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[Negaduck]

RE: combo breakers

I'm actually okay with combo breakers but more as a one time burst/once a round burst. I like that when an opponent panics you can bait them so it throws a little bit more mindgames into combos if you are doing a specific string that might end where you can punish the burst.

I wouldn't mind if that wasn't the case either and the burst just put both players on opposite sides of the screen and just reset the players back to the neutral game.

TAC's were a good idea at first when they would grant the defensive player the combo opportunity, people didn't like that when the game was in beta and oh boy look where we are today. I think tournaments would be very much different if the defensive player got a free air combo when they guessed right.

My biggest issue with some of the mechanics in UMVC3 currently (sorry if general mechanics weren't part of the conversation just something i like to vent about) is that X factor currently gives different stats for different characters. To me personally that makes the mechanic super unbalanced. I would have liked it much better if the bonus amounts it gave to characters for speed/damage etc. was a flat 10% or whatever x-factor 1 currently gives (which itself is super vague as it's different for each character!).

Having different stat boosts for characters just overall makes it better on some characters than others and in my mind is just bad design. At the very least have the time it's active for each character be the same.

Lastly where the F is my dude sigma at? Capcops pls.

Spoiler

Megaman.exe also pls.

Just picked up Skullgirls on steam. Got the base game and all the DLC for just under $7. Super happy about that and can't wait to start playing.

 

[Karsticles]

x-factor should've also been a burst

You want Zero to move up to SSS tier?

 

[Dahbomb]

x-factor should've also been a burst

Yes so Zero teams could be even stronger...

 

[SolarPowered]

Anyone looking to train in SG feel free to PM me. Having an actual training space is neat, but it doesn't seem to get much use.

 

[Negaduck]

Yes so Zero teams could be even stronger...

Burst as in resets the game to neutral not megacrash TVC style.

Not even BB or GG style, more like MK breaker that just ends the combo and resets both players back to the neutral game.

Anyone looking to train in SG feel free to PM me. Having an actual training space is neat, but it doesn't seem to get much use.

I'll have to take you up on that fairly soon. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow we can get some games in.

 

[enzo_gt]

We should cuddle. You wanna cuddle? Cuz I could cuddle that post. I'd like to snuggle it.

Come here bb

Reason being is that Sumo Digital (Sonic All Stars Racing) is still operative and working for SEGA so they have no need to do any further subcontracting for a racing title.

I mean it's not totally impossible but it's so unlikely that my head would spin around, detach from my neck and launch itself into the stratosphere if I heard it was true. Then after I achieve orbit I'd realize that contracting Capcom for a racer is stupid, when's the last time Capcom made a racing title?

I wasn't serious, but out of curiosity do we know what Sumo is working on right now outside of Disney Infinity?

And I'm all for developers branching out of their place of expertise, usually how you get some unique perspectives on other genres, like Criterion with Black.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

The comments from people on the web about the new Xrd character is amusing. Some people are mad lol

Links?

I'm in the mood to read some inane nitpicking.

 

[hypernima]

Worth?

 

[Negaduck]

I don't mind the new characters for GG. I like the design, i'm actually more interested in seeing the updated costumes for returning characters such as Anji or Bridget to see if they really go wild with them.


Hopefully with SF5 we don't just get the same costume again and again. Throw some flourishes onto the design like with bison, add a longer coat and gray hair. Super cool old man bipson.

 

[Onemic]

Worth?

yes

Either that or wait for the summer sale which will probably include all the DLC for like 25 bucks.

 

[CurlyW]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think A.B.A. gets her reference from some Swedish pop group named ABBA.

You're correct. Couldn't escape if I wanted to.

 

[Anne]

Man you guys get dumb sometimes.

 

[alstein]

yes

Either that or wait for the summer sale which will probably include all the DLC for like 25 bucks.

I don't think Capcom has ever put the latest batch of DLC for sale at anything more than 25%.

 

[Dahbomb]

Burst as in resets the game to neutral not megacrash TVC style.

Not even BB or GG style, more like MK breaker that just ends the combo and resets both players back to the neutral game.

It doesn't matter what kind of burst/combo breaker is put in MVC3, it would make Zero even better and also Morrigan.

This keeps being brought up multiple times so I am just going to explain it so people know why it's a bad idea for this game.

When people think combo breakers for MVC3 they usually think "oh man it would be so much better if I could break out of this Zero combo... no more TODs!" While it's true that you could avoid getting your point killed... you have to understand that this applies to Zero/Morrigan as well. They are characters that are extremely hard to get a hit on because of their mobility, space control and hitboxes. The only reason why they don't win every single tournament is because they die in one combo like everyone else. They have the best match ups in the game and if you implement combo breakers than they dominate match ups even more.

