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[ShinMaruku]

Does searching on Youtube/forums out of my own curiosity count as "getting help"?

I was more talking about finding somebody to play with who can give pointers. But for others using youtube and forums can be help but I don't think that would be something the lay man would do. Doing something with a person who can answer is a much more powerful learning tool.

 

[Lostconfused]

How much of you ever got into a game without ANY help it all just clicked to you?

I did it with EXVS. However it took playing a lot of games, a group of new players that started out playing at the same time as myself, constant organized play with that group of people, and losing a whole damn lot.

Eventually yeah I snapped and started to play the game in a way that would let me win more? I don't know how much better I got though.

That's why a large casual pool is important, people can either dick around forever and not learn anything, but eventually someone might decide that they want to be better than that.

Also, casuals who are willfully unaware of high-level play, or who refuse to acknowledge it, will never get better and are purely wastes of time.

This I can't agree with. Being unaware is very different from active ignorance. Some people will quit before they change the way they play but nobody will play forever in exactly the same way.

 

[Kumubou]

The problem is learning comes from an attitude of accepting losing- but the nature of most fighting games is to punish for losing. This becomes worse in ranked mode systems.

I'd say, at least in the netplay environment where the majority of people learn, ranked mode systems are a problem- because they make losing too enraging for many folks.

If I was designing an online mode- I would either have a completely hidden ELO ranking that I'd make efforts to obfuscate as much as possible, or I'd disable ranked entirely (too bad Microsoft requires a ranked mode in games)

I actually think taking out ranked completely is an awful idea. Going into random games only to either stomp or be stomped is no fun either (and is one of the reasons I stopped playing SSB4, to be honest). What would be far better would be to implement a rank-based matchmaking system that actually works. I think how LoL does it is interesting -- you gain and lose rank points within your tier, but you can never actually rank down (until you get to Master or something). If I remember correctly, KI rips this off almost wholesale as well and it seems to work well enough there.

 

[zlatko]

Check Smashboards and the GAF thread, yes. It'd also help if you were specific on what you wanted to learn.

First of all, if they're expecting you to do the work for them, like how the question was framed, then you're damn right I'm gonna call them a lazy fuck.

Secondly, Dissidia clicked with me since the first time I tried the demo. Someone eventually pointed me to Dissidia Forums after beating me online a few months into the game's life, and that was that.

I guess... how to play correctly for competitive 1 v 1.

If I check smashboards to learn combos, then I guess I need to everything after that. I'm confused on how to approach Smash in terms of learning compared to a traditional 2d fighter.

MKX for example I learn the mechanics, combos, defense, match ups through playing, mix ups, spacing, footsies, etc. Things like that make sense to me to learn. Smash feels like another language almost apart from other 2D fighters.

I tried a few online matches in 1 v 1 for glory, and couldn't take even 1 stock off my opponent. It was essentially I'd get a few stray hits, but they'd capitalize on major damage and get me off the stage hella easily and give me a bad time trying to get back on.

 

[Professor Beef]

This I can't agree with. Being unaware is very different from active ignorance.

And I said "willfully unaware."

 

[Azure J]

I'd honestly say that Smash is movement first, everything else you specified afterwards ztlako. If you have good movement (i.e. you know how to stay as limber as possible and don't use high committal actions [smash attacks everywhere, lots of time shielding] until you know they're best for you), you can pretty much improv a lot of gameplay off that and knowing your own character. For someone wholly new to the series, it might be a bit rough and I wouldn't know how to organize myself to teach them, but for someone coming from any sort of fighting game (or platformers even), there are concepts that should translate well enough.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Does searching on Youtube/forums out of my own curiosity count as "getting help"?

This requires too much active desire to learn on their part. The real world criticism towards these players is that they want skill to be literally spoonfed to them. The PC term is that they want the game designer to carefully curate the game's skill curve for their level.

 

[ShinMaruku]

A large casual pool with a proper learning gradient would actually make things naturally fall into place.

If you want a casual player to get to ground level in a fighting game is to convert them, this will require a different approach or you need a huge player pool of players where the bad players play their skill and those who become converted can climb up to another player properly.

The nature of these games will always be antagonistic to the unaware. They are really well designed and well tuned for the converted. But if you want a more massive pool some things will have to change. Either way is fine, if you love the pool you have and get good matches all good.

But if some things infuriate you like how some people winning playing badly and using bad habits online and that makes you flip your top, consider why are they doing the auto pilot thing? Is it due to them just putting all their brain power into going into their combos? Perhaps some better ways of learning needs to be put in to stave off that person.

Discussion is a start and not just by people within the community, sometimes an outside view can help bring a better idea of how things can come.

 

[mbpm1]

i
fucking
hate
dhalsim's
mk



why the fuck does that knee's hitbox have to go out so far
fucking hell

yeah i'm salty

That's Back HK, not MK

And yeah, don't even try to beat that, you won't unless you're Vega or Sakura or something

 

[fader]

Damn... nice posts ShinMaruku

Pretty happy I am not the only one who shares these thoughts.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Damn... nice posts ShinMaruku

Pretty happy I am not the only one who shares these thoughts.

I'm sure we are not alone. But to articulate our thoughts and put it into a discussion, that's why I am in these threads.

 

[mbpm1]

I don't agree with any of this bc I want to continue feeling superior to new people

Spoiler

Kappa

But seriously it's damn hard to get your bearings without good matchmaking in fighting games, that's for sure.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Re: learning Smash via comparison to SF-like fighting games, I don't think it's that easy since both games are cut from different cloths so it's like comparing apples and oranges in some cases. But off the top of my head some things to watch out for are
1) Smash is more "2D" than Street Fighter in a manner of speaking? Aerial options work differently in Smash due to platforms, triple jumps, etc. Being back turned isn't a disadvantage unlike Tekken since there's no "face lock" in Smash and blocking is omni-directional.
2) Having control of center stage is basically like winning neutral in SF
3) Learn yourself a ledge game. The ledge game is important when you get knocked off due to the invul window you get upon grabbing the edge. There's a bunch of mindgames that revolve around if/when/how you grab the ledge for that reason. Get acquainted with your character's recovery options.

 

[Tripon]

I decided to watch Salty Bets until I go to sleep

 

[Onemic]

Id definitely agree with Shin on this one. Shooing away those that need that little extra push to get better or get that inner drive to try and elevate their level is exactly why the FGC has the rep it has now. It's exactly why we're still at the point where fighting games, out of all other competitive genres, are the absolute worst at training, developing, and keeping new players. That attitude has to go away tbh.

 

[fader]

Id definitely agree with Shin on this one. Shooing away those that need that little extra push to get better or get that inner drive to try and elevate their level is exactly why the FGC has the rep it has now. It's exactly why we're still at the point where fighting games, out of all other competitive genres, are the absolute worst at training, developing, and keeping new players. That attitude has to go away tbh.

can I hug you?

 

[Karsticles]

Id definitely agree with Shin on this one. Shooing away those that need that little extra push to get better or get that inner drive to try and elevate their level is exactly why the FGC has the rep it has now. It's exactly why we're still at the point where fighting games, out of all other competitive genres, are the absolute worst at training, developing, and keeping new players. That attitude has to go away tbh.

Does the MOBA community really support new players these days? I got cussed out every match when I started.

 

[Sayad]

Does the MOBA community really support new players these days? I got cussed out every match when I started.

MOBA community is way more hostile than the FGC, but most people get into MOBA through playing with friends on the same team, mostly getting carried at first, it's way smoother than trying to get into FGs.

 

[Onemic]

Does the MOBA community really support new players these days? I got cussed out every match when I started.

For MOBA's, at the very least the developers support new players. Just look at DOTA2's main menu. So even if the players themselves arent as supportive as they could be, new players still have the more accessible level of support from the devs considering all they need to learn and get better at the game is right in front of them as soon as they begin playing.

FG's don't really have either. For the most part you're by yourself.

