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[Tripon]

Smash has the same commands for each character. Now, the movesets are entirely different, but having the command be direction + button is way easier than quarter circle + button, or charge one second back then forward + button, half circles, or even full circles + buttons.

Also, I fully expect Smash 5 to gut the roster if only because if and when it comes about, they likely will follow the KI/SFV release model of few fighters at the beginning, then add via DLC.

 

[mbpm1]

Whatever. I don't care if how many characters there are. Just make it so that you can't make specials safe on block because you've got meter.

Ex Fireballs =P

 

[KidA Seven]

Yeah, we all know how Smash is being held back by how massive the roster is. Marvel could barely handle its 38 playable characters at launch, especially when you had to learn three mains at once. Remember when people almost dropped the game because the options were just so overwhelming?

Total nonsense.

For newer players having to learn a lot of matchups is very frustrating. You have to think about the game when it's old, not when it's new. If they plan to release 4-5 characters every year to support the game, the original number of characters at launch does matter. It's all about when the game will finish.

This is something that has been said a lot by a lot of community members. Learning a lot of matchups must be hell for new players. It's not that difficult if you have been playing since launch.

 

[Sayad]

If SFV if getting only as much in publisher resources as KI, that would be a shame.

You'd think SF would be worthy of being more in line with better selling more popular titles filled with content, but I guess not.

What does that even mean?! Yes SFV is getting more resources than KI which is why it's launching with more content!

 

[sf2fanatic]

They should force everyone to only use one character at launch ala SF 1. Or 8 like SF 2.

 

[Anne]

This has actually been pretty frustrating to me lately :< locally everybody just plays Xrd, telling me I should play it, then some of the same people tell me the game is dumb and has lots of problems.

Meanwhile I'm proficient in like 3/4 other games just sitting alone on my set up in a corner not going anywhere.

I'm really close to not showing up anymore, but I know that would just make things worse and I should at least try and blah blah.

 

[mbpm1]

They should force everyone to only use one character at launch ala SF 1. Or 8 like SF 2.

Ryu Only
No Specials
China Stage

 

[Uraizen]

A parry that takes meter. A parry that can't be used at any time. Quite different. That's more of a counter, and it's still tied to meter.

Yeah, but it always seems to be a controversial subject either way. I imagine if it takes one bar of meter to parry a single hit then nobody would care, so you're probably right. So far I'm liking what I've read, but I need more info and want to see all of this in action.

 

[ShinMaruku]

It's not helpful to put smash in the same bucket as a traditional fighting game to say that it's large roster was not a detriment, perhaps there are other systems in the game that overcome that issue since it was made from an outside viewpoint.

 

[Skilletor]

Ex Fireballs =P

You know what I mean. ;P

Yeah, but it always seems to be a controversial subject either way. I imagine if it takes one bar of meter to parry a single hit then nobody would care, so you're probably right. So far I'm liking what I've read, but I need more info and want to see all of this in action.

Only because of how they work in SF3. I would give zero fucks about parries if they took meter to use in SF3.

 

[Karsticles]

Smash is an outlier and we all know it is. Probably due to the fact that the development did not look to make it overly competitive and focused on a fun experience for all who play it which makes it have a much larger casual base where a larger competetive scene will organically grow from.

Explain why so much people did not go into Tekken tag and why it's hard to get into. Learn 2 characters learn 50+ match ups that's information overload to beginners.

Sakurai says this, but the game has already gotten 3 balance patches based on competitive feedback, and the game is competitively strong.

Look at how finely tuned the game has to be for these combos to exist:

https://youtu.be/V7QSt7wpI8A

People didn't go into TTT2 because people just didn't want to play the game. For one reason or another, it didn't appeal to people. I don't think we can fairly assume that it is due to the title being overwhelming.

This has actually been pretty frustrating to me lately :< locally everybody just plays Xrd, telling me I should play it, then some of the same people tell me the game is dumb and has lots of problems.

Meanwhile I'm proficient in like 3/4 other games just sitting alone on my set up in a corner not going anywhere.

I'm really close to not showing up anymore, but I know that would just make things worse and I should at least try and blah blah.

