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Fighting Games Weekly | Sept 22-28 | 2 Fast 2 Fuerte: Tokido Drift

V

vulva

Member
Kumubou said:
I'm legitimately sad that I'm sending back my copy of AH3:LM that I just got from Amazon. I want to support the game, but fucking up the online play like that is absolutely unacceptable and it needs to be made clear. Owning the JP version already doesn't help. That's why it's so obnoxious -- they're splitting the player base for Reasons. The game's community being as small as it is doesn't help, either.
Click to expand...

Those "reasons" could include major glitches that come with the existing code that are too deep in to repair. Netcode isn't exactly something easy, especially when developing for a console with limitations. From what I've read, it doesn't sound like they're nefariously trying to prevent people from playing each other. I'm not saying this is something they're justified in doing. In fact this is something they should have had the foresight for, however they didn't. I can't stand seeing a complex problem being overly simplified like this.

Support what you do or don't but don't act like netcode is something as simple as flicking a switch
 
K

Kumubou

Member
Retro_ said:
Wait. It's not just version incompatibility?
Click to expand...
Nope.
@aksysgames @ twitter.com/aksysgames/status/514819476269715456 said:
Greeting, all! Sorry about the silence, but we were looking into the #AH3LM net play thing, and we have news.
Click to expand...
@aksysgames @ twitter.com/aksysgames/status/514819534234992640 said:
Unfortunately, we were told that there are no plans at this time to implement cross-region netplay. #sadheart
Click to expand...
 
K

Kumubou

Member
vulva said:
Those "reasons" could include major glitches that come with the existing code that are too deep in to repair. Netcode isn't exactly something easy, especially when developing for a console with limitations. From what I've read, it doesn't sound like they're nefariously trying to prevent people from playing each other. I'm not saying this is something they're justified in doing. In fact this is something they should have had the foresight for, however they didn't. I can't stand seeing a complex problem being overly simplified like this.

Support what you do or don't but don't act like netcode is something as simple as flicking a switch
Click to expand...
I don't think there's anything nefarious going on... but it doesn't matter if it happened because of malice of because of incompetence, it shouldn't be tolerated. I'll be honest: I know that getting games (especially fighting games) to work over the Internet is very difficult, but when it's something that every other game in the genre has done (outside of major version differences in regions like with TvC and the new JoJo's game), I'm not buying any technical issues. Especially when the game effectively runs on the same networking libraries as a number of other games, including it's immediate predecessor -- and none of them have had this issue in the past.

Someone probably just made a dumb mistake. If I had to take a wild guess, the US release probably got registered as a completely separate release and Sony's not willing to change that and merge them, because it would probably break a bunch of stuff on PSN. Reminds me of the whole rigamarole Lab Zero had to go through with Skullgirls Encore on the PS3.

Dahbomb said:
You should feel bad about pre-ordering games in the first place.
Click to expand...
I can see that... but why would anyone expect the games to not work together when every other identical release in the genre across regions on the platform does? Life's full of surprises, I guess.
 
V

vulva

Member
Kumubou said:
I don't think there's anything nefarious going on... but it doesn't matter if it happened because of malice of because of incompetence, it shouldn't be tolerated. I'll be honest: I know that getting games (especially fighting games) to work over the Internet is very difficult, but when it's something that every other game in the genre has done (outside of major version differences in regions like with TvC and the new JoJo's game), I'm not buying any technical issues. Especially when the game effectively runs on the same networking libraries as a number of other games, including it's immediate predecessor -- and none of them have had this issue in the past.

Someone probably just made a dumb mistake. If I had to take a wild guess, the US release probably got registered as a completely separate release and Sony's not willing to change that and merge them, because it would probably break a bunch of stuff on PSN. Reminds me of the whole rigamarole Lab Zero had to go through with Skullgirls Encore on the PS3.
Click to expand...
Sometimes something as small as region classification can ultimately lead to connection issues in netcoding. You'd be amazed at the kind of conflicts that can arise in netcode development. I remember once dealing with a case where if player A was hosting and player B disconnected and then player B hosted and player A joined then disconnected it would result in player A being entirely unable to find any online matches as a result until they restarted their game.

