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[SquiddyCracker]

Sometimes I wish I could filter out all the fitness posts that occur outside of this thread.

Fucking hell, is your avatar for real?
Most impressive.

I don't mind it, keeping Fitness insular is what results in those sorts of posts, which is why I'm all for creating fitness-related threads in OP proper if only to give people a chance to learn what's what.

Speaking of which, who's making the Zyzz's Death 2nd Anniversary thread?

 

[SeanR1221]

For those of you who have hurt your lower back from doing squats or deadlifts, what did you do afterward? I've had a pain in my lower right part of back for about a week now and I have an appointment with a doctor to get it checked out tomorrow. It's fine as long as I'm standing, but if I sit, bend down, or otherwise put pressure on that point it starts to hurt quite a bit.

My problem is that I don't have a regular physician, so I have no idea who I'm going to get. I'm just hoping they'll be able to identify what the issue is so I can get started on recovery.

Anyway, I've seen some people in here talk about lower back pains and am just wondering what caused them and how you ended up treating the problem.

Mine developed from heavy squats/deads combined with high rep squats/deads and was probably because I didn't give my power back enough recovery (on bench day I was doing high rep pendlay rows too).

Honestly, rest and stretching are probably going to be the cure.

 

[Easy_Money]

In 5 years I'm prolly dead. I dont have the time to wait that long

Google trenbolone.

But it would make zero sense for you given your experience level.

As per the Zyzz thread, aren't we a little late (at least here in Yurop)?

 

[rando14]

Be careful about discussing and recommending any AAS, guys. Steroids use is serious business and it would be unwise to discuss this with newbies.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Turning the Zyzz thread into a little warning thread about drug use, figured that would be appropriate as we've already had a ridiculous celebratory thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=644871

 

[Easy_Money]

Turning the Zyzz thread into a little warning thread about drug use, figured that would be appropriate as we've already had a ridiculous celebratory thread.

Don't drink Coca Cola while you ride your bike if you have a heart condition. Common sense.

The misc has a really great thread, so much rare photos of him - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155974223

 

[sphinx]

Sometimes I wish I could filter out all the fitness posts that occur outside of this thread.

This comment blew my mind

Also fitness gaf is a joke. Every one in there is under 30 with disposable incomes. They bought their bodies not earn them.

I am 35, for starters and I wish I had disposable income.

and I am buying my body??? the fuck? hahaha, ridiculous.

you can't buy health, a body or being fit, what a sore loser,

 

[Spiritreaver]

Fucking hell, is your avatar for real?
Most impressive.

I don't mind it, keeping Fitness insular is what results in those sorts of posts, which is why I'm all for creating fitness-related threads in OP proper if only to give people a chance to learn what's what.

Speaking of which, who's making the Zyzz's Death 2nd Anniversary thread?

You make a good point. There is a lot of animosity between FitGAF and the other fitness communities. I've never really understood why. People used to be rather rude with their advice, but not much at all lately. *shrugs*

And yeah, it's me. Thanks.

Be careful about discussing and recommending any AAS, guys. Steroids use is serious business and it would be unwise to discuss this with newbies.

This. I will always be in the camp of don't ever bother using except under rather extreme circumstances.

But I'll be brutally honest. I know next to nothing about the stuff. I've never done it, never researched it, neevr even considered it an option. So I'm not really qualified to speak about it.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Don't drink Coca Cola while you ride your bike if you have a heart condition. Common sense.

The misc has a really great thread, so much rare photos of him - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155974223

Dat first pic tho...

 

[Petrie]

Alright Fitgaf, it's time to start planning:

I've been doing 5/3/1 with a bodybuilding style routine throug my cut for months now, since like March/Aprilish. That's meant minimum reps on each day on my final sets, resulting in a final 1RM of DL - 425 Bench 255, OHP - Hopefully 175, and Squat hopefully 335. Now it's time to switch to a bulk come late August/Early September and switch to a version of 5/3/1 where I do my may reps, and switch back to Boring but Big in place of isolation.

My thought is though since I'm upping volume and changing thr routine, I should drop the weight a bit for maximum gains, but I don't know if that's a good idea or by how much. I could just press forward at a caloric surplus, but perhaps getting more reps on those final sets at a slightly lower weight will be better for the overall bulk. Strength still matters, but more size is my number one goal on this bulk, while minimizing fat gains.

