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[sf2fanatic]

Thank you all for the responses. I checked out the first part of the 3x3 and notice how Birdie's drink can was used for offense. I liked that.

 

[Karsticles]

Mostly unrelated, but I remember loving MvC2 in early high school, and one of the aides at my school told me that I needed to add Captain Commando to my team. So I did. On point.

Nah, Casuals won't notice much. That's what target combos are for.

"Ugh, why do I have to push so many buttons?"

I wish Oni's Target Combo 2 worked consistently.

You know, chun's not wearing any kind of restraint and she's a pretty busty girl. It would be weird if they didn't really jiggle much.

Spoiler

Just not like that lol

Paging Dahbomb for a dissertation.

3 frame is a big difference for casuals.

That's the difference between "I can never do this" and "I can do this sometimes".

Is that a meaningful difference for their experience? Are casuals happier with something they can do sometimes?

 

[Skilletor]

I can barely even tell what's a 1 Frame or 3 frame. I just do stuff.


What's an example of a 1 Frame link for Ryu?

 

[Karsticles]

I can barely even tell what's a 1 Frame or 3 frame. I just do stuff.


What's an example of a 1 Frame link for Ryu?

No clue. Youtube search of "SFIV 1 frame link" came up with a video of a guy saying he was doing 1 frame links by chaining normals into SRKs with counter hits on.

 

[Juicebox_FGC]

1-frame links with Ryu:

crLP to crHP
crLP to crMK
crMP to crMP
crMP to close HP
crMP to crHK

 

[Sayad]

I don't know if it will. For enthusiasts like the folks in this thread, 1F to 3F is a world of difference. To the casual gamer, is it all that different? I wonder.

I think it is a big deal for casuals, with 2 frames buffer you can mash your way through a lot of links.

 

[petghost]

I do worry about the game not being deep enough, though. Losing a neutral option is a pretty big deal.

im curious as to what your concerns are in this regard. i can def see things like the combo system possibly being less open than 4 but nothing else really comes to mind.

 

[zlatko]

FGW| 70-20 Right Down The Middle

LMFAO so hard at Excellent Adventures.

 

[Karsticles]

im curious as to what your concerns are in this regard. i can def see things like the combo system possibly being less open than 4 but nothing else really comes to mind.

I don't think focus is a great game mechanic, but it added something to the neutral that you constantly had to consider - your attack getting focused and countered. It added a significant degree of depth to the game, and nothing is replacing it. It's worth asking:
1) How much deeper is this game than SFII, if at all?
2) How happy would we be playing a game of SFII depth today?

 

[zlatko]

Also, Love Aris, but I imagine sitting next to him he'd smell like a baked potato covered in hot nut sweat.

 

[Skilletor]

1-frame links with Ryu:

crLP to crHP
crLP to crMK
crMP to crMP
crMP to close HP
crMP to crHK

Damn, really? I can do all of those easily and consistently.

Crazy.

 

[jerry1594]

Re-watching the matches, and the boob jiggle glitch happens with Cammy, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYyhPk4b8cE

At 2:25 there is the K-Brad vs. PR Balrog Cammy mirror. P1 Cammy has no jiggle, P2 Cammy has jiggle.

Edit: Woah, white leotard Cammy has red eyes. Cool.

Edit x2: LOL, that awkward silence at 2:55. I forgot that was during this match.


Bison is still charge-based. They just took charge inputs from Nash because he isn't supposed to play like Guile. More like Adon with a fireball.

Bison has less charge moves though doesnt he?

 

[Onemic]

Is that a meaningful difference for their experience? Are casuals happier with something they can do sometimes?

Something I can do sometimes and eventually get better at vs something that feels next to impossible? I'll take sometimes.

Do some of you guys not remember how it was when you first started learning FG's? 1 frame links vs 3 frame links felt like a world of difference to me when I first started

 

[QisTopTier]

V-Skill system > Focus attacks

 

[kasane]

i like fadc tho :<

 

[Skilletor]

V-Skill system > Focus attacks

Fact.

 

[Sayad]

V-Skill system > Focus attacks

Yep.

Also, Love Aris, but I imagine sitting next to him he'd smell like a baked potato covered in hot nut sweat.

WTF. lol.

 

[Flying High]

Here is basically everyone's reaction to the Sony E3 2015 Press Conference(UMVC3 Version): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6ABsKOtuVc

 

[Dahbomb]

Is that a meaningful difference for their experience? Are casuals happier with something they can do sometimes?

Of course they are. Especially in SF4 where there are trials that have you doing a bunch of 1 frame links with Ryu. That's the first thing casuals attempt to do.