 

[Karsticles]

For MOBA's, at the very least the developers support new players. Just look at DOTA2's main menu. So even if the players themselves arent as supportive as they could be, new players still have the more accessible level of support from the devs considering all they need to learn and get better at the game is right in front of them as soon as they begin playing.

FG's don't really have either. For the most part you're by yourself.

Tell me about the menu.

 

[Dahbomb]

Does the MOBA community really support new players these days? I got cussed out every match when I started.

In game you can still get cussed out a lot but there are still enough checks and balances in the system where A) you will get matched up more appropriately to your skill level and B) there are report/mute functionality for abuse. It's not like it was in the DOTA 1 days.

The main difference though is that there are WWWWAAAYYYY more resources to learn the game than any fighter.

I want to learn how to play Razor. I start up my game and I have IN GAME guides that are rated by other users that I can over lay on to my game so I can access it while I play. The guide over lays highlights which skills you should be maxing at which level and which item you should be purchasing. There's also written text in the guide telling you how to lane, playstyle of the hero etc.

Also in the game I can go look at replays of Very Skill level games that have Razor in them. I can fast forward replay, look from perspective of the Razor player or the enemy's perspective along with like a hundred other variables you can tinker with to analyze a single game.

There are video guides linked to the character in the game's character Library as well although they are brief.

And that' just some of the stuff in-game... on the internet there's way more stuff. Far more in depth stat break down of individual character match ups, win rate %, usage %, their changes in meta popularity, their changelist for the entirety of their existence in chronological order, various stats info about the character (basic attack time, attack range, AOE markers). The character has numerous guides online both in text format and in video format.

Within the game I can also search for Coaches to help me learn the game. They can spectate me while I play and point out plays. I haven't done this myself but it is functional from what I am told. This is best done with someone on your friend's list though.

But even with all this stuff... the game has main character experience bar and randomized item drops that make you keep playing the game beyond just getting better. You can work towards acquiring rare in game cosmetics to sell to others on the Steam market. I myself have made like $80 playing the game, selling my cosmetics items that I get from playing the game.

This is why this particular game keeps growing in numbers whereas every fighting game not named Smash Melee keeps dwindling in numbers. There is a world of a difference in terms of in game infrastructure.

 

[Shackzam]

It was cool meeting infaanator (hopefully I'm spelling that right). And a few other gaffers at combo breaker. Pretty fun experience.

 

[Onemic]

Tell me about the menu.

You have your regular ranked and social matches, but you also have tons of featured links to things going around in the DOTA2 competitive community like tournaments and high level play, with in-game spectator modes to watch on the fly. You also got links to the dota 2 forums and a tab where you can learn the technical aspects of every character in the game as well as character guides.

stuff.

you explain it better than I can man, haha

 

[Karsticles]

You have your regular ranked and social matches, but you also have tons of featured links to things going around in the DOTA2 competitive community like tournaments and high level play, with in-game spectator modes to watch on the fly. You also got links to the dota 2 forums and a tab where you can learn the technical aspects of every character in the game as well as character guides.







you explain it better than I can man, haha

In game you can still get cussed out a lot but there are still enough checks and balances in the system where A) you will get matched up more appropriately to your skill level and B) there are report/mute functionality for abuse. It's not like it was in the DOTA 1 days.

The main difference though is that there are WWWWAAAYYYY more resources to learn the game than any fighter.

I want to learn how to play Razor. I start up my game and I have IN GAME guides that are rated by other users that I can over lay on to my game so I can access it while I play. The guide over lays highlights which skills you should be maxing at which level and which item you should be purchasing. There's also written text in the guide telling you how to lane, playstyle of the hero etc.

Also in the game I can go look at replays of Very Skill level games that have Razor in them. I can fast forward replay, look from perspective of the Razor player or the enemy's perspective along with like a hundred other variables you can tinker with to analyze a single game.

There are video guides linked to the character in the game's character Library as well although they are brief.

