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[jackissocool]

Seems fine to me. The child has a biological sex but that's not the same as a cultural gender. If their parent is nonbinary, I would expect a nonbinary household, and that means no assigned gender roles - only what the child chooses to take on as they mature. Being opposed to this just seems like being a needless grump.

 

[Siegcram]

About half a century can be considered modern in the grand scope of the existence of the universe, no?

Unless you're as old as the universe I don't see how that notion pertains to your inability to differentiate two words.

 

[Impeccable]

Juvenile and hateful for considering the effects of what untested medication could have on an unborn child? If it's easier for you to label people hateful for having rational different opinions that's unfortunate.

Yeah, okay. I see the game.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This isn't about gender roles though, is it?

Unless, if the babies starts playing with dolls that means it's a daughter in this case?

Huh?

Read the chain of conversation. This was a side discourse only tangently related to the main topic

 

[Sunster]

How exactly would that happen? It's all left to they parents how they'll treat the child. Hardly anyone will even see the certificate. It makes not sense to me to mislabel the "sex". Even jf they're aware of the distinction between sex and gender, they're now promoting the opposite to the world with this news story.

Well this is not my argument. It's theirs. I am just clarifying their argument for people who seem confused. I'm not going to try and speak for them when I don't know their exact reasoning but I can assume they believe people will hear about the sex of their new baby and react according to their preconceived notions of sex and gender and this will influence the child. Preschool would be a situation where this could definitely happen on a daily basis.

 

[velociraptor]

Why are you comparing things that are bad for the child (like letting them skip school) with toy/activity preference which affects no one (like wanting a truck over a doll)

It's not remotely the same

So not forcing gender roles is just like letting your kid not eat, sleep or learn...

Letting your son play with dolls is like letting your son date an adult?

My point is kids don't know anything, and they don't know what is good for them, or what is bad for them.

 

[Captain Smoker]

How are you taking care of your child if they want to do something, but you don't let them because it's something not typically associated with their gender? That just seems like terrible parenting to me. "Hey Dad, can I get this toy?" "No son, you can't dolls are for girls". Why not just let your kid's tastes and preferences develop more naturally?

Your question is a strawman, you're basically presuming what I'm going to do and what I'm not going to do.

Furthermore, the largest part of humanity is fine with their "gender", so I don't see the point to cater to potential outcomes with low likelihood which I can't influence anyway if they decide otherwise at some point where they start to think critically about the world and themselves.


Second, there are far more important things about parenting than deciding which toys they are going to play with, at least in my opinion.

 

[excelsiorlef]

My point is kids don't know anything, and they don't know what is good for them, or what is bad for them.

I mean you still compared a boy wanting to play with dolls to a boy wanting to date an adult.

 

[Sapiens]

I feel really bad for that kid.

 

[sturmdogg]

What is wrong with that parent?

Gender = male and female
Sexuality = Straight, Gay, Apache Helicopter

How hard is it to understand? Poor kid, having to suffer his/her parent's stupidity

 

[theaffection]

Unless you're as old as the universe I don't see how that notion pertains to your inability to differentiate two words.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this information is not as common knowledge as you think it is

 

[Izuna]

My point is kids don't know anything, and they don't know what is good for them, or what is bad for them.

And more that they will learn whatever they're taught.

You're gunna have a child afraid to ask online friends their gender.

 

[BigDug13]

I thought gender and sex had nothing to do with each other? 🤔 I'm having a tough time keeping up. Maybe I'm just too old for this shit.

LOL at the lawyers name 😂

Probably because people continue to try to make gender laws based on sex. How can you deny someone a bathroom right to a certain bathroom by using "sex you were born as" laws if they have no sex identification legally?

 

[mnz]

The baby's sex is binary though. Why is it undecided? Her gender is being left open.

It's right there in the article why

 

[ClosingADoor]

Seems fine to me. The child has a biological sex but that's not the same as a cultural gender. If their parent is nonbinary, I would expect a nonbinary household, and that means no assigned gender roles - only what the child chooses to take on as they mature. Being opposed to this just seems like being a needless grump.

But the parent is refusing to have the doctors log the childs biological sex even. This has nothing to do with their wish about how to raise the kid.

