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[MjFrancis]

I've been reading Pavel Tsatsouline's book Relax into Stretch again and decided to grab a few quotes relevant to the discussion on back flexibility:

Do not abuse relaxed stretches and stay away from them altogether when it comes to your back. Soviet sports scientist L. P. Orlov warns: "While most large joints are stabilized by muscles and the ligaments do not affect their position, in the case of the spine it is the ligaments that play the important role of maintaining the normal spinal alignment. Insufficiency of the ligamentous apparatus makes it difficult to maintain the normal spinal curve with muscle tonus and tension alone. Weakening of the ligaments unavoidably leads to deformation of the spinal column."

Relaxed stretching develops flexibility without strength. This is unnatural. Normally your body does not allow a range of motion it cannot control. A graphic illustration of this is a medical condition known as the 'frozen shoulder'. If, after an injury, you do not use your shoulder for a long time, it will lose much of its range of motion. Under anesthesia though, the surgeon can turn the shoulder through three hundred sixty degrees without trouble.

When the patient wakes up and his muscles start working, the shoulder freezes again. The nervous system knows that the muscles are not strong enough to control the full range motion and will not let the shoulder's owner have it. Without proper rehab the problem keeps feeding on itself. Physical therapists know that muscles habitually kept in a shortened position lose their strength in the stretched position. Before you know it, the weakness-inflexibility vicious circle turns you into a piece of furniture!

The same situation, albeit less extreme, repeats itself with every Joe or Jane when they work out improperly—or are simply inathletic. Your muscles keep losing their strength in the lengthened position—if they ever had it to start with—because your lifestyle always keeps them shortened. Physical therapists call this problem ‘tight weakness’. As strength goes south, so does flexibility. The muscles become even shorter which makes them ever weaker which makes them even short... ad nauseam.

 

[kylej]

my hideous fat roommate who I'll never see again by the end of the week kept me up the ENTIRE night with his fat snoring and wheezing. destroyed my energy levels for chest and tris today. set a new PR on bench but I was totally gassed throughout the workout. Guess a gassed workout is better than no workout.

 

[parrotbeak]

Thanks Francis, that is another book I plan to pick up eventually. Not for a while though, have too much on my reading list already.

 

[BlueScrote]

Interesting quotes Francis. Still reading through SS and loving it. I love the writing style, it's a nice change of pace from Reference Manuals.

Tweaked my elbow yesterday doing Skullcrushers. I hope it heals enough by tomorrow to not effect dips.

 

[Srsly]

my hideous fat roommate who I'll never see again by the end of the week kept me up the ENTIRE night with his fat snoring and wheezing. destroyed my energy levels for chest and tris today. set a new PR on bench but I was totally gassed throughout the workout. Guess a gassed workout is better than no workout.

You should do him a favor and tell him to get checked out for sleep apnea. It's probably making his life miserable.

 

[reilo]

I think it's a fun tool to gauge progress, but I don't rely on those numbers too much. I don't know what kind of total you're going for, but if it's for total estimated 1RM, don't take it too seriously. Extrapolating an estimated one-rep max from anything above a five-rep max starts to become incredibly inaccurate, not to mention any possible weak spots that could make a three to five rep max doable and one-rep impossible.

Have fun with it, but keep it in perspective. You don't actually know your 1RM until you do it, and personally I never purposefully train at that intensity, especially with the heavier lifts like the squat and the deadlift. The risk/reward at those levels just aren't worth it to me. If I find a 1RM it's usually by accident (i.e my press).

Going by that calculator, it indicates that my 1RM is several pounds (10-30lbs depending on the exercise) less than what my actual 1RM is. Either I am lifting too little weight during my regular workout or this calculator is not to be held as gospel.

 

[Doodis]

Okay, I'm jumping in:

Age: 35
Height: 5'11''
Weight: 150
Goal: Build muscle/lose flab (look less terrible with my shirt off)
Current Training Schedule: 3 days lifting/3 days cardio (running)
Current Training Equipment Available: Gold's Gym
Comments: I've been running 3 days a week for the last couple years, but I just started going to the gym on the off days within the last couple months. Here's my routine:

Workout A:
Leg press
Bench press
Leg lifts
Seated row
Calf raises
Tricep push-downs
20-30 min cardio

Workout B:
Leg press
Shoulder press
Leg curls
Lat pull-downs
Dumbell curls
Ab work
20-30 min cardio

My question: are the machined weights terrible? That's all I've been using. I'm a noob when it comes to lifting, and with all the muscle-bound dudes in the back on free weights, I'd rather just stick to the machines where I can't really mess it up and don't have to be embarrassed about what I'm doing.