And that' just some of the stuff in-game... on the internet there's way more stuff. Far more in depth stat break down of individual character match ups, win rate %, usage %, their changes in meta popularity, their changelist for the entirety of their existence in chronological order, various stats info about the character (basic attack time, attack range, AOE markers). The character has numerous guides online both in text format and in video format.

Within the game I can also search for Coaches to help me learn the game. They can spectate me while I play and point out plays. I haven't done this myself but it is functional from what I am told. This is best done with someone on your friend's list though.

But even with all this stuff... the game has main character experience bar and randomized item drops that make you keep playing the game beyond just getting better. You can work towards acquiring rare in game cosmetics to sell to others on the Steam market. I myself have made like $80 playing the game, selling my cosmetics items that I get from playing the game.

This is why this particular game keeps growing in numbers whereas every fighting game not named Smash Melee keeps dwindling in numbers. There is a world of a difference in terms of in game infrastructure.

Thanks guys!

 

[black_vegeta]

What time is Stunfest USF4 being streamed PST?

 

[KidA Seven]

What time is Stunfest USF4 being streamed PST?

Well originally they said 1 hour ago. We're all just waiting for any info.

 

[CommandThrower]

I’ve always been of the opinion that fighting game players, whether they be new players or not, need to have the want to teach themselves, if that makes sense. Whenever a new fighting game(or some type of competitive multiplayer game) that I’m interested in playing comes out, I always seek out information myself; I almost never ask questions, I especially don’t beg for help and I seldom complain. Perhaps that’s to my detriment, but that’s how I operate. Those that have the mindset of getting good without putting in the work I feel are not really worth putting forth the effort of specifically teaching; you can put the knowledge in their head, but they have to understand that they need to put the work in. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a lot of work, but the amount of dedication somebody has will reflect in their skill, I think. That’s how I’ve always seen it.

As far as what to do about those folks who don’t want to put in the work but still want to be good, I just tell them honestly: You want to be The Beast, but you can’t be The Beast overnight. Everybody’s got to put in the hours of practice and hours of games with other folks. If they’re not down with that, then fine, I’m not going to hold that against them; they just need to understand that at that point, they really have no right to complain about their skill stagnating. Because after all, they don’t want to put the work in.

That’s where I stand on this issue, such that it is.

 

[Zissou]

Went 2-2 in the marvel tournament today and lol-2 in Xrd. Need learn the Morrigan MU better and how to... actually play Xrd, haha.

 

[alstein]

One of my issues with learning is that I often feel if I copy folks, I'll never be able to beat them. Somewhat due to copying, somewhat due to poor execution. That makes me try really hard to win in my own way, even if it's counterproductive.

It's really bad in developed games like SF4 where creativity gets beaten out of it over the years.

 

[mbpm1]

One of my issues with learning is that I often feel if I copy folks, I'll never be able to beat them. Somewhat due to copying, somewhat due to poor execution. That makes me try really hard to win in my own way, even if it's counterproductive.

It's really bad in developed games like SF4 where creativity gets beaten out of it over the years.

I'm the opposite.

I copy everyone if I like it, sometimes mid match.

 

[Zissou]

Copying without understanding the 'why' behind the original action is pretty useless anyway. See a new incoming set-up marlinpie does and think "yo swag imma do that!" is dumb, but thinking "yo that's a really good meaty set-up to catch air dashers and force them to land to eat a grounded mix-up" means you might understand what was done well enough to utilize it yourself. Copying with analysis is fine.

 

[Csr]

You can blame the casuals all you want for not wanting to learn a game. That is not going to make them change.
The idea is to make better, more fun tutorials so that casuals can find out what it is about fg's that is fun and make fg's more popular.
This is not about making people that already like competitive fg's better by spoon feeding them information.

 

[CountBlack]

someone who can read the text



I just think sometimes people don't know what they should learn. I mean look at that picture Blackule posted. A lot of people don't understand things like punishing or baiting

I'll never understand why people won't commit themselves to learning even basic things or practicing and still get mad at losing.

Over half the fun in fighting games, for me, is learning and improving.

