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[Slamtastic]

what

What about Sagat

What about Chun Li

well, uhh, at least down and hard kick is a sweep for everyone

(guile's does two, i remember that)

 

[mbpm1]

well, uhh, at least down and hard kick is a sweep for everyone

Not Makoto =P

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

well, uhh, at least down and hard kick is a sweep for everyone

(guile's does two, i remember that)

 

[Shouta]

homogenous tools are good. homogenous inputs are kinda, eh. VF still getting it right.

 

[mbpm1]

All this homogenous tools stuff reminds me of how Aris was talking one time about how in Tekken it's like that.

You press a cr button and it will look the same or similar for each character, and you can get into the roster easier

 

[vocab]

I hate the idea of homogeneous inputs so much.

What fighting game actually has this? I mean there's games where normals function the same way between many if not every character (tekken, NRS games). Every fighting game character has their own execution quirks. Removing Stuff like Charge motion times x 2 for super or the guile/vega input would be much better for the game. Changing giefs 360 to a different motion only had dire consequences in HDR simply because of the damage you get from it. In SFIV it wouldn't change anything.

 

[ShinMaruku]

A balance is always required. Some shit is archaeic and could do with excisision but this genre will never do that. No outside influences.

 

[Pompadour]

Not Makoto =P

Not Dudley, either. Or Hugo, I think.

 

[Skilletor]

What fighting game actually has this?

I dunno. I just hate the idea of it pray it never happens in a fighter I care about.

 

[mbpm1]

What fighting game actually has this?

Spoiler

Smash

Not Dudley, either. Or Hugo, I think.

Technically not any of the characters with slides like Guy or Bison either

 

[enzo_gt]

homogenous tools are good. homogenous inputs are kinda, eh. VF still getting it right.

In what way?

Do you believe every character should have an uppercut or every character should have an anti-air?

 

[kirblar]

I am also in the "good that SFV doesn't have FA" camp.

Even better? No f'n FADCs.

 

[Slamtastic]

Even better? No f'n FADCs.

What a bad mechanic that was for a game that advertised itself on being newcomer friendly.

Why was all the holding and dashing crap needed when it could have just been a Roman Cancel type of press buttons, cancel to neutral with a pose and screen freeze, continue on type of deal?

 

[Shackzam]

Even better? No f'n FADCs.

Uppercut v-cancel, way more resources put into cancelling.

 

[petghost]

Maybe you seen it but here's a shitload of kazumi matches from t7
https://youtu.be/FrgfT3FHql0

She's got some mishima stuff

 

[Kimosabae]

So we agree that FGs have problems converting casuals into competent, dedicated players due to perceptions of complexity - but the idea of having to learn 100+ matchups being overwhelming is "total nonsense"? Or even having a potential character crisis that could water-log your progress?

Okay.

 

[mbpm1]

What a bad mechanic that was for a game that advertised itself on being newcomer friendly.

Why was all the holding and dashing crap needed when it could have just been a Roman Cancel type of press buttons, cancel to neutral with a pose and screen freeze, continue on type of deal?

I like this idea except for the pose and screen freeze

 

[Anne]

This is the most frustrating thing. I want to play, say, Skullgirls or UNIEL or even P4, but nobody cares. It got to the point that they just disconnected my setup and put another Marvel set up there while I was away for a moment because nobody played. After that point I just outright stopped bothering to bring my console...

I would slap somebody if they touched my console lol

 

[Onemic]

If you want to bring more people into the FGC having non-homogeneous inputs is the absolute worst idea ever.

 

[Perro]

fuck no

I'll give you KOF, but SNK better bring back Last Blade with CD untechable throws.

 

[vocab]

So we agree that FGs have problems converting casuals into competent, dedicated players due to perceptions of complexity - but the idea of having to learn 100+ matchups being overwhelming is "total nonsense"? Or even having a potential character crisis that could water-log your progress?

Okay.

