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[Fimbulvetr]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is NO WAY you can put FF13 on the same level as SO4. I'm flabbergasted that you would even consider this. I try to be as polite as I can in the debates here but you are flat out wrong in this instance.

Yeah, that is a pretty mean thing to say.

 

[Crash Station]

Yeah, that is a pretty mean thing to say.

I can't help it. When someone like me says out loud "this shit is way too animu" while playing a game, we have a problem. Call me a weaboo or otaku or whatever you want for enjoying the story in most JRPGs but SO4 is a train wreck that is even nauseating for the target demographic.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I can't help it. When someone like me says out loud "this shit is way too animu" while playing a game, we have a problem. Call me a weaboo or otaku or whatever you want for enjoying the story in most JRPGs but SO4 is a train wreck that is even nauseating for the target demographic.

No, i meant it's mean to say another JRPG has writing as bad as SO4.

 

[Fun Factor]

P3 and P4 are the only SMT games at all with random dungeons. Even then their level design is better than XIII's.

Yeah I wish FFXIII got the same dungeon designs as Strange Journey:

Instead we got this crap designs:

Why couldn't Square just caved in & made an endless amount of cut & paste hallways skewed in a random pattern throughout the game.


edit:

What are you talking about? How is it archaic? Please explain? Were their not enough datalogs explaining things that should have been said in cutscenes?

Well everyone can view the quicklook of the game on Giantbomb, I believe it's the first 40 minutes of the game. pretty self explanatory.

 

[ULTROS!]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is NO WAY you can put FF13 on the same level as SO4. I'm flabbergasted that you would even consider this. I try to be as polite as I can in the debates here but you are flat out wrong in this instance.

Frankly, I had more fun with SO4 and enjoyed the post-game content more than FFXIII's (if there was any). Gameplay wise, content wise, and "mapping" wise, I preferred SO4. Graphically, story-wise, character-wise, and soundtrack-wise, of course FFXIII.

Still I had fun with FFXIII but I enjoyed SO4 more.

 

[Cep]

No, i meant it's mean to say another JRPG has writing as bad as SO4.

I am sure we can dig something up, but yeah it is pretty bad.

And there are games that are certainly more 'animu,' many of which I have enjoyed much more in the first hour than the 15 hours I played SO4

 

[Green Mamba]

Yeah I wish FFXIII got the same dungeon designs as Strange Journey:

Instead we got this crap designs:

Why couldn't Square just caved in & made an endless amount of cut & paste hallways skewed in a random pattern throughout the game.

Yeah, just look at all of the alternate pathways and places to explore in the bottom ones!

Oh wait, I get it. It's because it has curves and shit.

 

[7Th]

I love Japanese cartoons and FFXIII wasn't Japanese cartoon-like enough for me. If FFXIII had been more unashamedly cartoony it would have been a much better game.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Yeah I wish FFXIII got the same dungeon designs as Strange Journey:

Instead we got this crap designs:

Why couldn't Square just caved in & made an endless amount of cut & paste hallways skewed in a random pattern throughout the game.

1) Strange Journey doesn't have random dungeons.

2) Don't compare two floors of a dungeon to an entire one. Why not show the whole thing? The secret entrances to parts of floors you wouldn't run into normally otherwise? Secret doors? Trap floors? You know, actual competent dungeon design?

3) How bout you explain "archaic" instead of stumbling around an actual answer?

 

[Zoe]

Ugh, the sound is kind of annoying in mission 64. The camera is swinging around too fast, and the sound effects follow suit :\

 

[Crash Station]

No, i meant it's mean to say another JRPG has writing as bad as SO4.

Oh, okay.

He's got a point.

Major FF13 spoiler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L2KK_xk0pc

How about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gaMKbv-xHU

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBRm_jegPik

What does TOTA have to do with this? I'm talking about SO4.

 

[dramatis]

I take it back, the Shin Megami Tensei story aren't animu. Just the way the story is told is so archaic in that game. It was just laughable from that quick look.

You consider 13's story and characters to be good. That by itself means your definition of "archaic" is already out of whack.

Rather than accusing others of being subjective (an argument too easily pointed in the opposite direction), you should step back and evaluate carefully the faulty narrative structure, plot progression, and character backstories and development. The irrelevance of the first half to the second half is not subjective. The not-quite-able-to-escape-stereotype characters develop in ways that do not relate to the plot; that is not subjective. The weakness of the plot, which is heavily reliant on a dismal character's decisions and the activeness of everyone EXCEPT the protagonists, is also not subjective.

