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[Sayah]

So do you guys think Marvel would be a lot bigger than it already is if it didn't have shitass netcode? Marvel is almost unplayable online.

I don't think there's just one single thing that's responsible for KOF not being as big as people would like. It's a lot of different things mixed together. Though yeah, the netcode being terribad is one of them. On the other hand, BB/Persona/Tekken have godlike netcode.

I don't think netcode has much to do with it. Tekken 6 has absolutely terrible netcode and it's STILL active online. Just played some online games yesterday in fact after not having touched the game since September.

Though, Marvel netcode is average, I think. Not too bad but also not good/great.

 

[Karsticles]

So do you guys think Marvel would be a lot bigger than it already is if it didn't have shitass netcode? Marvel is almost unplayable online.

I don't think it would be a huge factor for Marvel, but it would help a bit.

Some people (on GAF as well) think Marvel's netcode is perfectly fine, though.

They might just play people with exceptional connections. There are 2-3 people on GAF that feel like offline play to me. For the most part, I think those people have just never (or rarely) played offline, or aren't skilled enough to tell the difference. I've seen Doom infinites in heavy lag that I drop MMHS in.

 

[Grecco]

CD Jr is mad about the scheduling...despite the fact that he wasn't going to go initially and didn't bother to do any sort of research whatsoever.

But fuck Keits, of course.

CD jr went to ufgt?

 

[Dahbomb]

Netcode obviously helps.

 

[diztrukted]

i can't seem to get an archived version of the OBS broadcast

 

[Terareflection]

Mentlegen, a scrub here. Sony of Europe is running a sale on fighting games, and I fancy a fighting game. I've already got Mortal Kombat, thanks to PlayStation Plus, so which out of that list is worth bothering with (again, using PS+ pricing). Single player existing preferable, since I'm about to go offline for an unknown amount of time.

If there was an ASW game I would recommend that since you are going offline, however there isn't so I can't really recommend any of them since the bulk of of the single player in most of these is trials(SF4), arcade mode(3-D games), or a really short story mode in KOF's case.

 

[Delusibeta]

If there was an ASW game I would recommend that since you are going offline, however there isn't so I can't really recommend any of them since the bulk of of the single player in most of these is trials(SF4), arcade mode(3-D games), or a really short story mode in KOF's case.

I've got Blazblue Extend Vita, so I'm good on that front. Might pick up Double Dragon Neon, because WayForward, but not sure about the others because of aforementioned scrubbiness.

 

[Tallshortman]

Marvel 3 came out in 2011. The expectation at the time was to stream almost the entire SF4 tournament, pool matches and all. Now we're stepping on each other toes trying to balance a dozen fighters but a couple of years ago, you got extreme tension for trying to impose on SF4 in any way. Marvel 3 wasn't magically granted prime time.

Marvel 3 was always right after or right before SF4. It was definitely granted good stream times very early on, Marvel never started off as a black sheep of fighting games. No one said when's mahvel because marvel got 9AM top 8. Like I said, it started because of people getting bored of SF4 being shown so much, not because Marvel was getting shitty top 8 times which is exactly what Injustice players were upset about. I don't think anyone cared that pools for it were on the second stream.

 

[Tyrant Rave]

Solar, Q, etc. - what's the best way to approach learning GGXAR?

Definitely watch the videos Joule linked to. It's a pretty character-specific game, so after watching those videos and getting a feel for the mechanics, I'd recommend finding a few characters you're interested in and check out Dustloop. The forum has great resources on almost every character and covers most topics for them.

 

[Passive Assassin]

It'd be a lot better if the characters flashed blue during the frc window instead of the input bar so I could more quickly recognize and just see when it is. Looking through the frame data gives you general idea (like Baiken's j.D's frc is from frames 9-11) but it'd be easier if I could just see it instead.





This video linked by Q in the last thread is a pretty good run through of all the basics. There's also a series of short character videos being put out to give people an idea of how these characters are played. Beyond that what sort of issues are you having with the game if any? I'm sure someone here can help you out.