Imagine playing as Hulk struggling for your entire life bar to land a hit on these characters and then get combo broken. Neither of these characters need XF to kill your team, they will gladly burn it to extend their effective life bar to get a 2nd chance at beating you in neutral.

Meter based combo breaker like Megacrash benefits Zero/Doom/Mag the most because they build the most meter in combos. It would nerf Vergil/Morrigan/Wolverine but they would still be top tier. Would crush the lower tier characters like Storm, Hulk etc. who need all the meter they make. There's just too much of a difference in the amount of meter generated by some characters vs other.

XF based combo breaker would fundamentally alter the anchor game and the meta game would move from Doom/Vergil to either 2nd point/Doom or Dante or Doom/Dante as the core shells. It would be a massive buff to front loaded teams like the Firebrand team and of course Zero. Because it would be a massive buff to front loaded teams, people would adopt the MVC2 structure of teams with no dedicated anchors. It would severely nerf Vergil/Strider/Phoenix but greatly buff Zero, Dante, Morrigan, Wolverine, Doom, Magneto etc. Game would boil down to who loses their point first. This all sounds good on paper but it's not... you are going to have a very snowball type playstyle, more so than it is now and there will be many more of those Haggar flailing around against a for 30 seconds against a full team of keep away characters (similar to MVC2 CapCom flailing around against Storm/Sentinel).

 

[Shackzam]

What brought up all this marvel talk?

 

[Crocodile]

What brought up all this marvel talk?

4chan farted and people got Marvel vapors

 

[El Sabroso]

something something outsourcing

MvC4 outsourced to Iron Galaxy? Let's go.

Would get me to pick up an X1 for sure, and it'll probably by at a reasonable price by then too.

What brought up all this marvel talk?

this post

Worth?

was 15 a few days ago on gmg even a friend got it at 12 USD using a 20% off code on that purchase, should wait until summer sale on steam

 

[Dahbomb]

What brought up all this marvel talk?

Microsoft announced the patch.

 

[Dai101]

Man you guys get dumb sometimes.

Sometimes?

 

[Rhapsody]

Links?

I'm in the mood to read some inane nitpicking.

Just some in Dustloop Xrd news and gameplay thread. It's not as bad as when Elphelt was shown though. (and mods might've cleared messages for all I know)

 

[Nyoro SF]

Man you guys get dumb sometimes.

Sometimes? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Come here bb

I wasn't serious, but out of curiosity do we know what Sumo is working on right now outside of Disney Infinity?

And I'm all for developers branching out of their place of expertise, usually how you get some unique perspectives on other genres, like Criterion with Black.

There is actually a very thinly backed rumor that Sega is working on some sort of collaboration title with Capcom, like a VS title of some sort. This was a while ago, about 5 months ago. Never heard anything come of it though, so it would be rather amazing if there was a Capcom vs. Sega All Stars Racing, I don't know how I'd feel if it was just Capcom developing Outrun though, guess I'd be cool with it.

 

[BakedYams]

Now I remember why I dropped SF, I didn't like the pace of it lol. It's a good way to learn how to be patient.

 

[Dlent]

May has been in Guilty Gear from day one and the series has only become more moe from then on; anyone who thought of GG as some kind of hardcore metal/rock fighter was deluded.

 

[Negaduck]

snip

I would disagree in them being purely bad mainly because mvc3 at least is a game all about chances, you want to TOD because if you drop the combo and give your opponent another chance they might get the return combo on you and you end up winning the game.

Its hard to have these discussions though because theory crafting assumes perfect play and execution which doesn't factor the human element of messing something up.

I think a burst could be done well and when it comes to talking about making a game better with or without burst, I think umvc3 would benefit from it. When it comes to zero being a problem or haggar or hulk struggling as anchor those things will happen regardless. However if a combo starts let's say (fantasy land of course) hulk might get one more chance to land a hit and Kaneblueriver would convert to full damage or snap out and get great mixups.

I only mean to say I think a marvel game would benefit from a burst system rather than without. I don't want to theory craft because everyone would present the most optimum situation for their character which doesn't happen or rarely happens.

I'll say a marvel or vs game rather than umvc3 specifically.

 

[TheChits]

Atlanta's MKX weekly. Lots of killers
http://www.twitch.tv/yomi_gaming

 

[Professor Beef]

Now I remember why I dropped SF, I didn't like the pace of it lol. It's a good way to learn how to be patient.

Wolverine players, patient? lmao

 

[Flying High]

I do think that a burst in Marvel could work, but it NEEDS a steep cost so you can't/don't want to use it ANYTIME you get hit. Like lets say it cost three meters AND X-Factor to use, AND you can only use it ONCE per match. Making it cost a TON of resources would make it balance somewhat while making you able to survive the match, OR have it cost ALL your meter, AND you cannot build meter for the REST of the match, so characters HAVE to go for resets because they can't kill, unless they burn X-Factor.

