There's atleast one "Hashtag" on this planet
https://www.dailydot.com/society/hashtag-jameson-baby-name/
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First baby born without a gender in Canada
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https://www.dailydot.com/society/hashtag-jameson-baby-name/
Should have used a lowercase B and F.UoT gives no fucks
excelsiorlef
Member
Blue hasn't always been socially a boy's colour and pink a girl's
velociraptor
Junior Member
Yes, I know people in general accept it's not 'black and white' but what does neuroscience tell us?
psychowave
Member
So the baby does, technically, have a sex but they left it unassigned? That's weird. I get the gender distinction, but not classifying sex on a birth certificate is a bit illogical.
Hormone levels influence primary and secondary sexual characteristics. When transitioning from cis-gender to identified gender, people tend to take the hormone that influences the growth of secondary sex characteristics. Also, testosterone is known to influence certain behavioral characteristics that we typically identify with (alpha-) male behavior. These factors either confuse or help solidify one's gender identity, usually.
Hormone levels influence primary and secondary sexual characteristics. When transitioning from cis-gender to identified gender, people tend to take the hormone that influences the growth of secondary sex characteristics. Also, testosterone is known to influence certain behavioral characteristics that we typically identify with (alpha-) male behavior. These factors either confuse or help solidify one's gender identity, usually.
Sunster
Member
which affects no one else besides the child, yes.
ClosingADoor
Member
Unless they teach the kid how to read based on their birth certificate, I don't see how this would ever be an issue. They raise the kid and can teach them about gender. The doctor needs to stick to the biological facts at birth.
No, but laughing / telling off your son when he decides to wear a dress, or when your daughter wants to play with a toy truck is. Kids shouldn't be forced into a particular mold of expectations because they have a penis or vagina.
Soldiussnaku
Member
No capital letters in the lawyers name?
What in the genuine fuck??
What in the genuine fuck??
I think most people (including, apparently, the parent) are ignoring the fact that sex and gender are completely different things.
Biological sex refers to a person's genitalia and hormone configurations. Sex still isn't as cut and dry as some people would think, though. There are male and female and also some people who, for various reasons, are considered intersex and fall on the spectrum between "both" and "neither". This is, again, ONLY referring to genitalia and hormones.
Gender and gender expression is a completely different thing and boils simply down to an individual's personal preference for how they present themselves. You cannot determine a person's gender by looking in their pants. Gender has a yet to be determined biological component, but in simplest terms corresponds to how a person feels about themselves and their body.
You can, generally, assign a sex at birth. You cannot assign a gender (though people try).
Biological sex refers to a person's genitalia and hormone configurations. Sex still isn't as cut and dry as some people would think, though. There are male and female and also some people who, for various reasons, are considered intersex and fall on the spectrum between "both" and "neither". This is, again, ONLY referring to genitalia and hormones.
Gender and gender expression is a completely different thing and boils simply down to an individual's personal preference for how they present themselves. You cannot determine a person's gender by looking in their pants. Gender has a yet to be determined biological component, but in simplest terms corresponds to how a person feels about themselves and their body.
You can, generally, assign a sex at birth. You cannot assign a gender (though people try).
While gender and sex have nothing to do with each other, people still expect them to be related.
Mix this with "he is too young to know" that transphobic people always say when there is a 10 year old that is trans and you have this.
In other words, this is simply a parent reacting to the "cistem" we live
Mix this with "he is too young to know" that transphobic people always say when there is a 10 year old that is trans and you have this.
In other words, this is simply a parent reacting to the "cistem" we live
Kuroi Gogeta
Member
I'm pretty surprised that the doctors were cool with this. I can't see anything other than a lot of inconveniences for that child when it comes to dealing with legal documents both domestic and international as much of the world still only recognizes binary gender.
Regardless of the parents intentions, chances are the child's gender will be determined by the youth in the school it attends(assuming the child will even be in public/private school instead of homeschooled)
Regardless of the parents intentions, chances are the child's gender will be determined by the youth in the school it attends(assuming the child will even be in public/private school instead of homeschooled)
This is pretty cool.