FF13 is more animu than many games this generation that are scorned for either the generic main protagonist or because it comes from tri-Ace. When in reality 13 just hides its tropes behind the mantle of, "Oh really strong female protagonist!!!!!111!!!"

 

[Crash Station]

Frankly, I had more fun with SO4 and enjoyed the post-game content more than FFXIII's (if there was any). Gameplay wise, content wise, and "mapping" wise, I preferred SO4. Graphically, story-wise, character-wise, and soundtrack-wise, of course FFXIII.

Still I had fun with FFXIII but I enjoyed SO4 more.

And there's nothing wrong with that. I had fun with the battle system too. I'm talking strictly from a writing perspective.

 

[dramatis]

I love Japanese cartoons and FFXIII wasn't Japanese cartoon-like enough for me. If FFXIII had been more unashamedly cartoony it would have been a much better game.

You keep saying that, but it's really not true. Because overall the game took itself very seriously, because l'Cie and fal'Cie were serious business, and what little humor there was was quite pathetic. At best, Toriyama could probably pull off campy, in which case it's probably better if he and Watanabe never ever write at all.

 

[ULTROS!]

And there's nothing wrong with that. I had fun with the battle system too. I'm talking strictly from a writing perspective.

Writing? I found them to be equivalent, although a bit higher in XIII's side. :lol

 

[Cep]

I love Japanese cartoons and FFXIII wasn't Japanese cartoon-like enough for me. If FFXIII had been more unashamedly cartoony it would have been a much better game.

Ugh, I hate the refuge in camp argument.

FF13 was trying to build a decently serious narrative, so instead of making it camp so that writing flaws are less apparent, how about hiring a competent writer.

Though I do agree that the experience would have been a lot better had that been the direction they took (I do not call it refuge in camp for no reason).

 

[7Th]

You consider 13's story and characters to be good. That by itself means your definition of "archaic" is already out of whack.

Rather than accusing others of being subjective (an argument too easily pointed in the opposite direction), you should step back and evaluate carefully the faulty narrative structure, plot progression, and character backstories and development. The irrelevance of the first half to the second half is not subjective. The not-quite-able-to-escape-stereotype characters develop in ways that do not relate to the plot; that is not subjective. The weakness of the plot, which is heavily reliant on a dismal character's decisions and the activeness of everyone EXCEPT the protagonists, is also not subjective.

FF13 is more animu than many games this generation that are scorned for either the generic main protagonist or because it comes from tri-Ace. When in reality 13 just hides its tropes behind the mantle of, "Oh really strong female protagonist!!!!!111!!!"

FFXIII hides its tropes behind BIG BAD REALISTICALLY-STYLED graphics; I don't think Lightning has anything to do with anyone's perception of FFXIII.

You keep saying that, but it's really not true. Because overall the game took itself very seriously, because l'Cie and fal'Cie were serious business, and what little humor there was was quite pathetic. At best, Toriyama could probably pull off campy, in which case it's probably better if he and Watanabe never ever write at all.

What's bad with camp? The Mario & Luigi games are praised for featuring great writing, mostly thanks to the amazing localization, and enjoyable storytelling and they're all about the camp and stuff. You need to take vidya less seriously, drama.

 

[Papercuts]

Wtf? I didn't think the game could get worse than Doom, then I got hit by Bay. :lol

Two of the most blatant displays of artificial difficulty I've ever seen.

 

[Alex]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is NO WAY you can put FF13 on the same level as SO4. I'm flabbergasted that you would even consider this. I try to be as polite as I can in the debates here but you are flat out wrong in this instance.

I somewhat feel bad now, that's a hell of a response.

Well, the presentation is a lot better, designs, voice work, cinematography. But the actual plot points and character struggles are all just about as bad. But again, I will agree that the presentation of them and the voice work and everything else is far worse, magnifying the effect.

I'm a little more partial to forgive SO4 because it was at least decent from a game design standpoint. Just decent though, their dungeons really fucking sucked compared to SO3, which had it's own endless list of flaws.

I only trust the Silmera team, far as Tri-Ace goes.

Yeah I wish FFXIII got the same dungeon designs as Strange Journey:

The SMT map shows things to explore some general maze like design. I haven't played the game though.

