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[Diatribe1974]

Nothing wrong with seeking clarification.

Sorry if I came off abrasive, I just get irritated when it seems like people aren't reading the op, but it's totally understandable if you read it, but don't "get it." It's not exactly "layman" friendly.

Now I'll go back and re-read the OP here in a minute, but how important is a cardio "warm up" for things? For example, is there any real beneficial gains from hitting the treadmills/stair steppers/ect before I work out?

 

[Kwhit10]

Now I'll go back and re-read the OP here in a minute, but how important is a cardio "warm up" for things? For example, is there any real beneficial gains from hitting the treadmills/stair steppers/ect before I work out?

I would say only for a very short period of time just to warm up. Otherwise you're going to tire out your muscles before even lifting any weights which will hinder how much you can lift overall and lower your gains. If you want to do cardio it's best to do it at the end of the workout.

 

[parrotbeak]

So the sweet spot for size is around 8ish?

I think a better and more popular way is to mix them. But build a strength foundation first. Doing 3x8 of soup cans isn't going to do anything except put bubbles in your soup.

Wikipedia has a good summary of muscle hypertrophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_hypertrophy

In the bodybuilding and fitness community and even in some academic books skeletal muscle hypertrophy is described as being in one of two types: Sarcoplasmic or myofibrillar. According to this theory, during sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength, whereas during myofibrillar hypertrophy, actin and myosin contractile proteins increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is characteristic of the muscles of certain bodybuilders while myofibrillar hypertrophy is characteristic of Olympic weightlifters.[15] These two forms of adaptations rarely occur completely independently of one another, one can experience a large increase in fluid with a slight increase in proteins, a large increase in proteins with a small increase in fluid, or a relatively balanced combination of the two. In contrast to this theory it should be noted that when viewed in microscope, muscles are filled entirely by myofibrils, whether or not the muscles from bodybuilders or powerlifters are used. Also, very little actual evidence actually supports that the non-myofibrillar part of the sarcoplasm ever expands. Antagonists to this theory suggest that the cause of this popular notion is twofold: First, it is derived from fractioning of muscle used when measuring protein synthesis. This is a technique in which muscle proteins are separated biochemically into myofibrillar, sarcoplasmic, membrane and mitochondrial fractions for protein synthesis. This separation is poorly validated and also, the results of this fractionation and the usual following stable isotope protein synthesis measurement does not tell anything about the relative abundance of these protein fractions (as changes in protein synthesis are by definition relative (i.e. a change of 50% in a substance that constitutes 1% of the muscle is still insignificant in a physiological context). Secondly, the sarcoplasmic/myofibrillar proponents use their theory to explain why bodybuilders have less relative strength than strength athletes. But this theory is not necessary to explain these differences. The physiological changes associated with training with very high volume and degrees of muscle fatigue produce neuromuscular adaptations that are different from those experienced by strength training with very high mechanical loads and less muscle fatigue.

That last bit is important. If you don't train to do something, don't expect to be able to do it. Training is not just about building muscle, it's about learning to perform a physical task.

 

[Izick]

I think a better and more popular way is to mix them. But build a strength foundation first. Doing 3x8 of soup cans isn't going to do anything except put bubbles in your soup.

Well, I already have a solid base.

I mean I can curl 55 dumbells with pristine form just as an example of how far I've come, so it's not like this is baby's first workout.

I've already been doing 3x8 for a while though, so it's good to know I'm on the right track.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

It may not be the best way to get healthy and fit (but then again so may not be powerlifting). It is perfectly possible to be a bodybuilder and stay healthy and fit.



This is absolute bullshit. If one is a bodybuilder the three power lifts are not necessary because their goal is hypertrophy rather than strength and there are many different ways to accomplish this goal. However, as opposed to the dogma in this thread, most bodybuilders will be using these three power lifts because they know it elicits a lot of growth hormone. Get off your high horse.