I sit down wherever there is room. I don't care what the game is, unless it is really old and uninteresting to me. Two weeks ago there was room at the MK station, so I sat down and started playing. Don't know or care what the inputs are, I just want to play and learn. I would sit with you, Anne! You could teach me all kinds of anime.

 

[ShinMaruku]

People react violently to change.
It should not be a surprise to anybody that most people are full of shit about their complaints. It's something we have not evolved out of yet.

 

[Tripon]

Has it been confirmed that EX moves are back?

 

[KidA Seven]

But does he main her now? The valid players all play a very narrow band of characters outside of insane people like Momochi and Infiltration. So a small pool means jack shit.


Smash is an outlier and we all know it is. Probably due to the fact that the development did not look to make it overly competitive and focused on a fun experience for all who play it which makes it have a much larger casual base where a larger competetive scene will organically grow from.

Explain why so much people did not go into Tekken tag and why it's hard to get into. Learn 2 characters learn 50+ match ups that's information overload to beginners.

Since 2015 characters that have won a major:
Evil Ryu
Ken
Gen
Viper
Rose
Sagat
Decapre
Seth
Rolento
Yang
Rufus
Guile

Extra characters that have gotten top 2 at a major:
Yun
Adon
Akuma
Elena
Blanka
T.Hawk
Gief
Chun Li

Extra characters that have gotten top 3 at a major:
Blanka
Abel
Hugo
Cammy

USF4 isn't really the game to complain about lack of variety.

 

[Skab]

Has it been confirmed that EX moves are back?

Yes. We've seen/known about them from the start.

 

[Crocodile]

I haven't read every post in the SFV threads, but I'd like to see the receipts on people asking for 50 characters, because right now it sounds like an exaggeration/strawman on your part for the completely legitimate concern as to why the first release of a hugely popular fighting game series with console maker backing can't have the same number of characters as in the first release of its competitor.

Yes I am engaging in a bit of hyperbole but I feel my general point stands. Some posters are just genuinely curious as to what is going on. However I can already see snark from voices who should either know better or at least take a bit of time to put more thought into their replies. We all know Capcom, even with some Sony money, can't compete in resources with NRS who are backed by Warner Bros.We know roster fluctuation is common between entries in fighting game series and its not uncommon, if not the norm, to lose total characters between the last revision of one entry and the first revision of the next entry. I would hope after thread after thread on the subject people would have a better appreciation of how hard/expensive it is to make fighting game characters (mechanics, new engine, balance, models, etc.). I would hope people would know that though getting more characters for your money is better, Game A with roster size X isn't strictly better than Game B with roster size Y even if X > Y. Or that a 16 person starting roster, while certainly not on the large side, is within acceptable historical precedent for the genre and the Street Fighter series.

Like I totally get, "I want more for my money" as a sentiment but there are a whole lot of factors here that a lot of people won't consider or don't know and that's a shame.

 

[Slamtastic]

They keep playing it because everyone else they know keep playing it. It's a vicious cycle.

This. When I finally decided to try and move on to other games, I basically sealed my fate as being the grumpy person training moding on a set up by themselves.

Same thing is happening with Xrd tbh.

This has actually been pretty frustrating to me lately :< locally everybody just plays Xrd, telling me I should play it, then some of the same people tell me the game is dumb and has lots of problems.

Meanwhile I'm proficient in like 3/4 other games just sitting alone on my set up in a corner not going anywhere.

I'm really close to not showing up anymore, but I know that would just make things worse and I should at least try and blah blah.

Game popularity is a factor that you eventually have to confront and choose being a mocked niche or a cool kid.

As long as there exists the flawed concept of a mythical "FGC" (in reality a collection of separate communities often outright hostile to each other) exists, big games are hard to ignore completely.

Which is why I truly hope SFV appeals to me. Why until proven otherwise and my hopes crushed, I hold out hope that various parts of the game will be in the ways I want, because brands are powerful and I'd prefer to have positive regard for the defacto #1 game in the "scene", because it's hard or impossible to ignore the biggest game when in streams, at events, or on sites dedicated to the broad lumping together of "fighting games". After accepting the inevitability of V's top dog status, there is only the concern of saving my blood pressure by hoping that the game earns that spot in my eyes. There will be no escaping the positive regard for it, and the discussions of what happened in events for it, or the people asking when it will be on next, so I'd prefer to be on the "winning team" this time, since that might be easier to achieve than trying to change the way enthusiasts of one fighting game talk about other games in the genre.