There is a way to make a burst balance WITHOUT changing the game a ton because of it

 

[Busaiku]

Combo breakers look really bad to viewers - the mental game is there between the players but none of that gets communicated to the audience.

Burst baits are the most hype things.

 

[MrDaravon]

Mike Ross pls

 

[Dahbomb]

I do think that a burst in Marvel could work, but it NEEDS a steep cost so you can't/don't want to use it ANYTIME you get hit. Like lets say it cost three meters AND X-Factor to use, AND you can only use it ONCE per match. Making it cost a TON of resources would make it balance somewhat while making you able to survive the match, OR have it cost ALL your meter, AND you cannot build meter for the REST of the match, so characters HAVE to go for resets because they can't kill, unless they burn X-Factor.

There is a way to make a burst balance WITHOUT changing the game a ton because of it

This is still a bad idea and would make Zero SSS tier.
Zero would gladly give up 3 bars and an XF to get a second chance.

He would also gladly give up meter gain for the rest of the game if it means he gets another chance because he does insane meterless damage as well. However, every other characters except maybe Magneto would never break a combo and it would make the mechanic meaningless for all but a couple of characters.

So basically Zero would get you in a combo and you have two options:

1 Let him combo you and run a train on you while you prey for enough room to XF and mount a comeback.

2 You break the combo, now you are gimped for the rest of the game and when Zero lands a hit on you next time you are definitely done for as you will lack any resources to mount any form of momentum.

 

[Karsticles]

It doesn't matter what kind of burst/combo breaker is put in MVC3, it would make Zero even better and also Morrigan.

This keeps being brought up multiple times so I am just going to explain it so people know why it's a bad idea for this game.

When people think combo breakers for MVC3 they usually think "oh man it would be so much better if I could break out of this Zero combo... no more TODs!" While it's true that you could avoid getting your point killed... you have to understand that this applies to Zero/Morrigan as well. They are characters that are extremely hard to get a hit on because of their mobility, space control and hitboxes. The only reason why they don't win every single tournament is because they die in one combo like everyone else. They have the best match ups in the game and if you implement combo breakers than they dominate match ups even more.

Imagine playing as Hulk struggling for your entire life bar to land a hit on these characters and then get combo broken. Neither of these characters need XF to kill your team, they will gladly burn it to extend their effective life bar to get a 2nd chance at beating you in neutral.

Meter based combo breaker like Megacrash benefits Zero/Doom/Mag the most because they build the most meter in combos. It would nerf Vergil/Morrigan/Wolverine but they would still be top tier. Would crush the lower tier characters like Storm, Hulk etc. who need all the meter they make. There's just too much of a difference in the amount of meter generated by some characters vs other.

XF based combo breaker would fundamentally alter the anchor game and the meta game would move from Doom/Vergil to either 2nd point/Doom or Dante or Doom/Dante as the core shells. It would be a massive buff to front loaded teams like the Firebrand team and of course Zero. Because it would be a massive buff to front loaded teams, people would adopt the MVC2 structure of teams with no dedicated anchors. It would severely nerf Vergil/Strider/Phoenix but greatly buff Zero, Dante, Morrigan, Wolverine, Doom, Magneto etc. Game would boil down to who loses their point first. This all sounds good on paper but it's not... you are going to have a very snowball type playstyle, more so than it is now and there will be many more of those Haggar flailing around against a for 30 seconds against a full team of keep away characters (similar to MVC2 CapCom flailing around against Storm/Sentinel).

I agree with all of this.

 

[shaowebb]

I think the core element though is to stop referencing the debate of breakers in relationship to what Marvel 3 is and keep thinking of it for the reasons it was brought up...as something that may be good or not for a Marvel 4.

Marvel 3 had its day and its not going to get support. Marvel 4 was discussed because it has potential with rumors and the current market to be an actually viable option for Microsoft to pay for a license on to get made as an exclusive to compete for the FGC console support vs SFV on the PS4. Marvel 3.5 the new patch wouldn't serve the same as a full on sequel in terms of interest for either Disney or Microsoft vs Street Fighter getting a full sequel given how old Marvel 3 is.

Breakers shouldn't be being discussed for Marvel 3 if we are talking their merit. Marvel 4 should be a next step and a further evolution than Marvel 3. Tabling breakers and their merit vs the issues of long combos and TOD experienced in the previous titles is what this really should be steering towards.

Breakers aren't necessarily bad, you just have to design for them. That said what sorts of things would you feel in a Marvel title would need to be setup as checks and balances for breakers? A cancel system? Readable/punishable breakers? Meter checks and balances vs offensive tools (does this risk people ever using supers like in TVC?), more defensive mobility tools like dodges?

This is what I feel the breaker/MVC4 thoughts should try to focus on...the future not the past. We know how MVC3's system worked and its predecessors. How do you feel that system could grow in terms of new mechanics and not just the removal of old ones and how do you feel they could balance Breakers if they went that route to implement changes to shake up things?

Thats whats REALLY being discussed here in my eyes. If breakers get tabled around Marvel for a Marvel 4 NOT 3 how would they need balanced within the environment of offense meant to be that fast and powerful without slowing down the pace, sidestepping mind games without risk or without undermining good play?

 

[Karsticles]

I really can't understand what breakers can add to a game like Marvel.

Edit: You know what could be cool?

EX Assist calls. ;-)

 

[Dahbomb]

I wasn't the one who said Megacrash/combo breakers would be a good thing for MVC3. A couple of people said it would work in the game and I explained how it would make the game worse balance wise.

 

[Anne]

Tonight is one of those nights where I'm salty at bringing set ups to casuals and not getting to play anything.

 

[Rawr Its Ry]

daaaaamn julio with that nasty sim bait

 

[smurfx]

i want no comeback mechanics if there ever was an mvc4. people will just need to choose their teams carefully. just cut down on characters and balance them out so everybody is good solo. oh and no nitsuma.

 

[Onemic]

Just remove TOD combos, Xfactor, and 30 second combos and I'll be all on board with MvC4

Spoiler

MvC4 aint comin tho. Y'all are delusional

Now I remember why I dropped SF, I didn't like the pace of it lol. It's a good way to learn how to be patient.

Rolento doesnt have to play patient tho

 

[shaowebb]

I wasn't the one who said Megacrash/combo breakers would be a good thing for MVC3. A couple of people said it would work in the game and I explained how it would make the game worse balance wise.

Agreed and as I said it was a hamfisted point I was trying to make earlier and we got sidetracked. So lets get back to some real stuff that should probably be discussed in the open where folks can point at it someday...

For Marvel 4 to be an evolution of the vs games we were debating breakers and what sort of systems the game would need to keep them in check while leaving marvel still fast, offense filled and exciting with deep mindgames. New systems, the removal of old systems, revamping of systems...core stuff that would need talked about as how they could go about stuff.

If we discuss ourselves into a no win situation tabling breakers and whether they could be implemented with merit in marvel then thats cool. TvC showed signs of promise with its balance of breakers and offense but it needed work. Marvel had more offense but it needed work too. Lets see how far this rabbit hole goes by talking the breaker thing through though in regards to the heavier offense stylings of Marvel.

 

[SolarPowered]

Now I remember why I dropped SF, I didn't like the pace of it lol. It's a good way to learn how to be patient.

Any fighter can teach you patience. SF4 is on a different level compared to others fighters in that regard.

 

[Karsticles]

i want no comeback mechanics if there ever was an mvc4. people will just need to choose their teams carefully. just cut down on characters and balance them out so everybody is good solo. oh and no nitsuma.

I'm cool with a comeback mechanic...sort of.

I think every character should have a solo assist to ensure there's a chance of victory. Strider Hiryu can call in another Strider to throw a projectile of some kind, etc. You need something like that to keep the game from being a landslide once the first two characters are dead.

Any fighter can teach you patience. SF4 is on a different level compared to others fighters in that regard.

Makes chess look fast-paced in some matchups.

 

[Rawr Its Ry]

lmfao mike vs this guy is so damn good

edit: blockblockblockblockblockblockblock

 

[Mr. X]

Anyone with an inkling of interest in Skullgirls can get everything for like 8 bucks. Everything as in the game and all DLC.

Do it. Best netcode, all play lobbies, dope training mode.

 

[Rhapsody]

These FAB combos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipBJM-CFQS8#t=15m35s

 

[MrDaravon]

Oh my God Mike accidentally took a match with the tool assisted streamer that plays Abel, this is godlike

 

[BakedYams]

Rolento doesnt have to play patient tho

i suck with him lol

 

[smurfx]

I'm cool with a comeback mechanic...sort of.

I think every character should have a solo assist to ensure there's a chance of victory. Strider Hiryu can call in another Strider to throw a projectile of some kind, etc. You need something like that to keep the game from being a landslide once the first two characters are dead.


Makes chess look fast-paced in some matchups.

how about being able to call assists solo but at a cost of life? maybe 30-50k damage? maybe the stronger the assist the more life it takes.

 

[Rawr Its Ry]

LOL BJ SALLLLLTTTTYYYYYY

 

[MrDaravon]

That was amazing.

 

[Karsticles]

how about being able to call assists solo but at a cost of life? maybe 30-50k damage? maybe the stronger the assist the more life it takes.

Why make it cost life? What's overpowered about it that would necessitate a drawback? You're just letting people have half of the "team mechanic" so characters like Haggar aren't screwed (Haggar could call a barrel to roll across the screen or something).