EndcatOmega
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Final Fantasy XIV |OT7| 1000 years DRAGONSONG War
- Thread starter suzu
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All that matters.
Very well said, totally agree. Also T13, the last phase is the weirdest design ever. Incredibly anti-climatic. T9 definitely still feels the hardest to beat mechanic wise.
Ehh? Akh Morn nukes going off are pretty climactic. And you can actually take the whole fight in unlike T9 where it's all panic all the time.
My impression was that you were seeing fights as being significantly more trivial because of your gear level being much higher than people who cleared it early the first time you saw fights. Therefore, the fights were more trivial or your perception of their difficulty is swayed. All I meant is that that notion is perfectly okay to have. I would also say FCoB suffered more because of all of the things I've said about it. Instant Kill mechanics and punishment as gear goes up versus FCoB became easier as you geared. You say it suffered, I don't see an issue with it. I would consider it discourse, and not dismissive.
I suppose it comes down to what you value more; gear easing battle difficulty or mechanics still being the driving force between clears. I don't believe there's a wrong opinion as to which of these people prefer. My opinion just differs from yours it seems, and that's fine.
I think a lot of people instantly assumed SCoB Savage, which seemingly made said people quite nervous. Then again, this could very well be me projecting or making far too broad of assumptions. I welcome steps up from Final Coil, as I'm sure many other people currently raiding FCoB in a progression-style will agree with. All I hope is that those steps up are the right ones and not the wrong ones.*
*
Of course when I say right and wrong I mean in my own opinion and viewpoint, which I acknowledge isn't something that is universal.
I think you misunderstood me: last phase in T13 is a joke is what I meant
Basically just repeating phase one..
I wasn't even here and have two comments on things!
To me, T11 felt kind of like Final Coil's take on Second Coil design. There are two major mechanics (adds, tethers) that make the fight about "vs the mechanics" and not really the boss. They just put an, at the time, tight DPS check there to force the boss back into relevancy but, honestly, Kaliya is just kind of there? Still, I actually really like T11 (please don't drag me into farms based off of this comment) simply because there's a sense of "danger" to the fight still; the dance of the fight doesn't feel too obtrusive and it's not about removing players from the fight but doing their role alongside it. You have room for errors to a point and then it cascades once you make a big mistake.
To be fair, we spent about a month trying to get to the final phase (consistently) without Dragon Kick and/or without VIT accessories everywhere. There were damage rolls we just couldn't survive even with everything we had available used.
We got it the week we had DK back, if I recall? It felt rather anticlimactic at the time since we went from The Struggle™ to "who gives a fuck?" very fast.
Yeah, I think there's room in design for "tight gear checks" alongside "make sure the mechanics happen." That said, I think I'd rather more of the fight to be the former simply for farming sanity. Beating mechanics is fun and all but farming mechanics is less so, depending on how tedious they go. Maybe if they do this on the turns with no trash...! Or the fights that aren't super long?
When we first learned Final Coil, I figured a lot of the mechanics would keep people out from random farms since dealing with certain things felt way too hectic for low communication settings (and/or maybe I'm just a jackass). And then about a month later we already had the gear to remove some of the debuff and timing needs. And then two months in we could remove a person from mechanics if we wanted. Watching gear remove the bite of some of the fights was weird, especially when it was the only hard part of the fight.
The "problem" is that Final Coil relied a lot on binary checks: You either died and needed to figure out how to not have that happen or you survived and literally gave no fucks anymore. This does lend itself to more mechanics that you do "just enough" to get by rather than "do it right or else."
I think Final Coil did well enough for the most part, though.
To me, T11 felt kind of like Final Coil's take on Second Coil design. There are two major mechanics (adds, tethers) that make the fight about "vs the mechanics" and not really the boss. They just put an, at the time, tight DPS check there to force the boss back into relevancy but, honestly, Kaliya is just kind of there? Still, I actually really like T11 (please don't drag me into farms based off of this comment) simply because there's a sense of "danger" to the fight still; the dance of the fight doesn't feel too obtrusive and it's not about removing players from the fight but doing their role alongside it. You have room for errors to a point and then it cascades once you make a big mistake.
To be fair, we spent about a month trying to get to the final phase (consistently) without Dragon Kick and/or without VIT accessories everywhere. There were damage rolls we just couldn't survive even with everything we had available used.
We got it the week we had DK back, if I recall? It felt rather anticlimactic at the time since we went from The Struggle™ to "who gives a fuck?" very fast.
Yeah, I think there's room in design for "tight gear checks" alongside "make sure the mechanics happen." That said, I think I'd rather more of the fight to be the former simply for farming sanity. Beating mechanics is fun and all but farming mechanics is less so, depending on how tedious they go. Maybe if they do this on the turns with no trash...! Or the fights that aren't super long?
When we first learned Final Coil, I figured a lot of the mechanics would keep people out from random farms since dealing with certain things felt way too hectic for low communication settings (and/or maybe I'm just a jackass). And then about a month later we already had the gear to remove some of the debuff and timing needs. And then two months in we could remove a person from mechanics if we wanted. Watching gear remove the bite of some of the fights was weird, especially when it was the only hard part of the fight.
The "problem" is that Final Coil relied a lot on binary checks: You either died and needed to figure out how to not have that happen or you survived and literally gave no fucks anymore. This does lend itself to more mechanics that you do "just enough" to get by rather than "do it right or else."
I think Final Coil did well enough for the most part, though.
I think you misunderstood me: last phase in T13 is a joke is what I meant
Basically just repeating phase one..
I mean, I like the final phase because it builds on mechanics that they evolve through phase 1 and 2. Megaflare > 1 Pillar > 2 Pillars. Earthshakers that vanish before the next set > persistent Earthshakers. Plus throwing in the Tether mechanics and the Akh Morns instead of Flattens and yeah, I think it's a very coherent fight that builds and comes to a head.
Comparing it to T9 where Phase 1 is about dropping meteors, dodging Lunar Dynamo/Iron Chariot, Ravensbeak, and Meteorwhatevers and Phase 4 is about Fire/Ice/Thunder mechanics, Iron Chariot, Lunar Dynamo, Meteor Streams, Divebombs, Thermionic Beam, Gravity whatevers, and Bahamut's Favor/Claw.
Or comparing it to T5 where Phase 1 is Death Sentence/Plummet, Liquid Hell and a fireball and Phase 4(?) is Death Sentence/Plummet/Hatch/and Liquid Hells.
I suppose you can argue they didn't change up enough in the final phase of Bahamut, which I guess I could agree with. Maybe they could have added another wrinkle or so.
I think the best way to put it is that T9 gives you mechanics that you'll most likely fail and wipe due to the unknown; T13 gives you mechanics you know what to do with and then you wipe to failing to keep up. T9 was a barrier of entry being higher for the final phase; T13 is a barrier of execution.
Disclaimer: I realize, as a non-Progression Style Raider (tm), my view is inherently worth less and I should probably just go sit in a corner or something but that sounds boring.
11 is also coincidentally the one I've seen people calling for nerfs on the most (tethersssssss); it's the one where fucking up the big mechanic will hurt the most (Imdugud at this point can gain stacks after like half the moves in final phase and it not even matter.) Kaliya is actively engaged with the tanks, but the rest of the fight seems to be there to prevent DPS from being able to just tunnel. Which I appreciate.
Designing fights for farming sanity sounds really depressing. Granted, I'd also rather go wipe for three hours trying to work out if solo tank 10 is possible than farm 10 (or... Ugh... Ponies...) for three hours, so maybe it's a progression raider thing I wouldn't understand and I really should just go sit in a corner.
All I really know is that post-echo post-nerf T8 is still a more engaging fight than post-echo no-nerf 12, and I'm hoping they include something of that philosophy in future fights.
11 is also coincidentally the one I've seen people calling for nerfs on the most (tethersssssss); it's the one where fucking up the big mechanic will hurt the most (Imdugud at this point can gain stacks after like half the moves in final phase and it not even matter.) Kaliya is actively engaged with the tanks, but the rest of the fight seems to be there to prevent DPS from being able to just tunnel. Which I appreciate.
Designing fights for farming sanity sounds really depressing. Granted, I'd also rather go wipe for three hours trying to work out if solo tank 10 is possible than farm 10 (or... Ugh... Ponies...) for three hours, so maybe it's a progression raider thing I wouldn't understand and I really should just go sit in a corner.
All I really know is that post-echo post-nerf T8 is still a more engaging fight than post-echo no-nerf 12, and I'm hoping they include something of that philosophy in future fights.
Oh right. I think I agree with you there on the individual vs group. But I reckon CT is just easy generally. I feel like there's not much danger in those fights and mechanics are very forgiving, whether you are 8 people or 24.
When Shiva first came out the mechanics weren't that complex but they hit hard and if you screwed up you would probably die. That's a whole different ball game.
I hope it's tuned more towards the later.
More mechanics where I am dead because of the other melee or the OT screwing up. \o/
I'm finally in the game, started with a male Thau Lalafell, already on level 8 focusing on Main Story and Thaumaturge Guild quests. Should I keep on those or try to finish the random ones I encounter as well¿ I don't wanna get overleveled...
I also have a question, how can I start a "field class"¿ I wanna do alchemy because I love the Atelier games but I don't know how to start or what I need. I've been picking crafting items but have no clue what to do with them. Also, does the game focus on party leveling-up like XI or that comes later¿
EDIT: Oh I forgot another question. When can I upgrade to a Black Mage and when can I get a chocobo mount of my own¿ (not the rented ones)
I also have a question, how can I start a "field class"¿ I wanna do alchemy because I love the Atelier games but I don't know how to start or what I need. I've been picking crafting items but have no clue what to do with them. Also, does the game focus on party leveling-up like XI or that comes later¿
EDIT: Oh I forgot another question. When can I upgrade to a Black Mage and when can I get a chocobo mount of my own¿ (not the rented ones)
People don't like insta-kill mechanics, even if they happen to be fairly easy mechanics I guess. Which is fair, insta-kill doesn't feel fun, even if it's easily avoided since it takes a lot of control from you. bThat said, I don't think tethers are even really that bad once you have a plan in place. You have a lot of room to make mistakes (and the margin of error went up with gear) and if all else fails, you have a buddy you can already heap all the blame onto!
Please don't actually do that people.
Should they be designed for farming sanity? No. Not even close. But I'd really appreciate it if each clear wasn't razor intense focus for 10 minutes (or 15+ if the expansion just makes things last longer!). Then again, I guess I can just repeat this when they unlock it and not for the week-to-week bits? It won't matter as much during lockout.
I may also be projecting the idea of farming Savage Second Coil into a lockout scenario and wondering why you're making me think these things.
It's kind of weird in a way, too: T12 and T13 kind of shift to CT-style design for a handful of mechanics? It's not really a group mechanic, mostly individual mechanics being dealt with. One person cares about Brand. One person cares about Bluefire/Redfire. One pair deals with Earthshaker. Those mechanics in T12/T13 are pretty much the types of mechanics I'm thinking they'll try to use more of for Alexander Normal mode. They'll just put them on a fight with more room for recovery.
Honestly, Shiva is probably a poor example. Even near release time of Shiva we could have 10+ deaths, lose both the tanks, healer LB3, and still make it out of the fight. Nothing hits hard in that fight, really, and even that early was people "disrespecting" the fight by finding out you can just stand through most everything and not care.
Edit: Then again, those were also super hilarious Shivas so maybe I do want that again.
Dimitri LH
Member
You have to be lvl 20 and far enough ahead in the story to get a chocobo. Once you get to join a Grand Company via story campaign, then you can get one. Im trying to get one now.....need 2K Company seals. You get seals either doing company quests or FATEs.
I think the big design problem with this game is that the entire game is too friendly and very hand holding all the way through and when it comes to the hardest content people are walking into it with very high, easily obtainable gear and they just get destroyed.
T11 is super easy and there is really nothing to the entire fight but the one thing that is needed is communication which you won't find in DF for the most part. There are some people who just don't get it and don't pay attention and there is always one person who wipes to the same mechanic over and over and some just never get better.
It's funny how difficult T9 is and then you go into T10-T11 and it's ridiculous how easy those turns are. T12 takes some coordination and T13 has a nice balance to it from what I've seen.
I'm working on T12 now and have that down to the final phase about 15% (DF right now but with our LS there is no doubt it'll be a fast clear) and really so far it's not bad but again requires strong communication. I've also been working on T13 and I can consistently get to and in the first set of divebombs which isn't bad for only a few runs of it (although I imagine the add phase is gonna be hell lol).
Endless-Bravado
Member
Do the sidequests you come across especially in your starting city. Even if you were to level to 50 somehow or for some reason the instanced fights and dungeons are level synced which will restrict your stats and abilities you can use while doing them.
Once you reach level 10 you can switch classes(Battle/Crafter/Gatherer) by going to whichever guild of said class and talking to the receptionist. I think opening up levequests is also tied to the main story iirc.
You need to get Thaumaturge to level 30 and Archer to level 15. You can get your own chocobo by advancing the main story around the level 20 mark.
It's probaby better to do side quests along with the main scenario so you don't get underleveled and get more gear and Gil along the way.
You can change classes after the level 10 quests.
Black mage is unlocked once you have the Thaumaturge class to level 30 and the Archer class to 15. make sure to do the class quests as they unlock which is every 5 levels.
You can't receive a mount until you have completed the level 20 main quests and have joined a grand company. At that point you'll receive a quest to get your mount which will require you to get 2K seals.
One thing to keep in mind (hopefully) is that the new loot system should alleviate a lot of the need for obsessive farming? Ideally removing some of the RNG from loot frees them up to make the fights themselves more involving/fun for their own sake than having to design them to be mindlessly spammable trying to force pants/bracelets to drop.
If you really want, I probably have an i55 weapon stashed on a retainer somewhere for the full authentic early Shiva experience.
...I forgot about the loot system change.
Yeah, not actually needing to throw bodies at it post-lockout (outside of alt-alt-alt-alt-alt things then?) should alleviate pretty much all the farm fatigue concerns. Then I can worry about solo tanking it or something for whatever the equivalent post-lockout situation is.
I will end you.
So happy about this. I still need FOUR freaking drops from coil, despite having farmed it for quite a while now -.-
Well, I know when I first did it I wasn't disrespecting anything because her skills hit me hard :-(. I mention Shiva because we're talking about content that people can do with randoms that's challenging and I've been in enough Shiva DFs to know that that fight was not easy for a party of eight random peeps but still highly doable. Whereas CT is not really that challenging at all.
Hm ... that's true. I guess EX Primals is still a good comparison point for difficulty, though I still say 8 man WoD, for instance, would still be rough. Either way, both are basically the same sort of mechanics: Mostly individual responsibility with some limited cooperation.
Guess we'll see what happens!
empressdonna
Member
Once you get to level 15 in the main storyline, you can unlock Archer in Gridania.
So, focus on main storyline and leveling THM, then you can worry about getting ARC.
EDIT: Level 15 is when you visit the other areas. Level 10 is when you can unlock other classes in general
HylianScribe
Member
I would call the unweathered and augmented gear/weapons "poverty" or "welfare" due to The Hunt and Syrcus Tower/World of Darkness, but I wouldn't dream of calling the Zodiac relics that. Unless you didn't care about stats (defeating the point of getting a relic IMO), melding cost you a lot of GIL or spirit bonding time (losing your sanity) and then blowing up materia (costing you more GIL and sanity).
And before the nerfs the amount of time it took to get from base relic to Zeta probably eclipsed the time it took some of us to learn and clear coil. Sure it wasn't necessarily skill, though the base relic stage in 2.0 requiring Hydra/Chimera and the HM Primals was probably the most daunting step for its time since many people struggled with those fights initially in i70 or lower gear. I remember thinking GAF FC was trolling me saying Hydra was easy when I wiped on it for like two weeks in DF. Then Titan HM...ugh.