FFXIII, though, you pick out some of the fancier looking areas in the game and they're still basically just point A to B hallways with no deviation.

Still though, I'd not bitch too much about that if the game at least had the courtesy to at least have a better combat system that couldnt be completely wrecked by pushing X over and over outside of the last 25 or so hunts.

Or sub bits that didn't involve just linearly dumping in CP and mats to fill bars.

Or fuck, at least let me pick my characters or classes I might want for them or DO ANYTHING the first 25 hours.

I'll never understand the need for so many downgrades from things that worked so well in X-2, X-2 may have been goofy as hell but it had some of the better gameplay in the series.

 

[jiggle]

Ugh, the sound is kind of annoying in mission 64. The camera is swinging around too fast, and the sound effects follow suit :\

do u know what triggers that c'ieth stone?
i was midway through titan trial and finished 63, and went to check on that but it wasn't up yet
such a PitA to run through that place to see the stone on the map XD

 

[Crash Station]

I somewhat feel bad now, that's a hell of a response.

Well, the presentation is a lot better, designs, voice work, cinematography. But the actual plot points and character struggles are all just about as bad. But again, I will agree that the presentation of them and the voice work and everything else is far worse, magnifying the effect.

I'm a little more partial to forgive SO4 because it was at least decent from a game design standpoint. Just decent though, their dungeons really fucking sucked compared to SO3, which had it's own endless list of flaws.

I only trust the Silmera team, far as Tri-Ace goes.

Well all right then, that makes more sense. Sorry about going crazy there. I still disagree but I can see where you're coming from now.

 

[7Th]

Ugh, I hate the refuge in camp argument.

FF13 was trying to build a decently serious narrative, so instead of making it camp so that writing flaws are less apparent, how about hiring a competent writer.

I do agree that the experience would have been a lot better had that been the direction they took.

Competently-written Japanese games that take themselves too seriously are scarce.

Spoiler

And in my opinion, inexistent.

Camp is great, when the game acknowledges it's camp (see FF5 or FF10-2 for reference). When the game takes itself seriously, on the other hand...

Like I said, I think FFXIII shouldn't have tried to take itself too seriously in the first place.

 

[ULTROS!]

What about dinner dance versus FF13's scene where they show Vanille's mark on her hip?

For reference, here's dinner dance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlHZrBUimuY

You could compare dinner dance with about any scene with the baby chocobo in it.

IU's cutscene (especially that) is a completely different story.

Well at least the cutscenes of FFXIII were so much better (graphically and delivery).

But here's a question for you: Dinner Dance or "HEROES NEVER LOSE"?

 

[Cep]

Competently-written Japanese games that take themselves too seriously are scarce.

Spoiler

And in my opinion, inexistent.

Like I said, I think FFXIII shouldn't have tried to take itself too seriously in the first place.

Competently written games are scarce period.

Still does not change the fact that aiming for mediocrity will never get them to the point where more of them are better written.

 

[dramatis]

FFXIII hides its tropes behind BIG BAD REALISTICALLY-STYLED graphics; I don't think Lightning has anything to do with anyone's perception of FFXIII.

What's bad with camp? The Mario & Luigi games are praised for featuring great writing, mostly thanks to the amazing localization, and enjoyable storytelling and they're all about the camp and stuff. You need to take vidya less seriously, drama.

FF13 does not hide its tropes behind "realistically styled graphics"; graphics have nothing to do with the quality of a story. You wield "cartoon graphics" as if it would solve the mistakes of FF13. It doesn't.

There's good and bad with every kind of writing, and camp has these categories as well. Looking at Toriyama, he's not even very good at writing camp (see: FFX-2). Comedy can be good—if you know how to write it (see: Phoenix Wright).

Don't put a halo above your head and tell me to "take vidya less seriously". You have the tendency to pretend you're above the fray, but you get quite serious in discussion too.

 

[7Th]

Competently written games are scarce period.

Still does not change the fact that aiming for mediocrity will never get them to the point where more of them are better written.

I never said they should aim for mediocrity, I said they should aim to create something fun and stylish.

 

[Cep]

FF13 does not hide its tropes behind "realistically styled graphics"; graphics have nothing to do with the quality of a story. You wield "cartoon graphics" as if it would solve the mistakes of FF13. It doesn't.

