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[akira28]

If you're shooting to wound you shouldn't be shooting in the first place. Guns are always lethal weapons, and they should be treated like it.

blah blah blah, go worship in your cult of the gun.

To me the gun is a sexy hammer type chemical reaction small explosive miracle of physics. The culmination of human development, but I don't imagine it's any worse or better than it is. You can use a gun for anything you can put your mind to, and if I say you can shoot to wound, you can shoot someone and not kill them.

people are so afraid of guns, ironically the people most afraid of them are probably the people holding them. People just freak out when *they're* armed.

 

[Abounder]

Call the police??

Apparently some neighbors even encouraged the fight:

The judge also noted that several neighbors “had the opportunity to stop this madness. But rather than intervening to end the violent encounter, the continued to encourage the young men to fight. … During this time, no one called the police. No one said stop!”

---

According to prosecutors’ account, a neighbor implored Kinsey: “Take it to the old school. He just want to fight. Put down your gun and fight like a man.”


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...ami-gardens/article7438982.html#storylink=cpy

 

[Coolwhip]

Holy fuck the amount of people that I know that should be dead if fighting (or threatening to fight) is grounds for being killed.

Yeah cowboy GAF loves to jump to conclusions.

 

[Wiktor]

What if you don't have a gun? You gunna stab him? Or take the ass whoopin and move on?

Yes then stab him. Nobody has obligation to get beaten up and risk his life just to save agressor.

If you have a gun and point it at attacker he's likely to back down. If you're poiting it at him, warning him to back off and he still comes at you then sure, I don't see anything wrong with shooting.

There are situations when you are withing your rights to shoot unarmed man. Now I'm not saying this was one of those cases, but whether it is nor not doesn't mean the whole idea is unsound.

 

[Suikoguy]

Once he opened that gate, basically egging him on to come onto his property, it was murder.

 

[Timeaisis]

I like how we're all judging this based on that sliver of a story we got.

 

[GaimeGuy]

It's called a hypothetical for a reason. So in that hypothetical, by your standard, the woman needs to rely on a fictional character to protect herself. Because apparently dark alleys don't exist or something in the real world.

In your hypothetical, the woman is allowed to only threaten deadly force until the male takes... well, whatever it is, it's certainly more than only two steps towards her. Two steps is like nothing, for all we know, the guy could just be wanting to give her some lemonade with two steps.


Stop with pretending Smith didn't take two steps toward Kelvin.

Kelvin was enticing smith onto his property in order to shoot him (Didn't even wait until he was on his property to shoot him, even).

Let me phrase that another way
Before Smith took steps towards Kelvin, Kelvin tried to encourage Smith to put Kelvin into a "dangerous" situation where Kelvin would be "forced" to use his weapon. Can you really say that Kelvin was acting in self-defense? Or was he acting with malice and with ill-intent, with complete disregard for Smith's life? The enticing of Smith proves the latter

They were both idiots. One was looking to throw down. The other was looking to kill. Neither is acceptable. The latter is murder.

 

[boiled goose]

not justifying the man's actions are all. But this is one example of why you never resort to violence. Regardless of the outcome of justice you are still dead at the end of the day.

once you push someone, they can punch, once they punch you can bite, once you bite they can choke, once they choke you can stab, once you stab they can shoot.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Yeah cowboy GAF loves to jump to conclusions.

It's funny, because even in cowboy movies it's murder if the person shot isn't armed.

 

[Any Questions]

Shame that someone is dead. And for no real reason which makes sense

 

[Jest Chillin]

It's called a hypothetical for a reason. So in that hypothetical, by your standard, the woman needs to rely on a fictional character to protect herself. Because apparently dark alleys don't exist or something in the real world.

In your hypothetical, the woman is allowed to only threaten deadly force until the male takes... well, whatever it is, it's certainly more than only two steps towards her. Two steps is like nothing, for all we know, the guy could just be wanting to give her some lemonade with two steps.

A good hypothetical does not stretch to the fanciful in order to achieve the point. You felt the need for your hypothetical to have a "roided out jock" threatening to rape a "petite young woman" in a "dark alley." Beyond over the top imagery to try to force your desired outcome.

The threat of deadly force is typically enough to dissuade a potential attacker. Maybe next time instead of just roided out, your hypothetical attacker should be whacked out on crazy bath salts too? Just so that a threat wouldn't feasible. I mean it's a hypthetical so we may as well make every variable lead to only one possible outcome right?

A threat is a threat and it can certainly scare someone but deadly force should not be used unless there is an actual attack or something that indicates a lethal threat, such as a weapon.

