the same game, you'll get more people wanting to try it out. SF4 is perfect for that because it has this universal appeal.

 

[chriskun]

We need to do a social experiment on this and lay out the ground rules!

Eventhubs can help with the data collection.

yes indeed.

 

[Slamtastic]

Weren't Justice and Kliff traditionally banned because they were console only and not balanced in the arcades? It's kind of surprising that Kokonoe's even been allowed to rock.

How many international entrants have the US Majors had in BB since the DLC release?

Japanese refusing to play out of arcades should have no bearing on what Americans do.

 

[Dahbomb]

You forget that Ultimate Marvel started with the BS of Wesker being better than Zero because no one can lighting loop consistently.

I didn't forget anything. Wesker was always complained about by stream monsters and some top players but any person who knew their shit knew Zero was the best. The initial SRK community tier list to come out for the game back in early 2012 had Zero as #1 and Vergil #2.

Yes people stated that Zero couldn't be #1 because he didn't have the results and had an execution limitation. It basically split opinions into "theory fighter" vs "current reality". Of course everytime Zero was on screen I made sure I stated "fair and balanced" character so people who thought the execution factor was a limiter would realize how wrong they were. Eventually Zero won EVO and that pretty much confirmed it.

That said community list still got one major thing wrong and that was where Morrigan was in the tier list. She wasn't on anyone's radar until ChrisG picked her up.

TLR version; Lots of complaints about Wesker, naysayers of Zero but in community lists Zero was still #1. Wesker kept dropping in tier list, Zero stayed #1 but the naysayers weren't silenced until the big EVO win. Everyone got Morrigan wrong initially.

 

[kirblar]

I didn't forget anything. Wesker was always complained about by stream monsters but any person who knew their shit knew Zero was the best. The initial SRK community tier list to come out for the game back in early 2012 had Zero as #1 and Vergil #2.

Yes people stated that Zero couldn't be #1 because he didn't have the results and had an execution limitation. It basically split opinions into "theory fighter" vs "current reality". Of course everytime Zero was on screen I made sure I stated "fair and balanced" character so people who thought the execution factor was a limiter would realize how wrong they were. Eventually Zero won EVO and that pretty much confirmed it.

That said community list still got one major thing wrong and that was where Morrigan was in the tier list. She wasn't on anyone's radar until ChrisG picked her up.

TLR version; Lots of complaints about Wesker, naysayers of Zero but in community lists Zero was still #1. Wesker kept dropping in tier list, Zero stayed #1 but the naysayers weren't silenced until the big EVO win. Everyone got Morrigan wrong initially.

Zero not being #1 also had a lot to do with ChrisG steamrolling everyone.

 

[Clawww]

alright, quick little game just for fun while we're at it:

If you could only offer FIVE concise, bullet-point style tips/explanations to a new player in MvC3 or SF4, what would they be? (Five for each game, that is). Can be anything. Teach them about links or focus or TACs or OTG or whatever. What's core knowledge? Which game can arguably get away with a simpler breakdown?

Here's my stab at it.

MvC3:
-basic air/ground chain combo
-OTG
-Calling assists
-DHC
-X factor

SF4:
-Special cancelling
-Throws/teching
-Links
-Focus absorb/attack
-EX specials

There's more stuff I feel is 'missing' in terms of what I'd like someone to know about Marvel, but that stuff is a lot easier to perform, so there's that.

 

[Master Milk]

How many international entrants have the US Majors had in BB since the DLC release?

Japanese refusing to play out of arcades should have no bearing on what Americans do.

No idea, probably none. But I don't see why that matters.

The American scene has always been heavily influenced by what the Japanese do.

 

[Rhapsody]

Weren't Justice and Kliff traditionally banned because they were console only and not balanced in the arcades? It's kind of surprising that Kokonoe's even been allowed to rock.

Ever since SF4, people have been allowing DLC/console characters for tourneys, before then, no.

But Kliff and Justice weren't exactly balanced either, so that's part of the ban.

 

[mr. puppy]

amazing post on shoryuken by 'imterribe' after somebody commented on how much they hate seeing Wolvering:

i like seeing pr rog win cause he clearly gives no fucks. Cause how many fucking hours do u need to spend in training mode practicing dash+beam or lvl 3 rapid slash into lmh. The game is so fucking broken and easy to him that its hilarious to see him beat on other players with chars that require a decent amt of practice for consistent execution(light loops, mag combobo


What i'm trying to say is that it's funny to see him beat up on fat kids all day erryday. Fucking fat kids who spend 7 hrs a day in the lab with godlike brolic finger muscles but bigass man titties practicing tiger knee lighting loops in the left corner cause their right corner is aite. Fucking mountain dew pepsi cans all crushed up next to their asus monitors and half eaten hostess cupcakes, pizza stains everywhere. "Just one more set of light loops and imma call it a day". "Imma take the next major cause i put in fucking 150 hours this week and gained 52 lbs of pure cholesterol, i deserve this shit nigguh

while pr balrog, who clearly hasnt played the game in months, walks in with a puerto rican smirk and that new bosley haircut no fucking homo and just utterly destroys mr. big hips with a fradulent yet necessary lvl2 vergil comeback. Shit is cohmedy my homosapien ass niggas

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Take the JTMS approach: if banning a character would get butts in the door that would have avoided the tourney otherwise, do it