 

[Beckx]

Not that I agree, but pretty much anything with Smash does not apply to other fighting games. Both are also huge fanservice-driven games in appeal and design, and at some point suffer from dead weight in the cast, be it from lacking appropriate balancing initially or after-the-fact.

not to mention every smash character's moves are input the same way. You know how they all will work (read: how they are executed), so you just jump in and start experimenting. Gundam EXVS is essentially the same; A, B, C, A+B, A+C, B+C, with modifications for directional input. You get massive variance by suit in what happens when you push the button, but the starting point is the same. So 100 suits isn't daunting.

I find huge move lists to be soul-crushing. Every time I start VF I just look at the move list, say "nope" and fire up something else.

 

[Krackatoa]

This has actually been pretty frustrating to me lately :< locally everybody just plays Xrd, telling me I should play it, then some of the same people tell me the game is dumb and has lots of problems.

Meanwhile I'm proficient in like 3/4 other games just sitting alone on my set up in a corner not going anywhere.

I'm really close to not showing up anymore, but I know that would just make things worse and I should at least try and blah blah.

Xrd is good. O:

I think a lot of people sore on Xrd just miss certain +R mechanics, and some might not enjoy what YRCs do to neutral.

Also, thanks to Juicebox_FGC for all the Yata coverage yesterday. Was good.

My solution is just play everything. I've learned a lot over the past few years.

 

[Nyoro SF]

SF4 has more oki than most "anime" games
Once I realized that was the source of my salt, I dropped it last year.

 

[BadWolf]

I find huge move lists to be soul-crushing. Every time I start VF I just look at the move list, say "nope" and fire up something else.

Then you are doing it wrong, you don't need all that.

Just look up the essentials online (5-10 moves that people favor the most for your character) and that should be more than enough to get you started.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Since 2015 characters that have won a major:
Evil Ryu
Ken
Gen
Viper
Rose
Sagat
Decapre
Seth
Rolento
Yang
Rufus
Guile

Extra characters that have gotten top 2 at a major:
Yun
Adon
Akuma
Elena
Blanka
T.Hawk
Gief
Chun Li

USF4 isn't really the game to complain about lack of variety.

10 out of 48, ratio could be better. Let me adjust my statement, in the US how much have won? It's much smaller than 10. That 10 comes from great dudes like Infiltration and Momochi and their ilk. The US has much less variety. Hell we keep seeing Rufus in top 2 because the scene is so weak.

Spoiler

Mind you the to end is probably competitive, but everybody else is sub par.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

16 is barely ok

 

[Karsticles]

not to mention every smash character's moves are input the same way. You know how they all will work (read: how they are executed), so you just jump in and start experimenting. Gundam EXVS is essentially the same; A, B, C, A+B, A+C, B+C, with modifications for directional input. You get massive variance by suit in what happens when you push the button, but the starting point is the same. So 100 suits isn't daunting.

I find huge move lists to be soul-crushing. Every time I start VF I just look at the move list, say "nope" and fire up something else.

Why don't other fighters fix this, then? Was Marvel's depth hurt by giving everyone ABC combos? Give everyone similar QCF/QCB inputs, and we are good. HCB shouldn't even be an input these days. Kill it. Also, kill 360 inputs. Give me those insane QCB command grabs.

 

[Skilletor]

I hate the idea of homogeneous inputs so much. Sounds so boring to me.

 

[Kikujiro]

Game popularity is a factor that you eventually have to confront and choose being a mocked niche or a cool kid.

As long as there exists the flawed concept of a mythical "FGC" (in reality a collection of separate communities often outright hostile to each other) exists, big games are hard to ignore completely.

Which is why I truly hope SFV appeals to me. Why until proven otherwise and my hopes crushed, I hold out hope that various parts of the game will be in the ways I want, because brands are powerful and I'd prefer to have positive regard for the defacto #1 game in the "scene", because it's hard or impossible to ignore the biggest game when in streams, at events, or on sites dedicated to the broad lumping together of "fighting games". After accepting the inevitability of V's top dog status, there is only the concern of saving my blood pressure by hoping that the game earns that spot in my eyes. There will be no escaping the positive regard for it, and the discussions of what happened in events for it, or the people asking when it will be on next, so I'd prefer to be on the "winning team" this time, since that might be easier to achieve than trying to change the way enthusiasts of one fighting game talk about other games in the genre.