EDIT: forgot to mention I'm doing 3 sets of 10 reps for each exercise.

 

[MjFrancis]

Going by that calculator, it indicates that my 1RM is several pounds (10-30lbs depending on the exercise) less than what my actual 1RM is. Either I am lifting too little weight during my regular workout or this calculator is not to be held as gospel.

I don't think anyone would hold it as gospel, regardless of how much stock they put in estimated 1RM numbers. I have lifts where my 1RM is over what the calculator estimates and I have lifts that I suspect are under where they place my 1RM. It paints a very broad stoke, but it can be helpful when used correctly as a general guide.

 

[Bealost]

My question: are the machined weights terrible? That's all I've been using. I'm a noob when it comes to lifting, and with all the muscle-bound dudes in the back on free weights, I'd rather just stick to the machines where I can't really mess it up and don't have to be embarrassed about what I'm doing.

EDIT: forgot to mention I'm doing 3 sets of 10 reps for each exercise.

The general consensus is that yes, they are terrible. There's is also no need to be embarrassed. Everyone who is lifting has been there at one point or another. Most of the guys would give you a nod for trying, even more so if they see you coming back again and again. Most people who work out a lot can really appreciate effort.

The best of the guys at your gym will help you out, possibly even without you asking. As long as you aren't an ass and put some effort in you really can't go wrong by them. The worst may snicker or laugh, but there are a-holes in every crowd, and the regulars look down on them not you.

 

[balddemon]

Yeah, based on that calculator, my 1rm is 191, but I know for a fact its closer to 210-215. Yet I'm lifting 170x5x5, and that's as heavy as I can do alone.

So definitely wouldn't take it SUPER seriously, but very broadly.

So what's wrong with machines? I haven't touched one in ages, but I honestly can't see the problem with them. Does it have something to do with lack of usage of stabilizing muscles?

 

[Lamel]

Yeah, based on that calculator, my 1rm is 191, but I know for a fact its closer to 210-215. Yet I'm lifting 170x5x5, and that's as heavy as I can do alone.

So definitely wouldn't take it SUPER seriously, but very broadly.

So what's wrong with machines? I haven't touched one in ages, but I honestly can't see the problem with them. Does it have something to do with lack of usage of stabilizing muscles?

Yeah those calculators aren't exact, you need to take the measurement as caution when you try it out for yourself at the gym, and if it feels easy, go higher.

 

[Doodis]

The general consensus is that yes, they are terrible. There's is also no need to be embarrassed. Everyone who is lifting has been there at one point or another. Most of the guys would give you a nod for trying, even more so if they see you coming back again and again. Most people who work out a lot can really appreciate effort.

The best of the guys at your gym will help you out, possibly even without you asking. As long as you aren't an ass and put some effort in you really can't go wrong by them. The worst may snicker or laugh, but there are a-holes in every crowd, and the regulars look down on them not you.

So what about benching by yourself? Do you ask a random dude in the gym to spot you if you're alone? And if I switch up my exercises to substitute free weights where possible, does my routine look okay for a beginner?

 

[balddemon]

So what about benching by yourself? Do you ask a random dude in the gym to spot you if you're alone? And if I switch up my exercises to substitute free weights where possible, does my routine look okay for a beginner?

Workout A:
Squat
Bench press
(Weight-assisted) Pullups
Calf raises
Lying Overhead Triceps Extensions (someone can find the video for you if I can't)
20-30 min cardio

Workout B:
Squat
Overhead Press
(Weight-assisted) Pullups
Dumbell curls
Deadlifts
Ab work
20-30 min light cardio

Here's what I would do, based on your routine.

But you should honestly do the routine in the OP, it's by far one of the most effective.