 

[gutter_trash]

watch this be the issue that sinks the NDP-Green coalition, LOL

 

[caliph95]

What is wrong with some people?

Gender = male and female
Sexuality = Straight, Gay, Apache Helicopter

How hard is it to understand? Poor kid

That's ....what
thread isn't about sexuality at all regardless of how you think about the parents it's about sex and gender
and the helicopter joke really

 

[Sunster]

edit: misread

 

[velociraptor]

I mean you still compared a boy wanting to play with dolls to a boy wanting to date an adult.

He equated not letting your kid play with a particular toy = terrible parenting.

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

Oh god...what is wrong with this generation.

Maybe ID should change "sex" to "genitalia", but I guess they would find a way to say they dont relate to that either.

Poor kid...

 

[black_13]

Seems stupid. So this transgender person just happens to have a baby that also cannot be identified as male or female? And that lawyers name? Yea this kid is gonna have anything but a normal life growing up.

How about you let the child have a normal childhood and then when he/she reaches adulthood then it can decide whether it wants to change his/her sexual identity.

 

[excelsiorlef]

He equated not telling your kid play with a particular toy = terrible parenting.

I mean not letting your boy play with dolls is hardly good parenting either.

 

[Izuna]

Oh god...what is wrong with this generation.

Maybe ID should change "sex" to "genitalia", but I guess they would find a way to say they dont relate to that either.

Poor kid...

They don't see sex

--

I just don't see any reason to not designate sex and teach gender issues how you want when they're older.

 

[Plum]

I can't get behind this. The article states that they put unassigned next to "sex," which, unless it avtually said gender for whatever reason, is simply wrong and only further blurs the already blurred lines between the two terms. It also gives more ammo to alt-right asswipes as they can now point to the couple not following the gender/sex divide when such arguments come up.

That's not to mention the problems the kid themselves might face in the form of bullying, embarassment and medical complications.

 

[acheron_xl]

I can't be bothered to care. If it's raised as happy, whole, self-realized human being, then yay. If it's a trophy child that's used as a pawn to prove a legal point, than boo.

 

[Keasar]

I mean, I get the why, just that the card says Sex and not Gender which then at a quick glance would be very confusing and lead to some questions about the doctor who was present at the time of birth.

What ruffles my jimmies though is the non-capital letter spelling lawyer. That is just taking the piss.

 

[Strangelove77]

Sure why not.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I can't get behind this. The article states that they put unassigned next to "sex," which, unless it avtually said gender for whatever reason, is simply wrong and only further blurs the already blurred lines between the two terms. It also gives more ammo to alt-right asswipes as they can now point to the couple not following the gender/sex divide when such arguments come up.
That's not to mention the problems the kid themselves might face in the form of bullying, embarassment and medical complications.

Trans people simply xisting gives "ammo" to the alt right.

We can debate merits here but not in the basis of what does ir doesn't "give ammo to the alt-right"

 

[Fades]

If you read the article the parent and lawyer make the the point that assigning a sex at birth will inadvertently gender the child before the child can discover their gender themselves. Despite BBC seemingly ignoring or not knowing the difference, the parent and lawyer do know.

No, I get that. Genders them in whose eyes, though? Sex is/can be necessary information for a doctor. Other than that, the child can present however they'd like. Assigning a sex does not indicate a gender as sex and gender are not linked. What's on their birth certificate doesn't matter if the parent chooses to present them as gender neutral until they decide themselves, literally.

transgendered people do sometimes reassign their sex later in life (or try too). So I think the parents' point is that they will wait until the child confirms their sex and gender before assigning either. If we accept that both can be "reassigned" then I think we have to accept the parents' wishes as logical.

I'm aware! I was speaking solely at birth, and solely in a medical sense. That wasn't meant to dismiss gender and sexual identity at all, only speaking from birth assignment specifically.

 

[Izuna]

I mean not letting your boy play with dolls is hardly good parenting either.

Refusing to let your kid play with dolls is one thing, but the kid will develop differently depending on the toys given.

It's why kids are allowed to choose their own toys. It's also why there's a problem with having dolls associated as girl toys.

 

[Escape Goat]

It's right there in the article why

Help me because I don't see it. She can say 1+1=4 but that doesn't make it so.