I understand the frustration of lack of cross region playing for sure, I'm just saying I'm not crazy about seeing it simplified to being something as small as "reasons".
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I can see that... but why would anyone expect the games to not work together when every other identical release in the genre across regions on the platform does? Life's full of surprises, I guess.
Click to expand...
Because every game is different, every version is different. About a million things can go wrong with a game at release date.

Unless there is a substantial reward for pre-ordering or there is going to be an extreme shortage of product... I see no reason for pre-ordering a game. It just feeds into the whole problems with the industry as a whole. Just wait for impressions of the FINAL RETAIL PRODUCT then order the game.
 
K

Kumubou

Member
vulva said:
Sometimes something as small as region classification can ultimately lead to connection issues in netcoding. You'd be amazed at the kind of conflicts that can arise in netcode development. I remember once dealing with a case where if player A was hosting and player B disconnected and then player B hosted and player A joined then disconnected it would result in player A being entirely unable to find any online matches as a result until they restarted their game.

I understand the frustration of lack of cross region playing for sure, I'm just saying I'm not crazy about seeing it simplified to being something as small as "reasons".
Click to expand...
I'm aware of how even the smallest differences can cause issues with online play... but frankly, that's the sort of issue they need to address before release. It's a non-trivial issue, but it's one every one of their peers (including their past releases) hasn't had an issue with, so I think it's a fair expectation. I didn't intent to trivialize the problem by saying it was for Reasons (although it is rather glib). It's more the fact that they probably will never publicly talk about why it happened, to protect their partners (and I can't really blame them).

Dahbomb said:
Because every game is different, every version is different. About a million things can go wrong with a game at release date.

Unless there is a substantial reward for pre-ordering or there is going to be an extreme shortage of product... I see no reason for pre-ordering a game. It just feeds into the whole problems with the industry as a whole. Just wait for impressions of the FINAL RETAIL PRODUCT then order the game.
Click to expand...
I'll be honest: I only pre-order niche releases like this because there's a pretty good chance that you won't get a second opportunity to buy the game at retail, due to limited print runs. It's less of an issue now than it was in the past due to digital releases, but I loathe paying full price for a release that I have no control over (I've spent more than $15 on a digital game exactly once, and that was for VF5:FS because it's Virtua Fighter).

Besides, I figured this was about as stone-cold of a lock as anything to be without issues. I knew what I was getting... right? :|
 
V

vulva

Member
Kumubou said:
I'm aware of how even the smallest differences can cause issues with online play... but frankly, that's the sort of issue they need to address before release. It's a non-trivial issue, but it's one every one of their peers (including their past releases) hasn't had an issue with, so I think it's a fair expectation. I didn't intent to trivialize the problem by saying it was for Reasons (although it is rather glib). It's more the fact that they probably will never publicly talk about why it happened, to protect their partners (and I can't really blame them).
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity lets say they announced the game would be delayed by another 2 months or so to resolve and implement this feature. The publisher who's paying the devs is unhappy that this adds up more costs to pay the devs to complete this feature which ends up resulting in the game being 5 more bucks per version to justify the lost funds in the addition of this feature. Would you be buying the game on its new release or would you be outraged about a delay/price increase?

Not saying this exact scenario would happen, just curious what you would make of it it did happen.

If it makes a difference, lets pretend the publisher was open about everything I just said to explain the delay/price increase.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I should've pre-ordered DMC3SE because Capcom apparently didn't expect there to be demand for what is essentially a Greatest Hits update. Went to my local store on day 1, they sold out. Kept checking all local stores.

Drove 2 hours to the nearest location that had one. I barely made it in and got the last copy. A single manly tear was shed that day.
 
M

Mr. X

Member
Should've used ggpo.

Make more noise, they don't see $$$ earned in fixing it but shit like this and the +R update make me weary about buying future product.
 
K

Kumubou

Member
vulva said:
Out of curiosity lets say they announced the game would be delayed by another 2 months or so to resolve and implement this feature. The publisher who's paying the devs is unhappy that this adds up more costs to pay the devs to complete this feature which ends up resulting in the game being 5 more bucks per version to justify the lost funds in the addition of this feature. Would you be buying the game on its new release or would you be outraged about a delay/price increase?