He said THawk is -bullshit-. What will happen if he receives a comprehensive explanation of how cmd grabs can be beaten on startup, baited, punished, etc?

I have a feeling he'll say "meh, whatever, this game sucks" and go play Hearthstone.

My point is that it really depends more on the person than anything else. Making better tutorials is a great idea but I firmly believe this issue is far more psychological than logistical.

y'all really took that random tweet I took from scrub quotes serious huh

I have a feeling he'll say "meh, whatever, this game sucks" and go play Hearthstone.

Gtfo here with that. I've been playing this game consistently since release. You're the one who's said "meh, whatever, this game sucks" and moved onto whatever random fighting game that nobody plays or cares about.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Gtfo here with that. I've been playing this game consistently since release. You're the one who's said "meh, whatever, this game sucks" and moved onto whatever random fighting game that nobody plays or cares about.

yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[mbpm1]

Gtfo here with that. I've been playing this game consistently since release. You're the one who's said "meh, whatever, this game sucks" and moved onto whatever random fighting game that nobody plays or cares about.

Count taking that dig at Hearthstone hard lol

 

[CountBlack]

Count taking that dig at Hearthstone hard lol

Did I lie tho?

Do I gotta add smileys to every post to make sure y'all know to not take it serious.

really fam? really?

 

[RockTurtle]

Did I lie tho?

Do I gotta add smileys to every post to make sure y'all know to not take it serious.

really fam? really?

shoulda added some SNK gifs to bring home the point

 

[mbpm1]

Did I lie tho?

Do I gotta add smileys to every post to make sure y'all know to not take it serious.

really fam? really?

Who said I was taking it serious

 

[CountBlack]

Who said I was taking it serious

did I quote you b

Spoiler

dont say technicalities either b

 

[mbpm1]

did I quote you b

Well

Spoiler

dont say technicalities either b

Damn, OSed

 

[NEO0MJ]

Ya'll too cute.

 

[Tik-Tok]

This is what happens when steams die.... People get mad af

 

[RockTurtle]

CODY!?

 

[Jazz-ism]

serious question: is there a reason why blackule thinks hes nice?

 

[Zissou]

serious question: is there a reason why blackule thinks hes nice?

serious question 2: what is count blackule? he materialized out of the ether like 2 years into fgw and nobody batted an eye.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

serious question: is there a reason why blackule thinks hes nice?

his deejay dawg

 

[Jazz-ism]

serious question 2: what is count blackule? he materialized out of the ether like 2 years into fgw and nobody batted an eye.

i just wish he would return to the hearthstone/black culture thread nexus and stop pretending he is nice. from the way he posts i gather he only even remotely knows how to play sf4 (surprise) and he doesnt even see the value in other games that daigo and fchamp and justin etc dont tell him to play.

ofc, that describes a good chunk of the regulars here too, so i will tread lightly.

edit: implying that "no one cares" about series like KOF is not even funny its just plain ignorant.

 

[Seyavesh]

i just wish he would return to the hearthstone/black culture thread nexus and stop pretending he is nice. from the way he posts i gather he only even remotely knows how to play sf4 (surprise) and he doesnt even see the value in other games that daigo and fchamp and justin etc dont tell him to play.

ofc, that describes a good chunk of the regulars here too, so i will tread lightly.

no it's time to let the hate explode

 

[ViewtifulJC]

the bait has been cast

 

[CountBlack]

serious question: is there a reason why blackule thinks hes nice?

i just wish he would return to the hearthstone/black culture thread nexus and stop pretending he is nice. from the way he posts i gather he only even remotely knows how to play sf4 (surprise) and he doesnt even see the value in other games that daigo and fchamp and justin etc dont tell him to play.

ofc, that describes a good chunk of the regulars here too, so i will tread lightly.

I haven't played a single gaffer online or offline that has been able to beat me consistently or at all. Ask anybody here that's played me and theres a good chance it's been a wash.

who is you tho? Aren't you Deckard Cain's alt or something?

Glad you follow my posts tho