• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Florida gun owner kills teenager who challenged him to fistfight; is acquitted

Status
Not open for further replies.

rob305

Member
The violence in Miami Gardens is fucking crazy. Young black kids getting shot every other week and no one is giving a fuck. I was actually there for one of they marches they had and it was tragic to see mothers cry over the kids they lost. Some were years ago too and still showed up, really fucked up and just all around sad.

Just Google Miami Gardens Gun Violence, all you need to know.

Also take your unfunny Florida jokes and stick them up your ungrateful asses.

Yeah every time theres a shooting in Miami lately it happens in Miami Gardens. I remember a couple of weeks ago they did a drive-by shooting mid day at a Basketball court and just sprayed the rounds all over the place. A bunch of kids who were just hanging out playing basketball got shot in the legs.
Reminds me of last summer in the grove:
map2.jpg
 
I honestly have no idea how you guys are arguing this. Dude clearly wanted to shoot him and was looking for a reason to.

The video I see shows the karate kid acting like a lunatic. If someone was yelling at me like that and I knew that he was a trained fighter, I'd be pretty damn worried too.
 
Why is the guy considered a gun owner if he possessed a firearm illegally? he didn't fill out any paperwork or get the gun registered to be considered a gun owner.
 
Why is the guy considered a gun owner if he possessed a firearm illegally? he didn't fill out any paperwork or get the gun registered to be considered a gun owner.

No such thing in Florida unless you're a felon. I can sell you my gun for 50 cents no background check because it's a private sale.
 
Because the other guy might have punched him so clearly his death was justified.

Posts like this are so obnoxious. For one, it downplays the danger of getting punched, even once, in the head. Single punches can kill people (and have many times over). Second, there's an assumption that the attacker is going to stop attacking once the threat is, in their mind, neutralized. The problem is that people don't always think rationally in the heat of the moment, and it's not hard to believe that someone might keep attacking someone who is clearly incapacitated. Especially when that person is as heated as the karate guy is in the video I saw.
 

Hex

Banned
It is true.
Florida:
State Requirements

Rifles and Shotguns
Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No
Registration of rifles and shotguns? No
Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No
Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No
Handguns

Permit to purchase handgun? No
Registration of handguns? No
Licensing of owners of handguns? No
Permit to carry handguns? Yes
Purchase and Possession:

No state permit is required to possess or purchase a rifle, shotgun or handgun.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
This headline pretty much sums up my view on guns: people are now being killed for things that used to result in fistfights in the past.

Now, regarding the story in the OP: the guy was defending himself...after he allegedly provoked a situation into a violent confrontation.

I guess the message here is that there are no consequences as long as a gun is used to end a dispute.
 

Dpp1978

Neo Member
Going only by the article linked, the words "entice him to enter the property" appear to be taken from the court papers filed by the prosecution. The prosecution obviously wants to frame the narrative in a manner most favourable to their position, so it is not surprising that a phrase like this would appear. Their version, and the defendant's motives in leaving the gate open, would be tested at trial.

In absence of this testing it is perhaps not wise to state the defendant enticed the victim into his property as if it were a matter of fact.

Self defence has a partially subjective test. It is the situation as the person raising the defence perceived it which is important. If the defendant can show he felt in imminent fear for his personal safety he satisfies the first part of the test. He then has to show that his response was objectively reasonable.

In this case the defendant was faced with an aggressor who was known to be proficient in martial arts. The victim also claimed to have a gun of his own (albeit not on his person at the time) the threat of which could, arguably, increase any fear of harm he felt. The aggressor threatened him with physical violence and the fact the verbal confrontation was protracted and heated only adds to this potential perceived threat.

In other words it is not unreasonable to assume that the defendant did in fact have enough fear, given the circumstances, to satisfy the first part of the test.

It is then a question as to whether his response was reasonable.

Under classic common law there was a duty to escape if it was possible. Castle doctrine removes that duty when on your own property, and as we all know "stand your ground" makes it all but moot.

With no duty to retreat, and being in fear for his personal safety, it seems that the shooting may well have been, at least legally, justified. Even without "stand your ground" it is possible castle doctrine still applies as he was on his own property. I don't know the case law which sets out the doctrine's limits.

That said I do believe "stand your ground" is a step too far. I'm fine with castle doctrine but stating that you never have to try to escape does seem to bring out the worst in people. In situations where things happen so fast you can't even look for a way to escape, "stand your ground" is unnecessary. If there is a situation where you could run, but were afraid you would not be able to escape, you can pre-emptively attack. But with "stand your ground" you don't even have to consider escape. You can, seemingly, attack at will.

And in a country with a significantly armed populus, that is dangerous.
 

rob305

Member
It is true.
Florida:
State Requirements

Rifles and Shotguns
Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No
Registration of rifles and shotguns? No
Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No
Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No
Handguns

Permit to purchase handgun? No
Registration of handguns? No
Licensing of owners of handguns? No
Permit to carry handguns? Yes
Purchase and Possession:

No state permit is required to possess or purchase a rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Yup. And to my surprise the 3 days cooling off period only applies to hand guns, not to rifles. Bought an AR-15 at Walmart yesterday, was in and out within 20 minutes. Expected having to return after 3 days to pick it up
 
Posts like this are so obnoxious. For one, it downplays the danger of getting punched, even once, in the head. Single punches can kill people (and have many times over). Second, there's an assumption that the attacker is going to stop attacking once the threat is, in their mind, neutralized. The problem is that people don't always think rationally in the heat of the moment, and it's not hard to believe that someone might keep attacking someone who is clearly incapacitated. Especially when that person is as heated as the karate guy is in the video I saw.

The other guy could have hurt him badly. Killed him even. But the confrontation went on for a long time and according to that news article there were breaks in between, so the guy should have called the police, not got a handgun from his friend so he could kill the other dude.
 
The other guy could have hurt him badly. Killed him even. But the confrontation went on for a long time and according to that news article there were breaks in between, so the guy should have called the police, not got a handgun from his friend so he could kill the other dude.

As a Miami native living in exile, it doesn't work that way. There's a culture down there for confrontation, backing off rarely happens. If he backed off he would have been called out as a bitch for years. Live there long enough and you too will see the extraordinary amount of shitheads who live there.
 

Hex

Banned
As a Miami native living in exile, it doesn't work that way. There's a culture down there for confrontation, backing off rarely happens. If he backed off he would have been called out as a bitch for years. Live there long enough and you too will see the extraordinary amount of shitheads who live there.

Oh nos!
He would have got called out as a bitch?
Avoiding that is totally worth killing somebody, what in the world was anyone else thinking.
Thank you for clarifying how silly thinking otherwise was.
Being called a bitch, that would be...wow....we can't have that.
 

Draft

Member
Killer should have called the cops, but I'm not too broken up about the acquittal. The Karate Kid seems like a violent jerkoff. I don't think he deserved to die, but it wasn't like he was minding his own business. He came to the killer's house looking to start trouble. Society doesn't operate by Double Dragon rules. No one is obligated to engage in honorable fisticuffs. FYI to those unaware, Americans are heavily armed, and often out of shape. Many of them would rather shoot an assailant than getting into a dust up and risk a coronary.
 

TheJLC

Member
Happens all the time in the US. Frankly, I don't see why people don't learn. Attack someone with a gun and you will get shot. Attack anyone and there is a possibility they can be carrying.
 

RefigeKru

Banned
Posts like this are so obnoxious. For one, it downplays the danger of getting punched, even once, in the head. Single punches can kill people (and have many times over). Second, there's an assumption that the attacker is going to stop attacking once the threat is, in their mind, neutralized. The problem is that people don't always think rationally in the heat of the moment, and it's not hard to believe that someone might keep attacking someone who is clearly incapacitated. Especially when that person is as heated as the karate guy is in the video I saw.

Rather than engage him on a similar level or figure manners to diffuse the situation he thought it wise to just skip all that random chance and possibility and end his life on the spot..

It's okay though guys the law has his back.
 
Neighbor said the man who was killed took two steps. The Shooter, who admitted that he opened the gate to his property "to entice" the victim, is the only one claiming the man charged.

And it wasn't much of charge considering the man fell to the sidewalk and never stepped foot on the shooters property.
QFT
 
As a Miami native living in exile, it doesn't work that way. There's a culture down there for confrontation, backing off rarely happens. If he backed off he would have been called out as a bitch for years. Live there long enough and you too will see the extraordinary amount of shitheads who live there.

Well, shooting someone to death is definitely preferable to being called a bitch. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

tkscz

Member
Obligitory.

Honestly not sure how to feel about this. I live in an area where this is somewhat normal, at least someone bringing a gun to a fist fight. However, never have I seen that shooter get acquitted. Damn it Florida.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
are you going to open the front gate and invite him in to throw down first, then shoot him before he even gets on your property?

This guy was looking for an excuse to kill someone. BY HIS OWN ADMISSION

This is basically the end of the story.