High horse? Haha, I've always said I prefer looking good over being strong. What I described IS what you see from a majority of people looking for bodybuilding routines with 10 different curls while not being strong.

If you're not strong, you won't be a good bodybuilder.

 

[Painraze]

I don't have time/cash to go to a gym at the moment but is there a good set of workouts I can do at home using pushups and whatnot? I also have a bar for the door (for pullups which i can't do) if that makes a difference.

 

[Izick]

I don't have time/cash to go to a gym at the moment but is there a good set of workouts I can do at home using pushups and whatnot? I also have a bar for the door (for pullups which i can't do) if that makes a difference.

There are many variations of the push up, same with pull ups, same with stomach crunches or other ab exercises.

Something is always better than nothing.

 

[SeanR1221]

I don't have time/cash to go to a gym at the moment but is there a good set of workouts I can do at home using pushups and whatnot? I also have a bar for the door (for pullups which i can't do) if that makes a difference.

Cash I can understand, but why don't you have time?

 

[Izick]

Cash I can understand, but why don't you have time?

I'm guessing he means that the gym is farther away then he'd like. Why would he ask about home workouts if he didn't have time to workout at all? That's my guess at least.

 

[Painraze]

Cash I can understand, but why don't you have time?

Sorry, it's much easier for me to come home after work and really bust out a workout rather than drive a long way to a gym. That's what I ment by "time."

I was just wondering if there are any good routines (even somewhere hidden in this thread) that can help me strength train / get in shape using pushups, situps, doorbar, etc. Obviously I can just start doing 50-60 pushups a night but I'm wondering if there is anything more than that involved.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Its a fitness thread, and bodybuilding isn't really the best way to get healthy and fit, so it makes sense.

I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about to be honest. WHat do you think body building is exactly? Do you think the lifts done on certain PL routines aren't down in powerlifting? I am struggling to see how you can't call bodybulding being "fit".

People are talking about drinking gallons of milk, etc, but how many people have talked in here about getting your cardio up to speed? Oh wait, but this is a FITNESS thread, of course!

most people looking for a body building routine are benching 135, can't squat their body weight, and don't deadlift.

SMH

Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weights.

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, especially that you quoted someone who has very credible PL numbers, PEDs or not

Exactly. You have to get yourself a good base to work with, which in and of itself can take years.

Again this is BS. Body builders don't start with completely different exercises than PLs. They don't disregard the big three lifts. Where are you getting this "info" from?

Mecha is not the type of person you're talking about, and I think you're missing the point of Mecha's disdain. A body building routine is not a bad thing, at all, nor should it be looked down on, what so ever. The issue YOU are pointing out is an issue of the person, not the routine.

In regards to Mecha's original post, he's referencing the "I feel dirty" portion of the post that is talking about a body building routine.

If you look at it from that regard, he has every right to think and post what he did. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a body building routine, and some could make a good argument that a body building routine in the right hands is the pinnacle of what we are looking to do here. This is a "fitness" thread afterall.

That said, I'm definitely not the body builder type, but Mecha is right to be perturbed at the negative stigma anything but a straight up strength routine gets in here. It's complete horse shit.

Exactly.

Man I like this thread, and what everyone has to offer, but your sacred Mr Rippletoe, or whatever program/person is not always the be all and end all. (obviously not aimed at you Alien, I mean "your" as a general statement)

 

[FallingEdge]

Isolation exercises and general BB routines have a time and place for them. As mentioned, there is nothing wrong at all going this route. However, many people jump right into these workouts without have a reason or knowing what they are doing. There is a reason why SL/SS/3x5 workouts are recommended. It is simple and straightfoward and will help you build a base to grow upon.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Isolation exercises and general BB routines have a time and place for them. As mentioned, there is nothing wrong at all going this route. However, many people jump right into these workouts without have a reason or knowing what they are doing. There is a reason why SL/SS/3x5 workouts are recommended. It is simple and straightfoward and will help you build a base to grow upon.