There's good and bad with every kind of writing, and camp has these categories as well. Looking at Toriyama, he's not even very good at writing camp (see: FFX-2). Comedy can be good—if you know how to write it (see: Phoenix Wright).

Don't put a halo above your head and tell me to "take vidya less seriously". You have the tendency to pretend you're above the fray, but you get quite serious in discussion too.

Both very true.

Also, get that post count up, you junior status is unsightly.

 

[Crash Station]

I never said they should aim for mediocrity, I said they should aim to create something fun and stylish.

That's probably not gonna fly with the current fanbase. As much as I would love an FF with a Bayonetta/Devil May Cry-like story, it's not gonna happen in a mainline game for a while if ever.

 

[firehawk12]

do u know what triggers that c'ieth stone?
i was midway through titan trial and finished 63, and went to check on that but it wasn't up yet
such a PitA to run through that place to see the stone on the map XD

You need to finish 51 before 64 activates.

 

[Firestorm]

He's right though. FFXIII is the least animu JRPG we've gotten this gen. It's all been Tri-Ace stuff and Tales. After playing those, you don't even notice it.

Where did you get the version of the game without Vanille and Snow?

 

[jiggle]

You need to finish 51 before 64 activates.

great, just got done with that, guess i'll trudge through that place again XD

 

[firehawk12]

How is it tamer?

"That's what HEROES do."

"I'm the HERO."

"Aren't you supposed to save her, HERO?"

*punches fist*

*punches fist*

hero hero hero

"Mom's are tough!"

http://www.danpink.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/naruto.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

Well, I feel like Sahz and Lightning are less annoying versions of their archetypes. For me, they made the game more tolerable than it otherwise would have been.


[QUOTE=jiggle]great, just got done with that, guess i'll trudge through that place again XD[/QUOTE]

Yeah. I hate how activating 55 and 64 requires extra travel time. What a pain. :lol

 

[Cep]

I never said they should aim for mediocrity, I said they should aim to create something fun and stylish.

But that is exactly what you imply when you demand for more camp and style.

You seem to think they are substitutes for good writing, they are not.

Camp can be both well AND poorly written.

The reason why some (and not just you, I have had this argument before) like it is because when someone points ans says: 'This is shitty,' people like you can answer: 'Yeah, but it is supposed to be. It is not taking itself seriously'

Have you any idea how often this argument is brought up to squelch hate on X-2's story? Even by yours truly.

Fact is, it is a very poor argument.

 

[Crash Station]

But then the FF "fans" would call it animu, when it already is. Look at FF10-2 reception:

"FF10-2's story sucks!"

*plays FF13*

"WOW SQUARE ENIX AM GODS."

Why is that?

And this is coming from the same fanbase who trashes Dragon Quest games. :lol

"Dragon Quest games require too much grinding."

*grinds for hours for traps*

"Dragon Quest games have really bad and thin stories."

*thinks FF13 has a good story and good characters*

"Haha, Blue Dragon sucks. It's for kiddies."

"I LOVE Final Fantasy 13!"

Final Fantasy "fanbase" is full of hypocrites.

I'm a DQ fan but you gotta admit the stories are generic as hell. You don't have to like FF stories but they're usually more interesting than what is essentially a bare bones fantasy.

 

[ULTROS!]

Just to throw it off, what about Valkyria Chronicles? Is it less animu than FFXIII?

Spoiler

Valkyria Chronicles seems to have way more soul

 

[careful]

Do the Crystarium levels max out at 5? If they don't then how can I expand it beyond 5? I just want to know when it's safe to dump points into the other class skills.

 

[vazel]

I rather enjoyed the stories of the towns you traveled to in DQVII. It's the only DQ I've played and never finished it due to how long it is.

Just to throw it off, what about Valkyria Chronicles? Is it less animu than FFXIII?

Spoiler

Valkyria Chronicles seems to have way more soul

A lot of the cutscenes were drawn out and took itself too seriously. Plus it has that glowing blue chick.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Do the Crystarium levels max out at 5? If they don't then how can I expand it beyond 5? I just want to know when it's safe to dump points into the other class skills.

When you beat the game the Final Crysterium level is unlocked.

 

[Dresden]

Just to throw it off, what about Valkyria Chronicles? Is it less animu than FFXIII?

Spoiler

Valkyria Chronicles seems to have way more soul

Animu is fine, it's all about the execution.

It's funny how terrible the actual animu for VC was, though.