Sunster
Member
I agree with you. I see this as an unnecessary complication to the child throughout their life.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I don't know if this is actually helpfull for the gender question, as the parent forced the "Sex" field to be unassigned, not gender. Sex is something biological, and gender identity advocates always make sure to clearly distinct what is sex and biological questions and what are gender and social questions. You'll only confuse people and push them away from understanding things better.
This thread is an example of how this can be problematic. GAF is pretty liberal and open to gender identity issues and most of the thread is people confused or looking down on it. Even the news title itself shows confusion lol. "First baby born without a gender" is just a false statement.
This thread is an example of how this can be problematic. GAF is pretty liberal and open to gender identity issues and most of the thread is people confused or looking down on it. Even the news title itself shows confusion lol. "First baby born without a gender" is just a false statement.
excelsiorlef
Member
I mean we bloody codify biological realities into a male/fale dichotomy purely on a social basis.
Just look at the culture around body hair.
We have entire lines of cosmetic products designed solely so that women can remove the natural biological hair growth from their legs and arm pits because society has coded body hair as male
Just look at the culture around body hair.
We have entire lines of cosmetic products designed solely so that women can remove the natural biological hair growth from their legs and arm pits because society has coded body hair as male
oneils
Member
transgendered people do sometimes reassign their sex later in life (or try too). So I think the parents' point is that they will wait until the child confirms their sex and gender before assigning either. If we accept that both can be "reassigned" then I think we have to accept the parents' wishes as logical.
JimCareyGaveMeChlamydia
Banned
What are the advantages? It's not normal to have 3rd party testosterone pumped into your body while pregnant just so you can have a beard.
Changing your chemical balance while pregnant so you can have a beard and a moustache is dangerously irresponsible and careless.
Sunster
Member
If you read the article the parent and lawyer make the the point that assigning a sex at birth will inadvertently gender the child before the child can discover their gender themselves. Despite BBC seemingly ignoring or not knowing the difference, the parent and lawyer do know.
How are you taking care of your child if they want to do something, but you don't let them because it's something not typically associated with their gender? That just seems like terrible parenting to me. "Hey Dad, can I get this toy?" "No son, you can't dolls are for girls". Why not just let your kid's tastes and preferences develop more naturally?
theaffection
Member
Theres a difference between gender and sex?!?!
Always thought they were different ways to say
the same thing like kleenex and tissue
I'm not cut out for this modern society thing
Always thought they were different ways to say
the same thing like kleenex and tissue
I'm not cut out for this modern society thing
Aceofspades
Banned
I just don't understand the point of not using capital letters on the name. What is she trying to prove here?
That's weird, I thought birth certificates were supposed to just show the sex?
So a Canadian birth certificate would have something like "Male, Boy " on it? That seems pretty redundant.
Wouldn't the biological one be the only important thing when you're born? Especially to a hospital?
Caring about whether your name has capital letters is probably the weirdest thing I've ever heard of. Your name is a proper noun
So a Canadian birth certificate would have something like "Male, Boy " on it? That seems pretty redundant.
Wouldn't the biological one be the only important thing when you're born? Especially to a hospital?
Caring about whether your name has capital letters is probably the weirdest thing I've ever heard of. Your name is a proper noun
I understand that a lot of the gender roles are in the end gives to us by society, but I can't just say that sex doesn't have an influence of gender roles.
Different sexual organs produce different types of hormones, and those hormones unequivocally change your behavior. And behavior is one of the most important things in gender roles.
Monkeys, for example, they don't have a society telling them what to do and they still have different gender roles. You might say that humans are more advanced than that and that we can go completely outside what nature has dictated, but that'd be wrong.
In the end what I am saying is that a lot of our gender is due to society, we are still animals, and sex influences gender a good amount.
Edit: Also, sex is a deterministic property of an animal and you cannot just say that it's undetermined. The baby has a set of genitals and they will not change by themselves out of the blue.
Different sexual organs produce different types of hormones, and those hormones unequivocally change your behavior. And behavior is one of the most important things in gender roles.
Monkeys, for example, they don't have a society telling them what to do and they still have different gender roles. You might say that humans are more advanced than that and that we can go completely outside what nature has dictated, but that'd be wrong.
In the end what I am saying is that a lot of our gender is due to society, we are still animals, and sex influences gender a good amount.
Edit: Also, sex is a deterministic property of an animal and you cannot just say that it's undetermined. The baby has a set of genitals and they will not change by themselves out of the blue.
The more I consider it, the more I think it would prove disadvantageous to the child in the short and long terms, and if legally recognized, would impact more children in the future if their parents chose to follow suit.
excelsiorlef
Member
Almost like that's been answered more than once in this thread
velociraptor
Junior Member
What if your kid says he doesn't ever want to go to school?
What if your kid says he loves some random grown ass adult? Will you let him forge a relationship with this man?
What if your kid says he doesn't ever want to eat any food? Will you let him starve?
What if your kid says he doesn't want to go to bed (at his appointed sleep time) and instead wants to stay awake all night to play video games?
This is true. As a proper noun, your name is capitalised, regardless of whether you want it to be or not.
gutter_trash
Banned
and this is for a health card.... where health care profesionals will ask: "does it have a penis or a vagina?" for medical reasons.
It's proper to say mother.
Impeccable
Member
My point is that they were probably taking it before they were pregnant and stopping a regular dosage of a chemical at anytime can cause issues, let alone if you have a child. Framing it around "having a beard" or "have a moustache" repeatedly bashing that point home just leads me to believe there is juvenile hate behind someone being transgendered. Find it difficult to believe I am actually engaging an actual person rather than a throw away hate account.
Not sure why I am wasting my time taking bait.
They're not the same? You know why? Because you wouldn't let any kid do those things. Letting your son play with toys that other kids play with perfectly fine is not the same as letting a kid get into a relationship with a pedophile
Sunster
Member
I agree with bolded. however if more and more parents did this than laws would likely change so future babies could avoid such complications.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
This dude said 3rd party testosterone. I believe that's a first.
blue_phazon
Member
Why are you comparing things that are bad for the child (like letting them skip school) with toy/activity preference which affects no one (like wanting a truck over a doll)
It's not remotely the same
Fixed
excelsiorlef
Member
So not forcing gender roles is just like letting your kid not eat, sleep or learn...
Letting your son play with dolls is like letting your son date an adult?
How exactly would that happen? It's all left to they parents how they'll treat the child. Hardly anyone will even see the certificate. It makes no sense to me to mislabel the "sex". Even if they themselves are aware of the distinction between sex and gender, they're now promoting the opposite to the world with this news story.
The officially known "sex" of the child is undetermined.
Escape Goat
Member
The baby's sex is binary though. Why is it undecided? Her gender is being left open.
theaffection
Member
About half a century can be considered modern in the grand scope of the existence of the universe, no?
This isn't about gender roles though, is it?
Unless, if the babies starts playing with dolls that means it's a daughter in this case?
I'm all for choice and such but it that kid will have to learn a distinction between male and female from someone. They're not going to inherently know the definitions. You can be a boy and love PPG and the colour pink.
Dark Knyght
Member
The child is either male or female. Gender refers to the physiological traits of an organism, therefore the child or parent cannot choose to be one or the other. Nature chooses that.
Now whether the child chooses to psychologically identify as something else, is another story. The child can choose to do whatever it wants, dress masculine or feminine, play with so-called boys or girls toys, or choose to use one bathroom or another. But the fact remains physically the child is male or female or both and that cannot be disputed.
Now whether the child chooses to psychologically identify as something else, is another story. The child can choose to do whatever it wants, dress masculine or feminine, play with so-called boys or girls toys, or choose to use one bathroom or another. But the fact remains physically the child is male or female or both and that cannot be disputed.
JimCareyGaveMeChlamydia
Banned
Juvenile and hateful for considering the effects of what untested medication could have on an unborn child? If it's easier for you to label people hateful for having rational different opinions that's unfortunate.
cromofo
Member
If you're up for reading:
More on hormones:
http://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior
More on society:
http://www.bradley.edu/dotAsset/165918.pdf
Interesting bit: