Lostconfused
Member
Too tired to function as a human being, maybe I should play some video games. So that rules out fighting games, haw.
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Fighting Games Weekly | June 1-7 | QAisTopTier
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Rice-Eater
Member
First time I played Toolassisted was about 2 years ago. I had no idea what I was up against at first. Some of the things it was able to do and react to and just the amount of correct guessing just didn't seem human. After a few losses I just took a harder look at his name and realized it basically told me what I was already thinking. This guy wasn't human.
As long as you know what you're getting into, it's actually fun to play it just to basically do what the guys on CPT tried to do, crack the code.
As long as you know what you're getting into, it's actually fun to play it just to basically do what the guys on CPT tried to do, crack the code.
commanderpepper
Member
So how would you guys feel about a GG like burst in UMvC3. You get a burst at the start of each game and build it back by taking damage.
Isn't it "I thought you were going to do X, but instead you did Y, or Z, or you dropped the letter completely and I got baited"
Least in KI
Karsticles
Member
What kinds of stuff can the tool do, exactly?
The only way it would work is if you built enough during each combo to burst, but once you are out of the combo, you lose the gauge. Then, get rid of hitstun decay. All combos end in a burst or a reset - that would provide an intense metagame to follow, and everyone would have variations upon variations of combos so people never saw the resets coming - the highest damage would no longer be the most important aspect of a combo, but rather its reset opportunities.
At least, if I made a fighting game, that's how it would work.
SolarPowered
Member
Good post
Sometimes it is hard to see how system-wide mechanic changes can have unintended effects and the best way to do that is to really look at how the top tier plays and why the middle and lower tier are struggling in the first place. In MvC3's case freedom of movement and combo/reset elasticity is so high that the top tier aren't going to sweat a combo break at all, rather they'll benefit from being able to save themselves that SOLE time they do get touched. This is why I tend to be more of an advocate for individual buffs to mids and low tiers.
I can't stand it and eventually lose control.
They should probably do the tutorials like three times and try lobbies. All the newbies just love walking right into the grinder that is QM that even high level players on IRC aren't fond of lol.
Speaking of QM reminds me of an idea that only struck me last night. We need a fighting game that offers a "salty runback" player match right after a ranked match. QM salt is the worst. I imagine the person who won turning down my salty request and it makes my blood boil just thinking about it lol.
Rawr Its Ry
Member
mike and du was really fun
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Just checked it out. A lot more tame than what happened when news of Elphelt came out.
Apparently there's going to be footage of Johnny and Jack-O in action on Friday?
Karsticles
Member
Salty Runback feature:
1) Only loser can propose it.
2) If the winner declines, the Ranked points gained are lost.
3) If the winner accepts and loses, no overall point change.
4) If the winner accepts and wins, the loser loses 4x the original point value.
Stuff moves fast, but the match doesn't. Like...Ryu wants to stand and throw fireballs at a certain range. So his opponent jumps over them, or FADCs them. No real overall change except the screen positioning due to footsie threats. It's a pretty slow gameplay environment.
I have massive respect for Zangief players that have the patience to go an entire tournament against stuff like Fei Long. I would have to scream at some point.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Marvel's not supposed to be balanced
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Anyone want to play GGXrd?
I'm in the mood to get dumpstered.
I'm in the mood to get dumpstered.
well the person still lost his other 2 characters so i don't think they should just be able to use assists freely while they are gone. i think there needs to be some penalty. maybe have it cost meter instead.
Karsticles
Member
That's why it's a small comeback mechanic - the player is down two characters. They get assists, and those assists aren't "vulnerable" like others in the sense that health can be lost. However, the assist can still get hit. Maybe the assist can get "KO"d on a 5 second timer if it gets hit. Then you want to be careful about using the assist properly, but you aren't crippled. Haggar would have someone else from Final Fight appear on the screen and throw a barrel on the screen - hit the guy throwing the barrel to cancel the assist like normal. These assists would have to be slightly more tame compared to standard assists, too. More like Ryu's Hadoken than Doom's Plasma Beam.
I think that would work fine.
Had a good set against GB earlier. He was working on counter poking me a lot which lead to an idea I had. Instead of doing an MP or HP I'd do a jab first and if I saw him stick something out, I'd go right in to MPxxHP. It's the first time I've really successfully whiff punished anything on purpose, albeit still around just a bait. I feel like this isn't quite on the proper whiff punishing level that I want to eventually get to, but it was interesting to see how that gameplay evolved. After doing that a couple times, I started to mix it up by walking forward more and doing nothing to test what would happen or just do a long ranged poke like HK instead of the jab to see if I could catch some movement while waiting for a punch of some sort.
Everything else I did was pretty low level in terms of damage and execution but I'm feeling really good about that experience.
Everything else I did was pretty low level in terms of damage and execution but I'm feeling really good about that experience.