And yeah, just ask random dudes for spots. Takes a bit of getting used to. Make sure you tell them if you need help getting the bar of the rack and how many reps you're doing.

 

[kylej]

You should do him a favor and tell him to get checked out for sleep apnea. It's probably making his life miserable.

I did, and I also told him to try the nose strips to help his breathing. He drinks 6-12 beers every night, eats grilled cheese all day, and takes the bus to class instead of walking or riding a bike. He'll be a perfect 350lb average American in no time.

edit. I wish ExRx had a dumbbell ~> barbell bench calculator. I benched 70lb dumbbells for the first time today at 155lbs after 6 months or so of working out. I'd like to know what that is in barbell but I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[ezrarh]

So what about benching by yourself? Do you ask a random dude in the gym to spot you if you're alone? And if I switch up my exercises to substitute free weights where possible, does my routine look okay for a beginner?

You can ask anybody for a spot and just about everybody will help you. I haven't had anybody say no to me when I ask. Some people might give you advice, just make sure they know what they're talking about.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

No one is going to deny you a spot, lol.

 

[Doodis]

Workout A:
Squat
Bench press
(Weight-assisted) Pullups
Calf raises
Lying Overhead Triceps Extensions (someone can find the video for you if I can't)
20-30 min cardio

Workout B:
Squat
Overhead Press
(Weight-assisted) Pullups
Dumbell curls
Deadlifts
Ab work
20-30 min light cardio

Here's what I would do, based on your routine.

But you should honestly do the routine in the OP, it's by far one of the most effective.

And yeah, just ask random dudes for spots. Takes a bit of getting used to. Make sure you tell them if you need help getting the bar of the rack and how many reps you're doing.

Thanks, I'll give the OP routine a shot.

 

[balddemon]

I did, and I also told him to try the nose strips to help his breathing. He drinks 6-12 beers every night, eats grilled cheese all day, and takes the bus to class instead of walking or riding a bike. He'll be a perfect 350lb average American in no time.

edit. I wish ExRx had a dumbbell ~> barbell bench calculator. I benched 70lb dumbbells for the first time today at 155lbs after 6 months or so of working out. I'd like to know what that is in barbell but I guess it doesn't matter.

For real, you can probably add the dumb bells together and add like 5-10 pounds. But I don't really understand the bolded part...you've been doing 155 on barbell? And just now did 70lb DBs? I bet yo ucould do 75lb DB.

No, I weigh 155lbs.

Oh okay, well multiply 1 DB by two and see where you end up. 140lbs, then see if you can do that. That's how I've done it going from BB to DB: divide by two and take off 5 pounds, then see where I'm at. Example: I'm at 170lbs BB bench now, 170/2 = 85 so I'd try 75s to be on the safe side, then bump it up to 80s if 75s are too easy. And if I can do 80s, then I'm screwed cuz that's as high as the gym goes lol.

 

[kylej]

For real, you can probably add the dumb bells together and add like 5-10 pounds. But I don't really understand the bolded part...you've been doing 155 on barbell? And just now did 70lb DBs? I bet yo ucould do 75lb DB.

No, I weigh 155lbs. And I don't go up in weight until I can do 3x8 at a certain weight. I could probably do 75 like 3 times but I'm not a big fan of low rep strength lifting. I lift for vanity

 

[IceCold]

Workout A:
Squat
Bench press
(Weight-assisted) Pullups
Calf raises
Lying Overhead Triceps Extensions (someone can find the video for you if I can't)
20-30 min cardio

Workout B:
Squat
Overhead Press
(Weight-assisted) Pullups
Dumbell curls
Deadlifts
Ab work
20-30 min light cardio

Here's what I would do, based on your routine.

But you should honestly do the routine in the OP, it's by far one of the most effective.

And yeah, just ask random dudes for spots. Takes a bit of getting used to. Make sure you tell them if you need help getting the bar of the rack and how many reps you're doing.

I don't see why you're adding ab work considering you have squats, dead lifts, overhead press, and pull ups there. You're working your abs a lot with those.

 

[Doodis]

I don't see why you're adding ab work considering you have squats, dead lifts, overhead press, and pull ups there. You're working your abs a lot with those.

