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[HarryHengst]

Anyone know?

You should have gone to a doctor many months ago.

 

[catotheyounger]

Hey Fitness GAF. I'm short and skinny, 5'3" @ 115lbs. I was always the super skinny guy at high school and college. Now after weightlifting and conditioning for a year, I feel great. Since my body was a blank canvas, so to speak, I was able to see serious gains - both in mass, definition, as well as weight maxes. Current at my weight and height, my current bench max is 165. My question is this: Is it a feasible goal to try to hit 200 by the end of the year? Or is that asking too much?

 

[snoopen]

Had my first session in oly shoes.. bought these

http://www.kettlebells.com.au/store/weightlifting-shoe.html

felt pretty bloody good compared to my old joggers, hit the hamstrings a lot more on squats.. deadlifts felt a little strange, may need to adjust my technique, having my feet angled didn't allow me to pull my shoulders back as far resulting in a tiny bit of slouching when lifting.. will fix it up asap.

had a guy comment on my "great" legs when i was standing near the water cooler.. feels good

 

[Kwhit10]

Hey Fitness GAF. I'm short and skinny, 5'3" @ 115lbs. I was always the super skinny guy at high school and college. Now after weightlifting and conditioning for a year, I feel great. Since my body was a blank canvas, so to speak, I was able to see serious gains - both in mass, definition, as well as weight maxes. Current at my weight and height, my current bench max is 165. My question is this: Is it a feasible goal to try to hit 200 by the end of the year? Or is that asking too much?

I think you could totally hit 200 by the end of the year. End of the year is 9 months away. If you can increase your bench by 5lbs a month, at the least, you'd be over your goal.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

what are people's thoughts on StrongLifts vs Starting Strength?

I think SL is better if you're not an athlete. The clean is pretty easy to mess up if you don't know what you're doing. I also like the extra sets SL has for beginners because it's more practice.

If you've been lifting for a couple years and have the numbers to show for it you shouldn't be doing either.

 

[TheFatOne]

When should you move on from SS or SL?

 

[MjFrancis]

To be honest, what he said doesn't really help. I have no idea on the correct form of barbell rows and how to do them safely without ruining my back.

Obviously my goal is clear - strength and hypertrophy for my back.

edit: So is the general concensous that for the back I should do pendlay rows?

As mentioned so long as your lower back is straight you will likely be fine. For a visual aid, try this guide to the barbell bent-over row. Not to be confused with the barbell rear delt row.

I forget what edition of Starting Strength this is from but if you need a more detailed explanation than those here is Rippetoe's description of the barbell row. It may be more than you need but should you have any question about the form of a Pendlay row I'm pretty sure it's addressed here.

Barbell rows start on the floor and end on the floor, each and every rep. The bar does not hang from the arms between reps. Each rep is separated by a breath and a reset of the lower back. Starting from the floor enables the hamstrings and glutes to help get the bar moving, so that the lats and scapula retractors can finish a heavier weight than they could from a dead hang in the arms. Done this way, the exercise works not only the lats, upper back, and arms ? the muscles typically associated with rowing ? but the low back and hip extensors as well.


When rowing from the floor, the most critical factor in technique is the position of the lower back. The lumbar spine must be held in extension, just like it is in a deadlift and for exactly the same reason. A major difference between rows and deadlifts is the fact that the back angle changes as the bar comes off the floor; the knees are already extended and are not really involved much, so the hip extensors contribute to the initial pull from the floor by raising the chest through the locked back, transmitting this force to the bar. The finish occurs as the elbows bend and slam the bar into the lower ribcage area. The bar will leave the floor from a position directly below the scapulas, just like a deadlift; unlike a deadlift, the back angle will never become vertical, and in fact will not rise much higher than where it is just after the bar leaves the floor, just above horizontal at the shoulders.


Approach the bar with a deadlift stance, but don't get nearly as close. Since the bar is going to be pulled through the air to the belly and not dragged up the legs to a standing position, the feet are further away from the bar, as with the SLDL. The toes might not even be close enough to be under it, and will probably be just behind the bar as you look down. The grip can vary quite a bit, but about the same as the bench press width is perhaps the best place to start. A hook grip is useful at heavier weights, or straps can be used. Eyes should be fixed on the floor in front of your position a few feet, not looking straight down but also not attempting to look straight forward, which would place the neck in too extended a position.