Not saying this exact scenario would happen, just curious what you would make of it it did happen.

If it makes a difference, lets pretend the publisher was open about everything I just said to explain the delay/price increase.
Click to expand...
I suspect that there would be some teeth gnashing and rending of garments on my part about the delay (ok that's being overdramatic, but it is the Internet) but at the end of the day it wouldn't be a problem -- it's more important to get the release right.

Honestly, the publisher being open about it does make a difference. Delaying a game to fix networking issues when the original release worked would come across as odd. However, if they were upfront about why (maybe it has to do with bugs from importing the English text breaking parts of the engine, there was a regression issue, someone brought Heart on as an intern developer for a day, etc.), it would make everyone involved look worse but it would also show that the publisher and developer are willing to own the issue and address it. On that note, I should give Aksys some credit for being upfront about it, where they could have given a mealy-mouth response to get people to think a fix was coming (when it wasn't), or not have said anything.

Mr. X said:
Should've used ggpo.

Make more noise, they don't see $$$ earned in fixing it but shit like this and the +R update make me weary about buying future product.
Click to expand...
ArcSys' refusal to update GGAC+ to +R, and the odd schedule that it happened on was just weird.

The issue with using GGPO with an existing codebase is that they can be heavy refactoring involved to get the engine compliant with GGPO's requirements. That and on the PS3 and 360, they may not have the CPU or RAM to spare. I remember asking FilthieRich and Harada about that at Evo 2011, and they admit that Namco looked at using GGPO for their projects but it was impractical to implement into current engines due to it's requirements and RAM issues. They did develop some games that use it (like a couple of the DBZ games) and they claimed to have learned lessons from experimenting with it, which to their credit looks to actually be true given how TTT2 and Gundam EXVSFB are online.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Yoshinori Ono ‏@Yoshi_OnoChin 1m

I'd like to make announce to new something in next year EVO... hahaha, I hope it. ;P
Click to expand...

Well, don't expect any announcements at Capcom Cup then. :)

Would be sick if they were able to hold the actual announcement till EVO, but wouldn't be surprised if something like E3 ends up taking it due to the press presence.
 
K

kirblar

Member
lol, I just saw the Tokido/Pepeday match from the 5v5.

EX Leg Throw into U2 as soon as you hit the ground is one hell of a wakeup shenanigan.
 
R

Rhapsody

Banned
Kumubou said:
I'm legitimately sad that I'm sending back my copy of AH3:LM that I just got from Amazon. I want to support the game, but fucking up the online play like that is absolutely unacceptable and it needs to be made clear. Owning the JP version already doesn't help. That's why it's so obnoxious -- they're splitting the player base for Reasons. The game's community being as small as it is doesn't help, either.


Sounds like Razer's sticks are built about as well as their mice. That's good to know (so I don't buy one).


Good luck, it sounds like you'll need it. D:
Click to expand...

Looks like LM won't be the AH game I'll be jumping in on.
 
Z

Zissou

Member
Kikirin said:
I'm not a good or knowledgeable player by any means, so the following should be taken with a grain of salt. Additionally, the following comments are based on my time with the first P4U rather than this recent one.

Overall, I feel like it's a combination of both. That isn't to say that the style is totally bad, but they are more a supplement for racking up damage and harassing the opponent rather than something you want to bank everything on, if that makes sense. With damage and pressure being at the levels they're at, a bad move/read could lead to almost Marvel levels of blowup once the opponent gets in. That's probably what makes the series great for some players, but that level of volatility is a huge turnoff for me.

As far as system mechanics go, there is a universal evade that is now projectile-invul from Frame 1 in this latest version. There's also a no-blocking window during jump startup and the first few airborne frames (8 frames total), making upback a riskier defensive option. It also lacks a general increased pushback option that other ASW games tend to have (e.g. barrier / faultless defense). Guard cancel attacks, while functional, don't seem to be very fast and don't seem to have much untech time to let you run away. They did add guard cancel evades in this latest game, though I don't know how effective it is (or not).

