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[7Th]

Stop pretending to be obtuse, it means poorly written.

The quality of the writing depends on the how effective it is in achieving the intention of the writer, I believe. Camp is supposed to be catchy and entretaining; if camp isn't catchy and entretaining, I don't see why anyone would disagree with the assessment of the low quality of its writing.

 

[dramatis]

It's not just "cartoon graphics", though; it's changing everything to fit the cartoony visuals.

I'm thinking about it looking for what would work better with the game's current characters. It's not that the style change immediately makes everything better, it's that it makes for an appropriate first step in moving everything towards the best possible direction.

What can I say? I'm serious in my desire for vidya to be fun and stylish.

I don't think so. Taking a serious approach, or taking a comedic approach—these are two separate tracks that can be very good in their individual ways. But failing at one does not mean that it would succeed in another. Replacing the graphics and "changing everything to fit the visuals" does not mean it will be better. I can come up with, off the top of my head, a few possible storylines branching out from several points in 13 that could have made the story better in the serious track. The essence of making something better isn't removing stuff: it's refining the approach or redoing the parts that don't work.

There is a best possible direction for drama, but it's a different best possible direction for comedy. FF13 is an action/drama story, in a world that does not lend itself to humor. To redo everything for the sake of cartoon and comedy? You might as well spare the time fitting in the pieces and instead craft a new narrative.

Until you run afoul of duckroll (as you eventually will) and perma'd.

I try my best to steer clear (meaning I run when I caught a foul wind blowing).

 

[Pooya]

Anyone willing to give me advice for the

Spoiler

Chapter 11 boss? I got him under 2 million but the doom killed me.

Spoiler

try to poison him and keep him poisoned for the entire battle, it should go down before the doom counter starts and gives you 5 stars, if doom counter happened use summon when the counter is near the end, this bypasses the doom

 

[Dresden]

God I hate chapter 11. Can just zoom through this chapter and skip all the grinding and side-stuff?

I'd do at least a couple, it'll make your life easier later on.

But yes, I hated chapter 11 as well. I was like OH GOD I'M FREE but I was as free as someone dully questing in WoW.

 

[Crash Station]

I don't see how the adventures of a boy who grows into a man, has a wife, kids, a castle and more is generic. If anything, the stories in Dragon Quest IV, V, and VII are more novel, better written and ballsy than anything in the Final Fantasy series bar VI.

What about the part where you're turned to stone in Dragon Quest V? Along with your wife, you're turned to stone in a faraway tower. You just became a father, you've only seen your children once. Then you're carted away from a merchant who thinks you're a statue. You stand around, treated as a lawn ornament as you watch the owner's son grows up as your own children live life fatherless. There are hardly any words in this one scene and the emotions evoked equate to weakness, you're truly feel weak during this scene.

That one scene is probably more powerful and better written than any Final Fantasy scene. So much for "generic".

It's just that it seems that (and this seems to have been proven with this entry) there's a subset of FF fans who are completely incapable of appreciating adventure. FF games and DQ games are complete opposites: FF games are about the characters, DQ games are about the world, which is the character.

I'm convinced that if you think Dragon Quest games are generic you have the imagination level of a doorknob.

Okay, I'll concede. The DQ worlds are by no means generic. However, the dialogue and presentation definitely are. The stories depend on the entry. DQ8's is definitely generic.

 

[sazabirules]

Spoiler

Hetanocheir or Alexander?

If Hetanocheir, use fortisol + ethersol, then spam buffs and you can give Fang medic/cure if your want

Spoiler

I mean Barthandelus.

 

[Cep]

Okay, I'll concede. The DQ worlds are by no means generic. However, the dialogue and presentation definitely are. The stories depend on the entry. DQ8's is definitely generic.

I think the point that Himuro is trying to make is that the 'world' often takes precedence over the characters, and even the dialogue, and It is the events (in both their complexity and simplicity) that mold the story.

So when comparing a game like FF to a game like DQ, FF (with all its trappings) may seem 'better,' but their approaches are so dissimilar that comparing them directly does neither justice.

 

[Crash Station]

I think the point that Himuro is trying to make is that the 'world' often takes precedence over the characters, and even the dialogue, and It is the events (in both their complexity and simplicity) that mold the story.

So when comparing a game like FF to a game like DQ, FF (with all its trappings) may seem 'better,' but their approaches are so dissimilar that comparing them directly does neither justice.

Yeah, we should probably stop talking about DQ in an FF thread. Nothing good can come out of it.

 

[7Th]

I don't think so. Taking a serious approach, or taking a comedic approach—these are two separate tracks that can be very good in their individual ways. But failing at one does not mean that it would succeed in another. Replacing the graphics and "changing everything to fit the visuals" does not mean it will be better. I can come up with, off the top of my head, a few possible storylines branching out from several points in 13 that could have made the story better in the serious track. The essence of making something better isn't removing stuff: it's refining the approach or redoing the parts that don't work.

As I see it, making FFXIII truly work as a serious, SERIOUS story would mean giving it to a non-Japanese developer. I'm trying to think of what S-E has done that has worked and I believe going for a more abstract approach would be the BEST POSSIBLE route they could take. Obviously, there are ways to improve the story while keeping it "serious" and "realistically styled"; I just believe that, with what video games are currently capable of, a fantasy story is much better suited to something more colorful and impressionistic.

Spoiler

I do agree in that there is a most simple way of making FFXIII better, though. You could single-handedly remove most of the tutorial and filler by taking away Fang's arbitrary memory loss.

 

[Dresden]

Haha.

Killer 7 is about Japanese culture and politics being at war with western sensibilities, so that's why I made the connection.

Oh. I didn't get that at all. I never beat Killer7, I thought it was dull when I played it.

Although back in the day I also thought Halo was the greatest game ever made. I miss being young.

 

[vazel]

As I see it, making FFXIII truly work as a serious, SERIOUS story would mean giving it to a non-Japanese developer. I'm trying to think of what S-E has done that has worked and I believe going for a more abstract approach would be the BEST POSSIBLE route they could take. Obviously, there are ways to improve the story while keeping it "serious" and "realistically styled"; I just believe that, with what video games are currently capable of, a fantasy story is much better suited to something more colorful and impressionistic.

Spoiler

I do agree in that there is a most simple way of making FFXIII better, though. You could single-handedly remove most of the tutorial and filler by taking away Fang's arbitrary memory loss.

Although Sydney's character design is very much animu Vagrant Story had a serious story. It was praised for its dialogue and cutscene direction. It had few cutscenes though(which is probably a good thing, Square would've probably fucked up that game if they went overboard with cutscenes).

 

[Cep]

Although Sydey's character design is very much animu Vagrant Story had a serious story. It was praised for its dialogue and cutscene direction. It had few cutscenes though(which is probably a good thing, Square would've probably fucked up that game if they went overboard with cutscenes).

Yeah, Sydney's design is pretty bad.

Though funny enough, all the others rock.

 

[vazel]

Yeah, Sydney's design is pretty bad.

Though funny enough, all the others rock.

I think Ashley's design qualifies as animu too due to those two hair horns and only wearing an apron thing on his chest.

I don't think these designs are bad though. Just animu in an otherwise serious toned game.

 

[B.K.]

Yeah, Sydney's design is pretty bad.

No it isn't. His design is better than any design in Nomura's Final Fantasy games.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

As I see it, making FFXIII truly work as a serious, SERIOUS story would mean giving it to a non-Japanese developer.

Or hiring a writer that doesn't suck.

And before anybody asks, yes.

 

[Cep]

I think maybe Ashley's design qualifies too due to those two hair horns.

Oh god, how could I forget about him.

Sydney's design makes more sense in comparison

No it isn't. His design is better than any design in Nomura's Final Fantasy games.

Now that is just stupid.

*See avatar for more details.*

 

[Dresden]

No it isn't. His design is better than any design in Nomura's Final Fantasy games.

 

[Cep]

Or hiring a writer that doesn't suck.

And before anybody asks, yes.

Nice of you to save us the trouble.

 

[7Th]

Although Sydney's character designs are very much animu Vagrant Story had a serious story. It was praised for its dialogue and cutscene direction. It had few cutscenes though(which is probably a good thing, Square would've probably fucked up that game if they went overboard with cutscenes).

Vagrant Story has a great translation, but the dialogue is a little bit too awkward and extremely convenient and the characters are all characterized more through exposition than through actual characterization. I love the game for its great dungeon crawling, but I wouldn't call its storytelling more than just competent.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I think Ashley's design qualifies as animu too due to those two hair horns and only wearing an apron thing on his chest.

Don't forget the assless chaps.

 

[H_Prestige]

The real issue at the heart of the FFX vs FFXIII debate is that at the core, FFX always was a terrible Final Fantasy game. It was clear from the start it was designed to appeal to a perceived audience of "casual hardcore" fans who just wanted to see lots of anime melodrama cut scenes, march forward, and feel the battles meant they were playing the story.

FFXIII refines this formula by cutting the rest of the fat, and offering up Gran Pulse to give the rest of the players something to actually /do/ in the game.

But it's still a fundamentally broken formula.

The PSOne FF trilogy beats the hell out of both games in terms of their underlying logic and structure. FFXII may as well be god's gift to gaming by comparison and feels like an impossibly rich game compared to the Animu Twins.

The irony of playing FFXIII is that it gave me a brand new appreciation for XII - I actually went and ordered the FFXII strategy guide and am gonna play through the game in a more complete sense to blow it totally out, after I wrap up my FFXIII game.

In spite of my serious criticisms, I'm not trying to troll FFXIII or say it's a shit game. It's very entertaining. I do want to see the end of the story. But it's no way in the same class as the 8-bit, 16-bit, PSOne, or Ivalice Final Fantasy games.

+1

 

[vazel]

Vagrant Story has a great translation, but the dialogue is a little bit too awkward and extremely convenient and the characters are all characterized more through exposition than through actual characterization. I love the game for its great dungeon crawling, but I wouldn't call its storytelling more than just competent.

 

[dramatis]

As I see it, making FFXIII truly work as a serious, SERIOUS story would mean giving it to a non-Japanese developer. I'm trying to think of what S-E has done that has worked and I believe going for a more abstract approach would be the BEST POSSIBLE route they could take. Obviously, there are ways to improve the story while keeping it "serious" and "realistically styled"; I just believe that, with what video games are currently capable of, a fantasy story is much better suited to something more colorful and impressionistic.

Spoiler

I do agree in that there is a most simple way of making FFXIII better, though. You could single-handedly remove most of the tutorial and filler by taking away Fang's arbitrary memory loss.

Your spoiler is not a solution to the game's woes at all.

Spoiler

The game's chief problem is that it has a crappy "main character"—I am talking about Vanille. The gameplay caters to the narrative, and the narrative caters to Vanille. She is the root of all problems. To suggest something as silly as maintaining Fang's memories will making 13 better, when whether or not she had those memories is pretty trivial, is really missing the point.

Japanese people can write stories just fine. All SE has to do is hire someone who can. Forking it out to a non-Japanese developer isn't going to suddenly make the game a serious work that actually works when great stories know no cultural boundaries.

I listed previously why I said BEST POSSIBLE route is not "hey let's make this cartoony". The script and story come before the goddamn visuals. It is definitely not the BEST POSSIBLE route just to take a more abstract approach; the BEST POSSIBLE route is good writing!

 

[Fimbulvetr]

He also thinks FFT is boring.

 

[Dresden]

I listed previously why I said BEST POSSIBLE route is not "hey let's make this cartoony". The script and story come before the goddamn visuals. It is definitely not the BEST POSSIBLE route just to take a more abstract approach; the BEST POSSIBLE route is good writing!

Uh, no. The best possible route is packing in huggable body-size pillows with nude female characters on them. Sales for XIII would have tripled.

 

[Gritesh]

20 hours into this game and my PS3 had the YLOD

Sadly I just can't bring myself to restart this game on my new console...

 

[7Th]

He also thinks FFT is boring.

That's a rather inaccurate statement, FFT is my favorite Final Fantasy game.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

That's a rather inaccurate statement, FFT is my favorite Final Fantasy game.

Okay, you think FFT's story is boring.