From the correct stance, take the grip on the bar, take a big breath, raise it from the floor with straight elbows to get it moving, and continue it on up by bending the elbows and slamming the bar into the upper part of the belly. This movement leads with the elbows, and you should think about slamming the elbows into the ceiling. The most important part of the technique of the barbell row is the back position while the bar movement takes place: the spine must be locked into extension, with the chest up and the lower back arched the whole time the bar is moving. After the bar contacts the belly, it is dropped back to the floor, the air is exhaled and a new breath taken, and the back is reset before each rep. Don't attempt to hold it against the belly at the top or lower it slowly; the barbell row is like the deadlift in that the work is intended to be mainly concentric. Since it will be dropped, bumper plates are good to use for rowing, or use rubber mats under your standard iron plates.

This technique requires that the bar be started off the floor with a hip extension, not a knee extension. The knees will be almost straight, just unlocked, before the bar moves up, so that there is little chance the quads can be used anyway. The movement starts with the chest coming up, with straight elbows raising the back angle slightly as the bar leaves the floor, a movement performed with the hamstrings and glutes acting on the rigid back held in isometric contraction by the erectors. This initial hip extension starts the weight up, and the elbows catch the momentum and carry the bar on up with a shoulder extension and scapula retraction. The lats, triceps, biceps, forearm muscles, posterior deltoids, and smaller muscles around the shoulder blades are the prime movers here. The trunk muscles that stabilize the spine enable the trunk to act as a rigid platform against which the force can be generated. The hamstrings and glutes, after their initial action off the ground, act to anchor the pelvis - and therefore the lower back - during the final rowing motion generated by the upper body. As is so often the case in complex human movement, muscles change actions during the course of the activity, starting off with one function and ending with another, and the function of the hip extensors during the barbell row is a good example of this.

Rows are not useful at weights so heavy that form is hard to maintain. The finish position when the bar touches the belly is controlled by the some of the same factors that limit a clean, in that a weight that can be rowed correctly may only be 15 lbs. lighter than a weight that cannot be rowed at all. A row that is not finished might as well be a partial SLDL if you're not going to engage the range of motion that is unique to the exercise. For this reason, sets of five or more reps are used, since weights that can only be rowed for a triple probably cannot be done correctly anyway. Much better to get good reps with a lighter weight for sets of 5, 8, or 10 and do several across that to lose the benefit of the exercise with a weight that is too heavy.

The first few reps will only use a slight - maybe less than ten degrees - amount of hip extension, but as the set progresses and the upper body becomes fatigued more hip extension gets thrown in to get the reps finished. Be sure to continue doing rows and not deadlifts. The back should never get much above horizontal, and if the chest comes up too high on the last reps, the bar is hitting too low, the range of motion for the target muscles has shortened, and the weight is too heavy.

As the weight gets heavy, there will be a pronounced tendency to allow the chest to drop down to meet the bar, completing the rep from the top down instead of from the bottom up. When this becomes excessive, the weight is too heavy. And excessive is a rather subjective concept here. It might be decided that no chest drop is allowable, in which case heavy weights cannot be used in the exercise. Or it might be decided that as long as the chest can be touched with the bar, the rep counts. This degree of variability is one of the things that distinguish an assistance exercise from a primary exercise: if a large degree of variability is inherent in the performance of an exercise, it cannot be judged effectively or quantified objectively. For this reason, the barbell row makes a very good ancillary exercise but a very poor contest lift.

 

[Tess3ract]

Wondering if anyone has had four wisdom teeth removed before, and how long it took them to get back into lifting weights?

I have, but I wasn't lifting weights. I didn't want to do shit for like 2 weeks

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

When should you move on from SS or SL?

It'll be different for everybody, given that you are eating and resting right. Some people may be able to move onto a more advanced program when they are squatting 250lbs and some people may be able to stay on a beginner program until they squat 375. This really will be determined by what your goals are and how dedicated you have been to your training and advancing.

 

[HarryHengst]

When should you move on from SS or SL?

If you have to ask, you shouldnt move on just yet.

 

[MjFrancis]

When should you move on from SS or SL?

When you reach your third legitimate stall in the program. Stalling is described here in the Starting Strength wiki:

Stalling, Resetting and Progressing

Are you stalling because:

1. You aren't doing what you are supposed to be doing for recovery. This includes dietary considerations (enough protein/carbs/fats? Enough vitamins? Enough water? Skipping meals or eating every 2-4 hours?) as well as rest considerations (go to sleep at 10 PM or 1 AM with an 8 AM class that morning?)
2. You aren't adding weight properly. Yes, I'm talking to you greedy bastards who decide that you can jump 10 lbs between bench workouts, or you decide to add a 25 to each side of the bar for your next squat workout.
3. You have recently added exercises (such as dips/chins/arm work) or made your own adjustments to the program in whatever manner.
4. You are doing everything right WRT rest, recovery and weight progression, but you are simply advancing closer to your genetic limitations.

1 is easy to fix. Get your ass to sleep on time, eat properly. Don't change anything about your training for at least a week until you have made 100% sure that you got your 8 hours of sleep, and that you ate your necessary calories EVERYDAY, didn't skip meals, got proper protein/carbs/fats during the day and at crucial times (especially post-workout, breakfast, and before bed). You screwed yourself on this one, but this one is easy to fix. Fix it and progress as normal until #4 describes you.

2 is easy to fix as well. Drop 5 lbs on your presses and rows (and cleans, drop 10 lbs on your squat and deadlift, and start back up. This time, however, be sure to only add 5 for presses/rows/cleans, and add 10 for squats and deadlifts. This will USUALLY fix the issue, depending upon how rapidly you added the weight. A problem exists when you were adding weight to exercises that you had no business adding weight to. We'll get to you folks in a moment, because you may have induced overtraining (systemic overtraining, not "biceps overtraining" or "pectoral overtraining", both of which are misnomers)

3 is usually pretty easy to fix as well. Stop EVERYTHING, strip back to the basic 3 exercises for the day, add a set or three of abdominal work, and THAT IS IT. Make sure you have #1 above in line, and train for a few weeks with only the basic 3 and the ab work. You greedy bastards were CONVINCED that 10 sets of barbell curls and triceps pressdowns wouldn't hurt, and instead of the big gunz and the bicep peak, you got your asses buried! Good for you. Listen next time ya damn teenage know-it-all! (Yes, I was a teenage know-it-all.) (Hell, I'm a middle-aged know-it-all...nothing's changed, I'm just older and fatter!)

4 is a "true stall". In other words, you are a coach's dream because you listened, did exactly what you were told, put forth full effort and intensity, you took your training (and especially your recovery/rest/nutrition) seriously, and yet you still hit the inevitable wall. See the questions regarding stalling and resetting. That's right, a legitimate stall is a hallmark of progress. Ironic, no?

If you miss three reps of a single exercise in a training day in Starting Strength, resetting is probably a good idea. If this is done three times, you may want to consider a change in programs. Exceptions are made especially for someone whose deadlift and squat are still improving. Reset your presses more often if either of those movements are still advancing in weight. Hope this helps.

 

[gdt]

I have to be able to do at least 30 consecutive situps (real situps, touch elbows to legs) by May 14th. I finally tried to do some earlier in my living room and I had to stop at 6 because of the wooden floor killing my tailbone. Should I get a mat or a pillow or something, but I want to know that it won't impede or help my progress.

Do I just tough it out?

 

[ShaneB]

I think you could totally hit 200 by the end of the year. End of the year is 9 months away. If you can increase your bench by 5lbs a month, at the least, you'd be over your goal.

You've made a lightbulb go off in my head and made me realize what the hell I'm doing in terms of progression.

I've been pretty aimless lately in the gym in terms of progress, not really taking into account where I should be, but the simple idea of adding a little weight per month, instead of varying weights per set and having my reps be all over the place, just seems wonky. Or maybe I'm talking nonsense.

I also started squating barefoot again, realizing it ahd been a long time since I did that, and feels like I've missed out a lot of progress, just feels so much better.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

I have to be able to do at least 30 consecutive situps (real situps, touch elbows to legs) by May 14th. I finally tried to do some earlier in my living room and I had to stop at 6 because of the wooden floor killing my tailbone. Should I get a mat or a pillow or something, but I want to know that it won't impede or help my progress.

Do I just tough it out?

You doing a police exam?

Also yeah do it on something soft.

 

[IceCold]

You should have gone to a doctor many months ago.

Fuck. I'll go tomorrow.

 

[gdt]

You doing a police exam?

Also yeah do it on something soft.

Yep. I'm working pretty hard to hit and/or exceed the basic requirements, and doing it on a schedule. Agility (physical) tests are from May 14-19th, just haven't gotten my day yet.

Edit: Might as well

Basic requirements on the left, where I'm at now in parenthesis.

Vertical Jump: 15.5 inches (14inches)

Sit-ups: 30 in minute (talked about them above)

300 Meter Run: 66 seconds (haven't measured this yet)

Push-ups: 25 in a minute (not quite sure, but definitely past 25, I've been doing this program on my non-workout days to push it further)

1.5 Mile Run: in 15:54 (I'm at 17:59, but I know I can bull through a bit faster at the moment). Hopefully this gets easier as I lose more weight and etc.

This stuff plus some obstacle course that my cop buddies are telling me about.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I'm sure PT during the actual academy will be even tougher. Better get yourself in better shape. I just don't know how people are not able to pass the FT during their application process. I read from someone on another board how he applied for a special agent position with the FDLE, and he couldn't do 18 push ups. SMH.

I'm going through the application process for DUSM and ATF SA. DUSM recruits run 10 miles in the awful heat in Georgia. Sounds fun if you ask me.

 

[kylej]

I think BBB is working... tore a bunch of stitches in both arms of three different jackets this past week while bending down to tie my shoes lol

 

[Petrie]

I think BBB is working... tore a bunch of stitches in both arms of three different jackets this past week while bending down to tie my shoes lol

I keep hearing such awesomeness about this program, I can't wait to move on and be able to try it out.

 

[kylej]

I keep hearing such awesomeness about this program, I can't wait to move on and be able to try it out.

It's fun but BBB is savage. On your 5th set of 10 you will see God.

Winter storms may suck ass but at least it keeps the bros out!

 

[balddemon]

I keep hearing such awesomeness about this program, I can't wait to move on and be able to try it out.

Just drop the weights so you can say you stalled

 

[Cheeto]

I basically did a body building routine today, I kinda feel dirty.

 

[Mully]

Holy crap. I just slept for 16 hours straight. I need to find a new job. It keeps me up all night and when I finally get a night off I fall asleep well before 11PM and wake up after 3PM on my off day.

I can already tell this is going to be a bad chest day.

 

[Bearded Dudebro]

I'm new to this thread, what's BBB

I think BBB is working... tore a bunch of stitches in both arms of three different jackets this past week while bending down to tie my shoes lol

 

[kylej]

I'm new to this thread, what's BBB

BBB = Boring but Big. It's an 'accessory' lifting scheme attached to Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 program. You do 5 sets of 10 reps of your main lift after your working sets at 50% 1RM.

good overview of 5-3-1 http://theswole.com/concept/531-jim-wendlers-theory-of-strength/

or BBB from the man himself

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge

It's something to think about after you've dried up your newbie gains, although you don't have to be absolutely 100% tapped out on Starting Strength or SL or whatever. I switched to 5-3-1 after 9 months or so of straight set lifting just because I needed a change mentally.

in other news I'm pretty sure the post office lost my copy of 5-3-1. Shipped out Feb 15th via Priority Mail and it's still not here

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Yep. I'm working pretty hard to hit and/or exceed the basic requirements, and doing it on a schedule. Agility (physical) tests are from May 14-19th, just haven't gotten my day yet.

Edit: Might as well

Basic requirements on the left, where I'm at now in parenthesis.

Vertical Jump: 15.5 inches (14inches)

Sit-ups: 30 in minute (talked about them above)

300 Meter Run: 66 seconds (haven't measured this yet)

Push-ups: 25 in a minute (not quite sure, but definitely past 25, I've been doing this program on my non-workout days to push it further)

1.5 Mile Run: in 15:54 (I'm at 17:59, but I know I can bull through a bit faster at the moment). Hopefully this gets easier as I lose more weight and etc.

This stuff plus some obstacle course that my cop buddies are telling me about.

Yeah, I figured as much. Be sure to train above and beyond what is required, and if you do get selected keep improving since academy PT is going to be more demanding.

I'm just glad I already did Army Infantry basic training at Ft. Benning Georgia in the dead of summer (May-September). After that, anything else would be a cake walk "basic training" wise, especially in regard to law enforcement (or even FBI) training.

 

[Petrie]

Who managed 315 3x5 on squats today? This guy. Felt awesome. So pumped right now.

 

[SeanR1221]

Awesome! I'm getting shakey at 210 so I'm nervous I'll hit a wall sooner than I think, but I'm staying positive even if I have to deload.

 

[Lasthope106]

Who managed 315 3x5 on squats today? This guy. Felt awesome. So pumped right now.

Congrats Bro!

Spoiler

I just like saying Bro at anyone who goes to the gym

I'm a few months away from reaching that weight.

 

[abuC]

Well, Im going to lose weight now, feel I have a good base and am going to drop atleast 30lbs by June/July.

 

[ShaneB]

Who managed 315 3x5 on squats today? This guy. Felt awesome. So pumped right now.

Grats man, that is terrific.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

I basically did a body building routine today, I kinda feel dirty.

So a body building routine is now looked down in this thread?

SMH

 

[Izick]

Okay, so I did the second day of the new routine I'm thinking of doing, and it was legs and shoulder day.

This was obviously a lot easier to adjust to, since they have no correlation, and everything went well I feel.

My main question is: What muscle group should I be doing first though on these days? Should it be the primary first (chest, back, legs) and then secondary (triceps, biceps, shoulders)? I'm doing 3 sets for each muscle, so should I mix up the sets (example: back, biceps, back, biceps, back, biceps), or just do each muscle group's full workout, then on to the next one (example: back, back, back, biceps, biceps, biceps)?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Petrie]

So a body building routine is now looked down in this thread?

SMH

Its a fitness thread, and bodybuilding isn't really the best way to get healthy and fit, so it makes sense.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

So a body building routine is now looked down in this thread?

SMH

most people looking for a body building routine are benching 135, can't squat their body weight, and don't deadlift.

SMH

Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weights.

 

[Petrie]

most people looking for a body building routine are benching 135, can't squat their body weight, and don't deadlift.

SMH

Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weights.

Exactly. You have to get yourself a good base to work with, which in and of itself can take years.

 

[muntersaur]

double post

 

[muntersaur]

Its a fitness thread, and bodybuilding isn't really the best way to get healthy and fit, so it makes sense.

It may not be the best way to get healthy and fit (but then again so may not be powerlifting). It is perfectly possible to be a bodybuilder and stay healthy and fit.

most people looking for a body building routine are benching 135, can't squat their body weight, and don't deadlift.

This is absolute bullshit. If one is a bodybuilder the three power lifts are not necessary because their goal is hypertrophy rather than strength and there are many different ways to accomplish this goal. However, as opposed to the dogma in this thread, most bodybuilders will be using these three power lifts because they know it elicits a lot of growth hormone. Get off your high horse.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Exactly. You have to get yourself a good base to work with, which in and of itself can take years.

Mecha is not the type of person you're talking about, and I think you're missing the point of Mecha's disdain. A body building routine is not a bad thing, at all, nor should it be looked down on, what so ever. The issue YOU are pointing out is an issue of the person, not the routine.

In regards to Mecha's original post, he's referencing the "I feel dirty" portion of the post that is talking about a body building routine.

If you look at it from that regard, he has every right to think and post what he did. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a body building routine, and some could make a good argument that a body building routine in the right hands is the pinnacle of what we are looking to do here. This is a "fitness" thread afterall.

That said, I'm definitely not the body builder type, but Mecha is right to be perturbed at the negative stigma anything but a straight up strength routine gets in here. It's complete horse shit.

 

[Petrie]

Mecha is not the type of person you're talking about, and I think you're missing the point of Mecha's disdain. A body building routine is not a bad thing, at all, nor should it be looked down on, what so ever. The issue YOU are pointing out is an issue of the person, not the routine.

In regards to Mecha's original post, he's referencing the "I feel dirty" portion of the post that is talking about a body building routine.

If you look at it from that regard, he has every right to think and post what he did. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a body building routine, and some could make a good argument that a body building routine in the right hands is the pinnacle of what we are looking to do here. This is a "fitness" thread afterall.

That said, I'm definitely not the body builder type, but Mecha is right to be perturbed at the negative stigma anything but a straight up strength routine gets in here.

I definitely see your point, id just hate to see a bunch of newcomers show up here and think that's the way to start out, that's all.

Totally see his point though.

Hell, im in the process of building a base because I want to get that eventual body, strength is definitely not my primary goal.

 

[Izick]

Anybody?

 

[Diatribe1974]

The lower reps will allow you to lift heavier weight thus increasing your strength. The higher reps will build your endurance and possiblly add more size but less strength.

I'd always been under the impression that:

Lower Weight + High Reps = Strength & Endurance

vs.

High Weight + Low Reps = Size

But from what I've been able to garner so far, that lower weight + lower reps = strength?

Am asking now, so I don't get 4 months into this and find myself asking "Hey, were the fuck are my results?"

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

I'd always been under the impression that:

Lower Weight + High Reps = Strength & Endurance

vs.

High Weight + Low Reps = Size

But from what I've been able to garner so far, that lower weight + lower reps = strength?

Am asking now, so I don't get 4 months into this and find myself asking "Hey, were the fuck are my results?"

This has been said over and over, and it's in the op. (It's also exactly what cooter said in the quote you are referencing)

Low rep + High weight = strength

High Rep + Low Weight = Hypertrophy (endurance/size)

 

[Izick]

This has been said over and over, and it's in the op. (It's also exactly what cooter said in the quote you are referencing)

Low rep + High weight = strength

High Rep + Low Weight = Hypertrophy (endurance/size)

What exactly qualifies as low rep, 5 or less? Also, what about high weight and high reps?

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

What exactly qualifies as low rep, 5 or less? Also, what about high weight and high reps?

From the OP.

 

[FallingEdge]

What exactly qualifies as low rep, 5 or less? Also, what about high weight and high reps?

In the OP

And if you are doing high weights and high reps, the weights aren't heavy enough.

 

[Diatribe1974]

This has been said over and over, and it's in the op. (It's also exactly what cooter said in the quote you are referencing)

Low rep + High weight = strength

High Rep + Low Weight = Hypertrophy (endurance/size)

Thanks for the correction. Am only 4 days into my training so it's best to ask the seemingly ignorant questions now (and yes, I did read a bunch of the OP, but still had tons of questions) than get months into things and wonder WTF I was doing wrong.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Thanks for the correction. Am only 4 days into my training so it's best to ask the seemingly ignorant questions now (and yes, I did read a bunch of the OP, but still had tons of questions) than get months into things and wonder WTF I was doing wrong.

Nothing wrong with seeking clarification.

Sorry if I came off abrasive, I just get irritated when it seems like people aren't reading the op, but it's totally understandable if you read it, but don't "get it." It's not exactly "layman" friendly.

 

[Izick]

So the sweet spot for size is around 8ish?

 

[kehs]

I'd always been under the impression that:

Lower Weight + High Reps = Strength & Endurance

vs.

High Weight + Low Reps = Size

But from what I've been able to garner so far, that lower weight + lower reps = strength?

Am asking now, so I don't get 4 months into this and find myself asking "Hey, were the fuck are my results?"

Size has a direct relationship with strength.