I have seen casuals try to do stuff like cr.MP, cr.MP, cr.HK with Ryu. That combo is VERY easy in Omega mode with the buffer but it's tough without one (not the hardest one frame link though, it at least has a good rhythm to it). Most people give up on the character or the game if they can't do that so if you can do it easily or within a few times of trying then you are more likely to go on to the next challenge.

 

[NEO0MJ]

You're running all over the place, Sayad

 

[Shackzam]

Also, Love Aris, but I imagine sitting next to him he'd smell like a baked potato covered in hot nut sweat.

Nah, he's a clean person for the most part. Was just a dude with regular hygiene. At least when I talked to him at combo breaker.

 

[Karsticles]

What's the Omega buffer?

Bison has less charge moves though doesnt he?

IDK. Knee Press is charge, what's the...floaty air attack he does?

Something I can do sometimes and eventually get better at vs something that feels next to impossible? I'll take sometimes.

Do some of you guys not remember how it was when you first started learning FG's? 1 frame links vs 3 frame links felt like a world of difference to me when I first started

I still can't do links for crap, so I don't know. When I played Oni, I practiced c.LP, b.MP, HCF.LP for days and still couldn't get that first link down more than 50% of the time.

V-Skill system > Focus attacks

Yeah, but it doesn't replace the depth lost in the neutral, which is my point.

 

[Onemic]

Of course they are. Especially in SF4 where there are trials that have you doing a bunch of 1 frame links with Ryu. That's the first thing casuals attempt to do.

I have seen casuals try to do stuff like cr.MP, cr.MP, cr.HK with Ryu. That combo is VERY easy in Omega mode with the buffer but it's tough without one (not the hardest one frame link though, it at least has a good rhythm to it). Most people give up on the character or the game if they can't do that so if you can do it easily or within a few times of trying then you are more likely to go on to the next challenge.

Dont even remind me about Ryu's trials. First thing I tried when I wanted to learn SF4. I think I was doing c.mp, c.mp, c.hk for over an hour before giving up and thinking it was literally impossible to do and the game was just tricking me.

 

[Rhapsody]

Yeah, but it doesn't replace the depth lost in the neutral, which is my point.

Wait... huh? I'm confused.

 

[kirblar]

Omega was 3f, I believe.

 

[Karsticles]

Wait... huh? I'm confused.

Depth = the number of things you have to consider in any given moment. Focus was one more thing to consider at any moment in the neutral. Now you don't, hence a loss of depth.

 

[Onemic]

Depth = the number of things you have to consider in any given moment. Focus was one more thing to consider at any moment in the neutral. Now you don't, hence a loss of depth.

Now you have to consider each characters unique V-skill

 

[Rhapsody]

Depth = the number of things you have to consider in any given moment. Focus was one more thing to consider at any moment in the neutral. Now you don't, hence a loss of depth.

Old school players are happy that Focus is gone because it eliminated part of the neutral/footsie game.

You hear a lot of "no more playing footsies with 2 buttons" from players like Valle and stuff.

I really did not like any of the focus stuff.

 

[zlatko]

Of course they are. Especially in SF4 where there are trials that have you doing a bunch of 1 frame links with Ryu. That's the first thing casuals attempt to do.

I have seen casuals try to do stuff like cr.MP, cr.MP, cr.HK with Ryu. That combo is VERY easy in Omega mode with the buffer but it's tough without one (not the hardest one frame link though, it at least has a good rhythm to it). Most people give up on the character or the game if they can't do that so if you can do it easily or within a few times of trying then you are more likely to go on to the next challenge.

I flat out could never unlock the full potential of SF4 without 1 frame links. My favorite character in the game, Abel, relies heavily on his entire footsie game being around step kick dash 1 frame link monkey shit.

SF5 right now is the game, on paper, I've been asking for from a fighting game developer forever.

If it plays how it sounds and I imagine I'm going to not give two shits about another fighter for 5+ years easily.

I just hope we get MORE out of it. I feel like while a focus on story is great to bring in casuals, and a beta for online net code is fantastic, certain things may be overlooked. Things like personalized intros for each match up like MKX does, "faction battle" kind of events/towers from MKX are a great idea that can carry over to SF as well, etc.

I hope the game just goes well and beyond and copies from what is out there now. By no means will it be a game breaker if it doesn't, but it means they didn't push the envelope enough.

So far they have:

Best visuals
Great mechanics
Beta

These 3 things are a fantastic start to me. If the beta delivers netcode wise(Killer Instinct levels of good) then I'm all set for the long haul for the game.

 

[Sayad]

You're running all over the place, Sayad

I'm trying to stay awake as long as possible today, don't want to wake up before 6pm when I finally sleep. >_<

 

[enzo_gt]

Depth = the number of things you have to consider in any given moment. Focus was one more thing to consider at any moment in the neutral. Now you don't, hence a loss of depth.