Ahh yisss. Thanks for the links.

 

[alstein]

I don't think netcode has much to do with it. Tekken 6 has absolutely terrible netcode and it's STILL active online. Just played some online games yesterday in fact after not having touched the game since September.

Though, Marvel netcode is average, I think. Not too bad but also not good/great.

Wow, T6 is still active? I thought TTT2 would have obsoleted it, and it's not like TTT2 isn't bargain bin by now.

Mentlegen, a scrub here. Sony of Europe is running a sale on fighting games, and I fancy a fighting game. I've already got Mortal Kombat, thanks to PlayStation Plus, so which out of that list is worth bothering with (again, using PS+ pricing). Single player existing preferable, since I'm about to go offline for an unknown amount of time.

For single-player fighter- Soul Calibur 5 might be a good choice, since they went the VF4Evo route in one of its offline modes, where the AI is pretty good. The game's story crap is dull, but the dress-up will be fun (download the DLC packs if they're on sale if you're interested in that), but in terms of playing the AI, I think SC5 may be the best game this gen for that.

For story purposes, BBCSEX would be best, and if you're an Arc player, I suspect it will get you somewhat ready for CP when that comes out. (though Europe may never get it until 2015 or never) If that is out, there's always Persona, but Euros should boycott that game given how shabbily it was treated in Europe.

KOF might be good for learning execution, but it's AI is weak and story mode is meh.

If you think you'll be able to play folks offline who aren't at your level- pick a game you suck at.

 

[Shouta]

Games with good netcode dont get played

This is the truth. It's actually really scary when you think about it.

 

[Infinite]

This is the truth. It's actually really scary when you think about it.

I'm not sure about that. People hardly play KoF

 

[alstein]

Games with good netcode dont get played

The two things that I think kill off games competitively in terms of tourney numbers are good netcode (So you don't have to get off your couch to get comp) and tough execution (pot monsters prefer lower hanging fruit) KOF- it takes 2-3 hours a week at minimum of practice to keep your KOF skills.

The one game with good netcode that I think still gets play at tournies is Persona, and that's largely because it's a very low maintenance fighter.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

i can't seem to get an archived version of the OBS broadcast

I think they put their archives on youtube.

Edit: Boon tweeted a rejected boxart for MK vs DC, with a darker tone they ended up not being able to use.

 

[Shito]

And netcode is a small factor in whether games stay alive, I agree with you. SCV fizzled out in weeks, KoF made it about a year, SG packed it up in a few months, etc. I don't buy that argument. But I can't really single out what was most influential in the downturn for KoF.

I wouldn't say it's a small factor, I'd say nowadays netcode is a requirement for your game to settle in. A good netcode won't guarantee you anything, but without it your game has all the reasons to get dropped hard and quick, unless you have something really special going for you.
The way I see it is...
* MvC3's netcode is not THAT crappy: not good, but not terribad neither. It's an "old days" netcode, and it suffers for it, but it doesn't make the game "unplayable". MvC3 online is a different game than MvC3 offline, but it's still playable. It got a huge player base because it's the sequel of MvC2, and a pretty good sequel.
* SCV died quickly because the game in itself is not very good. The netcode is good, but the game is quite meh, so there goes...
* KOF is just the opposite: the game is hella good, but the netcode is probably one of the worst there is. I'd say for this particular game, the bad netcode played a big part in why it never really caught up, along with its reputation of being complicated (and it is, to a certain extent: the 4 different types of jumps can be a bit daunting).
* BB/P4A both have an amazing netcode, while being pretty good games (well, depending on the version for BB), but suffer the infamous reputation of the "animey air dash fighters" in the west.
* TTT2 is a good game with a good netcode, so it gets people playing it. Simple as that.
* SF4 is Street Fighter so it gets a free pass whatever it does. This is probably the only fighting licence whose attendance is pretty much guaranted.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Marvel 3 was always right after or right before SF4. It was definitely granted good stream times very early on, Marvel never started off as a black sheep of fighting games. No one said when's mahvel because marvel got 9AM top 8. Like I said, it started because of people getting bored of SF4 being shown so much, not because Marvel was getting shitty top 8 times which is exactly what Injustice players were upset about. I don't think anyone cared that pools for it were on the second stream.

I think you're taking the comparison too literal. The point is if your game is going to be "the biggest game in the fgc" like Sabin wants it to be, then most of that will happen organically. Overall you and many others are putting too much weight in one weekend event, just because things weren't picture perfect. I think it's pretty funny how so many guys are on tilt for a game that wasn't even an Evo game until a couple of weeks ago. But luckily for you guys there are many events each year, and the viewing audience for streams is fickle/forgettable enough to the point where the previous major doesnt mean nearly as much as the most recent one.

Marvel never started off as a black sheep of fighting games. Hahaha, okay we'll just have to agree on to disagree on this one.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

EDIT 2: I'm gonna put this at the top. Below are my opinions. I could be very wrong. Just how I feel.

Those same problems plague SF and Marvel, in all honestly. The real reason is that the netcode is total shit.

As stated above, good netcode means you don't have to attend tournaments. Bad netcode means that you have to go to local meetups to play. Obviously there are other factors (e.g. popularity of game), but generally good netcode = just play online all day. Even a lot of the BlazBlue community has told me that to my face. We have a lot of BlazBlue players in Arkansas. Getting them to come to a meetup? Impossible lol.

Yeah KOF is not that complex of a fighter. The netcode turned me off the game though. If it was good, I doubt I would be playing much else.

In b4 someone who has never played KOF13 brings up the combo trials... again.

Absolutely true. It's one of the LEAST character-specific games I've ever played.

Hopefully the Steam release (when it happens) will have some new netcode opportunities. I wish gaming in general wasn't so online-centric that it's the primary reason not to play a game, but that's another discussion.

It's possible KoF isn't that hard or complex. It definitely has a reputation of being that way. This is obviously just my opinion, but there are a LOT of mechanics in the game that you have to figure out before you're competent enough to play. There are more types of jumps than most Street Fighter characters have special moves. Also, you have to learn THREE characters and you have to be able to play them each competently. It's not like Marvel where you can do A, B, C, S, hold up, B, B, C, S, land, super with pretty much the entire cast (AFAIK; again, I'm ignorant to the game). It definitely doesn't have the assist factor which means you can get away with only knowing two characters or X Factor where you can win just by having Vergil in the back. It sounds like I'm encouraging lazy play, but let's be honest. People don't want to spend a ton of time just to get into the game so they can later figure out if they like it or not. Games nowadays are about fast results. You can get that with Marvel and Street Fighter. I don't know if you can get the same thing from King of Fighters without putting a lot of time into it. It just has this intimidating reputation.

Marvel online is basically a completely different game from Marvel offline. It's playable, but some serious adjustments need to be made.

Magneto Fly Loops into Hypergrav loops turn into magic series combos online. I wish I were kidding.

EDIT: In regards to netcode, I think a good netcode is only necessary if a game isn't that popular to begin with. That way the small pockets from NY can play the small pockets in FL who can play the small pockets in California. If a game is popular, then there will be enough people where local meetups can happen. Marvel's one of the main games in Arkansas and the netcode is ass. BlazBlue also has a "community" but they don't really show up to meetups or events so I'm not sure how "alive" you would consider that game.

 

[Shito]

As stated above, good netcode means you don't have to attend tournaments. Bad netcode means that you have to go to local meetups to play. Obviously there are other factors (e.g. popularity of game), but generally good netcode = just play online all day. Even a lot of the BlazBlue community has told me that to my face. We have a lot of BlazBlue players in Arkansas. Getting them to come to a meetup? Impossible lol.