I guess because I don't know any better? :/

 

[Trey]

I've been working out three times a week doing a mostly isolation routine. It is pretty rough but I've only had an hour a day to get it in. I used to have five days a week available to me, but that hasn't been the case for about two months. From next week onward, I'll have five days again. I'm faily athletic; starting from a solid base, but woefully undertrained. I've only got as far as I have by trial and error, so I want to take the next step into more focused body training, which I why I'm here.

Age: 20

Height: 6'1"

Weight: 160 lbs

Goal: ~180-200 lbs

Current Training Schedule: 3 days a week, 1 hour a day. Gonna move up to five days a week, 2-3 hours per day

Current Training Equipment Available: College gym

Comments: Budget for proper supplemental diet is modest; have little to no experience on most olympic weight lifting technique and procedures. Mostly used machines and freeweights in iso workout. Lower body is better developed/stronger than upper body. Want to increase weight gain and muscle strength for football/track.

 

[rage1973]

I've been working out three times a week doing a mostly isolation routine. It is pretty rough but I've only had an hour a day to get it in. I used to have five days a week available to me, but that hasn't been the case for about two months. From next week onward, I'll have five days again. I'm faily athletic; starting from a solid base, but woefully undertrained. I've only got as far as I have by trial and error, so I want to take the next step into more focused body training, which I why I'm here.

Age: 20

Height: 6'1"

Weight: 160 lbs

Goal: ~180-200 lbs

Current Training Schedule: 3 days a week, 1 hour a day. Gonna move up to five days a week, 2-3 hours per day

Current Training Equipment Available: College gym

Comments: Budget for proper supplemental diet is modest; have little to no experience on most olympic weight lifting technique and procedures. Mostly used machines and freeweights in iso workout. Lower body is better developed/stronger than upper body. Want to increase weight gain and muscle strength for football/track.

Go read the first post of this thread and get on Starting Strength routine.

 

[MjFrancis]

I guess because I don't know any better? :/

I like the cut of your jib, son. Take out the ab work, go with the routine supplied and take no prisoners. Try it out for eight weeks (perhaps longer) and see what happens.

Keep asking questions, and keep questioning those answers.

 

[balddemon]

I guess because I don't know any better? :/

Theres nothing wrong with doing ab work, but he's right those lifts will for sure work your abs. Deadlifts, especially if you do them right and with a belt, are one of the better 'ab' exercises I've done.

EDIT: ^^Listen to that guy. Also the energy you save from not doing abs is better spent on the compound lifts.

 

[Mr.City]

I've been working out three times a week doing a mostly isolation routine. It is pretty rough but I've only had an hour a day to get it in. I used to have five days a week available to me, but that hasn't been the case for about two months. From next week onward, I'll have five days again. I'm faily athletic; starting from a solid base, but woefully undertrained. I've only got as far as I have by trial and error, so I want to take the next step into more focused body training, which I why I'm here.

Age: 20

Height: 6'1"

Weight: 160 lbs

Goal: ~180-200 lbs

Current Training Schedule: 3 days a week, 1 hour a day. Gonna move up to five days a week, 2-3 hours per day

Current Training Equipment Available: College gym

Comments: Budget for proper supplemental diet is modest; have little to no experience on most olympic weight lifting technique and procedures. Mostly used machines and freeweights in iso workout. Lower body is better developed/stronger than upper body. Want to increase weight gain and muscle strength for football/track.

I also recommend reading the OP. What are the stats for your big lifts (squat,bench, deadlift. etc)

 

[parrotbeak]

I've been working out three times a week doing a mostly isolation routine. It is pretty rough but I've only had an hour a day to get it in.

Compound lifts will get you stronger and are a more time efficient workout. If all you can do is squat 3x5 and deadlift 1x5 that'll do way more for you than an hour of isolation machines.

Always keep this in mind when on a tight schedule, from Rippetoe's Starting Strength: if you don't have time to warm up properly, you don't have time to train at all.

 

[ezrarh]

1 hour is enough time to warm up and get your 3 main lifts in when doing starting strength. It's probably his best bet considering his schedule.

 

[parrotbeak]

1 hour is enough time to warm up and get your 3 main lifts in when doing starting strength. It's probably his best bet considering his schedule.

Ya, agree, although for someone like me who takes a long time to warm up, 1 hour would be the bare minimum.

 

[parrotbeak]

More on flexibility, for those of us with very flexible backs, this can be a problem when lifting. I need to rewatch this MWOD one a few more times. I know it has been an issue for me.

One Joint Rule

 

[Doodis]

What's considered a good warmup? I usually hit the elliptical for 5 min. and head to the weights. Again, I'm highly ignorant.

 

[fredrancour]

Hey fitness-gaf. I'm really struggling to add weight on bench and OHP. I think I've reached the point where 5 lbs a workout is too much for me. Neither my dormitory nor my school gym have 1.25 lb/ 0.5 kg plates. Where's a cheap place to get plates? I would prefer to hunt down a real world place to avoid shipping charges but have had no luck. Do I just suck it up and pay a ton for shipping off amazon?

 

[parrotbeak]

What's considered a good warmup? I usually hit the elliptical for 5 min. and head to the weights. Again, I'm highly ignorant.

The idea is to warm up your whole body but not tire yourself out, and this takes some practice to get it just right. I usually do the elliptical for 10 minutes, starting slow and varying the speed and resistance throughout. I focus on using my hip flexors and glutes, since I sit all day and these need the most attention for me.

Then I do dynamic stretches. No passive stretching -- you want the muscle groups working, not relaxing. Again for me I focus on hips, but others might focus on shoulders if that's a problem area.

For lifts, I generally do something along the lines of what's recommended for warmup by the Starting Strength calculator, although I don't actually calculate. I know what my work set (heaviest numbers) will be for that day so I know what to work up towards.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Tools_and_Downloads

 

[ezrarh]

You could try Home Depot or any hardware store for large washers that might fit onto the bar.

 

[deadbeef]

What's considered a good warmup? I usually hit the elliptical for 5 min. and head to the weights. Again, I'm highly ignorant.

I just do static stretches (*GASP*) and then warm up from just the bar up to my working weight. I may be ignorant as well.

 

[parrotbeak]

I just do static stretches (*GASP*) and then warm up from just the bar up to my working weight. I may be ignorant as well.

Up till recently I did too, but a lot of what I've read recently suggests not to. Well, I used to get warm, then do a combination of static and dynamic stretches. I'll try to look later for references if someone else doesn't before me.

But obviously what you're doing has been working for you for a long time.

 

[fredrancour]

You could try Home Depot or any hardware store for large washers that might fit onto the bar.

Oh man, I should've thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[deadbeef]

Up till recently I did too, but a lot of what I've read recently suggests not to. Well, I used to get warm, then do a combination of static and dynamic stretches. I'll try to look later for references if someone else doesn't before me.

But obviously what you're doing has been working for you for a long time.

Well I won't lie I've had my share of injuries over time but I always attribute those to poor form rather than a poor warmup.

 

[JB1981]

More on flexibility, for those of us with very flexible backs, this can be a problem when lifting. I need to rewatch this MWOD one a few more times. I know it has been an issue for me.

One Joint Rule

pretty interesting vid

 

[parrotbeak]

Just real quick from exrx:

Contrary to popular belief, stretching before a workout does not appear to decrease the occurrence of injury. The risk of injury seems to be about equal for those who stretch and those who do not stretch before exercise. The warm-up, not stretching, seems to be the important deterrent for injury, performed before an exercise bout. Stretching seems to offer more long term benefit such as maintaining functional flexibility and correcting particular muscular imbalances.

Shrier's (1999) review of the literature found three articles that suggested stretching was beneficial included a co-intervention of warm-up. One study found stretching was associated with less groin/buttock problems in cyclists, but only in women. Five studies suggesting no difference in injury rates between stretchers and non-stretchers and three suggesting stretching was detrimental. One reason stretching is thought to be ineffective in reducing the risk of injury is the fact that most muscle injuries occur when the muscle is eccentrically contracted within the normal range of motion (Shrier 1999). It seems more flexible individuals do not necessarily have less incidence of injury (Gleim 1997). In some cases those with greater flexibility may actually experience more injury, particularly if the excessive flexibility compromises joint integrity (Surberg 1983; Jones 1997). Although excessive flexibility may contribute to joint laxity, flexibility and joint integrity are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It may be possible for a joint to posses a combination of exceptional flexibility and excellent joint integrity.

