-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Fighting Games Weekly | May 18-24 | Forget it Jake, it's Capcom Town
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fixed
sixteen-bit
Member
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm seeing a lot of "smh" and "how dare you" posts, but no posts actually challenging Karst's with a counterargument.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
As someone who plays both his statement is half opinion and "half this shit doesnt even make sense wtf is wrong with you?"
BlazBlue is better than both of them though in both ways.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Killer Instinct might be the most unwatchable fighting game of all time at medium stream quality.
I'm like a little kid trying to watch channels his parents didn't pay for through the noise on his tv.
I'm like a little kid trying to watch channels his parents didn't pay for through the noise on his tv.
Yes.
I finally got free of school and I'm eager to play both myself. Need to finally get to a place of competency in Xrd.
That said, Marvel vs. Comcast: New Age of ISPs is too good.
sixteen-bit
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";165057813]Killer Instinct might be the most unwatchable fighting game of all time at medium stream quality.
I'm like a little kid trying to watch channels his parents didn't pay for through the noise on his tv.[/QUOTE]
DEM PARTICLES ain't good for compression
I'm like a little kid trying to watch channels his parents didn't pay for through the noise on his tv.[/QUOTE]
DEM PARTICLES ain't good for compression
El Sabroso
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";165057813]Killer Instinct might be the most unwatchable fighting game of all time at medium stream quality.
I'm like a little kid trying to watch channels his parents didn't pay for through the noise on his tv.[/QUOTE]
yup game needs a lot of bitrate to optimize quality on stream, more or the same as marvel
I'm like a little kid trying to watch channels his parents didn't pay for through the noise on his tv.[/QUOTE]
yup game needs a lot of bitrate to optimize quality on stream, more or the same as marvel
BumblebeeCody
Member
Coffeeling
Member
The Lone Dragon
Member
The original post didn't offer any depth or explanation in its claim...why would you hold the replies to a higher standard?
CountBlack
Member
this channel is low-key great
and Choco ( I assume) has been uploading off stream Stunfest matches
Infil pocketing his prize
oh my days
and Choco ( I assume) has been uploading off stream Stunfest matches
Infil pocketing his prize
oh my days
Anyone have a gif of that sick combo he did you momochi?
Holy Order Sol
Member
theprodigy
Member
how do you know it's 1500
Karsticles
Member
Don't get me wrong, I like Xrd. I really like freedom of movement in my games, though. Continual directional control makes the neutral a lot more satisfying, and the prevalence of tridashes and cancelable dashes in general is why I like Marvel so much. I plan on playing Xrd a lot over the summer, but I need to get Mewtwo down first. I can't learn multiple things at once. I don't think folks need to be offended.
Re: depth. I define depth as the sum of the number of factors to consider in a given moment. I.e. how many things you have to think about in any given moment of play. This is why chess is deeper than checkers. I plan on making a video about this in the future when discussing complexity vs. Depth. Xrd is way more complex than Smash, but not as deep, especially relative to its complexity.
Yeah, nothing really worth responding to.
loool
shaowebb
Member
Dem particles ain't good for a lot sadly. They looked amazing to show off "next gen" and such but then It became very apparent very quick that having a ton of emitters that throws stuff around just plain blocks the view of the characters making things harder to read. From Hit sparks that cover up body parts completely to shadowy smoke enveloping men in dark stages KI has a lot of form over functionality issues.
Its amazing to show off but it makes it rougher on the players out there. You can make hit sparks that flare light and such but you need to add some time on the alpha channel to make that stuff semi transparent enough that while flashy it doesn't hide things.
Watch the hit sparks in TvC to see it done well, then UMVC3 to start seeing it go a bit on the high end (we've all seen the posts from casuals describing the game as a billion flashing colors they couldn't keep up with. We know its true.) and then finally KI to see it gone completely overboard.
Example 1:TvC Hit Sparks (occassionally flashy, but generally you can still see the action and keep up)
Example 2: UMVC3 Hit Sparks (getting loud. Sometimes blocks view and makes things hard to keep up with.)
Example 3: Killer Instinct Hit Spark Particle emissions ( very loud. Often you will notice entire characters are hard to read in shadow states in the stages and this isn't even the worst color alts and stage combinations. Particle emissions+screen shake+ plus distortion waves actively progress toward the camera to make the action seem louder like its coming at the player but it can be disorienting. If faster games like UMVC3 had stuff like this it'd be much harder to keep up than it already is.)