Yoshida did say we were getting 9 new zones including the "Floating continent and Ishgard" Depending on whether Ishgard is considered two separate zones due to "The Pillars" and "The Foundation" sub zones that means we either 1 or 2 zones we have yet to see. Coerthas Eastern Lowlands makes the most sense alongside Coerthas Northern Highlands as it sounds like the Sea of Clouds zone is to the East of Ishgard near the Abalathia's Spine which on the original map was alongside the Northern Highlands. Think others have also mentioned previously (though I havent seen this info myself) that some zone data info was registered for West Black Shroud in 2.5 patch, although as much as I would like to go to that, it seems the least likely to me given its place on the map and the rest of the new content. But the raised jungle wood that has become west shroud would make a neat place for flying mounts.
I think we might actually see new zones in major patches this time around.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Well if the only two difficulties are really going to be CT and Savage then I suspect they are going to manage to make no one happy except the people who play the expansion for a month and quit after facerolling NM and Lucrezia/CL/DnT. Everyone in between supercasual and nolife can apparently fuck off.
I love Second Coil because of the 1 mistake = raid wipe.
Player A: "I'm feeling good, we got this"
Player B: "Get ready for X mechanic"
Player C: "Wait... I missed that. What Mechanic?"
*Everyone Dies*
Player A: "OK guys we got it next time"
Player C: "OK I got this guys. Mechanic X coming up, move to Y"
Player A: "Oh shit I moved to Z"
*Everyone Dies*
Repeat
Player A: "I'm feeling good, we got this"
Player B: "Get ready for X mechanic"
Player C: "Wait... I missed that. What Mechanic?"
*Everyone Dies*
Player A: "OK guys we got it next time"
Player C: "OK I got this guys. Mechanic X coming up, move to Y"
Player A: "Oh shit I moved to Z"
*Everyone Dies*
Repeat
It's impossible to tell what the difficulties will really shake out to be, so I wouldn't worry about it just yet.
I hate that guy.
But it'll be a progression on difficulty on Alexander Hard Mode. Where maybe you can clear the first couple of levels, other raiders can clear the next levels, but then only Lucrezia/CL/DnT can clear the last level?
Since everyone has seen the story mode and fought the fights there, what does it matter if you can't clear something? Gives you something to always work for and gives Lucrezia/CL/DnT a harder challenge. Everyone wins!
I really hope the new raid is as easy as CT, might actually do it then right now coil is to tough for me.
irfaanator
Banned
yes
I think the joke is that DRG die a lot.
Honestly, nothing in SCoB is actually really all that difficult, the problem with most of the mechanics is that they set it up so it was really easy for player A to kill player B. Or in the case of T7, Player A could kill Player B, C, D, through Z. It's not as if kiting or facing away are difficult mechanics, the penalties just made it abundantly obvious when somebody made a mistake, and created a lot of friction within statics.
I also wouldn't call Twines and Zeta, FCoB nerfs, or at least not much of a nerf. For T12, sure, since the first half of the fight is a big DPS check and all that. However the difficulty in T0 and 11 were less DPS checks and more mechanical, I mean it doesn't really matter how good your DPS is in those turns if people are dying a lot.
T13 already assumed you had the DPS to clear T12, and until they changed the way the third add behaved most groups with really high DPS ended up blowing a fair chunk of it in order to get a clean transition. Really, T13 is a combination DPS, positioning, healing, and mitigation check, (in that order.) It does eventually become easy, but only after you've ran it a hundred plus times and have the positioning committed to pure memory. Until that point it's pretty bad.
As for T9, the only phase that might be more difficult than T13 is that final phase, and even that's a bit iffy. Worst thing about that last phase is that most groups need a marker. The elemental dance is reasonably easy if people are free to focus on it, though it's certainly a bit twitchier than T13.
Back to hiding.
It's raising the DPS floor along with the base survivability. It's a huge deal for surviving things, especially when most damage in these turns came down to a binary check of "surviving" or "not surviving."
I mean, so did you.
Literally every encounter in the game.
This is too funny. You act big now but you struggled so long on SCoB. Have some humility about it. It was tough for everyone, you can experience a lot of that challenge again by doing Savage since you apparently have forgotten it.
FYI you were that player A
o:
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