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[reckless]

I'm sorry. Words and walking are enough to justify killing a human being. My mistake. Worlds of difference there.

Well we don't really know what happened during the fight but it was more then just words, it was threats.

 

[mike23]

So words are enough to justify killing another human being?

The coming towards you part is.

It amazes me when people act like a fist fight isn't a life or death situation. Are you willing to bet your life that some random dude will stop punching you when you're defenseless? When they're in the heat of the moment filled with rage? Fuck that. Not to mention, dying is only the worst outcome. Paralysis, blindness, broken jaw, etc. You can take the highroad and get put in the hospital. I can't blame anyone for avoiding that.

It's nearly as bad as every nut who comes into a cop shooting thread saying, "Why didn't they aim for his arms or legs."


In this exact situation, maybe he provoked him, that should be a crime. Maybe he's lying about the guy charging. Who knows, the facts aren't exactly clear.

Maybe wait until his feet hit your property at least. Then you can kill him in the confines of your own yard.

Jesus.

This really makes it any better? He needs to be within 10 feet, rather than 12?

 

[Crud]

They were both black, but nice race card.



Or die.

Sure. Losing a fight = death. I have so many lives then lol. LUCKY ME!

 

[Jest Chillin]

Well we don't really know what happened during the fight but it was more then just words, it was threats.

By the shooters own account there was no fight. No physical altercation whatsoever. The man who was shot never stepped foot onto The Shooter's property and The Shooter never stepped foot off his own property.

All that happened was some loud talk. And at the same time that the victim was making his "threats" he was also stating that he wasn't going to step foot onto the other man's property because he'd be in the wrong then.

So.. do we take all his words seriously? None of them? Or pick and choose which to take seriously to make it ok that he was killed?

 

[Moppeh]

People are too quick to grab their guns. It's a goddamn shame. If someone is being aggressive or threatening you, why not call the police? He didn't lay a finger on him, correct? So why the fuck does he think he can shoot him? "Self defense" is a term that is way too flexible in current Florida law. It seems to be more about defending your pride than defending your body.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

By the shooters own account there was no fight. No physical altercation whatsoever. The man who was shot never stepped foot onto The Shooter's property and The Shooter never stepped foot off his own property.

All that happened was some loud talk. And at the same time that the victim was making his "threats" he was also stating that he wasn't going to step foot onto the other man's property because he'd be in the wrong then.

So.. do we take all his words seriously? None of them? Or pick and choose which to take seriously to make it ok that he was killed?

It seems like the shooter could have easily said "Sorry, man" and walked away. But instead he shot the guy to keep his manhood intact.

If a guy is trying to come into your home and attack you, sure, defend yourself. The victim here was not doing that. Call the police if you're worried... though I'm afraid the victim still could have ended up shot :/.

 

[reckless]

By the shooters own account there was no fight. No physical altercation whatsoever. The man who was shot never stepped foot onto The Shooter's property and The Shooter never stepped foot off his own property.

All that happened was some loud talk. And at the same time that the victim was making his "threats" he was also stating that he wasn't going to step foot onto the other man's property because he'd be in the wrong then.

So.. do we take all his words seriously? None of them? Or pick and choose which to take seriously to make it ok that he was killed?

Well he also talked about he had guns at home, how he was gonna spread the other guys blood all over the street and threatened him for about six minutes straight.

The shooter said the other guy charged at him, if somebody is threatening you for that long and then charges at you its pretty reasonable to fear great bodily harm which is what is needed to use deadly force.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

So.. going inside your house after the man walked away initially isn't an option?

If The Shooter didn't want to force a confrontation he wouldn't have called a friend to bring him a gun and then opened the gate to his property "to entice" the other man to enter it. The two men were neighbors. The shooter knew full well that the other man would be back multiple times because they live near each other.

Of course it's an option. Another option would have been to call the police, but given the apparent racial make up of the neighborhood, my guess is that the police response would have been slow and may have backfired on the property owner. Yet another option would've been for Kinsey to make Smith a nice cup of lemonade and they could've laughed about their misunderstandings. Laughed and laughed I tell you.