If the shooter had simply drawn his gun and shown it to the victim without pointing it at him as a means to avoid a physical confrontation (which would have been an acceptable way to do so in my opinion) and the victim had still approached the shooter on the shooter's own property shouting threats and barring fists, this would have been an easy acquittal.

The fact that the shooter practically invited the victim into entering his property with promises of a fist-fight but planned to shoot him all along really reminds me of the case involving the person who "baited" a robbery just to shoot the robber dead. Both should be convicted of at least second degree murder or possibly manslaughter.
 

jdouglas

Member
You know, I can't really imagine a scenario where pulling a gun out would be appropriate, unless he was literally on top of you punching your head into the concrete.

I think that there are definitely situations where pulling a gun to defend yourself is the best option, but this seems like a pretty clear case of murder...
 
The law is literally giving people the legal and moral authority to execute anyone with a volatile temper. I cant even begin to rap my head around how profoundly backwards it is.
Dont like your next door neighbour? Know he's a hothead? Get him loud and angry, entice him to come at you, then fucking shoot him in "self defense"

Florida gents, that bastion of decency and respect for human life.
 

Violet_0

Banned
In particular when you're not even on your own soil. lol
I checked up on this
stand-your-ground law states that an individual has no duty to retreat from any place they have lawful right to be and may use any level of force, including lethal, if they reasonably believe they face an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death.
so easy to abuse and misuse this law, terrible
 

Vyroxis

Banned
As a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment AND stand your ground laws, I think the guy should have been charged and found guilty. You don't gun someone down just because they challenge you to a fist fight.
 

zeemumu

Member
I checked up on this

so easy to abuse and misuse this law, terrible

They should really specify on the "threat of serious bodily harm" part, because if you take that law at face value, it means that if you're just an extremely paranoid person, you can shoot anyone for talking shit to you.

Weird how the shooter didn't just close the gate and walk away since the guy wasn't willing to actually go onto his property.
 
I like the framing of "gun owner" vs "teenager" when the ages are 20 and 19 respectively. I'm not commenting on any other aspect of this as I haven't had time to look at it extensively, just the language usage here is interesting to me.
 

Zeke

Member
I don't see how anyone with half a brain can call this self defense. This premeditated murder. The shooter was never afraid for his life he knew exactly what he wanted to do. If he was so fearful he would have taken his ass inside locked the door and called the cops. Or he would have gone inside and let it blow over. Instead he called a friend to bring him a gun, went back outside and decided to keep forcing the altercation. He even admitted he tried to entice the victim. That's not a man fearful for his life that's a coward who planned on murdering someone. Not only should he be charged with premeditated murder but his friend that provided him the gun should be charged with accessory to murder.
 

Tom Penny

Member
He didn't need to shoot him but I wouldn't go in the yard of a person flashing their gun that told me I got a motherfucking gun and I fucking shoot and kill you if you go in my yard.
 
Doesn't seem like anyone was in the right here. Both parties fucked up.

Gun owner seems to have been trying to start shit, then got shit, and then gave shit.
 
So if I want to legally kill someone, all I have to do is rent a house near a gymn in Florida, wait for menacing bodybuilder who's doing steroids, provoke him (could be easier with roid rage), let him chase me into my house (I do plenty of cardio he'd never catch me) and then shoot him while he's in the sidewalk.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
This is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXoggRLjcM

Another interesting note is that Smith claimed that he had a rifle and would bring it back around 4:45 in the video.

IDK how anyone can watch this and say the shooter was the one enticing karate kid to fight.

The karate kid literally says "I've got guns back at my house too" leaves, and then comes back to continue the confrontation. How some people can not see that as a reasonable threat of bodily harm is crazy.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
It's a bit odd to be told by so many that the shooting was unjustifiable when we're all commenting on the story that reported a judge (who presumably has more facts at his/her disposal than any of us,) found it to be justifiable. Not saying that judges are infallible, but I expect they know the law and the facts of the case better than most of us here.

For instance, I'm pretty confident that ElectricKaibutsu's theory that any killing of an unarmed person is murder is wildly incorrect.

Florida judges also thought that shooting a guy in his car because his radio was too loud was fine.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
They should really specify on the "threat of serious bodily harm" part, because if you take that law at face value, it means that if you're just an extremely paranoid person, you can shoot anyone for talking shit to you.

This isn't how it works. The killer's belief must be objectively reasonable in addition to being subjectively felt. If the killer claims to have felt threatened, but a jury (or judge) concludes that a "reasonable person" would not have, then the killer's self-defense claim fails.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom