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Fighting Games Weekly | May 11-17 | Sticks and Stones Break Zangief's Bones

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
The reversal leniency makes sense in a game with focus attacks. I feel like meaty focus would be pretty dumb if you had ST timing on reversals. Especially online. Also, considering how offense-oriented the game has been in the past, forcing the attacker to at least keep the threat of a reversal in the back of his head is probably a good thing.

It's pretty dumb when some characters get an extremely advantageous position after a reversal though. I.E. Yun.
 
Since FG's arent team oriented, you dont have that immediate pressure of having to be decent right off the bat.

I think you are confused. You mixed up FG's and mobas. In a moba since you are 1 person out of 5 you can still win without doing anything or even while being a detriment to your team. In a Fighting Game you have to be decent right of the bat because the other person is literally destroying you from the word go.

Although this is mixing various forms of psychological pressure, internal, external, environmental.

This also ignores the actual game flow in the games involved. You are only looking at it from Win/Lose perspective. For most players, especially new ones you have to look at the entire experience and in a moba it's 50 minutes compared to the few minutes you spend in a fighting game match.

There is one thing I do know, developers don't know how to manage expectations and have no idea how better to teach their games. I don't think the core fanbase knows how to either.
Key thing to remember is that the goals of the developers are not always the same as the goals of the players.
 

Xevren

Member
mkx patch coming out in a few hours
http://community.wbgames.com/t5/Latest-Updates/Patch-Notes-PS4-5-14-15/ba-p/505762

i think they fixed the gamebreaking ermac bug.

Oh shit

"Kung Jin (Bojutsu) – Several staff attacks were not combo damage scaling correctly"

Dun dun dun!

Also summoner quan nerfed, can't call bat when it hits instantly like you could. Not surprised about that one.

But the best part?!


Added the following Costume for online compatibility:
Klassic Reptile

YESSSSSSSSS!

Maybe, gonna assume it looks like butt. But I'm hopeful!
 
mkx patch coming out in a few hours
http://community.wbgames.com/t5/Latest-Updates/Patch-Notes-PS4-5-14-15/ba-p/505762

i think they fixed the gamebreaking ermac bug.

Quan Chi (Warlock) – No longer has the Front Punch, Back Punch, Throw combo (Portal Slam).
Quan Chi (Warlock) – Gained a new special move Portal Scoop (D, F, FP).

So they changed a string ender to a special move? Mysterious

Kitana – Gained a new attack on away +3 (Pretty Kick)
Shinnok – Away + 3 (Shin Kick) is now towards + 4 and he has a new away + 3 (Devious Heel)
New command normals

Shinnok (Impostor) – Now steals Dash Punch from Jax instead of Ground Pound.
Shinnok (Necromancer) – Can now control the location of Judgment Smash & Judgment Fist.
Sizeable changes
 
I feel like atleast 75% of the perceived difficulty of fighting games is because of how little segregation there is between different levels of skill, both within the community and in matchmaking.

No 7-year old kid picking up LoL or DOTA for the first time is going to have to play vs a world champion in matchmaking unless shenanigans are involved
 

fader

Member
Wrong things to adjust. The fact that they made reversals so easy to pull off yet they still have one frame links BnB shows that they got their priorities all messed up.

The trials in SF4 are also pretty damn bad. Making players learn links/hard to execute combos first in terms of learning characters is so ridiculously backwards.

Chose the wrong things to adjust.

making the reversal window so large only gives an incentive for newbies to latch onto bad habits.

my exact reasoning why I hate the reversal window. I know their mentality is so that new players don't feel oppressed when facing an experienced player but that's just lazy game design imo. In the long run, rewarding healthy habits is a better way of approaching this problem.

I highly doubt they'll make a tutorial worth a damn, considering that almost no developer has done a good job at this yet. The lone exception to this is maybe GGXrd

virtua fighter...