 

[IronFistedChampion]

Ok so I started Chapter 11, beat Hope's

Spoiler

summon

and I was given the ability to do missions. When should I upgrade my weapons?

 

[dramatis]

Uh, no. The best possible route is packing in huggable body-size pillows with nude female characters on them. Sales for XIII would have tripled.

Would be even better if they packaged it with one of those mousepads that have, uh, wrist-rests made of Jihl's boobs.

 

[jiggle]

Ok so I started Chapter 11, beat Hope's

Spoiler

summon

and I was given the ability to do missions. When should I upgrade my weapons?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20582347&postcount=14150

 

[Dresden]

Would be even better if they packaged it with one of those mousepads that have, uh, wrist-rests made of Jihl's boobs.

And make it so that if you press down on one of the, uh, wrist-rests, the mousepad produces a moaning noise.

I think I just solved Japan.

 

[Cep]

And make it so that if you press down on one of the, uh, wrist-rests, the mousepad produces a moaning noise.

I think I just solved Japan.

Vanille: *moans*

 

[Firestorm]

20 hours into this game and my PS3 had the YLOD

Sadly I just can't bring myself to restart this game on my new console...

Why don't you just switch hard drives?

 

[Cep]

Why don't you just switch hard drives?

If I am not mistaken, it gets formatted when it is placed into a foreign ps3.

 

[7Th]

Your spoiler is not a solution to the game's woes at all.

Spoiler

The game's chief problem is that it has a crappy "main character"—I am talking about Vanille. The gameplay caters to the narrative, and the narrative caters to Vanille. She is the root of all problems. To suggest something as silly as maintaining Fang's memories will making 13 better, when whether or not she had those memories is pretty trivial, is really missing the point.

After replaying the game in English, I really don't think the narrative actually caters to that "main character" that much. I won't disagree in that said character is obviously the main character, but the game itself doesn't really show us how said "main character" is actually feeling at any point of the story because the presentation of the story is incoherent and very haphazard. I mean, it's not hard to see where FFXIII's narrative problems lay when you realize that all of locations chosen as background for the "dramatic scenes" through which the characters were supposed to be developed were randomly chosen and bear no connection whatsoever to the contents of the actual "dramatic scene".

 

[dramatis]

And make it so that if you press down on one of the, uh, wrist-rests, the mousepad produces a moaning noise.

I think I just solved Japan.

Add in one of those action figures of Snow where if you push a button he'll say, "HERO!" and we have a premium bundle.

 

[Dresden]

Add in one of those action figures of Snow where if you push a button he'll say, "HERO!" and we have a premium bundle.

Genius. We just solved an entire genre's inability to penetrate the American market. It just needed more lubrication.

 

[7Th]

Okay, you think FFT's story is boring.

It wasn't very interesting and the characters were so single-minded it was boring. I have nothing about predictable characters, but can't they at least give them an ounce of life and personality? I mean, the scene that I remember the most is that optional cutscene in which Mustadio gives a birthday present to a very "tsundere" Agrias.

 

[Crash Station]

The best game story of all time, Silent Hill 2, was written by Japanese people.

Japanese can write a game story just fine.

I like Silent Hill 3's story more.

Edit: The last 3 or so posts I've made have been off topic. I don't know how safe that is so I'm just gonna leave. I'm done with the game for now anyway.

 

[7Th]

The best game story of all time, Silent Hill 2, was written by Japanese people.

Japanese can write a game story just fine.

I never said that the Japanese couldn't write a game story; I just said that the Japanese game stories that I've enjoyed the most have been in quirky, cartoony games.

I must confess that I have never played a Silent Hill game, however.

 

[dramatis]

After replaying the game in English, I really don't think the narrative actually caters to that "main character" that much. I won't disagree in that said character is obviously the main character, but the game itself doesn't really show us how said "main character" is actually feeling at any point of the story because the presentation of the story is incoherent and very haphazard. I mean, it's not hard to see where FFXIII's narrative problems lie when you realize that all of locations chosen as background for the "dramatic scenes" through which the characters are developed were randomly chosen and bear no connection to the contents of the actual "dramatic scene".