It's not that simple.
While it is certainly true for certain people, you also have the opposite happening: bad netcode means some people without a local scene won't play the game at all, and thus will never have the chance to try to attend a tournament one day.

Games with good netcode dont get played

SF4 has a good (enough) netcode, yet it's played to hell.
The games you're thinking about have other reasons for not getting played, with more weight to them than just "they have a good netcode". And the ones getting played have other reasons than "bad netcode".

 

[Shouta]

I'm not sure about that. People hardly play KoF

Just because you have bad netcode doesn't mean the game gets played. =P

Anyway, too much AE and UMVC3. More people need to play other fighting games.

 

[Rhapsody]

Some people (on GAF as well) think Marvel's netcode is perfectly fine, though.

I'm always amazed when people feel that way. Even BB/P4A annoys me aside from those with really stable connections. I always feel like I'm playing a different game. : /

 

[soakrates]

SCV isn't what I'd call dead. It doesn't get huge numbers, but it has a sizeable community of dedicated players and it has seen a bit of a resurgence in the last few months. It's a good game, but some people still can't get over their characters not being included and casuals can't stop crying about the story mode.

Looks like we're done for the night Sorry

No worries. Hope y'all enjoyed it at least. Online or offline, there just needs to be people playing.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

It's not that simple.
While it is certainly true for certain people, you also have the opposite happening: bad netcode means some people without a local scene won't play the game at all, and thus will never have the chance to try to attend a tournament one day.


SF4 has a good (enough) netcode, yet it's played to hell.
The games you're thinking about have other reasons for not getting played, with more weight to them than just "they have a good netcode". And the ones getting played have other reasons than "bad netcode".

Nah I agree. A less popular game (e.g. Skullgirls) needs great netcode. It doesn't yet have the population to sustain local meetups on a national scale. On the other hand, Street Fighter, Marvel, Injustice, etc. have the numbers to do so. That being said, I firmly believe that (in addition to raw numbers) there's a strong correlation between netcode and numbers in tournament (sorry if this last part is confusing; I don't mean games with great netcode don't get played at all. I mean that they don't get played as much offline and in tournaments, thus causing a chain reaction which eventually kills the game). So yeah there are plenty of factors, but raw numbers + netcode are two of the biggest ones.

 

[Beckx]

I wish gaming in general wasn't so online-centric that it's the primary reason not to play a game, but that's another discussion.

You and me, we see eye to eye on this.

 

[alstein]

Just because you have bad netcode doesn't mean the game gets played. =P

Anyway, too much AE and UMVC3. More people need to play other fighting games.

AE (the netcode is tolerable, but it's not good enough to be a subsitute for offline) and Marvel are what draw folks to play the other games at tournies.

Noticed very few folks at majors or even monthlies just play the off-brand fighters among the 2D crowd. The 3D crowd is a different beast. VF and Tekken folks tend to play VF or Tekken, though they might play another 2d fighter they really like (GT for example is a pretty good Persona player)

 

[Edgeward]

I'll keep QQing until they bring back Edge Master mode to SC, dammit

 

[onionfrog]

Anyway, too much AE and UMVC3. More people need to play other fighting games.

Yes, let's all play Skullgirls.

Spoiler

But I'm never giving up UMVC3

I'll keep QQing until they bring back Edge Master mode to SC, dammit

Agreed.

 

[El Sloth]

Games with good netcode dont get played

Are you thinking about Arcana when you say this? Because it's silly to imply the reason people the don't play the game is because it has amazing netcode.

I would argue that one of the biggest reasons the Skullgirls community has persisted and did not just wither away slowly after release is in large part thanks to it's good netcode. We've got folks having playable matches with Japanese players. That shit is cray.

 

[racketpunch]

AE (the netcode is tolerable, but it's not good enough to be a subsitute for offline) and Marvel are what draw folks to play the other games at tournies.

I think netcode has little to do with attendance to tournies. You can mimic offline play, online, and people will still show up to play at tournies for the experience, to compete, and the pot.