I'm pretty sure this is exactly how Skullgirls works... and it's kind of annoying? Basically, there's zero downtime the entire match, and it can just get exasperating. It's like every character is MvC2 Magneto, except now their combos are also 5x the length.
Why would the loser ever submit that? They have nothing to gain (other than their pride) and a lot to lose. The winner doesn't gain anything either.
The most insidious salty runback feature has to be Tekken 7's (in the arcade, anyway). When you lose to someone online, you can run it back immediately... at double the credit cost.
commanderpepper
Member
I was thinking of the gauge building while taking damage but I look your idea way more. A dynamic burst gauge would be cool to play with.
sounds good but it would be better if it was a character from that characters universe. if bof gets a character in the new marvel then maybe ryu would get rei as an assist or sf ryu gets dan or somebody as an assist.
I was reading through a GAF insider post history and found this.
Don't know if I would've wanted....
Don't know if I would've wanted....
Shit just got real.
SolarPowered
Member
It's a mix of slow and fast. Specials, supers and mixups are just as fast as any other game and damage can be insane, but the process up until that point is a very slow going affair that no everyone can get into. I love anime, but pretty much every SF looks elegant in comparison to the chaotic pace of anime. VSav and GG are the anime fighters that get closest to SF in the pacing department. The stuff going on in those two games keeps my interest peaked, though.
This is why I called it a player match. Sometimes I just run into someone good enough that I'd like to challenge them again even if I won. Those conditions will make me quit ranked forever lol.
You know my pain ;_;
Idk, I find it slow compared to other fighters, which is why I dropped SF 3-4 years ago to play Marvel. It was the cure I needed to fix the rage I had in me as a Gief player. I'm still iffy on the game but its better now lol
"God's Beard!"
Member
Yeah, I started swapping to 6LP and 6MP which are better at stuffing your pre-emptive pokes but not very good counterpokes like RH is. All that practice with Ken and learning from Juicebox's videos I think made me a better Dudley player.
I was surprised how awkward anti-airing Decapre was at certain distances. Her jump arc makes stFP not as good as I was hoping.
Once I figure out how to stop the dp shortcut from screwing up my counterpokes I'll be a lot happier with dudley.
Lostconfused
Member
Considering there are like no good ones or very few, it should be obvious how true that is.
Frankly, I've started to think that balance doesn't really mean much of anything, outside of extreme examples (so no Ivan Ooze tier characters). Honestly, I would rather have a game that felt good to play with characters that were unique and interesting than having something that was tuned like a swiss watch. I also suspect most people would rather have their character be fun than knowing they're 50-50 against everyone else (although that would imply at least a minimum base level of power, outside of people who enjoy playing intentionally weak characters for some reason).
That and it's easier to tweak a character's damage or other move properties to make them more reasonable than it is to make an unfun, boring character interesting to play.
lol, i hate sakura. i hope i fare better this time
Rice-Eater
Member
When I played him what I remembered the most is that he always correctly tech'd my throw or block my hop kick. The hop kick has 17f of start up, plenty of time for a crouch tech(even a delayed one) to come out. When it kept "guessing" correctly in the first game I remember specifically testing its reactions by going for this a number of times in the 2nd game. Again, I could never land a throw or hop kick.
Of course Toolassisted had perfect execution as well. As for reactions, if you were watching Capcom Pro Talk, Toolassisted punished two back dashes from BJ's Guy. These weren't reads, they were just random back dashes done in neutral. No human can do something like this consistently.
Isn't the reasonable assumption that IF somebody was going to put a burst type mechanic into the game, they wouldn't lazily slap it in but rather redesign aspects of the game so it doesn't lead to those sorts of balance issues but ends up as a net positive (or else why add it)? For example, meter gain and usage can easily be adjusted on a character to character basis. Or were people seriously asking or imagining "UMvC3 as it is now but with bursts!"?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Every character has footsies. Besides, he was using Decapre.
The answer is that you don't put in breakers in Marvel and instead you cut down on combo length severely.
Something like a Storm MVC3 combo is about the acceptable length a combo should be in a Marvel game. It's a small jump loop into air combo, into spike down hyper or it's a ground series into launcher, small fly combo, spike down hyper or LA into LS in the air. It's also the acceptable damage a combo should be doing in these games (reduce 30K damage from Hailstorm because the hyper does too much damage) and the combo/damage she gets off of throw is also acceptable in this game. Combos should be doing around 600K to 700K health with another 150K added from another hyper and that's the maximum. 3 meter should kill a character which is fine but in general 1 combo to severely damage a character ( to force them to switch out) to prime them for a reset and 2 combos to kill is ideal for a 3 character fast paced game.
We don't want a game where you need to land 3 combos on a single character... that just results in long matches and would create higher match up discrepancies. We also don't want easy 1 meter TODs and especially those off of throws or scaled attacks.
When combos are reigned in and the neutral game is the focus of the game, there is no real value for Breakers especially if we are talking in the context of MVC4 where every character should be good on point and should have the tools to play well solo.
Now if say the CEO told the design team that "you have to put combo breakers in Marvel or else we don't fund the project" then here's how I would do it and I don't claim for a second that this would actually work or if it's even "balanced":
*Instinct type mode for all character that replaces XF (let's just called it Infinity mode). Character specific boosts to attributes/mechanics. The boosts aren't nearly as powerful as XF (in terms of damage and speed) but the cancel aspect is there as is chip negation.
*Every character on the team gets one Infinity mode activation so you have 3 of them in a round. However, unused Instinct modes get added as time to the other character. So if one character didn't get to use his Infinity mode, the Instinct mode for the next two characters is buffed. This is to curb the snowball nature of these games.
*Burst is not available until you lose at least one character and can only be used once in a round. It is activated by using the Infinity mode of your character during a combo and you basically forego the buffs from your activation. Burst can be counter bursted with Infinity mode activation from the other player but counter burst is not available to be used on the last character (it also uses up your attributes as if you Bursted). Burst can be reacted to because the Infinity mode activation is like the XF activation where the character poses before doing the burst to reset into neutral and during that freeze pose the other character can input their counter burst.
All of this sounds weird but here's my basis for all of this:
*Not having Burst available for the first character means that players cannot get away with having front loaded teams and use up burst to save up the first character. The first character is always going to be the strongest character on the team by virtue of having two assists.
*The Burst being something you can react to means that it's not a matter of "mind games" but is a matter of long term decision making and resource allocation. It's like when someone XFCs Wolverine's Divekick start of the round, the other Wolverine player can choose to counter XF to save his Wolverine but he can choose not to and let them use up their XF so that his other characters are stronger by default. Same principle here.
*The whole "2nd character can use burst but can be countered but the 3rd character can't be countered" has a very simple philosophy behind it. 2nd character is still not completely gimped as they still have an assist to work with. Having the burst available to them puts them more on a playing field as the first character who has 2 assists, 2 crossover counter possibilities, 2 raw tag possibilities, two DHCs and triple THC options. This also allows them to deal with the first character of the other team as they don't have a burst yet you do (but they can counter break you so you can't just ease up).
3rd character cannot be combo broken NOR can he be counter broken (he is immune to the mechanics). The idea here is obvious... 3rd character is gimped as fuck and being able to combo break him would deny many earned comebacks.
1st character can still counter break so he can snowball off of a very hard read on the 2nd character and then it will be 3 v 1 where he would be heavily favored.
When it's 3rd character vs 3rd character it's a straight up 1v1 SF style fight... absolutely no need for any combo breakers/counter breakers so neither character can combo break each other (and thus no counter breakers). So it will be an "honest" fight.
TL
r version: *Infinity mode replaces XF mode. Each character has one so you have 3 total in a game. Much weaker attributes and unused Infinity mode gets added into the other characters as a time percentage.
*Bursts have the following rules:
*Can only be used once (once by either the 2nd or 3rd remaining character). Same for Counter Breakers.
*1st character can Counter break but not Combo break. Can be combo broken and counter broken by either 2nd or 3rd character on the opposite team.
*2nd character can combo break and counter break except against the 3rd character on the team. Can be combo broken and counter broken by the 2nd and 3rd character of the opposite team.
*3rd character can combo break and counter break except on the opposite 3rd character (who basically has combo break immunity). Can counter break the 2nd character.
Basically this version of the system is tailored towards the team structure of game. It prevents players from playing in a front loaded fashion while also limiting ways that players can deny comebacks. It also prevents the snowball aspect of the game by providing the 2nd character with a chance to combo break and the 3rd character a guaranteed combo break if one hasn't been used already. This also creates an interesting decision making when there's 2v2 because you can either save up the guaranteed combo break for the 3rd character or use it up against early if you see your opponent has used up their Infinity mode for that character earlier (like say they used up Infinity mode on their point character to kill your point character).
You can also save up all of your Infinity mode for your final character to mount a comeback but it's not as powerful as XF and of course you would be giving up a valuable combo break. But it's a choice to go on the offensive (use up a powerful Infinity mode) or save for a combo break.
The core concept behind this whole system is that the combo breaker aspect should scale with the team losses. It's sort of like how the Wager system is only available on the 2nd life bar in Injustice but more indepth and more back and forth.
SolarPowered
Member
Understatement of the year. I've followed SG somewhat closely and I thought Mike Z would lose his mind. Intensely following the dev process on a truly balanced fighting game (what is there besides VSav and SG?) would open some eyes widely.
So, your mind was made up from the beginning of the conversation.
https://twitter.com/MarkMan23/status/605896567673921536
edit: Onemic: you can play my decapre if you'd prefer!