Jeez.

There are tonnes of BB routines that dont even involve isolation techniques, so please don't try and lump them all in the same group

 

[FallingEdge]

Jeez.

There are tonnes of BB routines that dont even involve isolation techniques, so please don't try and lump them all in the same group

This thread gives out a lot of flack for doing isolation based routines as well. I'm just saying that both BB and isolation have their place in the lifting world and shouldn't be shunned.

 

[abuC]

Isolation exercises and general BB routines have a time and place for them. As mentioned, there is nothing wrong at all going this route. However, many people jump right into these workouts without have a reason or knowing what they are doing. There is a reason why SL/SS/3x5 workouts are recommended. It is simple and straightfoward and will help you build a base to grow upon.

Honestly, I'd go with a BB routine long before I'd go with SL/SS to start out with. There's no doubt in my mind had I used either one of those programs at the start I wouldn't have progressed as quickly as I did.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

This thread gives out a lot of flack for doing isolation based routines as well. I'm just saying that both BB and isolation have their place in the lifting world and shouldn't be shunned.

OK fair enough

I'm just saying that the perceived notion of doing a BB routine shouldn't be negative.

ANyways, it's late and time for bed

 

[Trey]

What is PL? Power lifting?

 

[ezrarh]

OK fair enough

I'm just saying that the perceived notion of doing a BB routine shouldn't be negative.

ANyways, it's late and time for bed

I understand your point and kinda agree. However, there's a lot of different BB routines and I think for many people, the initial impression people think of BB routines are many isolation curls and cables without any compound exercises. This is in addition to the image of a beginner trying to emulate well known bodybuilders to get the same build. That's where the negative stigma comes from. However, as said earlier, some BB routines can include compound exercises and whatnot so you can't automatically make assumptions on its effectiveness.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Ok guys who take creatine (and have for a long time).

I was taking those pills before from GNC, but I'm not sure those weren't complete bullshit.

I've started regular creatine and I've heard the "loading" stuff is BS. Is that true? How/when should I take it? I'm not asking about before/after work out. I'm asking if I should take it on my off days too? 5g only? Loading? etc.

Edit: Nevermind, got my answers from a pretty legit seeming guy.

 

[Petrie]

Im merely saying Mecha, that for your average Joe coming in here with no experience, a BB routine is not the right thing for them, for general fitness. It also is not going to give the best results for your time for a beginner. SS 3 days a week for 1 hour or so is a much more efficient use of a beginners time.

 

[Timedog]

The other day I moved from 215 to 225 on my squats and fucking DIED (well, the workout before I did 225 for one set, then decided it was a little too much, and did 215 for the last two). I couldn't finish my workout cause I was about to puke and taking 10 minutes in between sets. I'm guessing it was either being dehydrated or eating too much beforehand.

 

[SeanR1221]

Why didn't you go up 5 pounds?

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

The other day I moved from 215 to 225 on my squats and fucking DIED (well, the workout before I did 225 for one set, then decided it was a little too much, and did 215 for the last two). I couldn't finish my workout cause I was about to puke and taking 10 minutes in between sets. I'm guessing it was either being dehydrated or eating too much beforehand.

Try 220 instead of 225 next time, or try 215 again and be sure you're where you were before you bumped up. How many sets/reps are you doing?

Dehydration could definitely be a culprit of "weakness" and if you eat prior to lifting (like 30 min or less prior) that's generally a bad thing from my experience too.

OT: Welcome back, I may not get along with you much here, but your banning was for a good cause. You earned some respect points in my book, even if it may have been just to earn more points with Devo.

 

[Mr.City]

It's about time we had another Rippetoe rage out. Listen, fellas, you want to get stronger, faster, better, and then we debate the ways that work really, really well, and then everyone says its dogma. Lifting weights in a linear progresion works bette than most BB splits, lots of long slow cardio is only good for burning off calories, fat dudes aren't taking the steps needed in their diet to lose weight, skinny dudes aren't eating enough, no one knows how to program their conditioning, and body weight exercises are better than nothing.