 

[Grecco]

Just because you have bad netcode doesn't mean the game gets played. =P

Anyway, too much AE and UMVC3. More people need to play other fighting games.

wed play injustice but injustice started at 9

 

[Karsticles]

Just because you have bad netcode doesn't mean the game gets played. =P

Anyway, too much AE and UMVC3. More people need to play other fighting games.

Come play Skullgirls with me, I suck. :-D

 

[chriskun]

once again I am not surprised how far some of these "hardcore" fighting game fans have their head up their asses.

First off having competent online is essential in a games success or popularity. And notice I said competent, not amazing. Sure you might not be able to hit your 1 frame links consistently in SF4 online, but you can do basic combos, FADC into ultra everytime. The netcode is good enough to support the meat and potato mechanics of the game. It's the same thing for marvel, the netcode is not as good as SF4 but you can do basic to mid-high execution combos easily on a 4-5 green bar connection. I think where you notice the lag in marvel is blocking, you cannot block on reaction to some mixups online that you would be able to offline.

Oh and Marvel was a black sheep??? what the fuck are you talking about. Sure there was some people hating on the game when it came out ala Sanford but it was prominently featured in tournaments from the get-go.

 

[nycfurby]

Marvel was most definitely a black sheep when it was introduced into the FGC. At least going back to MSH, anyway.. XD

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I'm not sure about that. People hardly play KoF

This is the only reason I don't play KoF

and the only reason I haven't bought accent core

 

[A Pretty Panda]

once again I am not surprised how far some of these "hardcore" fighting game fans have their head up their asses.

Name names

 

[SolarPowered]

Yes, let's all play Skullgirls.

Spoiler

But I'm never giving up UMVC3

Agreed.

There is no need to give up UMvC3. It's not impossible to play more than one game.

Solar, Q, etc. - what's the best way to approach learning GGXAR?

Don't ask me. I'm just starting to learn the game!

It'd be a lot better if the characters flashed blue during the frc window instead of the input bar so I could more quickly recognize and just see when it is. Looking through the frame data gives you general idea (like Baiken's j.D's frc is from frames 9-11) but it'd be easier if I could just see it instead.

Yeah, it'd be nice if they gave us the option to use a flash. After a few months of practice with the flash on FRCs shouldn't be a problem at all.

SF4 has a good (enough) netcode, yet it's played to hell.
The games you're thinking about have other reasons for not getting played, with more weight to them than just "they have a good netcode". And the ones getting played have other reasons than "bad netcode".

It's not good enough.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

injustice http://www.twitch.tv/pr_balrog

 

[Busaiku]

The latency of Guilty Gear XX Accent Core+ on PSN hasn't been that much of an issue for me.
Yeah, my execution is garbage anyways (the only thing I can consistently FRC is Bridget's f.K), but still, I've been able to play alright sometimes, even against guys like onemic.

Though of course that widely varies among people, I guess.
I remember Marlinpie saying he was able to perform FRCs flawlessly when the game launched, but then others said they had problems.

My main issue is that it's completely featureless and it's really frustrating just sitting around and waiting for a much.
It's like playing Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition online (though even that's better, since you can at least set up lobbies).

 

[vocab]

Some people (on GAF as well) think Marvel's netcode is perfectly fine, though.

Those people are funny.

 

[Karsticles]

The latency of Guilty Gear XX Accent Core+ on PSN hasn't been that much of an issue for me.
Yeah, my execution is garbage anyways, but still, I've been able to play alright sometimes, even against guys like onemic.

Though of course that widely varies among people, I guess.
I remember Marlinpie saying he was able to perform FRCs flawlessly when the game launched, but then others said they had problems.

My main issue is that it's completely featureless and it's really frustrating just sitting around and waiting for a much.
It's like playing Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition online (though even that's better, since you can at least set up lobbies).