So V-Skills (also individualized as opposed to core mechanics) don't count?

And V-Reversals do not either?

 

[Karsticles]

Just to be clear, I am not wishing focus attacks stuck around. I hated them.

Now you have to consider each characters unique V-skill

Not the same.

Old school players are happy that Focus is gone because it eliminated part of the neutral/footsie game.

You hear a lot of "no more playing footsies with 2 buttons" from players like Valle and stuff.

I really did not like any of the focus stuff.

I share your opinion.

So V-Skills (also individualized as opposed to core mechanics) don't count?

And V-Reversals do not either?

These things are limited and cost meter, and/or they aren't universal footsie tools that apply in every given moment of the game. Most of them are specialized tools for particular circumstances.

 

[zlatko]

Old school players are happy that Focus is gone because it eliminated part of the neutral/footsie game.

You hear a lot of "no more playing footsies with 2 buttons" from players like Valle and stuff.

I really did not like any of the focus stuff.

Meh. I think that's a cop out. Focus if anything was like another normal in the neutral game with a hit of armor.

You had to keep in mind if you saw someone start one up "how fast does it come out, how far does it reach" which are just normal footsie mechanics.

Focus attacks = good mechanic. FADC = stupid mechanic. To me anyway. I never did supers it was almost like that bar was specifically for EX and cancel to extend or make things safe.

The character who saw the most super use was Yun, and even then it was probably like 10-15% more used than anyone else in the cast.

 

[Rean]

What does Birdie's V trigger do? I couldn't really tell from earlier.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think Omega is 2 frame buffer so 1 frame links ends up being like 3 frame links.

Whatever it is, it makes doing links pretty easy.

 

[Onemic]

Not the same.


I share your opinion.


These things are limited and cost meter, and/or they aren't universal footsie tools that apply in every given moment of the game. Most of them are specialized tools for particular circumstances.

Vskills do not cost meter

 

[Sigmaah]

If I don't gotta worry bout lame links omfg sf5 ima play you even more.

Bouta cop a stick before this beta too, that's when I take vacation from work let's get it.

 

[Rhapsody]

Meh. I think that's a cop out. Focus if anything was like another normal in the neutral game with a hit of armor.

You had to keep in mind if you saw someone start one up "how fast does it come out, how far does it reach" which are just normal footsie mechanics.

Focus attacks = good mechanic. FADC = stupid mechanic. To me anyway. I never did supers it was almost like that bar was specifically for EX and cancel to extend or make things safe.

The character who saw the most super use was Yun, and even then it was probably like 10-15% more used than anyone else in the cast.

Footsies is a lot about let me weave in and out of my opponent's range. You had proximity blocking which means you can't just walk out and let the focus whiff easily. It adds something to the game, but just takes out quite so much. You can choose to throw/kara throw it or armor break I suppose. But if your tools aren't really allowing for that, you both just try to reset back to neutral by backdashing or something. It just didn't add anything I liked to SF.

 

[QisTopTier]

V-Skill is basically a super basic version of Drive from Blazblue

and V-Trigger = Overdrive

Spoiler

and Overdrive is just Dark Force

 

[Karsticles]

Maybe try approaching it this way:
Despite the shortcomings of focus, many of SFIV's hypest moments are caused by it. Throwing out a focus to bait an opponent, or to counter a potential poke, or to get in, were key parts of the SFIV neutral. An enormous portion of SFIV's footsie mindgames were centered around this move. It also made matchups more palettable due to improved universal options. Consider matchups like Zangief vs. Sagat and Blanka vs. Vega, and think about them without focus attack. They change a lot.

Basically, with the loss of focus mindgames, I wonder if the game might become too simple and boring too soon.

Vskills do not cost meter

Hence the "or".

 

[Rhapsody]

V-Skill is basically a super basic version of Drive from Blazblue

and V-Trigger = Overdrive

Spoiler

and Overdrive is just Dark Force

You just used two examples that would confuse FGW even further since barely anyone plays those games, haha.

 

[Dahbomb]

Maybe try approaching it this way:
Despite the shortcomings of focus, many of SFIV's hypest moments are caused by it. Throwing out a focus to bait an opponent, or to counter a potential poke, or to get in, were key parts of the SFIV neutral. An enormous portion of SFIV's footsie mindgames were centered around this move. It also made matchups more palettable due to improved universal options. Consider matchups like Zangief vs. Sagat and Blanka vs. Vega, and think about them without focus attack. They change a lot.

Basically, with the loss of focus mindgames, I wonder if the game might become too simple and boring too soon.

That's like saying despite the shortcomings of X Factor, many of MVC3's hypest moments are caused by it.

 

[enzo_gt]

These things are limited and cost meter, and/or they aren't universal footsie tools that apply in every given moment of the game. Most of them are specialized tools for particular circumstances.

V-Skills do not cost anything.

Your criteria is kind of selectively inclusionary. Do focus attacks apply full screen? Perhaps, but only when there is a projectile or imminent full screen attack; a particular circumstance. Or is that a universal tool? Is a differently arced jump as a V-Skill something for universal purpose or circumstantial? I would argue that's more universally applicable than a focus attack, and other V-Skills, like projectiles, are applicable in just as many circumstances as focus attacks.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Basically, with the loss of focus mindgames, I wonder if the game might become too simple and boring too soon.
.

People still play ST, though.

 

[WesternHeretic]

Maybe try approaching it this way:
Despite the shortcomings of focus, many of SFIV's hypest moments are caused by it. Throwing out a focus to bait an opponent, or to counter a potential poke, or to get in, were key parts of the SFIV neutral. An enormous portion of SFIV's footsie mindgames were centered around this move. It also made matchups more palettable due to improved universal options. Consider matchups like Zangief vs. Sagat and Blanka vs. Vega, and think about them without focus attack. They change a lot.

Basically, with the loss of focus mindgames, I wonder if the game might become too simple and boring too soon.


Hence the "or".

Nah they just have to throw some stupid explosion and animation along with DLC color packs to keep these new generation of kids entertain.

 

[petghost]

Someone should go back to vsav and make dark forces actually useful beyond some invulnerable frames.

 

[Rhapsody]

Someone should go back to vsav and make dark forces actually useful beyond some invulnerable frames.

They make for some cool combo videos at least.

Edit: I remember that one really good Jedah player (that would OCV teams) would use it in matches a lot. Was glorious.

 

[zlatko]

Maybe try approaching it this way:
Despite the shortcomings of focus, many of SFIV's hypest moments are caused by it. Throwing out a focus to bait an opponent, or to counter a potential poke, or to get in, were key parts of the SFIV neutral. An enormous portion of SFIV's footsie mindgames were centered around this move. It also made matchups more palettable due to improved universal options. Consider matchups like Zangief vs. Sagat and Blanka vs. Vega, and think about them without focus attack. They change a lot.

Basically, with the loss of focus mindgames, I wonder if the game might become too simple and boring too soon.


Hence the "or".

It depends on how each character will play and what makes them tick.

Ryu is a perfect example of a character, thanks to parry, who will never be too simple if you want to take him to the next level as more of the cast comes out.

Hopefully some more unique V-Skills come out that are on that sort of level. I think James Chen didn't want to full on say but he's thinking "Why the fuck is Cammy's V-skill the back spin knuckle? You couldn't come up with anything better?"

 

[Karsticles]

That's like saying despite the shortcomings of X Factor, many of MVC3's hypest moments are caused by it.

Focus attacks are still hype today. X-Factor is a hype killer now that it has been fullly explored. Focus attacks are controversial, but undoubtedly add depth. X-Factor removes a lot of depth, and the poorness of its mechanic is not strongly debated.

V-Skills do not cost anything.

Your criteria is kind of selectively inclusionary. Do focus attacks apply full screen? Perhaps, but only when there is a projectile or imminent full screen attack; a particular circumstance. Or is that a universal tool? Is a differently arced jump as a V-Skill something for universal purpose or circumstantial? I would argue that's more universally applicable than a focus attack, and other V-Skills, like projectiles, are applicable in just as many circumstances as focus attacks.

I started the conversation within the context of footsies. Focus attacks always apply to footsies.

Nah they just have to throw some stupid explosion and animation along with DLC color packs to keep these new generation of kids entertain.

I am talking about competitors.

They make for some cool combo videos at least.

Edit: I remember that one really good Jedah player (that would OCV teams) would use it in matches a lot. Was glorious.

Link!

It depends on how each character will play and what makes them tick.

Ryu is a perfect example of a character, thanks to parry, who will never be too simple if you want to take him to the next level as more of the cast comes out.

Hopefully some more unique V-Skills come out that are on that sort of level. I think James Chen didn't want to full on say but he's thinking "Why the fuck is Cammy's V-skill the back spin knuckle? You couldn't come up with anything better?"

Parries add complexity, but not depth.

V-Skills build V-meter, right? Seems like a good choice for Cammy, then. It needs to be a good skill, but not the best one. You couldn't put it on her dive kick, for example.

By the way, it seemed like her dive kick never led to combos. Anyone else notice that?

 

[mbpm1]

By the way, it seemed like her dive kick never led to combos. Anyone else notice that?

Definitely looks like it 's less advantaged. She was getting hit out of blocked ex for example.