It sounds like SF "top dog" status bothers you so much you will never be able to enjoy it, no matter how you try.

 

[enzo_gt]

not to mention every smash character's moves are input the same way. You know how they all will work (read: how they are executed), so you just jump in and start experimenting. Gundam EXVS is essentially the same; A, B, C, A+B, A+C, B+C, with modifications for directional input. You get massive variance by suit in what happens when you push the button, but the starting point is the same. So 100 suits isn't daunting.

I find huge move lists to be soul-crushing. Every time I start VF I just look at the move list, say "nope" and fire up something else.

And if we bring this full circle, MKX reuses (or repurposes) a ton of animations from previous games (notably injustice) and the series has traditionally focused on a more homogenized moveset for characters as well. They've diversified more and more over the years, but it's a gift and a curse. It's helpful for new players that can grasp how to uppercut with every character, but also makes everything significantly less novel.

16 is barely ok

If this isn't next week's thread title, I don't know what is.

Then you are doing it wrong, you don't need all that.

Just look up the essentials online (5-10 moves that people favor the most for your character) and that should be more than enough to get you started.

You exemplified the problem right here.

 

[K.Sabot]

Increase walkspeed
get rid of most links
no focus yay
make the normals not look like slow garbage
get rid of chains
reduce hitstop
nerf reversal mashing


pleaaaaaase

 

[Slamtastic]

It sounds like SF "top dog" status bothers you so much you will never be able to enjoy it, no matter how you try.

I enjoyed Street Fighter once!

...of course, it was 3S, a game some people call "not a Street Fighter" game.

I hope Yata recaptures the feeling I got when I first discovered GGPO and realized I could play these "fighting game" (that I hadn't played too much before in pre online eras) against people and had tons of fun doings so.

But really I fear that being too aware of and daunted by the knowledge of how complex fighting games are, and the overwhelming pressure to not embarrass myself in front of my opponent/spectators (more than just the desire to win), and awareness of community culture may have soured the genre for me, and made them feel more like work that I actively look for excuses to avoid. Having various game design criticisms with every game on the market currently also doesn't help.

 

[Tripon]

I hate the idea of homogeneous inputs so much. Sounds so boring to me.

Boring is better than insane commands that drive you up the wall.
I'm looking at you Fatal Fury. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.

 

[KidA Seven]

10 out of 48, ratio could be better. Let me adjust my statement, in the US how much have won? It's much smaller than 10. That 10 comes from great dudes like Infiltration and Momochi and their ilk. The US has much less variety. Hell we keep seeing Rufus in top 2 because the scene is so weak.

Spoiler

Mind you the to end is probably competitive, but everybody else is sub par.

There would probably more characters winning more tournaments if every event wasn't filled with the same top tier guys winning tournaments. How many tournaments have Momochi and Daigo been at the top? If you go by top 8 you see a lot more variety or even just top 5. The fact that I was able to name that many characters for top 2 is amazing.

Variety is amazing in USF4.


Have I said amazing enough times?

 

[ShinMaruku]

I hate the idea of homogeneous inputs so much. Sounds so boring to me.

If it makes more people transition into the game and make the scene more vibarant trade off could be good.

 

[Skilletor]

Boring is better than insane commands that drive you up the wall.
I'm looking at you Fatal Fury. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.

There aren't many combos I can't do, so this doesn't apply to me.

If it makes more people transition into the game and make the scene more vibarant trade off could be good.

Don't really care about a scene in a game I won't play.

 

[Anne]

I don't care how Xrd is good or bad, I just care how it kind of nuked the smaller anime games in North America for no real reason, and the way people communicate that to me is frustrating. It's pretty frustrating to keep going to locals and having more of a drop off and more people saying "just play Xrd" than to play games I prefer. I don't wanna blame people, but ugh it's self perpetuating.