People say funny things about netcode on launch sometimes. Marn, Sp00ky, and NerdJosh all said that Vanilla's netcode almost felt like offline play on release.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

The latency of Guilty Gear XX Accent Core+ on PSN hasn't been that much of an issue for me.
Yeah, my execution is garbage anyways, but still, I've been able to play alright sometimes, even against guys like onemic.

Though of course that widely varies among people, I guess.
I remember Marlinpie saying he was able to perform FRCs flawlessly when the game launched, but then others said they had problems.

My main issue is that it's completely featureless and it's really frustrating just sitting around and waiting for a much.
It's like playing Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition online (though even that's better, since you can at least set up lobbies).

edit: apparently I can't read.


But if it's comparable to ssf4 in terms of latency, Maybe i should get GG.

 

[AAK]

No worries. Hope y'all enjoyed it at least. Online or offline, there just needs to be people playing.

It was sublime

I'll definitely post up if we do get another VF5FS lobby going.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Oh and Marvel was a black sheep??? what the fuck are you talking about. Sure there was some people hating on the game when it came out ala Sanford but it was prominently featured in tournaments from the get-go.

As opposed to Injustice? Lets see. It was at Civil War, ECT and UFGT. Basically every tournament aside from NCR since release. And for all the complaints there are about UFGT's timeslot, the only fighters that were on stream 1 on sunday were Injustice, AE and Marvel.

I think that Joker pic is right on the money.

 

[Busaiku]

People say funny things about netcode on launch sometimes. Marn, Sp00ky, and NerdJosh all said that Vanilla's netcode almost felt like offline play on release.

I guess, but again, it's not the biggest problem for me, even now.
It's definitely not as good as BlazBlue Continuum Shift Extend and Persona 4 Arena in most cases, but it's also not to the point that it's unplayable for someone as garbage as myself (while I find that stuff like Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 and The King of Fighters XIII were).

edit: apparently I can't read.


But if it's comparable to ssf4 in terms of latency, Maybe i should get GG.

I think it varies among who you ask.
I find it ok, but as you can see, others definitely have an issue with it.
However, the lack of features makes it really unappealing for me to take it online, given that it's definitely the weakest of Arc System Works' games (in terms of latency).

 

[onionfrog]

There is no need to give up UMvC3. It's not impossible to play more than one game.
.

I don't know why I said that.
I don't think I could quit UMVC3 if I wanted to, too much of the game is burned into my mind.
Hundreds of hours of entertainment for only $40. Nothing can beat the $ per hour value of fighting games.

 

[LordJim]

As opposed to Injustice? Lets see. It was at Civil War, ECT and UFGT. Basically every tournament aside from NCR since release. And for all the complaints there are about UFGT's timeslot, the only fighters that were on stream 1 on sunday were Injustice, AE and Marvel.

I think that Joker pic is right on the money.

Not mentioning getting in at EVO at the latest date ever.
Like, what more support could one want tourney wise?

 

[Stabby McSter]

I think my favorite thing about UMvC3 is tri-dash characters. It's just so... fun.

Also, I finally bought Injustice yesterday so I'll probably start getting into that again.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't know why I said that.
I don't think I could quit UMVC3 if I wanted to, too much of the game is burned into my mind.
Hundreds of hours of entertainment for only $40. Nothing can beat the $ per hour value of fighting games.

Monster Hunter comes pretty close!

I think my favorite thing about UMvC3 is tri-dash characters. It's just so... fun.

Also, I finally bought Injustice yesterday so I'll probably start getting into that again.

Footsies are so boring. I want my tridashes!

I hope Skullgirls gets a tridasher.

 

[Busaiku]

Fire Emblem Awakening consumed my life for months.
And there's still a lot to do, but I'm forcing myself to play other games.

 

[Fersis]

Rumor time:

Jon Chinnery
‏@Chindogg21
Rumor has it that Triforce pissed away $10k that was supposed to go to the VxG Elite players. Now they can't go to EVO w/o outside assists.