"I'm going to fuck you up" being said by an unarmed man 15ft away warrants a different response to "I'm going to fuck you up" being said by a man wielding a large knife and running at you.

Stop with pretending Smith didn't take two steps toward Kelvin.

Kinsey is not a Gunslinger in the Old West. If he fired before Smith had the chance to so much as swing, that means he was anticipating firing. In order for him to anticipate firing and for it to be legal as you're suggesting.. he would have had to feel threatened before those two steps were made. Which means he would have been standing there brandishing a weapon while being scared of a man with no weapons standing outside of his property, simply because he was yelling.

Is there anything else that I've said that you're misunderstanding and need for me to clarify?

 

[Squirrel Killer]

It's a bit odd to be told by so many that the shooting was unjustifiable when we're all commenting on the story that reported a judge (who presumably has more facts at his/her disposal than any of us,) found it to be justifiable. Not saying that judges are infallible, but I expect they know the law and the facts of the case better than most of us here.

For instance, I'm pretty confident that ElectricKaibutsu's theory that any killing of an unarmed person is murder is wildly incorrect.

 

[Flo_Evans]

A good hypothetical does not stretch to the fanciful in order to achieve the point. You felt the need for your hypothetical to have a "roided out jock" threatening to rape a "petite young woman" in a "dark alley." Beyond over the top imagery to try to force your desired outcome.

The threat of deadly force is typically enough to dissuade a potential attacker. Maybe next time instead of just roided out, your hypothetical attacker should be whacked out on crazy bath salts too? Just so that a threat wouldn't feasible. I mean it's a hypthetical so we may as well make every variable lead to only one possible outcome right?

A threat is a threat and it can certainly scare someone but deadly force should not be used unless there is an actual attack or something that indicates a lethal threat, such as a weapon.

"I'm going to fuck you up" being said by an unarmed man 15ft away warrants a different response to "I'm going to fuck you up" being said by a man wielding a large knife and running at you.




Kinsey is not a Gunslinger in the Old West. If he fired before Smith had the chance to so much as swing, that means he was anticipating firing. In order for him to anticipate firing and for it to be legal as you're suggesting.. he would have had to feel threatened before those two steps were made. Which means he would have been standing there brandishing a weapon while being scared of a man with no weapons standing outside of his property, simply because he was yelling.

Is there anything else that I've said that you're misunderstanding and need for me to clarify?

The threat of deadly force didn't dissuade smith from a potential attack though.

Look if I have a gun and tell you I will shoot you and you still keep walking towards me I'm just going to have to assume you are fucking nuts. Sorry not going to wait for your 1st swing, potentially lose control of my weapon and die for your crazy ass.

And lol at your CSI logic. Of course he anticipated firing. He had a fucking crazy guy threatening him.

 

[Suikoguy]

The threat of deadly force didn't dissuade smith from a potential attack though.

Look if I have a gun and tell you I will shoot you and you still keep walking towards me I'm just going to have to assume you are fucking nuts. Sorry not going to wait for your 1st swing, potentially lose control of my weapon and die for your crazy ass.

And lol at your CSI logic. Of course he anticipated firing. He had a fucking crazy guy threatening him.

If you had a gun, why would you open a gate to your property, unless you wanted to shoot someone?

 

[GaimeGuy]

The threat of deadly force didn't dissuade smith from a potential attack though.

Look if I have a gun and tell you I will shoot you and you still keep walking towards me I'm just going to have to assume you are fucking nuts. Sorry not going to wait for your 1st swing, potentially lose control of my weapon and die for your crazy ass.

And lol at your CSI logic. Of course he anticipated firing. He had a fucking crazy guy threatening him.

You are missing the point where he "enticed him" onto his property. By his actions, and by his own admission to the courts.

That makes it murder, in my view.

 

[Suikoguy]

Yes, it's so easy to legally commit murder if the judge's ruling stands.

Got someone you want to get rid of? Just piss them off, then invite them onto your property, then shoot them in "fear". After all it's your word against the dead person.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Land of the free and the home of the coward.

 

[Jest Chillin]

The threat of deadly force didn't dissuade smith from a potential attack though.

Smith never attacked.

Look if I have a gun and tell you I will shoot you and you still keep walking towards me I'm just going to have to assume you are fucking nuts. Sorry not going to wait for your 1st swing, potentially lose control of my weapon and die for your crazy ass.

Distance between the two of them and the speed of movement matters. However up to that point nothing but words were exchanged.