As for (P4U1) character-specific stuff, the traditional zoners (Naoto, Liz, Yukiko) tend to have relatively low health and are generally in a lot of trouble once they're caught blocking. They have relatively poor DPs, and their close-/mid-range buttons tend to be on the slower side. The ones with a dedicated projectile button (Yukiko, and now Yukari) lose air unblockable / head invulnerable properties on their 2B attacks as a tradeoff. A number of the other characters also have some degree of anti-zoning tools, metered and otherwise, to approach / punish careless zoning.

That said, they do have their own strong / ridiculous stuff (unblockable setups, combos into instant kill, etc.), but that stuff generally isn't strongly tied to their lame / keepaway play. And depending on distance and the tool connected, rewards for lame play can vary from piddling to a decent combo.

Hopefully there aren't too many inaccuracies in there, and some of those things might be weaknesses of zoners in general rather than of ones in P4U specifically. It'd be better if a more well-versed player could contribute a more-informed view.
Click to expand...

AnneIFrank said:
I missed this. It basically comes down to you don't the damage/momentum you need to keep up from zoning, and therre are actually few traditional zoners in the game anyways lol. Yukari probably has the best zoning, but she's actually A+ tier more due to her lockdown than anything. Naoto has screen pollution but doesn't function as a traditional zoner, and Liz isn't a zoner, she's just weird.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the lengthy responses! It's a little disheartening to know your generally preferred playstyle isn't very viable in a given game. I've had multiple people tell me to try Yukari, but I'm scared of dat execution, especially since I'm brand new to the game. I wonder how hard she actually is...

Smooth Operator said:
Ogawa tier-list on GGXrd :

S: Millia, Zato, Faust, Ramlethal
A: I-No, Sol=Ky, Chipp=Venom
B: Everyone else

Ogawa is struggling lately but he still thinks that Zato is the second best character in the game, interesting.


For comparaison :
Click to expand...

Cool the game is still evolving- I was worried it would be figured out super quickly due it not deviating much from the traditional GG formula. Apparently all the characters I play/want to play are ridiculous tier (Faust, Ramlethal, Zato) for the first time in my life, yay :)
 
A

Anne

Member
Zissou said:
Thanks for the lengthy responses! It's a little disheartening to know your generally preferred playstyle isn't very viable in a given game. I've had multiple people tell me to try Yukari, but I'm scared of dat execution, especially since I'm brand new to the game. I wonder how hard she actually is...



Cool the game is still evolving- I was worried it would be figured out super quickly due it not deviating much from the traditional GG formula. Apparently all the characters I play/want to play are ridiculous tier (Faust, Ramlethal, Zato) for the first time in my life, yay :)
Click to expand...

Confirming is hard but she's not that bad. You can play lame in the game with a number of characters, it's just you don't see traditional zoning. You'll run away and lame/patient play, just once a hit happens it's go time.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Not even Combofiend can escape the "Is it a Major" vortex

major.png
 
D

Dlent

Member
Zissou said:
Cool the game is still evolving- I was worried it would be figured out super quickly due it not deviating much from the traditional GG formula. Apparently all the characters I play/want to play are ridiculous tier (Faust, Ramlethal, Zato) for the first time in my life, yay :)
Click to expand...

I don't think Faust and Zato have ever been worse than great.
 
Shouta

Shouta

Member
Oh, missed this yesterday.

jbug617 said:
Spooky did a video on Maid Cafes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffEBDO9oVU&feature=youtu.be

He said it's pretty shady and can get scary if you are not aware of what is happening to you (locked elevators , over charges on your CC etc).

Shouta can you clarify this?
Click to expand...

Yeah, some of the shadier establishments can do that to you. They want to bilk money from folks of course. I don't know if it's common with the cafes focused on otaku but it can happen to hostess/host bars so I expect it occurs with bad maid cafes. I don't go to any of these establishments but I probably wouldn't be scared to.

AAK said:
Does Ryan Hart count? (assuming he's going)
Click to expand...

If he's going, that helps. =o
 
Riposte

Riposte

Member
How big do you think the playerbase for AH is? I got the feeling the Japanese were necessary to get consistent matches.
 
