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Fighting Games Weekly | May 11-17 | Sticks and Stones Break Zangief's Bones

K

Karsticles

Member
call_kotaku said:
A fireball is way easier than doing a triple camp pull in DOTA, and it's way less frustrating to play a skilled fighting game player than to lane vs a more skilled DOTA player.

If DOTA had no matchmaking you'd have people constantly posting threads in gaming about how they can't get into DOTA because they don't understand why they need to learn about creep aggro ranges and animation backswings and lane equilibrium before they're allowed to play the game and how the genre should do away with these execution barriers.

You'd have articles on kotaku about whether it's morally right to spam orb attacks in lane because it's not skillful.
Click to expand...
Lostconfused said:
If you are appealing to the lowest common denominator than they might be stuck with a cheapo keyboard that might not be able to handle more than two or something button presses at the same time.


That's not fair because you are comparing an execution of an action versus an execution of a strategy/tactic. Yeah throwing a fireball is easier than playing a proper footsie game. How is that a good comparison though?

Edit: Yeah this thread is leading me to believe that there are some misconceptions about the popular games and people are putting them up on a pedestal.
Click to expand...
Agreed with Lostconfused here. There are a lot of differences here that make it a poor comparison.

If you fail a triple pull: okay, you get less XP, but the game goes on.
If you fail a fireball: you may be dead right now.

If you fail a triple pull: "Ugh, I messed it up".
If you fail a fireball: "I swear I did that right."

Triple pull: Hand-eye coordination based on unit movement rates across the screen.
Fireball: Pure hand coordination with no visual component aside from "fail" or "succeed.

Triple pull: Advanced technique that you can do fine without.
Fireball: The game isn't even playable if you can't do this.

There are undoubtedly more differences, but it's easy to see how one would be more frustrating than the other.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
ITT: People who LOVE fighting games and have had years to adjust to their idiosyncrasies can't fathom why anyone else with less interest or dedication to the genre find the barrier to entry high :p
 
Ã

『Inaba Resident』

Banned
Professor Beef said:
That's not reptile though.
Click to expand...

Because that's the one from the last patch
ybMZrSY.jpg
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Lostconfused said:
If you are appealing to the lowest common denominator than they might be stuck with a cheapo keyboard that might not be able to handle more than two or something button presses at the same time.


That's not fair because you are comparing an execution of an action versus an execution of a strategy/tactic. Yeah throwing a fireball is easier than playing a proper footsie game. How is that a good comparison though?

Edit: Yeah this thread is leading me to believe that there are some misconceptions about the popular games and people are putting them up on a pedestal.
Click to expand...
It's just an example that there are simple conceptual actions that are somewhat tricky to execute in MOBAs, but nobody thinks they are necessary execution requirements even if they are immensely useful, while everyone thinks they need to do FADC combos in order to play SF4.

Nobody thought fighting games had some insurmountable executional mountain when they were playing SF2 on SNES against their equally scrubby little brothers, or playing Soul Calibur against their equally scrubby college dorm mates. But now all of a sudden fighting games are completely impenetrable to the average gamer, even though they're actually probably less difficult than most esports games. The difference is that those games do all they can to prevent people from confronting any large separations of skill, while fighting games embrace the beatdowns.

Another example is Hearthstone's barebones matchmaking, which fuels some of its pay2win reputation even though many high-level competitive decks are actually very cheap to put together.

For the record, being able to see and experience large differences in skill is one of my favorite parts of fighting games, and I don't want it to ever go away. However, I don't think the idea that they're especially executionally demanding needs to stick around, because 90% of the time execution is not why you lost.
 
M

MiniBossBattle

Member
Crocodile said:
ITT: People who LOVE fighting games and have had years to adjust to their idiosyncrasies can't fathom why anyone else with less interest or dedication to the genre find the barrier to entry high :p
Click to expand...

Its tough. Fighting games feel like a young man's game or at least a learned skill when you have time/dedication for it. Same could be said for doing art or math or programming. I still remember Infrit telling people he was a 4.0 GPA student then found MvC2.
 
P

petghost

Banned
I dno maybe the concept of a fighting game is what is unappealing rather than execution barriers etc. the genre is ancient and to a casually observer has not changed significantly since like 1992.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Triple stacking in a MOBA is more comparable to a series of option selects to cover various escape options in SF4 (like Momochi's DP OSes). It's a very high level execution trick that gives you an edge over the opponent in a high level match but it's not something you learn starting out and certainly not required to do well at low levels of play. When starting out you learn how to do Hadoken, not how to OS people on their wake up just like when you start a MOBA you learn how to do your abilities rather than learning how to stack camps.