Nah, but I think execution is the first barrier. Getting road blocked on trial 2 in a fighting game is like "man I spent 5 mintues with this game and they expect this from me? Fuck this game"

 

[mbpm1]

If you want to bring more people into the FGC having non-homogeneous inputs is the absolute worst idea ever.

that reminds me, down back to up forward, what an intuitive command lol

 

[Coffeeling]

Was it Harada that said that FG rosters have become bloated? I think I feel that way sometimes, and as people have already noted there are real benefits to a most concentrated roster, and can be healthy for new players, balancing, development of the community and meta, etc.

Said it in the other thread but 16 isn't really so low that I'm going to be regretting a game not having enough variety, even if we inevitably get a few more shotos. 6 is not 16, either.

You can have a big roster if the characters/matchups are simple like KOF ones. If your matchups are as heavy as SF4's or GG's, then NoGodNo.gif is the only proper response. Keep it under 30, chrissakes.

I am also in the "good that SFV doesn't have FA" camp.

I concur. It is nice to be able to press buttons.

This. When I finally decided to try and move on to other games, I basically sealed my fate as being the grumpy person training moding on a set up by themselves.

Same thing is happening with Xrd tbh.

I'm really glad our weekly has a bunch of people playing different games. 2k2um, 13, UNIEL, Xrd all saw play just from the anime/KOF heads today. Melty too. Lost in a GG tournament, messed around with 2k2um, had Gordeau win me some games in UNIEL and got wrecked in 13. <3

I'm also sure there are kof players who truly dislike xiii

"13 is not KOF" is a meme I've heard enough to want to punch anyone uttering the words.

I really dislike the graphical art style of 4. However any SF tho is better than none (and better than anime).

No.

It's not present in Skullgirls. You have to actually stand up to break grabs. So certainly a workaround is possible.

Yup, just make teching require a 6 or 4 input and don't make the window two years long and you suddenly have a low/throw game.

It sounds like SF "top dog" status bothers you so much you will never be able to enjoy it, no matter how you try.

I enjoy playing SF a lot. It just isn't 4. I've had a bunch of fun playing 3S and messing around in ST.

 

[ShinMaruku]

So we agree that FGs have problems converting casuals into competent, dedicated players due to perceptions of complexity - but the idea of having to learn 100+ matchups being overwhelming is "total nonsense"? Or even having a potential character crisis that could water-log your progress?

Okay.

All I will say is less characters can help more people get in by removing pointless options to some people. I'm sure somebody in here saying reducing complexity is not nessisarily removing depth.

It's mostly people getting stuck in ideology about how the games should be than what could help things get better.

I could be completely wrong too but that's my sense.

 

[Kimosabae]

Coming from a predominately Melee background: nothing wrong with homogenous inputs. If you're thinking about them in the context of the franchises that currently exist: you're doing it wrong.

 

[kirblar]

So we agree that FGs have problems converting casuals into competent, dedicated players due to perceptions of complexity - but the idea of having to learn 100+ matchups being overwhelming is "total nonsense"? Or even having a potential character crisis that could water-log your progress?

Okay.

Learning matchups isn't the problem- many can be approached in broadly similar fashion.

 

[Kimosabae]

It's not "The" problem it's "A" problem. Approaching matches similarly only gets you so far, especially in a game like Guilty Gear.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Coming from a predominately Melee background: nothing wrong with homogenous inputs. If you're thinking about them in the context of the franchises that currently exist: you're doing it wrong.

That's why I was saying it's perhaps ideology on how games should be blocking that.

 

[Beckx]

What fighting game actually has this?

Gundam EXVS. But inputs *do* very different things with very different consequences.

You can approach depth through execution or through strategy. Gundam EXVS and VO:OT compare nicely in this regard. As a friend of mine who is one of the better US VO:OT players says, EXVS has none of the execution depth but more strategic depth.

They're both great games btw, and I wouldn't change VO:OT for the world. (RIP VO:OT ).

 

[zlatko]

I sincerely want the characters saved for E3 to be leaked.

I can't hold the hype in. ; ;

 

[kirblar]

It's not "The" problem it's "A" problem. Approaching matches similarly only gets you so far, especially in a game like Guilty Gear.