Any input is greatly appreciated GAF.

Progress pics coming in 2 weeks! Killed some progress this past week, but we shall see if I can recover!

 

[Cagey]

Anyone on Fit-GAF been dragged to Soul Cycle, the cult-like gimmicky spin class? Those seats are a literal pain in the ass.

 

[Teggy]

Was raining a little today so decided to cut my rest short and go to gym on vacation. Small but decent local gym, similar to my local one. Except they've got these Cybex machines (I do squats and other free weight but use machines for some leg exercises and pull downs, etc.) which have plates just numbered 1, 2, etc. So I fumble through a bunch of the workout because I can't figure out what I am lifting. Looked on the website after and they've got all kinds of crazy configurations - 20 lb plates with 10 at the top, 9 lb plates, 12.5 lb plates. Haven't these guys ever heard of 5 and 10 lb plates? Or maybe putting a sticker on the machine lol.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Anyone on Fit-GAF been dragged to Soul Cycle, the cult-like gimmicky spin class? Those seats are a literal pain in the ass.

Man I do hiit on a cycle for lik25 minutes sometimes. I don't know if I'm built for those long ass classes. A friend of mine goes to them because the girls. Whatever works I guess.

 

[abuC]

My cardio comes in the form of basketball, getting my wind back now, my shot is all types of fucked up now which is sad considering I used to have such a pretty jumper. But, on the flipside nobody can keep me out of the paint or grab a rebound from me, once I plant and box out you are not moving me. So picking things up and putting them back down again has proved really useful for ball.

 

[Easy_Money]

My cardio comes in the form of basketball, getting my wind back now, my shot is all types of fucked up now which is sad considering I used to have such a pretty jumper. But, on the flipside nobody can keep me out of the paint or grab a rebound from me, once I plant and box out you are not moving me. So picking things up and putting them back down again has proved really useful for ball.

3 on 3 basketball can be pretty brutal, especially in the paint. I think my knees won't be thanking me for all those rebounds, putbacks and blocks. (

 

[Matugi]

Well maxed out at 290lbs at 152lb bodyweight. So close to the 300 pound club, but I'm happy with 25 pounds higher at 10 pounds lighter since I last maxed.

 

[Bracket]

Age: 22
Height: 6' 5"
Weight: 180
Goal: Rugby (Winger position)
Current Training Schedule: Tuesday/Thursday - Rugby Practice | Monday/Wednesday - Gym
Current Training Equipment Available: School Gym
Comments:

Okay, some background info. I've been skinny/lean my whole life. I've played tennis since elementary school, but recently I gave that up. In the four to five months since, I've gained about 20 pounds, which is good as I needed to gain some more weight. Haven't been exercising much, unfortunately. I've been doing push-ups and crunches, but that's about it. My main issue is self-motivation, to just get up and exercise. I've never been partial to working out for the sake of working out. I used tennis as a way to distract myself while at the same time getting the exercise I needed. Anyway, I've decided to take up rugby at my university. I want to become a rugby winger, who are known for their speed, agility, and bursts of power. I have the speed, but I can always get faster. I need that burst of power though for my acceleration. Being as tall as I am, it takes a little too long to get up to full speed. Also, I want to build up my endurance as I'll be sprinting up and down the field, which is something I'm not used to as I've only had to sprint short distances playing tennis. In addition, I need to gain mass for better durability and breaking through tackles.

All of this will be taking place in 2 weeks when I go back to school and have access to the university rec center, which should have all the equipment I should need. Rugby will start around that time, too. What I'm hoping is for rugby to be a benchmark on my fitness progression in the gym. Also, to use it as a way of motivation towards going to the gym because I will be able to see what I need to improve my abilities. What I'm worried about is that once I become physically active again, I’ll immediately shave off the weight I’ve gained as was the case with tennis. The big problem to this is that I have a small appetite due to some medication I take.