Also time and dedication are barriers to entry for every competitive multiplayer game out there. Even Hearthstone the easiest e-sports game out right now.
 
D

DunpealD

Member
Dahbomb said:
Wrong things to adjust. The fact that they made reversals so easy to pull off yet they still have one frame links BnB shows that they got their priorities all messed up.
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Onemic said:
Chose the wrong things to adjust.

making the reversal window so large only gives an incentive for newbies to latch onto bad habits. Having one frame links is a problem. Not having a tutorial of any sort is a problem and making the player rely on getting outside sources of info to improve their game is a problem. Not having any type of community/competitive element within the game itself is a problem.
Click to expand...

fader said:
my exact reasoning why I hate the reversal window. I know their mentality is so that new players don't feel oppressed when facing an experienced player but that's just lazy game design imo. In the long run, rewarding healthy habits is a better way of approaching this problem.
Click to expand...

Really? You guys think that big reversal window is an issue, but in the same context you say that 1framers are too difficult? Does not compute and to be brutally honest, it sounds hypocritical. Both are preventative in terms of execution. Building a gameplan around your opponents inability to do a reversal doesn't sound good at all. Using the "new player" excuse is especially dirty, considering in that particular case. The onus is 100% on the player and it's up to him to learn not to push buttons, which is easy to rectify with simple logic/common sense.
There is a huge difference between "Is he/she going to do it?" and "Is he/she going to do it and is he/she even CAPABLE of doing it? If the latter one is negative... BUFFET TIME!"

Considering what Harada said about netcode. One might assume that big reversal windows are also present due to online multiplayer and was integrated in foresight. Which could also mean that big reversal windows are here to stay.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
The only thing hypocritical here is SF4.

I am fine with reversal windows being lax as long as 1 frame combo requirements don't exist AND FADCs to make your reversals safe don't exist. If reversals were always unsafe then they can make the reversal windows 100 frames for all I care.

At least Capcom was smart enough to remove advantage on reversal FADC forward.
 
P

pixelish

Member
art at it again with his esports celebrity status
Arturo Sanchez ‏@nycfurby 4m
Yo ull just showd up to queens college someone from the fgc works at micro center yeaa blow up the employee discount
Click to expand...
 
P

petghost

Banned
vulva said:
I don't understand why people care about reversal windows so much. Like I can't begin to fathom why it matters
Click to expand...

I dno it seems like a weird thing for beginning/intermediate players in a game with 1f links and shitty online where dropping a link can lead to getting a mashed out dp in your face.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
oneida said:
what a weird drive by
Click to expand...

Is it? I'm just saying (especially since it applies to any ingroup) it doesn't shock me that those who have a lot of experience with fighting games or just love the genre take for granted how things that come easily to them might not be so easy to those who want to play a fighting game primarily because they like the art/music or because of the story modes or because the flashy combos looked cool. We are talking about catching and retaining the very casual audience correct?

Shitty mentalities/"scrub" mentalities ("honor", trying to run before you walk, etc.) are amongst the biggest obstacles but they are present in pretty much every multiplayer genre. There are aspects specific to "traditional" fighting games that makes things more tricky compared to other genres. You can, as an example, say till you're blue in the face how easy fireballs are to do (and that's true to some extent) but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people find them hard to do and that the ability to zone is a pretty basic technique one needs even when fighting other players at similarly low skill levels.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Dahbomb said:
Triple stacking in a MOBA is more comparable to a series of option selects to cover various escape options in SF4 (like Momochi's DP OSes). It's a very high level execution trick that gives you an edge over the opponent in a high level match but it's not something you learn starting out and certainly not required to do well at low levels of play. When starting out you learn how to do Hadoken, not how to OS people on their wake up just like when you start a MOBA you learn how to do your abilities rather than learning how to stack camps.


Also time and dedication are barriers to entry for every competitive multiplayer game out there. Even Hearthstone the easiest e-sports game out right now.
Click to expand...
A fireball is important because it's a hitbox that moves independently of your body, a DP is important because it has invincibility frames, and a combo is important because it lets you get more damage from landing hits, but all of them exist to compliment the footsies and spacing game and actually aren't even necessary for playing the most basic "game" of street fighter. The core part of fighting games is about understanding spacing and psychology, not about being able to do X or Y move, but the general impression amongst casuals is the opposite.