That's RF

ahh. he's pretty gdlk in DOA too
 

kirblar

Member
The reversal leniency makes sense in a game with focus attacks. I feel like meaty focus would be pretty dumb if you had ST timing on reversals. Especially online. Also, considering how offense-oriented the game has been in the past, forcing the attacker to at least keep the threat of a reversal in the back of his head is probably a good thing.

It's pretty dumb when some characters get an extremely advantageous position after a reversal though. I.E. Yun.
If there was leniency on the front end (Omega-style buffer) it'd be far less of an issue.

The "set it and forget it" type of near-eternal input storage is really dumb though.
 

petran79

Banned
I dont really agree with this, at least for DOTA2. You could say the same for fighting games when it comes to pressing a button for a normal. CS:GO and DOTA2 are unforgiving to new players especially DOTA2 as it's a team game. To even approach DOTA2 it takes far more than just clicking the screen, you immediately have to have a sense of strategy and awareness of your surroundings or no one will want to play with you. Not to mention keyboard shortcuts so you dont waste time attacking, buying items, or any other actions you might need to do. Since FG's arent team oriented, you dont have that immediate pressure of having to be decent right off the bat.

Another problem is that fighting games are so fragmented, while DOTA and CS exist for years with millions of players. Oldest major FG that is accepted worldwide are SF4 and Virtua Fighter 5. So if you try to learn another game there is a chance it will be abandoned, leaving very few and mostly good players or you'll have to upgrade to another version that will require re-learning characters. Not the most fitting conditions for newer players that have to forget everything they learned so far.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Key thing to remember is that the goals of the developers are not always the same as the goals of the players.
Without doubt. But when they can't make a game that appeals to more people to keep their model growing and profitable, well they run into a issue. I'm sure they want more players to play their game but can't find a a way to make the game they want and teach it properly.

I know most here don't give two shits bout doa, but they have a pretty good training mode and they did put out a few preliminary tutorial vids and looks like they have pretty good retentation due to their earnings with their dlc with two thirds of 3.1 Million people buying multiple dlc packages. They have made a few strides. But I don't expect Capcom to do such a thing with a good tutorial and Netherealm will probably never get that uptick on their dlc because their dlc is quite cynical. :p
 

Coda

Member
Cb2eIRx.jpg

That dude had a teleport for his front dash, great pokes, a counter, one of the best uppercuts I've ever seen in a fighter and a whole string of specials that could cancel into other unique specials. His combos were stylish as fuck and some of his stuff even got yanked to help create Vergil later because it was just that good.

Just check out this segment of one of his combos.

B6S1jnn.gif

Damn I had never seen that before. That combo was so dope.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
I don't like UAS Karas as much as CGoH Karas. You have to do so much work for so little damage. Very similar to Strider in Ultimate.
CGoH Karas was definitely crazy dumb though. lol
 

El Sloth

Banned
I think that would fall more under Maidsports, honestly.
MeidoSports*

I hope all the maids are all secretly godlike at fighting games.
As an aside, I've always thought the issue of fighting games being hard to play limiting their success was mostly bunk (it's not like Dota 2 or CS:GO are easy to play at all), but what other games have gotten massively popular (competitively or otherwise) that have the base dexterity requirements fighting games do? I suspect that's the hang-up, more than anything. The only thing I can really think of is Starcraft.
I can't agree with this. If people didn't feel traditional fighting were hard to play, then we would not have so many dudes riding Smash's control scheme so hard. A lot of folks just want to be able to press a button for their hadouken. Like you can just click the mouse to make your gun shoot in CS.
 
I know most here don't give two shits bout doa, but they have a pretty good training mode and they did put out a few preliminary tutorial vids and looks like they have pretty good retentation due to their earnings with their dlc with two thirds of 3.1 Million people buying multiple dlc packages. They have made a few strides. But I don't expect Capcom to do such a thing with a good tutorial and Netherealm will probably never get that uptick on their dlc because their dlc is quite cynical. :p

Valve's approach from the beginning, when making DOTA 2, was that it was harsh and unwelcoming to anyone starting out and that is a problem that needed to be fixed.