 

[Petrie]

It's about time we had another Rippetoe rage out. Listen, fellas, you want to get stronger, faster, better, and then we debate the ways that work really, really well, and then everyone says its dogma. Lifting weights in a linear progresion works bette than most BB splits, lots of long slow cardio is only good for burning off calories, fat dudes aren't taking the steps needed in their diet to lose weight, skinny dudes aren't eating enough, no one knows how to program their conditioning, and body weight exercises are better than nothing.

Pretty much this.

 

[snoopen]

I mean I can curl 55 dumbells with pristine form

Omfg... Lol.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

High horse? Haha, I've always said I prefer looking good over being strong.

You can be both. Although I prefer the former, pound for pound, I'm still just as strong, or even stronger than guys relative to their height/weight. I mean, hell, I'm 6'1 and probably weigh somewhere between 160-165, and last week I put up the 100s for 4 reps doing incline chest press. I can keep up with those guys who weigh 200 pounds.

Anyway, I'm thinking about not using whey protein powder anymore. Wanna go all clean and healthy with all the shit put inside those products.

 

[Petrie]

Omfg... Lol.

I tried to ignore this. It was hard.

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Ok guys who take creatine (and have for a long time).

I've started regular creatine and I've heard the "loading" stuff is BS. Is that true? How/when should I take it? I'm not asking about before/after work out. I'm asking if I should take it on my off days too? 5g only? Loading? etc..

You only need to load creatine monohydrate.

 

[Timedog]

Try 220 instead of 225 next time, or try 215 again and be sure you're where you were before you bumped up. How many sets/reps are you doing?

Dehydration could definitely be a culprit of "weakness" and if you eat prior to lifting (like 30 min or less prior) that's generally a bad thing from my experience too.

OT: Welcome back, I may not get along with you much here, but your banning was for a good cause. You earned some respect points in my book, even if it may have been just to earn more points with Devo.

It's not that I couldn't do the weight, on my 3rd and final set I did 7 reps instead of 5, I just felt like I was gonna ralph after every set, and it fucked up the rest of my exercises too to the point where I just had to leave the gym. 20 minutes later after the bus ride home I felt fine and probably could have done the rest of my sets. I'm just trying to figure out why I felt so sick this time with only a marginal weight increase.

The workout before this I did 225 on my first set and of course I was tired afterwards, and decided it was a tad too much for 3 sets and dropped weight a little, but I didn't feel like I was going to puke my guts out. This time I felt like I was going to puke from the very first set. I was dehydrated and I ate a bunch of pizza beforehand (it was like 2 hours before, but it was a lot of pizza) so I'm thinking it was one or a combination of those.

I don't think I need to earn any extra points with Devo

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

It's not that I couldn't do the weight, on my 3rd and final set I did 7 reps instead of 5, I just felt like I was gonna ralph after every set, and it fucked up the rest of my exercises too to the point where I just had to leave the gym. 20 minutes later after the bus ride home I felt fine and probably could have done the rest of my sets. I'm just trying to figure out why I felt so sick this time with only a marginal weight increase.

The workout before this I did 225 on my first set and of course I was tired afterwards, and decided it was a tad too much for 3 sets and dropped weight a little, but I didn't feel like I was going to puke my guts out. This time I felt like I was going to puke from the very first set. I was dehydrated and I ate a bunch of pizza beforehand (it was like 2 hours before, but it was a lot of pizza) so I'm thinking it was one or a combination of those.

I don't think I need to earn any extra points with Devo

Yeah, in that case I would just go in next time with the same weight just with better planning.

And I'm sure you don't, that part was just a joke.

 

[parrotbeak]

I'm thinking about not using whey protein powder anymore. Wanna go all clean and healthy with all the shit put inside those products.