I think the game that best demonstrated the usefulness and purpose of higher-level techniques is VF5. All the characters have the same basic toolset and a large proportion of the game is played just with those, so even though there's a large number of weird eccentricities and some pretty difficult execution, the core game is very approachable.
Juicebox_FGC said:
This is important, I agree.

Now how do you accurately segregate skill levels in a fighting game?

For that matter, how will any kind of segregation work with <1000 concurrent players at a time (and likely far less than that in any particular region)?
Click to expand...

I think the difficult answer might be that new fighting games will never become popular in the same way mobas or FPSes are until someone makes a fighting game that fighting game players aren't good at (in which case it probably won't even be a fighting game anymore). Accessibility (platforms, netcode, F2P, etc) will help but I don't know how much it would ultimately do.
 
O

Onemic

Member
Crocodile said:
Is it? I'm just saying (especially since it applies to any ingroup) it doesn't shock me that those who have a lot of experience with fighting games or just love the genre take for granted how things that come easily to them might not be so easy to those who want to play a fighting game primarily because they like the art/music or because of the story modes or because the flashy combos looked cool. We are talking about catching and retaining the very casual audience correct?

Shitty mentalities/"scrub" mentalities ("honor", trying to run before you walk, etc.) are amongst the biggest obstacles but they are present in pretty much every multiplayer genre. There are aspects specific to "traditional" fighting games that makes things more tricky compared to other genres. You can, as an example, say till you're blue in the face how easy fireballs are to do (and that's true to some extent) but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people find them hard to do and that the ability to zone is a pretty basic technique one needs even when fighting other players at similarly low skill levels.
Click to expand...

Considering I initially came from CS, I dont think I fit into that mentality at all. I tried getting into MOBA's multiple times before becoming an 09'er(12'er techincally) and found MOBA's much more difficult to get into for the reasons I described before. Sure pointing and clicking is easier compared to doing a hadouken, but MOBA's are a whole lot deeper at a low level vs FG's and I think some people are really underestimating the fact that because it's a team game that requires communication(much more so than CS), having that basic ability to point and click is immediately not enough. Whereas in SF4 even though I lost most of the time and I could barely do a DP, I could find people my level to play against and just spam normals all day until one of us died.(has everyone forgotten the old jump in HK, sweep that most newbies did?) The equivalent to this in DOTA is being detrimental to your team as you dont know anything, but your team still being able to win with you as a handicap, which almost never ends in a pleasurable experience since no one likes a handicap. This is why I said that finding friends to play with before jumping online solo is practically required for MOBA's. The same isnt true for FG's.

Another factor to me was feedback. Feedback for how you're performing in SF was more immediate due to less time being spent for a single match. Id spend an hour not knowing what to do in DOTA and after the amount that I learned was near non existent. Relatively even though the same could be said for my first few FG matches, the fact that each match only took an average of 2 minutes helped the eventual learning of your mistakes much faster.(Same goes for CS, which is why I also think that game is much easier to learn than a MOBA as well)

Now why are MOBA's more popular than FG's even though imo they have a much higher barrier to entry? Simple. They're team games. Pretty much all the most popular multiplayer games are team oriented or at least have that option to be so. MOBA's require teamwork and large amounts of communication, moreso than CS or COD. Not to mention that most popular MOBA's are free of charge.

So while it's true that the barrier to entry, to just sit down and play a MOBA vs a FG is definitely lower for a MOBA, the barrier to entry for getting to a low/casual level in a MOBA is higher than an FG. At least to me it was. Maybe it's different for everyone else and I'm just an exception.
 
.la1n

.la1n

Member
Gunslinger said:
seriously?.../sigh..why can't we just get a human reptile....
Click to expand...

No idea, obviously they could only do such much within the confines of the current model they have in place but still don't know why he had to be scaly. It's not so much Klassic as it is MK X reptile stole some ninja clothes.
 
F

Fraeon

Member
Windom Earle said:
Jaha Based God is on the SOK podcast tonight to talk about the drama that happened between him and DSP a few years ago at Evo.
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Come on. Talking about shitty drama from 5-10 years ago regarding people who aren't even relevant in the community anymore?

&#12302;Inaba Resident&#12303;;163983058 said:
Because that's the one from the last patch
ybMZrSY.jpg
Click to expand...

I like it. The only "klassik" part of it is based on MK3 sub but it does look a lot better than MKX Reptile at the moment.
 
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