So, what I’m hoping to achieve by posting all this is a routine for me to stick to (I assume it will consist of cardio and weightlifting), and maybe even some nutritional advice specific to my goal. Ultimately, I want to be one of the fastest out there, and acquire enough mass to endure/break tackles. Hopefully, I have followed the posting guidelines for this thread, and thanks in advance.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

You make a good point. There is a lot of animosity between FitGAF and the other fitness communities. I've never really understood why. People used to be rather rude with their advice, but not much at all lately. *shrugs*

Look no further than the muscle shaming thread to see why anyone who betters themselves is hated

 

[SeanR1221]

Anyone planning their Halloween costume already? Just curious.

Thinking about doing a Paul Bunyan and my wife can be babe.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Anyone planning their Halloween costume already? Just curious.

Thinking about doing a Paul Bunyan and my wife can be babe.

Planning on 60s Batman.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Anyone planning their Halloween costume already? Just curious.

Thinking about doing a Paul Bunyan and my wife can be babe.

Me and a buddy are going as Jules and Vincent from pulp fiction.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Sounds like you know what to do, Bracket!
Good luck!

I was considering going as a spartan if I can get my BF% low enough, though I wouldn't have the body mass to really pull it off I feel.

 

[SeanR1221]

Me and q buddy are going as Jules and Vincent from pulp fiction.

My brother did Vincent last year. Turned out really good. His wife was Mia

 

[sphinx]

Look no further than the muscle shaming thread to see why anyone who betters themselves is hated

animosity between disciplines that are too similar is childish but sadly expected and normal to a certain degree.

.- Jazz pianist vs Classical pianist,
.- Ballet Dancer vs Modern Dancer,
.- Crossfitter/Calisthenics vs Weightlifter,
.- Strength/Olympic lifter vs bodybuilder (uuuhh, the youtube comments fights are hilarious)
.- Ice Figure Skater vs. Ice Hockey skater,
.- Musical Singer vs. Opera Singer...

they all hate each other with a passion. That beach body thread and this thread are clearly in a similar situation.

I have never posted there and for some reason I don't feel identified with what I read in that OP. It doesn't look like learning a discipline but rather do stuff to get in shape, and once you are in shape, "congrats! you are done!"...I know everybody is different, but I never felt the need to buy a DVD and fancy expensive equipment to realize I have to go and do cardio and stuff like pushups and situps to be in shape....I care for strength and muscles so I decided I wanted to stay here but whatever makes people move and better themselves, I am all for that. I am glad many people find success following the other thread too.

the weight loss thread seems like a middle ground, though. That's a very inclusive thread and I love to see people's progress there.

 

[eddfromtheriver]

Is there any success stories of an ectomorph who against his genetic odds gained a decent amount of muscle mass?... i need to be given "animo".

I've tried protein shakes, creatin, eaten above my maintenance calories, minding a careful ratio of proteins, carbs and fats, i work out hard of course... but no considerable muscle mass gains... im lean and ripped but i would love to have a little bit more meat in my bones.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Is there any success stories of an ectomorph who against his genetic odds gained a decent amount of muscle mass?... i need to be given "animo".

I've tried protein shakes, creatin, eaten above my maintenance calories, minding a careful ratio of proteins, carbs and fats, i work out hard of course... but no considerable muscle mass gains... im lean and ripped but i would love to have a little bit more meat in my bones.

Posting the classic:

There was a time at the Old Westside gym where I couldn’t gain weight to save my fucking life.


There was this dude who trained there who could just put on weight like fucking magic. He’d go from 198 to 308 and then to 275 and back down to 198. And he was never fat. It was amazing.


I finally asked him one day how he did it.


“You mean I never told you the secret to gaining weight? Come outside and I’ll fill you in.”


Now remember, we’re at Westside Barbell. And this guy wants to go outside to talk so no one else can hear. Think about that for a minute. What the hell is he going to tell me? This must be some serious shit if we have to go outside, I thought.


So we get outside and he starts talking.


“For breakfast you need to eat four of those breakfast sandwiches from McDonalds. I don’t care which ones you get, but make sure to get four. Order four hash browns, too. Now grab two packs of mayonnaise and put them on the hash browns and then slip them into the sandwiches. Squish that shit down and eat. That’s your breakfast.”


At this point I’m thinking this guy is nuts. But he’s completely serious.