I am not actually sure if they managed to do that however, there are many other factors landing them selves to success of Dota. Dota the mod was already an extremely popular "game type" to begin with. There is something inherent in the design that was appealing to people, and free isn't necessarily it since it was a mod for a paid game.
 

Skab

Member
Big Capcom publisher sale on Steam, and they left out SFxT. Would have totally picked it up too.

Edit: Oh, apparently they never moved it off of GFWL, so online doesn't work. Nevermind then.

But hey, Ultra is only $15 if anyone is interested.
 

Onemic

Member
I think you are confused. You mixed up FG's and mobas. In a moba since you are 1 person out of 5 you can still win without doing anything or even while being a detriment to your team. In a Fighting Game you have to be decent right of the bat because the other person is literally destroying you from the word go.

Although this is mixing various forms of psychological pressure, internal, external, environmental.

This also ignores the actual game flow in the games involved. You are only looking at it from Win/Lose perspective. For most players, especially new ones you have to look at the entire experience and in a moba it's 50 minutes compared to the few minutes you spend in a fighting game match.

Yes, but no one will want you on your team though, and you'll just be straight cussed out almost every game. That's why almost all the MOBA players I know only got into it because they played almost exclusively with their friends before actually hopping online.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Valve's approach from the beginning, when making DOTA 2, was that it was harsh and unwelcoming to anyone starting out and that is a problem that needed to be fixed.

I am not actually sure if they managed to do that however, there are many other factors landing them selves to success of Dota. Dota the mod was already an extremely popular "game type" to begin with. There is something inherent in the design that was appealing to people, and free isn't necessarily it since it was a mod for a paid game.

DOTA and LoL are exceptions to the rule. They are the aberrations I feel. But the first thing is they are free and have legacy hold outs so that core fanbase is large enough to be self sufficient as you stated. Fighting games never had that leg up. Before it was in arcades and appealed to a certain person then they are now on consoles for box prices and they have a mystique around them that also limits their appeal.

Now just by watching them you see they could grow and take some of that shine from DOTA and LoL with the basics being very straight forward. But that would take that Valve and other have never done make the game fun to learn for the masses. Likely won't happen.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Big Capcom publisher sale on Steam, and they left out SFxT. Would have totally picked it up too.

Edit: Oh, apparently they never moved it off of GFWL, so online doesn't work. Nevermind then.

But hey, Ultra is only $15 if anyone is interested.

I just want SFV now ;_;
 

alstein

Member
I think that would fall more under Maidsports, honestly.

I'll never understand why Capcom/Dimps made the reversal buffer the way they did. I'll never understand

As an aside, I've always thought the issue of fighting games being hard to play limiting their success was mostly bunk (it's not like Dota 2 or CS:GO are easy to play at all), but what other games have gotten massively popular (competitively or otherwise) that have the base dexterity requirements fighting games do? I suspect that's the hang-up, more than anything. The only thing I can really think of is Starcraft.

AnimEVO should have maidmatches instead of money matches, have them on Friday and losers have to cosplay as maids on Saturday. Get some cosplay company to sponsor it.
 
Big Capcom publisher sale on Steam, and they left out SFxT. Would have totally picked it up too.

Edit: Oh, apparently they never moved it off of GFWL, so online doesn't work. Nevermind then.

But hey, Ultra is only $15 if anyone is interested.

Even if they did move it, you wouldn't want it anyway.
Online for SFxT on PC was fucking ass.
 
Yes, but no one will want you on your team though, and you'll just be straight cussed out almost every game. That's why almost all the MOBA players I know only got into it because they played almost exclusively with their friends before actually hopping online.
All of these problems can be and are solved through external tools such as matchmaking, policing of abusive players and low tolerance for harassment of other players. You don't need to change your game or mechanics, you need a large player pool that you can regulate.

Playing with friends is a catch all solution to everything and anything. You are propping up a mediocre or bad experience with the positive social experience.

DOTA and LoL are exceptions to the rule. They are the aberrations I feel. But the first thing is they are free and have legacy hold outs so that core fanbase is large enough to be self sufficient as you stated. Fighting games never had that leg up. Before it was in arcades and appealed to a certain person then they are now on consoles for box prices and they have a mystique around them that also limits their appeal.