The same article later says flexibility may help back injuries, which is contrary to what I'm reading in McGill, but there's no citation for that statement.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Interesting quotes Francis. Still reading through SS and loving it. I love the writing style, it's a nice change of pace from Reference Manuals.

Tweaked my elbow yesterday doing Skullcrushers. I hope it heals enough by tomorrow to not effect dips.

Don't do skullcrushers! Do these! http://vimeo.com/25983467

Also, finals are fucking over! OVER!

Back to the gym.

My question: are the machined weights terrible? That's all I've been using. I'm a noob when it comes to lifting, and with all the muscle-bound dudes in the back on free weights, I'd rather just stick to the machines where I can't really mess it up and don't have to be embarrassed about what I'm doing.

EDIT: forgot to mention I'm doing 3 sets of 10 reps for each exercise.

Machine bad, why you no bench 350, puny girly man.


Seriously though, don't mind them, they probably don't care what you do and have been in your shoes before. If you're going to hurt yourself they will probably say something. Also, don't be afraid to ask questions, but be warned. This tends to lead to the person talking to you the entire time you're there.

More on flexibility, for those of us with very flexible backs, this can be a problem when lifting. I need to rewatch this MWOD one a few more times. I know it has been an issue for me.

One Joint Rule

Maybe I'm understanding that wrong, but that seems to go against what Rippetoe preaches with squat.

 

[FallingEdge]

Don't do skullcrushers! Do these! http://vimeo.com/25983467

Wow. That was very informative. Thanks for the vid!

 

[parrotbeak]

Maybe I'm understanding that wrong, but that seems to go against what Rippetoe preaches with squat.

I'll watch again later, but in what way?

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Wow. That was very informative. Thanks for the vid!

No problem.

Also, prepare for your arms to explode in size.

I'll watch again later, but in what way?

Rippetoe wants more hip movement in the squat, which almost seems to require an exaggerated curve.

Like I said, I may be understanding it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8

Watch as he coaches that guy and look at his form. Also, watch rip's form as he squats.

He clearly does what the 1 joint rule says not to do (leading with his ass)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKEl4Wxoqc

So I'm a bit confused now.

Then there's this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OoVQPmfZ4o&feature=relmfu

 

[JB1981]

More on flexibility, for those of us with very flexible backs, this can be a problem when lifting. I need to rewatch this MWOD one a few more times. I know it has been an issue for me.

One Joint Rule

Any hip mobility drills you do that you can recommend?

 

[alejob]

So Does anyone use any supplements? I want to bulk up a little and have always been skinny. I might need some help.

How about that cellucor M5 pre workout stuff? Anything else besides protein and creatine? Just wondering is anyone had a good recommendation. Obviously don't want roids or that kind of stuff.

 

[balddemon]

So Does anyone use any supplements? I want to bulk up a little and have always been skinny. I might need some help.

How about that cellucor M5 pre workout stuff? Anything else besides protein and creatine? Just wondering is anyone had a good recommendation. Obviously don't want roids or that kind of stuff.

I take C4 before some of my workouts, really depends on how I'm feeling that day. I eat powerbars out the butthole cuz I got hookups that get them to me cheap. And I drink protein shakes. Used to take creatine, but I can't get into a regular time slot like with protein.

Jack3d is another good preworkout, but I don't know about M5.

 

[abuC]

Went 19 hours today without food, 20 hours yesterday, but today is the first day I went to the gym on an empty stomach and......it was the best workout I've had in weeks if not months. At first I struggled a bit, but I started drinking more and more water and started feeling really good towards the middle of the workout.

 

[BlueScrote]

Don't do skullcrushers! Do these! http://vimeo.com/25983467

Thanks for the video. Glad I continue to come into this thread.

 

[parrotbeak]

Any hip mobility drills you do that you can recommend?

I do some of these:

dynamic stretches

Shogun, I'll watch and compare those vids in greater detail when I get home but I guess I just took it as meaning you are using your hip joint as one focal point, rather than creating multiple ones throughout your spine, which I thought was still in line with Rippetoe, but good point. I wonder if it may be a difference between low and high bar squats as well.