“For lunch you’re gonna eat Chinese food. Now I don’t want you eating that crappy stuff. You wanna get the stuff with MSG. None of that non-MSG bullshit. I don’t care what you eat but you have to sit down and eat for at least 45 minutes straight. You can’t let go of the fork. Eat until your eyes swell up and become slits and you start to look like the woman behind the counter.”


“For dinner you’re gonna order an extra-large pizza with everything on it. Literally everything. If you don’t like sardines, don’t put ’em on, but anything else that you like you have to load it on there. After you pay the delivery guy, I want you to take the pie to your coffee table, open that fucker up, and grab a bottle of oil. It can be olive oil, canola oil, whatever. Anything but motor oil. And I want you to pour that shit over the pie until half of the bottle is gone. Just soak the shit out of it.”


“Now before you lay into it, I want you to sit on your couch and just stare at that fucker. I want you to understand that that pizza right there is keeping you from your goals.”


This guy is in a zen-like state when he’s talking about this.


“Now you’re on the clock,” he continues. “After 20 minutes your brain is going to tell you you’re full. Don’t listen to that shit. You have to try and eat as much of the pizza as you can before that 20-minute mark. Double up pieces if you have to. I’m telling you now, you’re going to get three or four pieces in and you’re gonna want to quit. You fucking can’t quit. You have to sit on that couch until every piece is done.


And if you can’t finish it, don’t you ever come back to me and tell me you can’t gain weight. ’Cause I’m gonna tell you that you don’t give a fuck about getting bigger and you don’t care how much you lift!”


Did I do it? Hell yeah. Started the next day and did it for two months. Went from 260 pounds to 297 pounds. And I didn’t get much fatter. One of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life, though.

 

[eddfromtheriver]

Eh... kinda scary... doesn't the stomach have a limited amount of food that it can hold before it gives out?... i mean if i'm to ignore the signals my body sends telling me there's no more space down there... wouldn't i risk having my stomach burst open?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Eh... kinda scary... doesn't the stomach have a limited amount of food that it can hold before it gives out?... i mean if i'm to ignorae the signals my body sends telling me there's no more space down there... wouldn't i risk having my stomach burst open?

That's not going to happen


If I were you I'd track my calories for a while to get an idea of how little you probably eat. I'm the opposite, insulin sensitive and can blow up pretty fast if I don't mind my eating habits. Makes cutting a battle of attrition.

 

[blackflag]

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=74866799

You read it here first. We all bought our bodies and were all 20 something's with tons of income.

Wow hopefully he was a junior

 

[eddfromtheriver]

That's not going to happen


If I were you I'd track my calories for a while to get an idea of how little you probably eat. I'm the opposite, insulin sensitive and can blow up pretty fast if I don't mind my eating habits. Makes cutting a battle of attrition.

Thanks for the advice!

With that said... my post wasn't quite clear, i meant to ask if there are any members in this thread who have had success in gaining a good amount of muscle mass even if they're ectomorphs.

 

[SeanR1221]

Wow hopefully he was a junior

Yeah he was ^___^

 

[SquiddyCracker]

That's not going to happen


If I were you I'd track my calories for a while to get an idea of how little you probably eat. I'm the opposite, insulin sensitive and can blow up pretty fast if I don't mind my eating habits. Makes cutting a battle of attrition.

I might also be insulin sensitive, how do you proceed to clean bulk?
Low-carb/keto?

 

[Noema]

Thanks for the advice!

With that said... my post wasn't quite clear, i meant to ask if there are any members in this thread who have had success in gaining a good amount of muscle mass even if they're ectomorphs.

I'm not sure if I was ever an "ectomorph" (I don't like those categories since often they only serve so people can set themselves up to failure) but before I started lifting seriously I was about 155lb at 6'2" (about 26 months ago) and today I'm sitting at 225lbish.

I did it by following the Seefood diet+GOMAD, and doing heavy compound lifts.

 

[The Lamp]

I just don't have the energy to finish my work outs anymore. Maybe it's the Deadlifts. I haven't done much different but add that. Should I just eat more or what? I'm so light headed I think I'm gonna throw up and pass out.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Hopefully someone can answer this, but I buy All Whites eggs whites that comes in the green carton. Do you guys think there are antibiotics in it? I couldn't really find anything on Google except for on their site it says it's all natural, pasturized, and no hormones.

Thank you

 

[SeanR1221]

That's not going to happen


If I were you I'd track my calories for a while to get an idea of how little you probably eat. I'm the opposite, insulin sensitive and can blow up pretty fast if I don't mind my eating habits. Makes cutting a battle of attrition.

Can you elaborate a little more? You're already pretty cut up, maybe we have different definitions of blowing up?

 

[rando14]

I just don't have the energy to finish my work outs anymore. Maybe it's the Deadlifts. I haven't done much different but add that. Should I just eat more or what? I'm so light headed I think I'm gonna throw up and pass out.

First things first: are you breathing properly during sets and resting enough between them? When it comes to compound lifts especially, MANUALLY BREATHE. That means focus on every breath, making sure you're inhaling and exhaling properly.

It's very easy to just exhale a ton after you lift the weight, but then forget to inhale adequately. -> Lightheadedness -> DEATH!!!! Well maybe not death

 

[cryptic]

Was talking with my training partner who looks like CT Fletcher but without roids,Burke man.

He always gives me great advice. I was staring at the bar thinking, while doing light deads to improve my form. I have been doing Riptoe style deads forever but noticed that bringing my shins to the bar was making it difficult to get my shoulders behind the bar, presumably cause I'm short and stocky.

So the guy comes over and asks me what's wrong. I tell him about my form and my shoulders. He puts his shins against the bar and I immediately realize naw, if this guy can do it I'm not too stocky, he has a chest like two mattresses stacked. He did explain something that I just needed someone to point out I suppose, that I should be working to pull more with my shoulders as pulling with my hips is a much shorter range. If I pull with my shoulders, he says, if worst comes to worse, instead of locking out with my legs fully extended, i can just basically stand up at that point. This was a big problem on my last PR.

Another gem, I shouldn't worry too much about the weight like I was, just worry about how much I can put into it. This is after I'm getting up to the bar and pulling off and back on every time checking switches like a pilot. He says once I commit to it, focus on nothing else, now I do, and just with that alone my lifts are jumping.

I thought that this was interesting so I just felt like sharing.

 

[The Lamp]

First things first: are you breathing properly during sets and resting enough between them? When it comes to compound lifts especially, MANUALLY BREATHE. That means focus on every breath, making sure you're inhaling and exhaling properly.

It's very easy to just exhale a ton after you lift the weight, but then forget to inhale adequately. -> Lightheadedness -> DEATH!!!! Well maybe not death

I try my best. Sometimes I mess up. But I do try to focus on it. Exhale on the lift, inhale going back down. Still though x(

 

[BlueScrote]

For those of you who have hurt your lower back from doing squats or deadlifts, what did you do afterward? I've had a pain in my lower right part of back for about a week now and I have an appointment with a doctor to get it checked out tomorrow. It's fine as long as I'm standing, but if I sit, bend down, or otherwise put pressure on that point it starts to hurt quite a bit.

My problem is that I don't have a regular physician, so I have no idea who I'm going to get. I'm just hoping they'll be able to identify what the issue is so I can get started on recovery.

Anyway, I've seen some people in here talk about lower back pains and am just wondering what caused them and how you ended up treating the problem.

For me, it's always applying heat and ice on and off.

I needed to add a whole load of assistance work to push my OHP from 40 to 50kg. It took a good month and a half.

Re: form; I have seen some videos saying you shouldn't lock out OHP but personally I like the sense of achievement locking out gives. The biggest form issue to me has been preventing lower back soreness by reducing arching. For grip check some videos showing you the correct elbow angles and then remember which line on the bar you grip.

I always lock out so that I can take a deep breath at the top. I've found that breathing at the lockout works a lot better for me than when it's at the starting position.

 

[entremet]

Bought a pack of the Apple pie flavored Quest bars. I'm more of a real foods guy, but I'm hooked on these thing, plus the macros are so good!

 

[blackflag]

For those of you who have hurt your lower back from doing squats or deadlifts, what did you do afterward? I've had a pain in my lower right part of back for about a week now and I have an appointment with a doctor to get it checked out tomorrow. It's fine as long as I'm standing, but if I sit, bend down, or otherwise put pressure on that point it starts to hurt quite a bit.

My problem is that I don't have a regular physician, so I have no idea who I'm going to get. I'm just hoping they'll be able to identify what the issue is so I can get started on recovery.

Anyway, I've seen some people in here talk about lower back pains and am just wondering what caused them and how you ended up treating the problem.

I have this problem. It's recurring. I must have a bad disk. It's kept me at the same deadlift PR for like a year. Finally progressing again with squats.........but guess what. It snapped itself up today on chest day. Wasn't even doing anything that shoulda hurt it

 

[blackflag]

Sometimes I wish I could filter out all the fitness posts that occur outside of this thread.

I always go in thinking I'm gonna get a good laugh....always leave angry.

 

[SeanR1221]

I have this problem. It's recurring. I must have a bad disk. It's kept me at the same deadlift PR for like a year. Finally progressing again with squats.........but guess what. It snapped itself up today on chest day. Wasn't even doing anything that shoulda hurt it

:/ this is my fear for my future.

 

[Servbot24]

What do you guys think of Cliff bars? I eat one practically every day seems like.

Also Xenergy energy drinks? I love those

 

[entremet]

Hopefully someone can answer this, but I buy All Whites eggs whites that comes in the green carton. Do you guys think there are antibiotics in it? I couldn't really find anything on Google except for on their site it says it's all natural, pasturized, and no hormones.

Thank you

Chickens are not given hormones. It's against FDA law. They are given antibiotics, but that is rarely passed toward their eggs. So eggs do not contain antibiotics per se.

Don't skimp on yolks--it's the most nutrient dense part of the egg.

 

[rando14]

I have this problem. It's recurring. I must have a bad disk. It's kept me at the same deadlift PR for like a year. Finally progressing again with squats.........but guess what. It snapped itself up today on chest day. Wasn't even doing anything that shoulda hurt it

What exactly happened? How does it feel?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Reading all of your guys' replies to my lower back pain question and it's no wonder why so many bros want to skip leg day.

I'm really bummed right now, because squats and deadlifts were my favorite exercises after beginning to go to the gym in June. I hope I can identify the problem with the doctor tomorrow and figure this shit out.

What exactly happened? How does it feel?

Mine happened while doing a deadlift after having finished a new squat weight record earlier in the day. Was just a sharp pain in my lower right back area that lingered. Felt like something was really tense and being pulled kind of. After a while the pain went away as long as I was standing up and standing still, but it was kind of bad for a few days. I thought it was mostly better after resting for four days, but it flared up again when I tried to do deadlifts that day. Any time I bend over, sit down, or otherwise put pressure on that area, the pain comes back.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

powerlifting dude was mirin' my form on squats today saying I should try powerlifting. I want to give it a go next year, but my deadlift right now is asscheeks. I don't push myself nearly hard enough, I shouldn't be afraid to fail, but I stick with what I'm comfortable with sometimes. I don't go any higher than 305 on bench press because I know I can do that for at least 5 reps no problem when pyramiding up. I'm neurotic as fuck when it comes to deadlifting, I just sort of get into a holding pattern pacing around the weight when I get ready for a relatively big pull. I've never even attempted to squat more than 405, just because I prefer doing weights in at least sets of 5. I need to step my game up.

 

[huxley00]

Reading all of your guys' replies to my lower back pain question and it's no wonder why so many bros want to skip leg day.

I'm really bummed right now, because squats and deadlifts were my favorite exercises after beginning to go to the gym in June. I hope I can identify the problem with the doctor tomorrow and figure this shit out.



Mine happened while doing a deadlift after having finished a new squat weight record earlier in the day. Was just a sharp pain in my lower right back area that lingered. Felt like something was really tense and being pulled kind of. After a while the pain went away as long as I was standing up and standing still, but it was kind of bad for a few days. I thought it was mostly better after resting for four days, but it flared up again when I tried to do deadlifts that day. Any time I bend over, sit down, or otherwise put pressure on that area, the pain comes back.

I had a similar issue, it turned out I was looking up slightly instead of keeping my head down and in line with my back. It was causing a little arch and put a lot of pressure on my lower back. Once I fixed that, I haven't had an issue. May not help you but I thought I would give you my 2c.