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[call_kotaku]

I've been thinking, would adding stronger automatic defensive options make fighters more approachable? Something like the neutral auto-block in Tekken but even more automatic, or maybe let people move and block at the same time (at a slower walkspeed, or even moving during blockstun). Something like the autocombos for P4A, but for defense.

Instead of giving more tools for people to punish button mashing or mindless offense, just make it so that mashing isn't rewarded even when people play vs bad players.

 

[Slamtastic]

I've been thinking, would adding stronger automatic defensive options make fighters more approachable? Something like the neutral auto-block in Tekken but even more automatic, or maybe let people move and block at the same time (at a slower walkspeed, or even moving during blockstun). Something like the autocombos for P4A, but for defense.

Instead of giving more tools for people to punish button mashing or mindless offense, just make it so that mashing isn't rewarded even when people play vs bad players.

you mean like a block button so there's no cross ups

 

[Lostconfused]

Making things simpler and easier will help people learn the game faster, but it's not going to stop new players from getting destroyed, ever.

Games have specific flow and optimal play to them that new players just won't know about. It might not even be intuitive. They are just going to keep getting destroyed until they figure out how the game should be played.

Edit: I dunno I say this because EXVS is my main game and when people react like :

I gotta ask. How is EXVS considered a fighting game? From all the streams I've watched from it, including this one, it looks like a third person shooter with a lock on system.

but the Devs promote their game like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyomhsYyik

There is such a huge disconnect its just like, what the fuck? No shit new players have no idea what to do. They'll never figure it out on their own. Then they are going to get destroyed by everyone else who knows whats up and its going to be an ugly mess. And EXVS is super damn easy to play.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I've been thinking, would adding stronger automatic defensive options make fighters more approachable? Something like the neutral auto-block in Tekken but even more automatic, or maybe let people move and block at the same time (at a slower walkspeed, or even moving during blockstun). Something like the autocombos for P4A, but for defense.

Instead of giving more tools for people to punish button mashing or mindless offense, just make it so that mashing isn't rewarded even when people play vs bad players.

That could introduce more problems than it solves. I think if they used a proper story mode to teach people they could avoid some of these issues.

 

[Kumubou]

I've been thinking, would adding stronger automatic defensive options make fighters more approachable? Something like the neutral auto-block in Tekken but even more automatic, or maybe let people move and block at the same time (at a slower walkspeed, or even moving during blockstun). Something like the autocombos for P4A, but for defense.

Instead of giving more tools for people to punish button mashing or mindless offense, just make it so that mashing isn't rewarded even when people play vs bad players.

Ehrgeiz does this, and it... kind of works? Although it's weird to be able to walk at or sidestep people while still being able to block. However, this makes lows stronger in that game because you can only block high while moving. Ehrgeiz's controls are kind of messed up, to be honest. By default, to block high you either input block and any direction or nothing at all (neutral guard). Neutral block actually blocks low and is the only way to do so.

In short: you can do it, but the whole game would need to be designed around that as a mechanic. It's not something you can just bolt onto an existing game. For examples, see the bullshit that comes up with auto-guard in SFA1 or SFxT, or step-guard in early Soul Calibur games. I would even put EDCG from VF5:FS in there, even though it's not nearly as extreme.

 

[blackadde]

I've been thinking, would adding stronger automatic defensive options make fighters more approachable? Something like the neutral auto-block in Tekken but even more automatic, or maybe let people move and block at the same time (at a slower walkspeed, or even moving during blockstun). Something like the autocombos for P4A, but for defense.

Instead of giving more tools for people to punish button mashing or mindless offense, just make it so that mashing isn't rewarded even when people play vs bad players.

sf4 is the most defensive fighter capcom has ever made. if they skew the game even further to defensive play (and slow it down in the process) i think i'm going to give up these games entirely.

if you want fighters to be more approachable you need to teach the game in digestible chunks instead of just expecting people to figure it out all on their own or dig through forums / youtube videos for guides on how to press crouch fierce when someone jumps.

a lot of new players want to always feel like they're in control of the pace of the match, but that's impossible unless you're actually winning (and you shouldn't be winning against someone better than you).

 

[DRE Fei]

sf4 is the mostif you want fighters to be more approachable you need to teach the game in digestible chunks instead of just expecting people to figure it out all on their own or dig through forums / youtube videos for guides on how to press crouch fierce when someone jumps.

Yeah, like why don't fighting games explain the game systems in detail to help people figure them out? I mean this game came out 12 years ago and nobody has caught up to it yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVSvN4NM4Ik

 

[Skab]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";164939850]Her little Mags that follow her around. She has startup when she summons them to attack which makes them fireballs instead of Stand attacks.[/QUOTE]

They function like assists in Marvel though. Do you consider those Stands?