GG/Anime games generally aren't going to be concerned about the barrier to entry problem w/ physical mechanics. They know their audience. (GG's issue was more trying to make sure it was relevant after such a long hiatus.)

 

[Karsticles]

The difference between motion and charge inputs change the characters playstyle immensely don't they? Imagine guile or venom with all motions.

I'm one of the people that think execution of the move and balance are intrinsically tied. I think making 360s a qcb/hcb, or removing 720s, changes utility, and changes the character.

I don't believe in execution barriers and don't want things made easier just to appeal to a demographic that want things to be easier.

But, like I said, it sounds boring. It is unappealing to me on the most basic of levels. Thinking about an SF game with homogeneous inputs makes me sad. It's a game I wouldn't play.



A swing and a miss.

Fair enough, though I don't know how you can't believe in execution barriers. Players like Viscant have shown that they are a very real thing. Personally, I can't play a fast-paced character in Smash. My hands get too tired too fast. However, I can play a high-execution character like Morrigan on a stick and do fireballs for days. Something about wrist vs. thumb motion makes it easier to maintain.

I want certain things to be easier. I want the barrier to entry to be lower. I want basics and fundamentals to carry over between characters. I think that is good game design. I don't think we gain anything from something like unique chain systems for every character. More than anything, though, I want double tap to dash to die. Horrible input that impedes gameplay speed.

This is the most frustrating thing. I want to play, say, Skullgirls or UNIEL or even P4, but nobody cares. It got to the point that they just disconnected my setup and put another Marvel set up there while I was away for a moment because nobody played. After that point I just outright stopped bothering to bring my console...

That isn't cool. Your setup, your rules.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Viscant and ultradavid are the poster boys for the execution barrier. I'm sure there are others too.

 

[Shouta]

In what way?

Do you believe every character should have an uppercut or an anti-air?

In a lot of ways. For example, everyone having the same basic tools means that once you learn how to play the game, you can get started on any char by properly applying that knowledge. It gives characters the generic options to handle standard situations so you don't end up with a match-up where one char can do nothing against a certain char. Having something you can generally rely on means that you can then spend time learning the situational things that make your character unique, etc.

Granted it's tough for a game like SF because their system is built differently than say VF but they do something similar already. Most have some form or anti-air, most of a way of dealing with fireballs as well.

Think about the weak chars in most fighting games, what problem do they have usually? Too many bad match-ups? Why are they bad match-ups? because they don't have the tools to deal with it.

Gundam EXVS. But inputs *do* very different things with very different consequences.

You can approach depth through execution or through strategy. Gundam EXVS and VO:OT compare nicely in this regard. As a friend of mine who is one of the better US VO:OT players says, EXVS has none of the execution depth but more strategic depth.

They're both great games btw, and I wouldn't change VO:OT for the world. (RIP VO:OT ).

Yeah, EXVS and VOOT are pretty good examples of different types of depth despite being a similar game at its core.

 

[Kimosabae]

GG/Anime games generally aren't going to be concerned about the barrier to entry problem w/ physical mechanics. They know their audience. (GG's issue was more trying to make sure it was relevant after such a long hiatus.)

But of course they should be - and mostly are. They just approach the problem in a different way.

That extends to "non-anime" games (aka Street Fighter) as well, it's just not as pronounced because the neutral game isn't as varied.

 

[Karsticles]

I still c.HP with Blanka to anti-air sometimes. Free to jump-ins if the ball isn't charged.

 

[Kadey]

Wow. League of Legends star is on front page of ESPN.com. Esports!!!!!!

 

[Beckx]

Wow. League of Legends star is on front page of ESPN.com. Esports!!!!!!

One can only imagine how ESPN will apply their "math is for nerds" approach to a game like LoL.

 

[Kumubou]

I don't care how Xrd is good or bad, I just care how it kind of nuked the smaller anime games in North America for no real reason, and the way people communicate that to me is frustrating. It's pretty frustrating to keep going to locals and having more of a drop off and more people saying "just play Xrd" than to play games I prefer. I don't wanna blame people, but ugh it's self perpetuating.