Considering the horror videos that have surfaced about our current food industry, I've sometimes wondered about whey manufacturing. I mean meat at least needs to be presentable in the final product. With whey, you can't tell what's in it or what it went through to get to that stage.

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Considering the horror videos that have surfaced about our current food industry, I've sometimes wondered about whey manufacturing. I mean meat at least needs to be presentable in the final product. With whey, you can't tell what's in it or what it went through to get to that stage.

I switched from protein powder to milk and found no difference in my recovery. I'm also blessed to live in a country where you can buy red meat with zero percent fat.

 

[Timedog]

Other than how quickly it is absorbed, what even makes whey better than other proteins? I've been taking it after workouts, or if I'm craving something that "tastes good", but other than that I've just been drinking whole milk (which of course has whey protein in it, but not exclusively).

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Other than how quickly it is absorbed, what even makes whey better than other proteins? I've been taking it after workouts, or if I'm craving something that "tastes good", but other than that I've just been drinking whole milk (which of course has whey protein in it, but not exclusively).

It's just a cheap convenient source of protein, nothing more. (in my opinion)

If I was eating 219g of protein a day I would probably be full all the damn time too.

 

[parrotbeak]

I use it because it's portable. I keep it in my bag, it sits in my car all day while I'm at work, and then I mix it up and drink it right after the gym. I don't use it on weekends when I'm at home within 5 minutes after gym.

I think it's supposed to be good because of its completeness in BCAAs.

 

[Petrie]

Other than how quickly it is absorbed, what even makes whey better than other proteins? I've been taking it after workouts, or if I'm craving something that "tastes good", but other than that I've just been drinking whole milk (which of course has whey protein in it, but not exclusively).

For me Whey helps me get more protein with less carbs, and as a diabetic that can be important. I'm not sure what benefits it has for other people.

That and I can't seem to get enough protein otherwise.

 

[Para bailar La Bomba]

Other than how quickly it is absorbed, what even makes whey better than other proteins? I've been taking it after workouts, or if I'm craving something that "tastes good", but other than that I've just been drinking whole milk (which of course has whey protein in it, but not exclusively).

It's low in fat, I guess.

 

[Izick]

Omfg... Lol.

I tried to ignore this. It was hard.

What's wrong with what I said? I was just listing something that I was proud of. Just because it's not squat or deadlift, doesn't mean that it isn't important to other people.

I'm proud of how far I've come in curls, and I'm not afraid to say it.

I forgot that some here is obsessed with pure strength compound exercises though.

 

[grumble]

What's wrong with what I said? I was just listing something that I was proud of. Just because it's not squat or deadlift, doesn't mean that it isn't important to other people.

I'm proud of how far I've come in curls, and I'm not afraid to say it.

I forgot that everyone here is obsessed with pure strength compound exercises though.

I'm moderately impressed with your curl ability, but the reason people don't take it very seriously is because it's not an exercise that effectively demonstrates your physical ability. A squat, deadlift, bench press, overhead press etc use a lot of muscles in unison to perform the feat, and therefore it translates fairly well into general strength.

That and a focus on curls has a bad cultural association.

 

[Petrie]

What's wrong with what I said? I was just listing something that I was proud of. Just because it's not squat or deadlift, doesn't mean that it isn't important to other people.

I'm proud of how far I've come in curls, and I'm not afraid to say it.

I forgot that everyone here is obsessed with pure strength compound exercises though.

The funny part was you using that as your example of why you "have a solid base".

Curling 55lb dumbbells does nothing to show you have a solid base.

 

[SeanR1221]

Out of curiosity, what would be considered a solid base?

 

[MjFrancis]

Stand proud, Izick. Really, just keeping fit is more than 95% of people are willing to do and honestly I have a hard time spotting a cat who can curl 55lbs dumbbells without swaying like a drunk bar bitch on payday.