And lol at your CSI logic. Of course he anticipated firing. He had a fucking crazy guy threatening him.

He called a friend and had him bring over a gun. Once he got the gun he opened the gate and waited for Smith to return because he knew he'd return as they were neighbors. After Smith left multiple times Kinsey stayed in his yard, with his gate open, and continued to interact with Smith whenever Smith would walk by.

This isn't self defense. Kinsey wanted to shoot Smith and tried his best to be in a situation where he could get away with it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Yes, it's so easy to legally commit murder if the judge's ruling stands.

Got someone you want to get rid of? Just piss them off, then invite them onto your property, then shoot them in "fear". After all it's your word against the dead person.

It's not even your word against the dead person.

This guy admitted everything - he even used the word "entice" ffs. He wanted a dangerous situation. He wanted a "kill or be killed" situation.

It's not acceptable for you to seek out an opportunity to commit homicide. It just isn't. Regardless of what the courts rule. Our system is fucked up and has lost sight of this fact. At least, in parts of the country.

 

[xenist]

What the fuck kind of a fucking thing is this? Fucking seriously.

"He was stronger/bigger/younger" is a valid fucking excuse for fucking shooting people? I'm really glad I don't live in a common law country where every two bit judge can do whatever he pleases.

 

[Siegcram]

What the fuck kind of a fucking thing is this? Fucking seriously.

"He was stronger/bigger/younger" is a valid fucking excuse for fucking shooting people?

Well he was yelling.

 

[Aeriscloud]

And you all thought the Old West was dead.

 

[Flo_Evans]

You are missing the point where he "enticed him" onto his property. By his actions, and by his own admission to the courts.

That makes it murder, in my view.

I'm not missing it, its irrelevant. He admited he opened the gate to the courts and they dismissed the charges. What does that tell you?

 

[Jawbreaker]

 

[Javaman]

Disparity of force laws strike again. I'm not surprised at the ruling. If the shooter knew of the teen's training he was justified to shoot if he thought he was at risk of severe injury or death. In a similar way that old ladies can use deadly force against an unarmed but physically stronger attacker.

If he was provoking him though, stand your ground shouldn't protect him.

 

[M0nochromatic]

And you all thought the Old West was dead.

That's insulting to the Old West. They would have hanged anyone who shot an unarmed individual that wasn't on the shooter's property.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I'm not missing it, its irrelevant. He admited he opened the gate to the courts and they dismissed the charges. What does that tell you?

it's not irrelevant. It turns his actions from defensive into aggressive in nature.

What part of calling a friend over with a gun and enticing a neighbor onto your property for a scuffle is defensive? It's justifiable self-defense that the courts need to be acquitting, not homicide via lead poisoning

 

[Kinyou]

If only karate guy had a gun. That's how these things work in America, right?

When everyone has a gun then no more unarmed teens will be shot. Total win situation

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

It's a bit odd to be told by so many that the shooting was unjustifiable when we're all commenting on the story that reported a judge (who presumably has more facts at his/her disposal than any of us,) found it to be justifiable. Not saying that judges are infallible, but I expect they know the law and the facts of the case better than most of us here.

For instance, I'm pretty confident that ElectricKaibutsu's theory that any killing of an unarmed person is murder is wildly incorrect.

My... theory? You're reading into my cowboy movie comparison a little too literally.

In reply to the rest of your post, what are we supposed to do besides discuss the facts we are given? You're right, we're not judges and this is not a courtroom. From the evidence I see, the shooter is a murderer. If I was a judge and had different info available to me my opinion could change, sure. But unfortunately for us poor discussion forum folk, we don't have access to this hypothetical evidence that absolves the shooter.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I see no justification for shooting that teen.

Also remember to focus on the things that matter in life, none of which is your ego.

 

[Siegcram]

I'm not missing it, its irrelevant. He admited he opened the gate to the courts and they dismissed the charges. What does that tell you?

That your justice system is fucked when it comes to personal responsibility.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Kinsey is not a Gunslinger in the Old West. If he fired before Smith had the chance to so much as swing, that means he was anticipating firing. In order for him to anticipate firing and for it to be legal as you're suggesting.. he would have had to feel threatened before those two steps were made. Which means he would have been standing there brandishing a weapon while being scared of a man with no weapons standing outside of his property, simply because he was yelling.

But I thought the "threat of deadly force is typically enough to dissuade a potential attacker?" And why do gunslingers come in to this at all, it doesn't sound like Kelvin had the gun holstered or anything.