I have no idea why you mention locations. While it's part of the problem that many settings have no relevance to the story, that's not close to the chief reasons why the narrative sucks. The "main character" of a story is extremely vital to the success of the story, which is why even though you are quick to place blame at the doorstep of the story not conveying the feelings of the character properly, I can say that the character is lacking all the necessary qualities for leading in the story written out in 13 and I can detail why—in The Channel...When I'm not swamped with work

Good scripts write in subtext without expository voiceover. If the script can't do that for the character, then it is not only the script's fault but also the fault of the character not having the depth for any sort of decent subtext.

 

[Zoe]

Finally beat 64. Can't believe I didn't 5-star it, I was under the time! >_<

Now do I go back and do 62 and say good-bye to all of the Adamantaimai, or do I keep trying to farm...

(don't have any ultimate weapons yet)

 

[Papercuts]

Anyone willing to give me advice for the

Spoiler

Chapter 11 boss? I got him under 2 million but the doom killed me.

Spoiler

What team/strat are you doing? Either way, he has way too much HP to already be doing doom, for me he didn't cast until he had less than 1 million, and I squeaked the win with 800 left, so try to be more offensive/debuff him a lot.

 

[7Th]

I have no idea why you mention locations. While it's part of the problem that many settings have no relevance to the story, that's not close to the chief reasons why the narrative sucks. The "main character" of a story is extremely vital to the success of the story, which is why even though you are quick to place blame at the doorstep of the story not conveying the feelings of the character properly, I can say that the character is lacking all the necessary qualities for leading in the story written out in 13 and I can detail why—in The Channel...When I'm not swamped with work

A character is only as good as the script. There is a perfect example on how characters are not inherently good or bad in comic books: the excellent Batman written by Grant Morrison in his Batman run is a completely different character from the obnoxious Batman written by Frank Miller in All-Star Batman and Robin yet they're both undoubtedly Batman.

Good scripts write in subtext without expository voiceover. If the script can't do that for the character, then it is not only the script's fault but also the fault of the character not having the depth for any sort of decent subtext.

I've seen plenty of people write tons of decently written stories that detail fanon subtext for said main character. Whatever happens inside the head of a character is not something static, it is the job of the writer to make it flourish.

 

[NewLib]

So I just realized that through the first 11 chapters of the game, I had the battle system put on slow.

....

I want to put a fork through my eye.

 

[firehawk12]

Finally beat 64. Can't believe I didn't 5-star it, I was under the time! >_<

Now do I go back and do 62 and say good-bye to all of the Adamantaimai, or do I keep trying to farm...

(don't have any ultimate weapons yet)

I would say no, but that's because I find farming turtles on Gran Pulse more enjoyable than the constant load/reload grind of farming on Eden.

 

[stolin]

Finished the story part of the game a few days ago in 55 hours. I spent good chunk of time working on the missions before completing it. Since then I'm now at 80 hours as I've been working through all the endgame stuff. Here's my thoughts..

First 24 hours were too linear and simple, I understand the reasons but it should have been shortened. I didn't like the locked characters & contant switches. The next 30 hours were awesome. Once the game opens up and you have free roam to explore and do some missions I remember why I really wanted to play this game. All the parts that I missed from FFX & FFXII were now back in some form.

The next 25 hours were really about understanding the game systems, fully upgrading in Crytarium, upgrading weapons & accessories, 5 starring most of the missions, hunting for materials, party stategy & setup . This was my favorite section, there's a lot of depth here if you play this stuff.

I suspect I have about another 20 hours to do get the Platinum. It's going really fast now and I'm over that last hump. For as much as I felt let down by the beginning the end game has really paid off for me. My 2 cents.

 

[jiggle]

Finally beat 64. Can't believe I didn't 5-star it, I was under the time! >_<

Now do I go back and do 62 and say good-bye to all of the Adamantaimai, or do I keep trying to farm...

(don't have any ultimate weapons yet)

u mean turning them into long gui?
i wouldn't, not without ultimate weapons
the regular version hard enough as it is XD

 

[Styles]

I would say no, but that's because I find farming turtles on Gran Pulse more enjoyable than the constant load/reload grind of farming on Eden.

Definitely, I regret finishing all the missions before attempting to farm for traps and ingots.