But he didn't choose those options. He stayed where he was rightfully allowed to stay. Opening the gate didn't "force" the confrontation. Smith could've seen the open gate and left it the fuck alone. For that matter, let's talk about Smith's options. Smith could have not even gone back. Smith could've brought his own gun to the gunfight. Smith could've shut up and kept walking past Kelvin's place in the first place. Smith could've gone home, made some lemonade, brought it back, apologize for calling Kelvin so many names and they could've laughed about their misunderstandings. Laughed and laughed I tell you.

But he didn't choose those options. Instead, he threatened serious injury to Kelvin, left, came back, and, at a minimum according to the eyewitness, had his hands in an aggressive posture (consistent with the threats he previously made,) and started to advance on the person he was threatening.

 

[Booshka]

If you're trained well enough your fists can be classified as deadly weapons. Either way, couple idiots plus a Gun, guess what happened.

RIP Karate Kid.

 

[Jest Chillin]

The coming towards you part is.

It amazes me when people act like a fist fight isn't a life or death situation. Are you willing to bet your life that some random dude will stop punching you when you're defenseless? When they're in the heat of the moment filled with rage? Fuck that. Not to mention, dying is only the worst outcome. Paralysis, blindness, broken jaw, etc. You can take the highroad and get put in the hospital. I can't blame anyone for avoiding that.

It's nearly as bad as every nut who comes into a cop shooting thread saying, "Why didn't they aim for his arms or legs."


In this exact situation, maybe he provoked him, that should be a crime. Maybe he's lying about the guy charging. Who knows, the facts aren't exactly clear.

Walking towards someone when you're completely unarmed is not a justification to use deadly force. It's absolutely ridiculous to even suggest so. The outside chance that maybe you sustain a major injury if this person who is walking towards you perhaps decides to touch you physically with enough force to cause harm does not justify lethal force.

And in this exact situation, the shooter most definitely did what he could "to entice" the other man to do something that would justify killing. You are brandishing a gun. Visually showing that you have a gun on you on your own property.. and you fear for your life because an unarmed man is standing outside of your property yelling? I don't buy it.

 

[Transhuman]

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXoggRLjcM

 

[Squirrel Killer]

By the shooters own account there was no fight. No physical altercation whatsoever. The man who was shot never stepped foot onto The Shooter's property and The Shooter never stepped foot off his own property.

So your position is that you can't defend yourself until you've been physically hit yourself?

 

[mike23]

Walking towards someone when you're completely unarmed is not a justification to use deadly force. It's absolutely ridiculous to even suggest so. The outside chance that maybe you sustain a major injury if this person who is walking towards you perhaps decides to touch you physically with enough force to cause harm does not justify lethal force.

And in this exact situation, the shooter most definitely did what he could "to entice" the other man to do something that would justify killing. You are brandishing a gun. Visually showing that you have a gun on you on your own property.. and you fear for your life because an unarmed man is standing outside of your property yelling? I don't buy it.

Does he have hands? Then he's not unarmed. I'm very much pro-gun control, anti-gun, etc. Hence why I don't own a gun. But I firmly believe that no one has any responsibility to risk their life or great physical harm to protect the person doing them that harm. If a person attacks another person, the victim has every right to prevent that harm. If they only have a knife, then they should be free to stab them in the eye. If they only have a gun, then they can shoot them.

I will never agree that a person has to accept real physical harm out of concern for an attacker's well being

 

[Jest Chillin]

Well he also talked about he had guns at home, how he was gonna spread the other guys blood all over the street and threatened him for about six minutes straight.

The shooter said the other guy charged at him, if somebody is threatening you for that long and then charges at you its pretty reasonable to fear great bodily harm which is what is needed to use deadly force.

The victim yelled for 6 minutes and never stepped off the sidewalk. He left. He walked by again with young kids carrying equipment that was used to help teach those same young kids. Yelled some more and again walked away. It took the third time of walking past for something to happen and that even during that third time the victim never stepped off of the sidewalk and onto The Shooter's property.

Dude was not a threat and no amount of spin will make that reality.

Of course it's an option. Another option would have been to call the police, but given the apparent racial make up of the neighborhood, my guess is that the police response would have been slow and may have backfired on the property owner. Yet another option would've been for Kinsey to make Smith a nice cup of lemonade and they could've laughed about their misunderstandings. Laughed and laughed I tell you.

But he didn't choose those options. He stayed where he was rightfully allowed to stay. Opening the gate didn't "force" the confrontation. Smith could've seen the open gate and left it the fuck alone. For that matter, let's talk about Smith's options. Smith could have not even gone back. Smith could've brought his own gun to the gunfight. Smith could've shut up and kept walking past Kelvin's place in the first place. Smith could've gone home, made some lemonade, brought it back, apologize for calling Kelvin so many names and they could've laughed about their misunderstandings. Laughed and laughed I tell you.

But he didn't choose those options. Instead, he threatened serious injury to Kelvin, left, came back, and, at a minimum according to the eyewitness, had his hands in an aggressive posture (consistent with the threats he previously made,) and started to advance on the person he was threatening.

"Making a cup of lemonade" isn't anywhere comparible to going inside the house rather than trying to force a confrontation.

And when Kinsey openly admits that he opened that gate to entice Smith to enter his property so he could shoot him legally... that should be more than enough to eliminate self defense. Let alone the fact that he shot Smith when Smith hadn't even entered the property.

 

[alterno69]

So your position is that you can't defend yourself until you've been physically hit yourself?

So you're saying people should be allowed to kill anyone just for yelling at them? In the middle of the street? Would you feel the same way if the shooter in this case was a cop?

 

[reckless]

The victim yelled for 6 minutes and never stepped off the sidewalk. He left. He walked by again with young kids carrying equipment that was used to help teach those same young kids. Yelled some more and again walked away. It took the third time of walking past for something to happen and that even during that third time the victim never stepped off of the sidewalk and onto The Shooter's property.

Dude was not a threat and no amount of spin will make that reality.



"Making a cup of lemonade" isn't anywhere comparible to going inside the house rather than trying to force a confrontation.

And when Kinsey openly admits that he opened that gate to entice Smith to enter his property so he could shoot him legally... that should be more than enough to eliminate self defense. Let alone the fact that he shot Smith when Smith hadn't even entered the property.

Some guy doesn't have to be on your property to beat the hell out of you. If you're on the sidewalk that doesn't give everyone the right to attack you while you have to run home to defend yourself.

If the guy was about to attack or in the process of attacking then yes he was a threat, especially after all lf the yelling and threats that he made.

 

[mike23]

So you're saying people should be allowed to kill anyone just for yelling at them? In the middle of the street? Would you feel the same way if the shooter in this case was a cop?

I feel like people are just outright ignoring the fact that he either charged or took a few steps towards him depending on who you believe.

Obviously, no one here is saying that words are enough to kill someone over. But once you move to make good on those threats, people don't have to wait until you hit them to protect themselves.

 

[kittenbreath]

They were both black, but nice race card.

Just because the shooter was also black doesn't mean that the victim was immune from the stigma associated with racial stereotypes.

Anyway, this seems like a really tough call. Both parties bear part of the blame for the situation escalating: the shooter for repeatedly harassing the victim and introducing a weapon into the dispute, Smith for challenging the guy to a fight and coming back to the house. This could have all been avoided if one of them had been willing to just let it slide.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

Why not just knee cap him? Not saying I condone what happened, but why is everyone so intent on kill shots?

I don't actually have any gun training so maybe that is a hard shot.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Walking towards someone when you're completely unarmed is not a justification to use deadly force. It's absolutely ridiculous to even suggest so. The outside chance that maybe you sustain a major injury if this person who is walking towards you perhaps decides to touch you physically with enough force to cause harm does not justify lethal force.

On the contrary, it's absolutely ridiculous to see the world in such absolute terms.