I think that can be broken at a local level if people can get on the same page with regards to what to play instead. I know locally that after the initial surge of interest in Xrd died down, most of the remaining players went back to +R because they like it better. A similar thing happened with UNIEL, with most of the core players going back and playing MBCC instead. The issue that can really come up here is if people travel to events. However, nobody here really travels, as everyone here is either a broke college student or too busy working a 9 to 5.

Honestly, if it came down to having to play SF4 or Xrd as my two games, I would just quit fighting games completely and go play something like LoL instead. Life is too short to play bad games. (Maybe I should take my own advice...)

 

[Kimosabae]

Wow. League of Legends star is on front page of ESPN.com. Esports!!!!!!

I actually find this to be a big deal.

 

[Pappasman]

Wow. League of Legends star is on front page of ESPN.com. Esports!!!!!!

That's a damn good article too.

 

[Tripon]

Ibuki is still the truth. That is all.

 

[Krackatoa]

I guess I don't have the same problem that some people are having. I have players of all games around here, and in spite the low population, it's easy to get gatherings for any title going. Old or new.

 

[Skilletor]

Ibuki is still the truth. That is all.

No lies detected.

 

[Onemic]

Ibuki is still the worst. That is all.

FTFY

 

[Karsticles]

I guess I don't have the same problem that some people are having. I have players of all games around here, and in spite the low population, it's easy to get gatherings for any title going. Old or new.

The only thing people around here don't play at locals anymore is Street Fighter and Marvel. More likely to see KoF and Skullgirls.

 

[zlatko]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1060048

Could Karst or Juice or both hop into this thread and read OP's question?

I feel like either of you two could provide some good insight. Karsticles since you are a Smash player as well, and Juice because you generally have insightful knowledge/tips in a variety of things fighting game related.

 

[Juicebox_FGC]

...I'm not looking forward to this, at the moment. I need to see evidence that players can't just suck then use V-Skills to suddenly be way better. It's still better than Ultras because you can probably bait/punish V-Skills but it's still a meter that fills when you suck, and since FAs are gone there won't be a way to manage it, really.

Please don't let there be invincible backdashes or DP shortcuts any more...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1060048

Could Karst or Juice or both hop into this thread and read OP's question?

I feel like either of you two could provide some good insight. Karsticles since you are a Smash player as well, and Juice because you generally have insightful knowledge/tips in a variety of things fighting game related.

The first post immediately after the OP was 100% correct.

To put it another way, the only way to get over stage fright is to get on stage over and over. Perhaps I have a small advantage here because I was actually seriously considering going to drama school after enjoying it so much in high school.

 

[KidA Seven]

Vesper has been posting some comments in the srk thread

he information is pretty vague. It's not giving all the info. V-trigger is not like X-factor, it actually changes how you play the character mid match. I can give more info tomorrow but I am sure Capcom will explain it very soon. I can say that taking damage isn't the only way to fill it.

Hmm Capcom hinting alot of information. I can say Capcom is doing a good job listening to feedback. Especially the speed of the game which I can confirm has been changed. I'm sure you guys will be pleased with it. In terms of comeback mechanics, It's hard to compare it to previous games. The best way to explain it without directly saying is that the pace and meta of the match will change dynamically during the round. The person "losing" won't necessarily be the first one to activate V-trig.

 

[zlatko]

...I'm not looking forward to this, at the moment. I need to see evidence that players can't just suck then use V-Skills to suddenly be way better. It's still better than Ultras because you can probably bait/punish V-Skills but it's still a meter that fills when you suck, and since FAs are gone there won't be a way to manage it, really.

Please don't let there be invincible backdashes or DP shortcuts any more...



The first post immediately after the OP was 100% correct.

To put it another way, the only way to get over stage fright is to get on stage over and over. Perhaps I have a small advantage here because I was actually seriously considering going to drama school after enjoying it so much in high school.

That's actually a good point you bring up that even I didn't think about with myself---I participated in a lot of choir, plays, and was going towards a Communication Major.

Hell my job is showing up in front of strangers on a daily basis to sell them on myself, my design, my company, and more.

People who are fine with putting themselves out there in other ways probably are less likely to have these nerves may be a takeaway.