Those are my thoughts on it. Dem particles are pretty and so are dem hit sparks, but you should always try to balance the action with making it functional. What makes me put KI over Marvel is that a lot of effects in KI come out on block or whif where as much of what you see in the UMVC3 video is only on hit stuff which in general means its too late to be using that for reads as you are in hit stun...if effects like that were ALWAYS present though even on whif or block in UMVC3 like in KI with some tools it'd be much harder on the players.
Form over functionality people; screen shake, particles, light flashing on hit sparks...its all good until you are actually making the attacks folks need to see take a backseat to the game trying to "sell" the action. Players need to read the action more than be swept away by its intensity. You can still sweep players up in the intensity of a fight without throwing functionality under the bus.
"How many things you have to think about in a given moment of play" is very vague and I don't see how a definition like that can be used to separate fighting games based on depth...could you please explain further?
I do agree that gear for example is way too (artificially) complex, with things like variable wakeup timings for example. They don't add to the depth but are just another barrier. Another criticism I have is that arc sys games should be moving forward as a whole woth certain design concepts. In the case of xrd/blaz/p4/unib we can see some strange design differences. For example, in blaz persona and unib, damage values are listed alongside the combo counter, giving everyone a clear idea of the value being dealt....so why not xrd?
However, this was not the nature of your original post, and you know this. You pay profeas or beefs rent or something, idk what kind of partnership yall have for him to be jumping in defending you, but surely that individual as well can see this was not the original nature of your post. Thus, when we see things like
In response to posts expressing dissatisfaction with your shallow expression of ideas, surely you can understand why I roll my eyes. Same song and dance in fgw, starring the usual suspects.
that said I look forward to that video you will make and I also look forward to seeing the disheartened looks on blacules neogaf groupies when I take his cash and free neogaf of his presence
Lmao we just had a discussion on this too.
We need to go oldschool, or Mexican- or Oldschool Mexican
KOF98 FT10, when you lose 5 you get busted open over your head, loser's mother gets her head shaved.
We just had a discussion on it in one of these thread.
And most people agreed it is indeed a "win more" mechanic and doesn't really help out new players at all.
Coffeeling
Member
They're in the same ballpark - about 11-14ms of extra lag compared to the earliest-generation Q4 board which is blazing fast. Modern Qanbas are pretty snappy on 360, a bit slowish on PS3.
Ugh. My Q4 is kinda busted right now, but I'm gonna need a new stick for Evo next year (I'm finally planning on going- may be laid off by then so I'll have time) Want to do Evo before I hit 40.
Hopefully something better comes out this year.
there was an article spooky talked about where the director of SF2 talked about why he put stun in the game, I cannot find it though if anyone knows the article.
Juicebox_FGC
Member
KOF13 - Round starts. Kyo vs Kyo.
As P1 Kyo, you have to consider the opponent trying:
1) a hyperhop CD to stop forward movement you might make
2) a full jump or super jump normal if they try to go in
3) running at you
4) HCB+K (similar to option 3, but faster and harder to anticipate)
These are all immediately threatening options that must be considered at that moment in that matchup. There are, of course, more options, but those other options are not immediately threatening i.e. they don't force a response from you to avoid damage and/or blockstun.
Now let's consider:
SF4 - Round starts. Ryu vs Ryu
As P1 Ryu, you have to have an answer for:
1) a jump
2) a dash
...that's it. Anything that isn't one of these options doesn't require a response. A hadoken is meaningless chip (at round start), so would a super. None of Ryu's other tools have enough range without first dashing to force anything. Without a hard read, there is practically no risk at round start and very few active decisions need to be made, especially if either of you are good enough to antiair the jump -on reaction- with stHK or walking shoryuken.
------
This example illustrates that in these two matchups one has more "depth" at round start because of "How many things you have to think about in a given moment of play".
Granted, there are other matchups in SF4 and also in KOF, where options are more or less numerous. Also there are other moments of play where the options change, such as when you can no longer take chip damage without dying.
Juicebox_FGC
Member
Honestly Marvel is up there. You can adjust distance before round start, you can call assist at round start, you have to consider what happens if you both call an assist at the same time, you have to avoid throw but also not get opened up... It all overlaps and the rabbit hole gets deep very quick.
But then you die very quickly and generally in only one combo. Talking about neutral is one of those things a lot of people just don't know how to do.
Hulk is terrifying man. No one should ever have to go through playing against a character like him. One hit in, you are dead, like the rest of the cast but Hulk seems a lot more terrifying to me, and sometimes meter isn't even needed!
Don't fear the Gamma
He just has too many options in that position.
1) Cr.L at start of round (weak option as it loses other faster normals but someone doing a late up back can get caught by it if he tries to out meta himself)
2) st.H option select with ground grab (beats some normals with armor and also gets the ground throw although ground throw is basically his weakest option so he always does it just outside that range)
3) j.H option select air throw (very dangerous, both options lead to dead character)
4) Dash up cross over j.S (the move crosses up if he dashes in front, he uses assist to cover himself)
5) Ground command throw (hard read if he thinks you are going to just take the ground throw)
6) Anti air command throw (if he thinks you are going to jump and tech the air throw)
7) Anti-air Gamma Charge (double armor against faster normals characters, leads to ground bounce)
8) Forward double Gamma Charge (catches people on the back air dash like Morrigan)
9) Gamma Crush (beats every option because it's fully invincible but it's a waste of 1 bar and is unsafe if you miss it)
10) Do one of the 9 options above, XFC out of it to try to make another hard read on the opponent (maximum bet 1% type gambit that can potentially win you or lose the game. You have probably seen these "random" early round XFC by KBR that you think "oh look Marvel is so random" but he's operating on next level yomi betting his options on the play)
This is all in combination with Haggar coming out so say you tech the air throw, you might be caught mashing the tech and then get hit by Lariat.
Sometimes he might mix it up with double Gamma Charge forward covered by Drones. He puts you in a bad situation.
Against shorter characters his dash can actually go to the other side and he might do a gimmick cross up with an assist.
His final option that makes Shuma very strong with Hulk is that with a ground throw he can call Mystic Ray and if he knows the person is taking the ground throw he can call both out and pick up after a ground throw using Mystic Ray OTG pick up.
hulk at the start of the match is a true asshole
you can't even outjump/get away from him immediately because his jump goes super fucking far so you actually have to fake him out by doing jump back->walk forward to go under his jump-> immediately hold jump back to gain some space and even then it only works for some characters (not to mention it only generates enough space to get you out of the throw/low/airthrow mixup)
even doing the plinkdash throw os backwards will get you hit by anti-air gamma charge so it only covers some of the options vs putting yourself at risk when normally trying to counter em
youll see throw tech or backdash->jump a lot when dudes get away and it's specifically because they're using the option that on paper covers the most possible escapes
but then youll see them get blasted by aa gamma charge and its like "what the fuck why did he stop blocking/start challenging hulk" but that's actually what's happening
you can't even outjump/get away from him immediately because his jump goes super fucking far so you actually have to fake him out by doing jump back->walk forward to go under his jump-> immediately hold jump back to gain some space and even then it only works for some characters (not to mention it only generates enough space to get you out of the throw/low/airthrow mixup)
even doing the plinkdash throw os backwards will get you hit by anti-air gamma charge so it only covers some of the options vs putting yourself at risk when normally trying to counter em
youll see throw tech or backdash->jump a lot when dudes get away and it's specifically because they're using the option that on paper covers the most possible escapes
but then youll see them get blasted by aa gamma charge and its like "what the fuck why did he stop blocking/start challenging hulk" but that's actually what's happening
The Lone Dragon
Member
In theory, it's another balancing mechanic. Usually characters who have to eat a lot of hits (grapplers, for example) have high stun thresholds so that they don't get stunned as easily.
Likewise, characters who have really good keep away/mobility or do major damage have low stun thresholds to counter their advantages.
People can argue about whether it works well...but, in THEORY it's another meter to manage and another strategy you can use to win a fight. Go for damage? Or go for stun, which might lead to EVER MORE damage? Some characters are better at the former...others are better at the latter.
It's like guard meter.
Real talk, round start Hulk is like the Mario Kart version of round start Wolverine. With the latter, you know you win if you do X (get away from him urley) and lose (your character or the round) if he stays on you. Hulk is literally pray to RNGesus that you both tech the grab and get away from OS s.H the god. :lol
shaowebb
Member
I am not a friend of Dizzy states. Putting them in is just an easier way to force matches to be onesided. Its pretty dumb IMO. It rewards entirely too much, its not really hype, and it throws the ability to create a comeback moment under the bus for just letting whoever is dominating be allowed to dominate more for free. Its pretty much a round if you net the things because the runback requires you to pretty well perfect the rest of the round if you are even alive after you get dizzied. This and guard breaks that leave folks stunned are both bad IMO. They lead to one sided matches, and overly rewarding folks who are already getting hits, meter, and damage on their opponents. They don't need anything else IMO. They earned enough so why hold their hand when they obviously got things under control at the moment.
ShinMaruku
Member
Especially in sf4 dizzy is just for styling on people. When I get dizzy I just put the stick down, my turn it over. 
Holy Order Sol
Member
Yatagarasu does it in an interesting way. Only the first hit in a combo deals stun. If you do end up dizzied it means you really got fucked in neutral.
Not that I think that there's a problem with stun the way it's usually done, except for the fact that the opponent can drop out of combos entirely when they reach that point. 3rd Strike (and Yata IIRC) got it right.
Not that I think that there's a problem with stun the way it's usually done, except for the fact that the opponent can drop out of combos entirely when they reach that point. 3rd Strike (and Yata IIRC) got it right.
Professor Beef
Banned
Troll opinion or not, I just hate "smh/how dare you" as a response to someone's stance.
SMH.... how DARE you have that stance!
Karsticles
Member
All I said was that Smash was better and deeper. I explained why I think it is better, and why I think it is deeper.
I will try to explain a bit more about my concept of depth: in any given moment of a fighting game, you have a set of actions to choose from. The more considerations you have to make, the deeper your thinking must be. For example, chess makes you consider the effects of any given move on 32 pieces with different movesets, the response your opponent will make, your response to that, etc.
In checkers, if you can capture a piece, you MUST capture it. This is a reduction in depth, because there are moments where you can completely control your opponent's activity, thus limiting the number of considerations to make.
In fighting games, combos are almost always inherently a reduction in depth. The only fighting games that this may not be true in are Skullgirls and Smash. The first, because combos are really only gateways to resets, and Smash, because of DI changing your decision-making process on the fly. Contrast this with most Marvel combos, where both players turn off their brains until a character dies. The only basic consideration to be made in a Marvel combo is at the optimal reset point of a combo, most often shown off by FChamp in his Magneto combos. Throw reset, TAC, or aerial reset is a question that comes to mind for one brief second. Then you either get to watch another long and mindless combo, or you return to the neutral.
I think Smash has a ton of depth primarily because of how aerial play works. If you jump in Street Fighter, you have a handful of aerials to choose from (or none of them), but that is the only decision you have to make once you jump in Street Fighter. You jumped, and for the next 60 frames or so there isn't much you can do. You have locked most of your options out.
Anime fighters like Xrd add another level of depth by adding air dashes and double jumps. Jumping is no longer a full lock-out on neutral options, but actually opens up a new string of possibilities. I consider this a step forward in game design, like checkers to chess. Marvel adds tridashes, which adds further depth.
Assists add an incredible degree of depth because they are so flexible in their contribution. Meter, bursts, and character-specific mechanics like Dormammu Dark Spells or Rachel's Wind all increase depth because they are not only additional considerations, but they also have prolonged effects on the game, like moving a pawn forward in chess.
In Smash, there is a ton of depth simply because when you jump, you have directional control over your character to a very significant degree. You are completely in control of your aerial spacing through decisions you make. Aside from flight characters in Marvel and Skullgirls, this mechanic is not present in fighting games (and Ermac in MKX). For every frame of Smash, you must judge the spacing of your character and move to optimally adjust it. PLUS, you can fast fall and double jump, to adjust your time spent in the air.
While Xrd has air dashes, and Smash usually does not, the moment-to-moment consideration of aerial spacing provides a higher density of depth over a period of time. Plus, in Xrd, you just sit and get your ass kicked once you are hit. The optimal choice in most Xrd combos is to go for a knockdown at the end instead of a reset, because FD covers most reset options, and air grab resets just lead to the same hard knockdown you would have gotten anyway. Xrd's reset options are generally pretty shallow.
Smash gives you control during the entire time you are being hit by a combo through DI. You can even end combos earlier based on DI decisions you make. No other fighting game gives you this much control while you are getting your butt kicked, and I think all fighters should embrace a defensive mechanic of some kind that is similar to this one. Thus, you even have to make considerations in Smash on any given frame while you are being hit, which is not the case in Xrd.
That is a basic rundown of why I think Smash is deeper than Xrd, and most other fighting games. My goal isn't to insult Xrd, or any other fighter. I try to play everything because I love fighting games, but I also try to understand what separates fighters from one another in terms of their gameplay offering. Smash 4 might be a step down from Melee in executional requirements and speed, but it is still part of a series that offers a lot that isn't seen in other fighters.
Also, QisTopTier just talks shit about any game he sucks at. He is free as a bird at Marvel and Smash
I agree with JuiceBox and you. I would create two kinds of depth, though: theoretical depth, which is the sum total of all considerations that COULD be made, and effective depth, which is the sum total of all considerations worth considering during play. At the start of a Marvel round, Morrigan using her command grab is a part of a theoretical depth calculation, but not an effective depth calculation.
I actually have an idea to mathematically create "depth" scores for various fighting games.