Hypothetical. Dark alley. Young petite woman. Roided up jock. They're 10 feet apart. He's standing there talking how he's going to rape her in graphic detail. He starts advancing on her, and by your standard, she has no right to use the gun she has in her purse to defend her.

And in this exact situation, the shooter most definitely did what he could "to entice" the other man to do something that would justify killing. You are brandishing a gun. Visually showing that you have a gun on you on your own property.. and you fear for your life because an unarmed man is standing outside of your property yelling? I don't buy it.

Again, according to witnesses, he was not "standing outside," he was advancing on Kelvin. Do facts (as far as we know them) bother you?

 

[Pepiope]

So you're saying people should be allowed to kill anyone just for yelling at them? In the middle of the street? Would you feel the same way if the shooter in this case was a cop?

Making threats is a bit more than just yelling.

 

[alterno69]

I feel like people are just outright ignoring the fact that he either charged or took a few steps towards him depending on who you believe.

Obviously, no one here is saying that words are enough to kill someone over. But once you move to make good on those threats, people don't have to wait until you hit them to protect themselves.

So, i guess you're cool with the latest news about cops killing unarmed citizens then? The man was outside the shooters property, i can't believe some of you are ok with a man being shot at for something like that.

 

[pants]

?

This image instantly popped into my head

 

[Pepiope]

Why not just knee cap him? Not saying I condone what happened, but why is everyone so intent on kill shots?

I don't actually have any gun training so maybe that is a hard shot.

You shoot to kill. You don't aim for a knee, you aim for the biggest target, the chest. It's not the easiest thing to hit a target.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

So you're saying people should be allowed to kill anyone just for yelling at them? In the middle of the street? Would you feel the same way if the shooter in this case was a cop?

So you're saying that people should post without acknowledging that I've made clear Smith's advancing on Kelvin was a factor in providing Kelvin's self-defense defense?

 

[mike23]

Why not just knee cap him? Not saying I condone what happened, but why is everyone so intent on kill shots?

I don't actually have any gun training so maybe that is a hard shot.

It's an impossible shot under pressure. Plus, where do you think bullets go when you miss?

 

[Siegcram]

If only karate guy had a gun. That's how these things work in America, right?

 

[jwk94]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's an urban legend/joke.

edit: I'm at work and can't watch the video. Does he shoot after they begin fighting, or were they just talking shit and about to fight, and then he shoots?

well then =/

 

[Jest Chillin]

So your position is that you can't defend yourself until you've been physically hit yourself?

There needs to be a reasonable threat and defense should be appropriate to the threat. If a 65 year old man in a wheel chair tells a 21 year old athlete he's going to kick his ass.. that's not justification for the athlete to beat the other man with a bat.

Reasonable reactions to legitimate threats is what I expect. Not a blanket rule for people to use as a checklist to legally justify murder.

Does he have hands? Then he's not unarmed. I'm very much pro-gun control, anti-gun, etc. Hence why I don't own a gun. But I firmly believe that no one has any responsibility to risk their life or great physical harm to protect the person doing them that harm. If a person attacks another person, the victim has every right to prevent that harm. If they only have a knife, then they should be free to stab them in the eye. If they only have a gun, then they can shoot them.

I will never agree that a person has to accept real physical harm out of concern for an attacker's well being

Hands are not weapons and can not be considered as weapons until they are used as weapons. People argue and yell and make threats all day every day and the vast majority of it results in absolutely nothing ever happening. Just because someone is on the receiving end of some insults or threats does not justify them in being the one to elevate the confrontation with violence.

No punch was thrown. The victim never stepped foot onto the shooters property. Hell in the video that's shown in the article, The Shooter advances closer to the open gate and even steps out of his gate.. and still the victim didn't attack him. There is no way that I can see this situation as The Shooter just protecting himself. He did everything he could to put himself in the position to shoot the other man.

 

[Booshka]

Live to fight another day.

 

[akira28]

You shoot to kill. You don't aim for a knee, you aim for the biggest target, the chest. It's not the easiest thing to hit a target.