 

[Alienfan]

Your question is a strawman, you're basically presuming what I'm going to do and what I'm not going to do.

Furthermore, the largest part of humanity is fine with their "gender", so I don't see the point to cater to a potential outcome with low likelihood which I can't influence anyway if they decide otherwise at some point where they start to think critically about the world and themselves.


Second, there are far more important things about parenting than deciding which toys they are going to play with, at least in my opinion.

What are you even on about? I'm speaking to activity going out of your way to stop your kids from playing with toys or dressing up in ways that aren't typical for their gender. That's what my comment was about to begin with. Kids should be allowed to express themselves more widely, not feeling ashamed if they like to dress a certain way, love nail polish or love to dance. If a parents only reason for not letting their kid do something is "boys / girls don't do that!!" then they're absolutely in the wrong. I'm only using toys to illustrate my point my clearly, gender roles extend far beyond just toys like differing parenting methods for boys/girls, teaching boys to bottle up their feelings, teaching girls to be less assertive etc

 

[Izuna]

Help me because I don't see it. She can say 1+1=4 but that doesn't make it so.

The mother doesn't believe in two genders, basically.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Let's see how the kid turns out.

The choice was obviously motivated by the parent's desire to project their own ideology and issues onto their child.

However, I won't criticize the choice until we can see the results. It could end up leading to a wonderfully unique child with boundless self confidence or a totally discombobulated social pariah who questions why his/her parents can't just let him/her be "normal."

 

[Red Liquorice]

The parent gave birth to Searyl Atli in November at a friend's home in British Columbia. Kori Doty, who prefers to use the pronoun they, argues that a visual inspection at birth is unable to determine what gender that person will have or identify with later in life.

This doesn't sound to me like the baby is intersex, it sounds like the parent refuses to disclose the gender.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Refusing to let your kid play with dolls is one thing, but the kid will develop differently depending on the toys given.

It's why kids are allowed to choose their own toys. It's also why there's a problem with having dolls associated as girl toys.

Umm yeah I know.

Are you even reading the chain of conversation I'm in?

 

[Plum]

Trans people existing gives ammo to the alt right.

We can debate merits here but not in the basis of what does ir doesn't "give ammo to the alt-right"

Ammo to the alt right in getting otherwise rational people to join their cause. The gender/sex differentiation is paramount to much of the trans movement's arguments, so when something like this comes along the alt-right can point to it and paint the entire thing as hypocritical. Many people in this very thread don't like the idea and this is one of the most liberal, open-minded sites around; imagine how this might get seen elsewhere.

 

[Sunster]

No, I get that. Genders them in whose eyes, though? Sex is/can be necessary information for a doctor. Other than that, the child can present however they'd like. Assigning a sex does not indicate a gender as sex and gender are not linked. What's on their birth certificate doesn't matter if the parent chooses to present them as gender neutral until they decide themselves, literally.

The parent is concerned that society will gender the child upon learning the child's sex. This in turn would influence the child. Parent thinks having an undetermined sex will avoid this until the child is old enough to find their own gender.

 

[Apathy]

Speaking from experience, having everyone around assume your straight absolutely fucks with you growing up. You end up feeling like there's something wrong with you when theres this expectation of who you should be attracted to and you don't meet it. Kids naturally want to meet their parents expectations and impress them, it leads to a lot of gay kids pretending to be someone they're not. Simply changing your language as a parent (like how a lot of people use partner now), or having a conversation with you kid about homosexuality can make a world of difference.

But to claim that parents assuming a child us hetero during their life is worse than this is exaggerating. Sorry to what happened to you, but the vast majority of the population is heterosexual, so a parent assuming that for their child from the time they're born and can't speak until the point they can actually come to terms with their sexuality does not make those parents worse than these

 

[plagiarize]

If a bunch of people were trying to force you to use a specific bathroom based on the sex listed on your birth certificate, I think it doesn't take a genius or Deanna fucking Troi to empathise with that person's wish for their child not to have a sex listed on their birth certificate.

Seems pretty logical.

Gender identity will develop at a relatively young age, and the kid will grow up without having to make a difficult transition. Babies genders regularly get confused so I don't see the problem.