 

[Lostconfused]

Yeah, like why don't fighting games explain the game systems in detail to help people figure them out?

Xrd has tutorials/trials for wake up reversals, punishing from block, safe jumps, throw OS, I don't think that's enough to actually do anything for new players though? I mean it certainly didn't help me, not yet anyway. You kind of need to learn how you can implement all of that in the way you play as well, not just that "hey these are some of the things you can do!".

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Making things simpler and easier will help people learn the game faster, but it's not going to stop new players from getting destroyed, ever.

Games have specific flow and optimal play to them that new players just won't know about. It might not even be intuitive. They are just going to keep getting destroyed until they figure out how the game should be played.

Edit: I dunno I say this because EXVS is my main game and when people react like :



but the Devs promote their game like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyomhsYyik

There is such a huge disconnect its just like, what the fuck? No shit new players have no idea what to do. They'll never figure it out on their own. Then they are going to get destroyed by everyone else who knows whats up and its going to be an ugly mess. And EXVS is super damn easy to play.

Holy shit the Maxi Boost UI is ugly

 

[Uraizen]

They function like assists in Marvel though. Do you consider those Stands?

Nah, assists do take time to come out in Marvel, but you never lose control of your character. His complaint is that she's vulnerable when she uses her assist because she has a start-up.

 

[Lostconfused]

Holy shit the Maxi Boost UI is ugly

They just want you to spend money on custom HUDs. And Navi, and emblems, and whatever else they can nickle and dime you for.

 

[Skab]

Nah, assists do take time to come out in Marvel, but you never lose control of your character. His complaint is that she's vulnerable when she uses her assist because she has a start-up.

Oohh, okay, I follow now.

 

[Kadey]

Who wants to help me babysit?

 

[blackadde]

Xrd has tutorials/trials for wake up reversals, punishing from block, safe jumps, throw OS, I don't think that's enough to actually do anything for new players though? I mean it certainly didn't help me, not yet anyway. You kind of need to learn how you can implement all of that in the way you play as well, not just that "hey these are some of the things you can do!".

this kind of stuff really only helps if you already understand how to play fighting games.

sf5 needs to teach you more basic concepts like:

if someone jumps at you, do this
if you need to get someone off you, do this
if someone throws a fireball, do this

 

[Smooth Operator]

this kind of stuff really only helps if you already understand how to play fighting games.

sf5 needs to teach you more basic concepts like:

if someone jumps at you, do this
if you need to get someone off you, do this
if someone throws a fireball, do this

This kind of stuff is also in GGXRD.

 

[Busaiku]

Yeah but it's anime.

 

[DRE Fei]

Xrd has tutorials/trials for wake up reversals, punishing from block, safe jumps, throw OS, I don't think that's enough to actually do anything for new players though? I mean it certainly didn't help me, not yet anyway. You kind of need to learn how you can implement all of that in the way you play as well, not just that "hey these are some of the things you can do!".

Even with something like VF4Evo's tutorial mode that explains EVERYTHING from fundamentals to advanced stuff, individual character tutorials and even a glossary of terms, it all comes down to experience. If Xrd and other games have all of that, then it just comes down to grinding out the matches so people can learn and it's not gonna happen overnight.There's only so much a game can give you up front.

 

[Kumubou]

Xrd has tutorials/trials for wake up reversals, punishing from block, safe jumps, throw OS, I don't think that's enough to actually do anything for new players though? I mean it certainly didn't help me, not yet anyway. You kind of need to learn how you can implement all of that in the way you play as well, not just that "hey these are some of the things you can do!".

There are a couple of problems with the tutorials in Xrd (and ArcSys' other games). One, they're pretty much a straight info dump, which is just going to cause people eyes to glaze over as there's no real time to digest the information. (The best/worst was how in the BlazBlue games, Rachel is insulting you the entire time through the tutorial. It's in-character with her, but brand new players aren't going to know that, either.) The other is that the game goes over the system mechanics, but it doesn't spend much time explaining why you would do a certain thing, and how the various mechanics interact in the course of a match (although Xrd does a bit of a better job doing this than the previous games).

Ultimately, I think getting new players to engage with the community and the game is far more important. It's not like LoL or Dota 2 are straightforward games to play, either.

 

[Anne]

Tutorial talk? I just filled out my FGW Bingo card.