This is actually crap, but its what most cops and gun owners are trained to do, hit center mass, to drop a target most effectively, and to prevent property damage or potential injury to bystanders via errant rounds or ricochets. You can shoot to wound someone, but you'd better be a good shot, make sure you don't miss, make sure you actually incapacitate the target, and also don't hurt someone else even worse.

Karate shouldn't have tried to escalate, unfortunately, no matter what happened, but Dirty Harry knows he was wrong too, and the much greater wrong.

 

[Siegcram]

This is actually crap, but its what most cops and gun owners are trained to do, hit center mass, to drop a target most effectively, and to prevent property damage or potential injury to bystanders via errant rounds or ricochets. You can shoot to wound someone, but you'd better be a good shot, make sure you don't miss, make sure you actually incapacitate the target, and also don't hurt someone else even worse.

It's almost as if you should train with it before using a deadly weapon.

 

[reckless]

This is actually crap, but its what most cops and gun owners are trained to do, hit center mass, to drop a target most effectively, and to prevent property damage or potential injury to bystanders via errant rounds or ricochets. You can shoot to wound someone, but you'd better be a good shot, make sure you don't miss, make sure you actually incapacitate the target, and also don't hurt someone else even worse.

If you're shooting to wound you shouldn't be shooting in the first place. Guns are always lethal weapons, and they should be treated like it.

 

[PopeReal]

Holy fuck the amount of people that I know that should be dead if fighting (or threatening to fight) is grounds for being killed.

 

[esms]

Kinda glad Philly (and PA) only have Castle Doctrine. If I'm being threatened that close to my house, I'll go back inside.

 

[M0nochromatic]

The guy wasn't even on his property! There's no way this is justifiable. A menacing appearance and shit talking aren't excuses for ending a life.

And he tried enticing him by opening his gate so he could shoot him? This is indefensible.

 

[CryptiK]

Thank god he had the gun for self defence. /s

 

[Guevara]

Usually I'm pretty anti-gun, but in this case I'm actually sympathetic.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Usually I'm pretty anti-gun, but in this case I'm actually sympathetic.

since when is killing someone for talking shit to you worthy of sympathy?

 

[Jest Chillin]

Some guy doesn't have to be on your property to beat the hell out of you. If you're on the sidewalk that doesn't give everyone the right to attack you while you have to run home to defend yourself.

If the guy was about to attack or in the process of attacking then yes he was a threat, especially after all lf the yelling and threats that he made.

One witness says the victim took two steps forward with his hands up. The Shooter claims the victim charged. The only account that doesn't appear to have something to gain from lying doesn't suggest an attack was imminent. More like the victim was taking steps forward but by all accounts was still a number of feet away.

On the contrary, it's absolutely ridiculous to see the world in such absolute terms.

Hypothetical. Dark alley. Young petite woman. Roided up jock. They're 10 feet apart. He's standing there talking how he's going to rape her in graphic detail. He starts advancing on her, and by your standard, she has no right to use the gun she has in her purse to defend her.

Clearly she doesn't have to reach for her gun as Batman will swoop in to save her because this hypothetical is straight out a 1940's comic book.

A regular man and a regular woman in an semi well lit alley.. she could easily brandish her gun and tell the guy to get lost rather than just firing on him.

Again, according to witnesses, he was not "standing outside," he was advancing on Kelvin. Do facts (as far as we know them) bother you?

Stop with the "advancing" garbage. Taking two steps towards someone does not indicate an imminent attack.

 

[Guevara]

since when is killing someone for talking shit to you worthy of sympathy?

It's the repeated threats of violence caught on tape. I didn't say the killing was justified, just that I get it.

 

[WanderingWind]

The guy opened his gate and tried to get Smith to step on his property so he could shoot him "legally." This isn't self-defense, this was gambling that the courts are so fucked up in Florida that he could kill a guy and get away with it because he was a fucking coward. And he gambled right. I mean, if it wasn't for that, I'd almost agree with

Uh the karate guy charged him with his gun drawn. If I say I don't want to fight, and then you say "no put the gun down let's settle this old school" fuck your Bruce lee ass. If you get close to me I would have done the same thing.

If it was really like this, I mean, you tell a guy you're not going to fight him and he insists, then he sort of deserves whatever the hell happens next. If a jacked UFC dude decided he just wanted to bully around some dude who was packing, we really wouldn't just expect him to take the ass whuppin'. Shit isn't like the movies, people can get beat to death easier than some seem to think. And Smith was a karate "expert," whatever that means.

But it doesn't seem like it went down like that.

 

[Freshmaker]

Does he have hands? Then he's not unarmed. I'm very much pro-gun control, anti-gun, etc. Hence why I don't own a gun. But I firmly believe that no one has any responsibility to risk their life or great physical harm to protect the person doing them that harm. If a person attacks another person, the victim has every right to prevent that harm. If they only have a knife, then they should be free to stab them in the eye. If they only have a gun, then they can shoot them.

I will never agree that a person has to accept real physical harm out of concern for an attacker's well being

This guy basically baited a trap then murdered the kid.

 

[reckless]

One witness says the victim took two steps forward with his hands up. The Shooter claims the victim charged. The only account that doesn't appear to have something to gain from lying doesn't suggest an attack was imminent. More like the victim was taking steps forward but by all accounts was still a number of feet away.


.

Like I said at the top of the page we don't know what actually happened during the shooting.

All of my responses were if the shooter is telling the truth but we don't know.

 

[CapHarlock]

The coming towards you part is.

It amazes me when people act like a fist fight isn't a life or death situation. Are you willing to bet your life that some random dude will stop punching you when you're defenseless? When they're in the heat of the moment filled with rage? Fuck that. Not to mention, dying is only the worst outcome. Paralysis, blindness, broken jaw, etc. You can take the highroad and get put in the hospital. I can't blame anyone for avoiding that.

It's nearly as bad as every nut who comes into a cop shooting thread saying, "Why didn't they aim for his arms or legs."


In this exact situation, maybe he provoked him, that should be a crime. Maybe he's lying about the guy charging. Who knows, the facts aren't exactly clear.




This really makes it any better? He needs to be within 10 feet, rather than 12?

I can't speak for others, but I am a coward. You start walking towards me and making me worried we are going to fight. In the same way that happened here, I would shoot you.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Like I said at the top of the page we don't know what actually happened during the shooting.

All of my responses were if the shooter is telling the truth but we don't know.

The moment The Shooter admits that he opened his gate "to entice" the victim onto his property (and "to entice" is quoted as being The Shooter's actual words)... then giving The Shooter the benefit of the doubt is out the window as far as I'm concerned. That alone shows that he welcomed a situation that would allow him to shoot the other man.

 

[Liamario]

Call the police??

 

[GaimeGuy]

I can't speak for others, but I am a coward. You start walking towards me and making me worried we are going to fight. In the same way that happened here, I would shoot you.

are you going to open the front gate and invite him in to throw down first, then shoot him before he even gets on your property?

This guy was looking for an excuse to kill someone. BY HIS OWN ADMISSION

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Clearly she doesn't have to reach for her gun as Batman will swoop in to save her because this hypothetical is straight out a 1940's comic book.

A regular man and a regular woman in an semi well lit alley.. she could easily brandish her gun and tell the guy to get lost rather than just firing on him.

It's called a hypothetical for a reason. So in that hypothetical, by your standard, the woman needs to rely on a fictional character to protect herself. Because apparently dark alleys don't exist or something in the real world.

In your hypothetical, the woman is allowed to only threaten deadly force until the male takes... well, whatever it is, it's certainly more than only two steps towards her. Two steps is like nothing, for all we know, the guy could just be wanting to give her some lemonade with two steps.

Stop with the "advancing" garbage. Taking two steps towards someone does not indicate an imminent attack.

Stop with pretending Smith didn't take two steps toward Kelvin.

And in this exact situation, the shooter most definitely did what he could "to entice" the other man to do something that would justify killing. You are brandishing a gun. Visually showing that you have a gun on you on your own property.. and you fear for your life because an unarmed man is standing outside of your property yelling? (my emp.)