Despite that I still put on stuff for locals. I run all our events and pump up Xrd, I even started ranbats here and convinced the arcade owner to give us $100 for the prize, and put in $50 of my own money to have as a prize for the "B League" of newer players. I'm not going to just trash the game or not give the people who play it something, but I will be frustrated at losing out on my own fun a bit.

 

[Karsticles]

I hate the idea of homogeneous inputs so much. Sounds so boring to me.

What do different input sets add to a game?

 

[mbpm1]

If this isn't next week's thread title, I don't know what is.

Gotta be

 

[Slamtastic]

the series has traditionally focused on a more homogenized moveset for characters as well. They've diversified more and more over the years, but it's a gift and a curse. It's helpful for new players that can grasp how to uppercut with every character, but also makes everything significantly less novel.

Using uppercut as an example of character homogeneity in MK never made sense to me.

I know how to uppercut with ever character (besides Makoto) in SF4 too, you press Down + Hard Punch.

 

[Perro]

I wonder what people would say if they got rid of the light jab+kick throw?

Im terrible with HP-> grabs, don't do this to me capcom. And stop doing it SNK, i beg you.

 

[mbpm1]

get rid of chains

???

 

[petghost]

What do different input sets add to a game?

The difference between motion and charge inputs change the characters playstyle immensely don't they? Imagine guile or venom with all motions.

 

[Seyavesh]

I know how to uppercut with ever character (besides Makoto) in SF4 too, you press Down + Hard Punch.

what

 

[mbpm1]

I know how to uppercut with ever character (besides Makoto) in SF4 too, you press Down + Hard Punch.

What about Sagat

What about Chun Li

 

[enzo_gt]

I hate the idea of homogeneous inputs so much. Sounds so boring to me.

I do too. Even at the surface level characters *feel* the same to play because hadouken here is a hadouken there and the motions may give you different moves for the same motion.

Beyond that it sort of hampers depth. I'm not really a fan of creating difficulty at the input level, but part of what makes someone experienced and a specialist is those control idiosyncrasies that you have to get used to. And in turn, everyone you play online doesn't play every character with a fireball like Ken.

Homogenized inputs have these cascading problems. It works in Smash because characters are very limited in the number of moves they have, at a fraction of other fighting games. But again, Smash doesn't apply elsewhere because the verticality of levels also demands something of the sort.

 

[Skilletor]

What do different input sets add to a game?

I'm one of the people that think execution of the move and balance are intrinsically tied. I think making 360s a qcb/hcb, or removing 720s, changes utility, and changes the character.

I don't believe in execution barriers and don't want things made easier just to appeal to a demographic that want things to be easier.

But, like I said, it sounds boring. It is unappealing to me on the most basic of levels. Thinking about an SF game with homogeneous inputs makes me sad. It's a game I wouldn't play.

Using uppercut as an example of character homogeneity in MK never made sense to me.

I know how to uppercut with ever character (besides Makoto) in SF4 too, you press Down + Hard Punch.

A swing and a miss.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Im terrible with HP-> grabs, don't do this to me capcom. And stop doing it SNK, i beg you.

fuck no

 

[SolarKnight]

This. When I finally decided to try and move on to other games, I basically sealed my fate as being the grumpy person training moding on a set up by themselves.

Same thing is happening with Xrd tbh.

This is the most frustrating thing. I want to play, say, Skullgirls or UNIEL or even P4, but nobody cares. It got to the point that they just disconnected my setup and put another Marvel set up there while I was away for a moment because nobody played. After that point I just outright stopped bothering to bring my console...

 

[BadWolf]

You exemplified the problem right here.

Just pointing out that it's easier to get into VF than he thinks (which is what I'm doing as well right now).

 

[mbpm1]

I'm one of the people that think execution of the move and balance are intrinsically tied. I think making 360s a qcb/hcb, or removing 720s, changes utility, and changes the character.

Nah, just combine Gief's normal throw with his command throw =P

 

[ShinMaruku]

Don't really care about a scene in a game I won't play.

Well then there would not be an issue there.

 

[NEO0MJ]

This is the most frustrating thing. I want to play, say, Skullgirls or UNIEL or even P4, but nobody cares. It got to the point that they just disconnected my setup and put another Marvel set up there while I was away for a moment because nobody played. After that point I just outright stopped bothering to bring my console...

I know that feel, bro ;_;