Z

Zissou

Member
AnneIFrank said:
Confirming is hard but she's not that bad. You can play lame in the game with a number of characters, it's just you don't see traditional zoning. You'll run away and lame/patient play, just once a hit happens it's go time.
Click to expand...

So it's the kind of lame where when the moment is right, you go in? I guess I'm cool with that.

Dlent said:
I don't think Faust and Zato have ever been worse than great.
Click to expand...

I knew I'd be tier-whoring if I went with either of them, haha. Faust is my main dude for the moment, especially because he's easy to use and I'm completely new to GG.

It's not my fault they have cool designs! I wanted to mess around with Ramlethal ever since I saw she had a Clu from Tron Legacy neon orange/black/dark gray color sheme (that movie is kinda meh, but the visual style is really cool!). Elphelt could be cool too- shades of Cable in her.
 
R

RockTurtle

Member
what spurred this whole 'is it a major" thing?

it just came out of fucking nowhere. like a rollback question from 2009.

also, major shit is going down in berserk manga. MAJOR shit.
 
P

petghost

Banned
yeah faust gonna be even more of a bitch to deal with.

i predict multiple fausts in all top 8's in america for a while.


fuck faust.
 
Z

Zissou

Member
But... Faust is dabess T_T

Easiest character to get wins with is probably Sol though- Japanese arcades are like 50% that motherfucker.
 
P

petghost

Banned
Zissou said:
But... Faust is dabess T_T

Easiest character to get wins with is probably Sol though- Japanese arcades are like 50% that motherfucker.
Click to expand...

what makes him fucked is that he is basically never not playing his game... you gotta play his. like sol i can at least play neutral against. if he gets meteors out i gotta sit around and not press buttons for like 5 seconds where he can do whatever the fuck he wants. he can keep all movement in check with his new ridiculously good new f.s, putting you in blockstun while he throws out items. his mixup is good too.

sol isnt on his level imo...the new fafnir is pretty cray tho, its like a counterhit machine.
 
S

Sayad

Member
kirblar said:
Well, don't expect any announcements at Capcom Cup then. :)

Would be sick if they were able to hold the actual announcement till EVO, but wouldn't be surprised if something like E3 ends up taking it due to the press presence.
Click to expand...
EVO announcement doesn't have to be the game's reveal, could be first gameplay, new characters, release date or even just a trailer pandering to the EVO crowd(about the game's mechanics or competitive play).
 
Z

Zissou

Member
petghost said:
what makes him fucked is that he is basically never not playing his game... you gotta play his. like sol i can at least play neutral against. if he gets meteors out i gotta sit around and not press buttons for like 5 seconds where he can do whatever the fuck he wants.
Click to expand...

Meteors aren't too common though. Half the time you're getting donuts/chocolate :(

Faust has booty defense, no? No invincibility aside from his super (which is risky and not even guaranteed due to the cup game) or YOLO dust which gets blown up as often as it works for getting through an attack you see coming. He feels like he has hard match-ups against characters like Millia. Who do you play?
 
P

petghost

Banned
Zissou said:
Meteors aren't too common though. Half the time you're getting donuts/chocolate :(

Faust has booty defense, no? No invincibility aside from his super (which is risky and not even guaranteed due to the cup game) or YOLO dust which gets blown up as often as it works for getting through an attack you see coming. He feels like he has hard match-ups against characters like Millia. Who do you play?
Click to expand...

you are right he doesnt have a traditional DP style get off me move but he still has 5d which has a good amount of invul but it becomes quite useful with yrc as he can use its invul period on wakeup without commiting or really taking a risk...just 25% meter. meter comes super quick in xrd so its not much of a cost for something so nice. i play venom who historically has done alright against him. just venting.
 
H

Hag

Member
Wow they really fucked up the cross region online on love max huh all my friends who plays this already has the jp version... rip me

whens xrd kappa
 
A

Astarte

Member
RockTurtle said:
what spurred this whole 'is it a major" thing?

it just came out of fucking nowhere. like a rollback question from 2009.

also, major shit is going down in berserk manga. MAJOR shit.
Click to expand...

God DAMN Rickert's going in
Meanwhile the wait for Jojolion EXTREMEBEETLEFIGHTS still rages on
 
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