Now just by watching them you see they could grow and take some of that shine from DOTA and LoL with the basics being very straight forward. But that would take that Valve and other have never done make the game fun to learn for the masses. Likely won't happen.
Dota -> LOL -> Dota 2 is a very clear progression. There is a legacy and a passing of the torch. The game style has clearly seen success at it's earliest outset, that's why so many tried to copy it. There have been multiple attempts to update or change up the formula by various groups of people. LoL and Dota 2 are merely the most successful attempts to date.

Saying that Fighting Games don't have that legacy fanbase just means they were never big enough in the first place, because fighting games are one of the oldest genres around. MOBAs are young upstarts in comparison.
 

petghost

Banned
We're never gonna have another 09 again are we? By 09 I mean massive influx of casual players and mainstream gaming media resulting in a big boost to the fgcs esportsness.
 

Csr

Member
I was thinking that perhaps if fg's made changes to how m/kb work with them it would help somewhat increase their popularity with the dota, lol crowd. Or maybe that is stupid. what do you think guys?
 

alstein

Member
We're never gonna have another 09 again are we? By 09 I mean massive influx of casual players and mainstream gaming media resulting in a big boost to the fgcs esportsness.

There's a chance of it next year with SFV, but it won't be like SFIV. Slim chance a great SCV does the same.


I'd argue 2012 was like 09 as well, but we won't get a repeat of 2012 anytime soon. Too many folks have left the market.
 

fader

Member
I was thinking that perhaps if fg's made changes to how m/kb work with them it would help somewhat increase their popularity with the dota, lol crowd. Or maybe that is stupid. what do you think guys?

giphy.gif


We're never gonna have another 09 again are we? By 09 I mean massive influx of casual players and mainstream gaming media resulting in a big boost to the fgcs esportsness.

09 was special because it was a market dried out from the lack of Capcom fighters in years. that type of popularity wont happen again in SF5. The next move is for Capcom to aggressively push SF5 and do certain development changes in SF5 that I and a lot of people in this thread do not expect for them to make.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I was thinking that perhaps if fg's made changes to how m/kb work with them it would help somewhat increase their popularity with the dota, lol crowd. Or maybe that is stupid. what do you think guys?

maybe if the game used two buttons
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I was thinking that perhaps if fg's made changes to how m/kb work with them it would help somewhat increase their popularity with the dota, lol crowd. Or maybe that is stupid. what do you think guys?
I think it's worth exploring. Likewise I think fighting games in the mobile space are worth exploring and there are some decently successful (in terms of performance) attempts.

There is a massive market for fighting games that aren't competitive first and foremost.
 
A fireball is way easier than doing a triple camp pull in DOTA, and it's way less frustrating to play a skilled fighting game player than to lane vs a more skilled DOTA player.

If DOTA had no matchmaking you'd have people constantly posting threads in gaming about how they can't get into DOTA because they don't understand why they need to learn about creep aggro ranges and animation backswings and lane equilibrium before they're allowed to play the game and how the genre should do away with these execution barriers.

You'd have articles on kotaku about whether it's morally right to spam orb attacks in lane because it's not skillful.
 

fader

Member
SFV

iewhfZyPaKSa8.gif


We have a competitive gaming superstar. He will lead us to the promise land.

but he's washed up

A fireball is way easier than doing a triple camp pull in DOTA, and it's way less frustrating to play a skilled fighting game player than to lane vs a more skilled DOTA player.

If DOTA had no matchmaking you'd have people constantly posting threads in gaming about how they can't get into DOTA because they don't understand why they need to learn about creep aggro ranges and animation backswings and lane equilibrium before they're allowed to play the game and how the genre should do away with these execution barriers.

You'd have articles on kotaku about whether it's morally right to spam orb attacks in lane because it's not skillful.