 

[blackadde]

This kind of stuff is also in GGXRD.

yeah, kind of. there's a system tutorial (here are your buttons and how gatling combos work) and there are like 2 specific tutorials for each character there (like, here, try to get around venom throwing balls at you). but ultimately if you give that set to someone who has never played a fighting game seriously before it's just overwhelming.

i'm talking like - hey, did you know that your uppercut is invincible and beats almost every other move in the game? and that if someone jumps at you, you can press crouch fierce to almost always beat it out? or if someone is throwing fireballs, you should predict the next one and jump over it to hit them? at least then you get a sense for a gameplan for various really common situations.

it's not like in xrd they tell you things like; "i-no is a character that is meant to score a knowkdown, and then force the opponent to guess high/low block repeatedly. she has relatively poor buttons and is weak at these ranges, so get in close!"

 

[blackadde]

and while we're blabbing about tutorials and how most of them are incompetent, i'll plug my friend infil's KI guide you might have seen around the net. it does a great job of explaining the 10,000 foot view of the game and it's characters.

http://ki.infil.net/basics.html

 

[DRE Fei]

Tutorial talk? I just filled out my FGW Bingo card.

It's comments like these that really raise the discussion to a new level. Thanks NeoGAF.

 

[Anne]

It's comments like these that really raise the discussion to a new level. Thanks NeoGAF.

Don't worry, "Anne or Juicebox talks about how shit the scenes are" is on there somewhere too.

 

[SolarPowered]

There are a couple of problems with the tutorials in Xrd (and ArcSys' other games). One, they're pretty much a straight info dump, which is just going to cause people eyes to glaze over as there's no real time to digest the information. (The best/worst was how in the BlazBlue games, Rachel is insulting you the entire time through the tutorial. It's in-character with her, but brand new players aren't going to know that, either.) The other is that the game goes over the system mechanics, but it doesn't spend much time explaining why you would do a certain thing, and how the various mechanics interact in the course of a match (although Xrd does a bit of a better job doing this than the previous games).

Ultimately, I think getting new players to engage with the community and the game is far more important. It's not like LoL or Dota 2 are straightforward games to play, either.

It is very likely that a majority of the people picking up BlazBlue or Guilty Gear has some sort of experience with anime and a youthful gothic styled vampire with a haughty attitude isn't exactly an unfamiliar trope. If you want to talk about something like that pushing said people away from trying the game I have to wonder how they got past the hurdle of ninjas, squirrel underboob, beach ready mecha-ladies and butt floss pants.

I agree that BB tutorials are more of an info dump than others, though. It moves by kind of fast. Although I don't know how much things have changed for the better in Phantasma.

 

[Lostconfused]

I agree that BB tutorials are more of an info dump than others, though. It moves by kind of fast. Although I don't know how much things have changed for the better in Phantasma.

The dry as hell approach in P4U might be just a tad bit worse. Maybe not, it probably doesn't even matter.

 

[KidA Seven]

USF4 at Stunfest starts in 10 hours on capcomfighters.

1 am pacific
4 am eastern

 

[CountBlack]

realest shit ever typed b

 

[MechaX]

Nah it was always like that in EXVS.

That's why some people got super mad at GP-03 and Xi DLC. Those fucking missiles would detonate against the ground and hit you even when blocking.

Huh. Now I know why Kin hated missiles so much.

 

[Essay]

it's not like in xrd they tell you things like; "i-no is a character that is meant to score a knowkdown, and then force the opponent to guess high/low block repeatedly.

You don't think the headaches that most people have passing the "block I-No's oki" mission (#50), is a strong enough hint towards the strength of this strategy with her?

I always thought it was better to show instead of tell.

 

[shaowebb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";164939850]Her little Mags that follow her around. She has startup when she summons them to attack which makes them fireballs instead of Stand attacks.[/QUOTE]

I don't think those were inspired by stands. They seem closer to Lex Luthor's drone than to Jojo stuff. Just something to keep things safe more than actual stand style shenanigans.

 

[Anne]

I don't think those were inspired by stands. They seem closer to Lex Luthor's drone than to Jojo stuff. Just something to keep things safe more than actual stand style shenanigans.

I don't think GB cares, I think he just wants a manly game that doesn't chicken out.

 

[mbpm1]

I don't think GB cares, I think he just wants a manly game that doesn't chicken out.

Us GeeBees couldn't ask for a better representative...a man for the PEOPLE

 

[Rhapsody]

Well when those devs nerf a character, they generally hobble that character by over nerfing. This always happens in all game. Rip Rogue and Nercro in dfo until lately

I wouldn't say she's crippled to where they deleted a character. That's how I see a lot of people here are acting about her.
In Japan, I can see people switching. You're playing the best of the best at arcades.

In the US, it's not going to matter for your average level of play. Hell, you're even seeing Potemkins here get top 8.

 

[Csr]

The style of all these tutorials feels like a chore to most people. Especially for casuals. I think some other way must be found.

 

[LegatoB]

I wouldn't say she's crippled to where they deleted a character. That's how I see a lot of people here are acting about her.
In Japan, I can see people switching. You're playing the best of the best at arcades.