My sister didn't dress her girls in pink and the only problem that caused was growns up got confused and upset about it. She lets them pick whatever kind of toys they want. So one is into Iron Man, Star Wars and Lego friends and the other is into Paw Patrol, diggers and fairies.

The only people such things upsets is grown up cisgendered people as far as I can tell.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Ammo to the alt right in getting otherwise rational people to join their cause. The gender/sex differentiation is paramount to much of the trans movement's arguments, so when something like this comes along the alt-right can point to it and paint the entire thing as hypocritical.

I'm just not interested in making decisions based on how the alt-right is going to think.

 

[Izuna]

Umm yeah I know.

Are you even reading the chain of conversation I'm in?

I'm trying to let you know that the person you're responding to is deliberately using any obvious reference to bad parenting to illustrate that it should be a parent's responsibility to not do any potential harm to a child's upbringing.

If kids were adults with fully developed brains and the capacity to earn a college degree, sure, but many kids are stupid enough to think girls pee from their butts. Should this kid go to primary school and kick up every fuss about how they are deciding to use a different bathroom as they continue to learn the differences between boys and girls?

It's not sensible to let a child make so many decisions on their own opinion of what they are. Especially if they're taught to give no definite answer of if they're a boy or a girl.

 

[Plum]

I'm just not interested in making decisions based on how the alt-right is going to think.

Great, but this is about making decisions based on what will help the trans movement and what the alt right thinks and does is directly correlated with that.

 

[Moff]

I understand that gender is undetermined at birth, but sex as well? Is that true?
The article (and the lawyer) seem to mix up the terms. Are they synonyms now? I always thought it was important to stress that gender and sex are not the same thing.

 

[Sunster]

If a bunch of people were trying to force you to use a specific bathroom based on the sex listed on your birth certificate, I think it doesn't take a genius or Deanna fucking Troi to empathise with that person's wish for their child not to have a sex listed on their birth certificate.

Seems pretty logical.

Gender identity will develop at a relatively young age, and the kid will grow up without having to make a difficult transition. Babies genders regularly get confused so I don't see the problem.

My sister didn't dress her girls in pink and the only problem that caused was growns up got confused and upset about it. She lets them pick whatever kind of toys they want. So one is into Iron Man, Star Wars and Lego friends and the other is into Paw Patrol, diggers and fairies.

The only people such things upsets is grown up cisgendered people as far as I can tell.

And then the birth certificate could be changed. So I rescind what I said about this being a complication "throughout the child's life"

 

[Platy]

Ammo to the alt right in getting otherwise rational people to join their cause. The gender/sex differentiation is paramount to much of the trans movement's arguments, so when something like this comes along the alt-right can point to it and paint the entire thing as hypocritical. Many people in this very thread don't like the idea and this is one of the most liberal, open-minded sites around; imagine how this might get seen elsewhere.

Just because you are in favor of socialism does not mean you will stop paying your bills with actual money.

If we lived in an ideal society this would not be needed because people would KNOW that the difference between sex and gender is huge. Society does not know and act like they are the same. See bathroom laws.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm trying to let you know that the person you're responding to is deliberately using any obvious reference to bad parenting to illustrate that it should be a parent's responsibility to not do any potential harm to a child's upbringing.

If kids were adults with fully developed brains and the capacity to earn a college degree, sure, but many kids are stupid enough to think girls pee from their butts. Should this kid go to primary school and kick up every fuss about how they are deciding to use a different bathroom as they continue to learn the differences between boys and girls?

It's not sensible to let a child make so many decisions on their own opinion of what they are. Especially if they're taught to give no definite answer of if they're a boy or a girl.

The person compared letting your son play with dolls to letting your son date a pedophile.

Letting your son play with dolls does no harm.

 

[Aarglefarg]

It's hardly a world first, for government documentation of a baby's sex to essentially list "undetermined"/"unidentified" (or similar words or symbols). Many intersex people worldwide have "Indeterminate" listed as their sex.

 

[DocSeuss]

who chooses to spell their name without capital letters?

what

bell hooks

Who, it's worth noting, is someone routinely cited by people who are heavily invested in the whole gender identity thing.

 

[cromofo]

Can someone post a study that finds that sex and gender are not linked in any way?

Not being an ass, I'm genuinely interested and looking to expand on my views.