And instead of going "lol curling!" throw the kid a bone if you want him to have an idea of what you're looking for.

 

[Izick]

I'm moderately impressed with your curl ability, but the reason people don't take it very seriously is because it's not an exercise that effectively demonstrates your physical ability. A squat, deadlift, bench press, overhead press etc use a lot of muscles in unison to perform the feat, and therefore it translates fairly well into general strength.

That and a focus on curls has a bad cultural association.

I changed "everyone" to "some people" because I didn't think it was fair to label the whole community. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

I still stand behind what I said though. It's something that makes me proud to think how far I've come. Some people are looking for a certain look, with the added benefeit of strength, while some are looking for the reverse, there's nothing wrong with that. I personally want size and strength, and I'm fine with that.

I just think people are a little close minded sometimes towards the thought that maybe people don't want the same things they do when they work out. My favorite day was, and still is, arm day. I love doing bicep and tricep exercises. While using multiple muscle groups is always good, there's something special, to me, about focusing on a single muscle in an exercise.

That's just my opinion. I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone, I just thought that those comments were kind of being derisive in nature, and there's no need for that. If you don't like what I have to say, then you can tell me, but saying "lol curls are dumb" really doesn't do anything but permeate a sense of elitism.

Also, thank you for the compliment.

Stand proud, Izick. Really, just keeping fit is more than 95% of people are willing to do and honestly I have a hard time spotting a cat who can curl 55lbs dumbbells without swaying like a drunk bar bitch on payday.

And instead of going "lol curling!" throw the kid a bone if you want him to have an idea of what you're looking for.

EDIT: I just saw this after I typed up my previous comment, and I agree wholeheartedly. If you want to criticize me that's fine, but as we both listed saying "lol curls suck" does nothing for me.

 

[Mully]

Out of curiosity, what would be considered a solid base?

Doing Box Jumps like this.

That's my goalkeeper trainer with 135 on the bar, plus a 20lb vest doing 33.5 inch box jumps.

 

[ezrarh]

Out of curiosity, what would be considered a solid base?

If your goal is to get strong (and big) then you should be able to do the following - according to Martin Berkhan (although it's generally the same wherever you look):

Within two years of consistent training on a decent routine, the average male should be able to progress to the following levels of strength (1RM):

Strength Goals: Intermediate

Bench press: body weight x 1.2

Chin-ups or pull-ups: body weight x 1.2 or 8 reps with body weight.

Squat: body weight x 1.6

Deadlift: body weight x 2

These numbers are for a raw (no straps, belt or knee wraps) single repetition.

The progress towards the intermediate strength goals should be fairly linear, meaning that there should be no plateaus that cannot be solved in an uncomplicated manner. By "consistent" training I do not mean never missing a training day, nor do I consider taking 2-3 months off from training consistent.

Generally this should be achieved within two years starting from no training but certain people can achieve this in less time, especially if they are more active than the general population. In addition, the shorter you are, it will generally be easier to get a higher multiple of your bodyweight than it is for taller people although it shouldn't matter too much at intermediate levels.

 

[SeanR1221]

If that's a solid base, then I'm a pile of mush.

 

[Izick]

Doing Box Jumps like this.

That's my goalkeeper trainer with 135 on the bar, plus a 20lb vest doing 33.5 inch box jumps.

I respect the hell out of anyone who does those box jumps. I always feel nervous when I see someone do it in the gym, which is rare.

 

[Mully]

I respect the hell out of anyone who does those box jumps. I always feel nervous when I see someone do it in the gym, which is rare.

Yeah he's insane. He was never really into weight training before last year, now he does everything.

There's another video where the weight on the box nearly slips off when he jumps on it. It could have been really bad. I'll try and dig it up.

 

[Izick]

Yeah he's insane. He was never really into weight training before last year, now he does everything.

There's another video where the weight on the box nearly slips off when he jumps on it. It could have been really bad. I'll try and dig it up.

That will be me.