Mark Julio (マークマン
‏@MarkMan23
NeoGAF FG Thread really reaching with this MVC4 hope lol.
edit: Onemic: you can play my decapre if you'd prefer!
DryEyeRelief
Member
wow that site is blocked huh
I figure I'd post in here as well as the B/S/T thread.
I'm selling a PS4 Hori v4 Hayabusa Arcade stick. Like new. Only flaw is the cord is slightly damaged, but the stick itself works 100% fine. You can duct tape with black tape on the damaged area to cover up the "flaw".
Asking price $180.00 (shipping not included). Image below is not my stick, but an image of it for reference.
I'm selling a PS4 Hori v4 Hayabusa Arcade stick. Like new. Only flaw is the cord is slightly damaged, but the stick itself works 100% fine. You can duct tape with black tape on the damaged area to cover up the "flaw".
Asking price $180.00 (shipping not included). Image below is not my stick, but an image of it for reference.
Dekappa or MaKappa, It's a lose lose situation
I say I play your DeKappa on PS4.
aight, bruh, lets go.
Karsticles
Member
Salt drives everything, my man! People would select the option because e-dick > all for most people.
Skullgirls is different - IPS (Infinite Prevention System) exists because, IMHO, MikeZ got tired of trying to balance the combo system. It was made way after the game released. No matter how MikeZ tinkered with the combo system, certain characters (*COUGH* PAINWHEEL *COUGH*) has combos that did ridiculous damage and went on forever. IPS literally exists because the game had too much that was broken, and this was an easy bandaid. I wouldn't say that Skullgirls is designed around IPS, but rather that IPS was created to fix some of Skullgirls' problems. It is an ineligant solution in its current form.
Skullgirls isn't reset based because of IPS, either - it has always been reset-based, because the amount of meter your opponent gains from being hit increases over the duration of a combo (maybe SolarPowered can give a more thorough explanation on this). At the same time, your own damage decay is making your combo do less damage, so you're doing less damage as time goes on while your opponent builds more meter - that's not a good situation to be in. This encourages people to go for resets, because it lets them do more damage while also limiting opponent meter gain. You don't want to feed your opponent 5 bars off of one character kill!
Thanks!
Oh, fo sho.
There would still be a normal "request rematch" option, but folks could back out of that if they felt like it. This would be a special "you did NOT deserve that win" option. ;-)It's a mix of slow and fast. Specials, supers and mixups are just as fast as any other game and damage can be insane, but the process up until that point is a very slow going affair that no everyone can get into. I love anime, but pretty much every SF looks elegant in comparison to the chaotic pace of anime. VSav and GG are the anime fighters that get closest to SF in the pacing department. The stuff going on in those two games keeps my interest peaked, though.
This is why I called it a player match. Sometimes I just run into someone good enough that I'd like to challenge them again even if I won. Those conditions will make me quit ranked forever lol.
At the same time, MikeZ has done a better job than an entire Capcom team.
I don't doubt that it's crazy hard to do this stuff, but, that doesn't mean we can't reflect on the decisions that were made. It's like anything else. I don't have any musical talent, but I still know that Trent Reznor says "You are the perfect drug" way too many times in that song, and it hurts the flow. I know this because I may not be a musician, but I am someone who listens to and appreciates music. I may not be a game developer, but I am perfectly capable of reflecting on game balance and recognizing that some ideas are not as good as others.
How does the tool help the player, exactly? Does the tool flash something like "BLOCK HIGH!", and the player does it? I am really clueless about this.
Hahaha.
be gentle with me ;_;
my hands are fucking up after my set with vulva today so im a no go for a couple days
At the same time, MikeZ has done a better job than an entire Capcom team.
Now he just needs to make a game people play
i mean if they're stating "what if they put a burst and also the entire game is tuned around it" it more or less misses the point because it just becomes a full on patch wishlist instead of being a thought experiment
it's far enough into the fantasy zone as to where it wouldn't provide wildly productive or interesting discussion on the actual game itself (vs straight wishlisting)
"God's Beard!"
Member
That Dude John
Member
Purely out of curiosity, would this theoretical XF-Instinct hybrid be a one-off with three degrees of power like original XF?
What I'm imagining(I'm not considering balance whatsoever) is as follows(using mah boi Dante as an example):
If I were to give Dante an "instinct", it would involve opening up his combos even further. Let's call it "Crazy Combos"
So, CC Level 1(No dead characters): All special moves become cancelable into each other(going straight from Revolver intto Hammer, for example.)
Level 2(One dead character): Dante can wall and ground bounce more than once in a single combo.
Level 3(Two Dead characters): Hit Stun decay reduced significantly to allow extended solo combos.
That's the sort of thing I'm thinking.
Damn iPhone.
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