In the US, it's not going to matter for your average level of play. Hell, you're even seeing Potemkins here get top 8.

A lot of people, whether or not they're proper judges of their own skill level, their ability to improve, or whether their environment is actually conductive to sufficient growth, are discouraged to find out that a character is considered to have a "hard time" at higher levels. Can't really blame them for that.

 

[Anne]

I wouldn't say she's crippled to where they deleted a character. That's how I see a lot of people here are acting about her.
In Japan, I can see people switching. You're playing the best of the best at arcades.

In the US, it's not going to matter for your average level of play. Hell, you're even seeing Potemkins here get top 8.

I mean, Potemkins still bust ass in Japan too. It's not even a "competition locks you out" type deal, it's just a lot of crazy effort. Like, take an S tier character who needed some work, kill her neutral in a way so she has to relearn all her MUs and make her setplay and conversions worse. You could put in all that work to be B tier in Guilty Gear and have Zato or somebody randomly kill you.

Or pick Elphelt, Millia, or Sol and be top 5 in a week.

You can do it, just nobody really wants to, and nobody looking to win is really about playing those odds.

 

[Seyavesh]

people who cry about their top tier character getting nerfed to a/b tier are dumb. i would not be surprised if there was a common trend of overreaction to their character's retarded tools getting nerfed by the slightest.

like, i just get horrible flashbacks to 'fatneto' or 'wolverine is low tier now' levels of horseshit when people complain about any of their top tier chars getting nerfed

it's probably a universal competitive game thing in terms of commonality but it's annoying cuz other guys have to reconcile with their character choices too when they fall in and out of favor. whatever complaints from those folks feel less egregious than those complaining about their top tier char getting slightly dinged

seriously though fuck those 'wolverine is low tier now how's he gonna get in?!' dudes they should've been aborted at birth

 

[Skilletor]

seriously though fuck those 'wolverine is low tier now how's he gonna get in?!' dudes they should've been aborted at birth

Wtf. Lol

 

[Kadey]

realest shit ever typed b

Can't even read it you dummy.

 

[CountBlack]

Can't even read it you dummy.

get glasses b

 

[Kadey]

Text size looks like pixels on my 4k monitor stoopid.

 

[Emperor Bohe]

realest shit ever typed b

what is this an image for ants b

 

[Lostconfused]

Text size looks like pixels on my 4k monitor stoopid.

Maybe don't use a 4K monitor for productivity tasks? Or really any display with a high DPI.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Can't even read it you dummy.

>You're allowed to play as T.Hawk in online ranked matches

Fucking bullshit. I don't know how that guy isn't banned. He grabs you out of everything and can just dive all over the place and even has a shoryuken. He's fucking retarded.

 

[roflwaffles]

This stream is as dead as Marvel.

 

[Emperor Bohe]

Maybe don't use a 4K monitor for productivity tasks? Or really any display with a high DPI.

it also is small as hell on my imac

 

[Anne]

I heard a random online player wandered into our arcade today and challenged Wilson to an MKX FT5 for $20 a match.

I'm having trouble processing this lol

 

[mbpm1]

I heard a random online player wandered into our arcade today and challenged Wilson to an MKX FT5 for $20 a match.

I'm having trouble processing this lol

Who

 

[Azure J]

people who cry about their top tier character getting nerfed to a/b tier are dumb. i would not be surprised if there was a common trend of overreaction to their character's retarded tools getting nerfed by the slightest.

like, i just get horrible flashbacks to 'fatneto' or 'wolverine is low tier now' levels of horseshit when people complain about any of their top tier chars getting nerfed

it's probably a universal competitive game thing in terms of commonality but it's annoying cuz other guys have to reconcile with their character choices too when they fall in and out of favor. whatever complaints from those folks feel less egregious than those complaining about their top tier char getting slightly dinged

seriously though fuck those 'wolverine is low tier now how's he gonna get in?!' dudes they should've been aborted at birth

LMAO @ the vitriol, this is nearing bitchslapping family tree levels of funny.

That said, as a guy who went through most of Marvel 3's meta, nothing was as simultaneously amusing and annoying as the Dante stuff between Vanilla and Ultimate. It got so bad that legitimate concerns about the character's design would trigger 10 pages of vitriol because of people getting assmad about how vanilla Dante was blessed by God and could think you out of existence off a s.L.

On the other side of the spectrum were the people who thought a character with a half dozen 360 degree attacks, some of the greatest assists (including one that is the second best vertical assist & best lock down assist in the game free), terrifying neutral and a mess of character specific BS that would ensure he'd have a spot in every meta to come in Marvel could be anything less than top 10-12 on an individual grading rubric.