I feel like people underrate the complications in MOBA games when comparing them to fighting games. A large majority of people who play LoL are in their lowest elo ranking but still actively play the game. Do you think those people complain and say "i will never be good in LoL". People who play MOBA's are more willing to learn about the nuances of farming and denying than learning the nuances of footsies and whiff punishing.
 
Why is the keyboard out of buttons?
Maybe you guys are right and it doesn's make much sense though.

If you are appealing to the lowest common denominator than they might be stuck with a cheapo keyboard that might not be able to handle more than two or something button presses at the same time.

A fireball is way easier than doing a triple camp pull in DOTA, and it's way less frustrating to play a skilled fighting game player than to lane vs a more skilled DOTA player.
That's not fair because you are comparing an execution of an action versus an execution of a strategy/tactic. Yeah throwing a fireball is easier than playing a proper footsie game. How is that a good comparison though?

Edit: Yeah this thread is leading me to believe that there are some misconceptions about the popular games and people are putting them up on a pedestal.
 

Dahbomb

Member
LMAO @ comparing doing triple stack pulls in DOTA vs doing a Fireball.


I dont really agree with this, at least for DOTA2. You could say the same for fighting games when it comes to pressing a button for a normal. CS:GO and DOTA2 are unforgiving to new players especially DOTA2 as it's a team game. To even approach DOTA2 it takes far more than just clicking the screen, you immediately have to have a sense of strategy and awareness of your surroundings or no one will want to play with you. Not to mention keyboard shortcuts so you dont waste time attacking, buying items, or any other actions you might need to do. Since FG's arent team oriented, you dont have that immediate pressure of having to be decent right off the bat.
You missed the point. All the stuff you listed is beyond basic controls and moveset of a character.

What can your character do in CS?

He can switch weapons, shoot, aim, jump, crouch... all simply single button inputs. Not many actions to learn and all generally done by a single input (not pressing a bunch of directional inputs than press three buttons to do a command).


What is your moveset in DOTA2?

Average character in that game has 3 abilities, a passive and some items to use... all of which is done by pressing a keyboard button and then click on the screen. A noob can come in and do all of Lion's skills within 5 minutes of picking a game.


What does your average SF character have?

Like 20 different normal inputs, a bunch of special moves with more complex directional inputs, EX moves that require double button press, Supers and Ultras with even more complex directional inputs.



We are taking about the basic kit of the character you control in these games and it's a huge difference. We are not talking about the curve it takes to get "good", we are talking about the effort it takes to do all the things your character is able to do at the bare minimum. If you don't see the fundamental difference here then you will never understand why FGs are less popular than these games.
 

Busaiku

Member
Games have been growing though.
Probably won't be a huge influx of new players at once, but that's cause the player base hasn't fallen off like in the 00s.
Street Fighter at Evo's been getting bigger since 2013. Super Smash Bros is bigger now than it ever was, across 2 games no less. Mortal Konbat/NRS is an actual scene now. Guilty Gear's bigger now (in the US) than any ArcSys game prior.
Marvel's done though.
 

Csr

Member
If you are appealing to the lowest common denominator than they might be stuck with a cheapo keyboard that might not be able to handle more than two or something button presses at the same time.

Ah yeah i forgot about that, it definitely is a problem allthough the combination of a mouse and keyboard might offer solutions around that. Is there a control scheme that does that and is also intuitive and doesn't put it's user in advantage or disadvantage compared to gamepads and sticks though? Who knows.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Big Capcom publisher sale on Steam, and they left out SFxT. Would have totally picked it up too.

Edit: Oh, apparently they never moved it off of GFWL, so online doesn't work. Nevermind then.

But hey, Ultra is only $15 if anyone is interested.

FYI looks like the upgrade version of Ultra (if you already own AE) is 50% off as well so that's $7.49.
 

pixelish

Member
common footage of marvel on life support
CEO Gaming ‏@CEOGaming 7m
Help #SaveMahvel at #CEO2015. If 100 people pre-reg by June 1st for #UMvC3, @OneFrameLink will throw in a $1K Pot Bonus! Currently at 40.
 
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