 

[7Th]

FF13 does not hide its tropes behind "realistically styled graphics"; graphics have nothing to do with the quality of a story. You wield "cartoon graphics" as if it would solve the mistakes of FF13. It doesn't.

There's good and bad with every kind of writing, and camp has these categories as well. Looking at Toriyama, he's not even very good at writing camp (see: FFX-2). Comedy can be good—if you know how to write it (see: Phoenix Wright).

Don't put a halo above your head and tell me to "take vidya less seriously". You have the tendency to pretend you're above the fray, but you get quite serious in discussion too.

FFXIII does not try to hide its tropes, but people such as FTWer, for example, perceive them less than they do in games like SO4 or Vesperie due to the more polished, "realistically styled" presentation. That's what I meant, sorry for my bad choice of words.

You wield "cartoon graphics" as if it would solve the mistakes of FF13. It doesn't.

It's not just "cartoon graphics", though; it's changing everything to fit the cartoony visuals.

There's good and bad with every kind of writing, and camp has these categories as well. Looking at Toriyama, he's not even very good at writing camp (see: FFX-2). Comedy can be good—if you know how to write it (see: Phoenix Wright).

I'm thinking about it looking for what would work better with the game's current characters. It's not that the style change immediately makes everything better, it's that it makes for an appropriate first step in moving everything towards the best possible direction.

Don't put a halo above your head and tell me to "take vidya less seriously". You have the tendency to pretend you're above the fray, but you get quite serious in discussion too.

What can I say? I'm serious in my desire for vidya to be fun and stylish.

 

[IronFistedChampion]

Never mind.

 

[dramatis]

Both very true.

Also, get that post count up, you junior status is unsightly.

Don't think it's a bad idea to stay junior for a while yet :lol It's like growing up, stuff like this can't be rushed.

 

[Dresden]

Don't think it's a bad idea to stay junior for a while yet :lol It's like growing up, stuff like this can't be rushed.

You're missing out on the free porn that gets sent to your mailbox when you become a member. I remember the day I got my copy. It was like a dream come true.

You guys just don't understand the subtleties behind FFXIII's story. It's a clever allusion to our political climate. Pulse=white people, fal'cie=japanese people. The whole thing is a metaphor for World War 2. Ever wonder why Lightning is a woman? That's because it's really deep.

 

[Cep]

Don't think it's a bad idea to stay junior for a while yet :lol It's like growing up, stuff like this can't be rushed.

Until you run afoul of duckroll (as we all eventually must) and perma'd.

You guys just don't understand the subtleties behind FFXIII's story. It's a clever allusion to our political climate. Pulse=white people, fal'cie=japanese people. The whole thing is a metaphor for World War 2. Ever wonder why Lightning is a woman? That's because it's really deep.

:lol

 

[7Th]

But that is exactly what you imply when you demand for more camp and style.

You seem to think they are substitutes for good writing, they are not.

Not really. I think they're a step in the right direction, not substitutes for good writing or anything.

The reason why some (and not just you, I have had this argument before) like it is because when someone points ans says: 'This is shitty,' people like you can answer: 'Yeah, but it is supposed to be. It is not taking itself seriously'.

What does "shitty" mean in the first place, anyway? Not fun? Because if something isn't fun, it really is bad regardless of how seriously or not-seriously it takes itself.

 

[Cep]

What does "shitty" mean in the first place, anyway? Not fun? Because if something isn't fun, it really is bad regardless of how seriously or not-seriously it takes itself.

Stop pretending to be obtuse, it means poorly written.

Not really. I think they're a step in the right direction, not substitutes for good writing or anything.

Well then, stop bringing it into conversations where the writing is being critiqued (I am implying that I do not believe you, just in case you do not know what I mean).

 

[Dresden]

Final Fantasy 13 = Killer 7 II?

They're both on rails, so yes.

 

[sazabirules]

Anyone willing to give me advice for the

Spoiler

Chapter 11 boss? I got him under 2 million but the doom killed me.

 

[Basileus777]

God I hate chapter 11. Can I just zoom through this chapter and skip all the grinding and side-stuff?

 

[ULTROS!]

Anyone willing to give me advice for the

Spoiler

Chapter 11 boss? I got him under 2 million but the doom killed me.

Spoiler

Hetanocheir or Alexander?

If Hetanocheir, use fortisol + ethersol, then spam buffs and you can give Fang medic/cure if your want