Perhaps - and this is just conjecture, I'll grant you - Kelvin brandished the threat of deadly force thinking that it would be enough to dissuade/scare off Smith from yelling threats and profanity at him. It's not really all that surprising that if Kelvin is threatening to use deadly force that he's anticipating using deadly force. It's like I tell my wife, if you're going to threaten to punish the kids, you have to be prepared to follow through.

Also, just a note on the opening of the gate to entice Smith. The timeline according to the article is that Smith walked by Kelvin's yard and someone said something to Smith, they argue, Smith leaves, Kelvin gets a gun and opens the gate. Smith comes back, they argue some more (the argument on video,) Smith leaves again. Smith comes back again. That is to say, Smith had ample opportunity to resist the bait since he had already done so and returned of his own free will.

 

[Suikoguy]

But I thought the "threat of deadly force is typically enough to dissuade a potential attacker?" And why do gunslingers come in to this at all, it doesn't sound like Kelvin had the gun holstered or anything.

Perhaps - and this is just conjecture, I'll grant you - Kelvin brandished the threat of deadly force thinking that it would be enough to dissuade/scare off Smith from yelling threats and profanity at him. It's not really all that surprising that if Kelvin is threatening to use deadly force that he's anticipating using deadly force. It's like I tell my wife, if you're going to threaten to punish the kids, you have to be prepared to follow through.

Also, just a note on the opening of the gate to entice Smith. The timeline according to the article is that Smith walked by Kelvin's yard and someone said something to Smith, they argue, Smith leaves, Kelvin gets a gun and opens the gate. Smith comes back, they argue some more (the argument on video,) Smith leaves again. Smith comes back again. That is to say, Smith had ample opportunity to resist the bait since he had already done so and returned of his own free will.

So, it is now the responsibility of the person being killed in self defense to resist bait?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

another pussy with a gun.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

If you are a trained fighter you are considered a deadly weapon by law I believe. Not surprised at the ruling tbh.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

What ever happened to just taking your ass whooping, collecting that L and keeping it moving?

 

[Jest Chillin]

But I thought the "threat of deadly force is typically enough to dissuade a potential attacker?" And why do gunslingers come in to this at all, it doesn't sound like Kelvin had the gun holstered or anything.

Smith never attacked. The most that can be said is that maybe he was going to because he took two steps forward but that can not be proven. My point is, Kinsey is not trained to react at a moments notice to a sudden threat the way old west gunslingers are described to be in fabled stories. To react that quickly, he had to expect to use the weapon.

Perhaps - and this is just conjecture, I'll grant you - Kelvin brandished the threat of deadly force thinking that it would be enough to dissuade/scare off Smith from yelling threats and profanity at him. It's not really all that surprising that if Kelvin is threatening to use deadly force that he's anticipating using deadly force. It's like I tell my wife, if you're going to threaten to punish the kids, you have to be prepared to follow through.


Also, just a note on the opening of the gate to entice Smith. The timeline according to the article is that Smith walked by Kelvin's yard and someone said something to Smith, they argue, Smith leaves, Kelvin gets a gun and opens the gate. Smith comes back, they argue some more (the argument on video,) Smith leaves again. Smith comes back again. That is to say, Smith had ample opportunity to resist the bait since he had already done so and returned of his own free will.

He was armed as early as the second confrontation, which is the one that appears on the video in the article. That means Smith leaves and Kinsey chose to stay armed, keep his gate open, and stay in his front yard, despite the threat having gone. If Kinsey felt threatened, it is not unreasonable for him to move to a safer location rather than waiting for the possibility of another confrontation. The logic doesn't follow that he was trying to dissuade or avoid a confrontation but chose to not only stay where confrontation was sure to occur but improve the odds of confrontation by opening his gate and walking outside of it (which is shown on the video). It doesn't work. The only thing that follows any kind of logical consistency is that Kinsey wanted to a confrontation to occur that would enable him to shoot Smith.

And Smith was bound to return eventually as the two were neighbors. Smith had to pass by Kinsey's house to travel to and from other locations.

 

[Flo_Evans]

it's not irrelevant. It turns his actions from defensive into aggressive in nature.

What part of calling a friend over with a gun and enticing a neighbor onto your property for a scuffle is defensive? It's justifiable self-defense that the courts need to be acquitting, not homicide via lead poisoning

So the karate guy was defending himself against an aggressor in your mind?

How is calling a buddy to bring you a gun because someone is threating you not defensive?

You keep claiming opening the gate was an agressive move but it's clearly not, and even if it was it happened long before the final confrontation and would not mean that the shooter had waived his right to self defense.

 

[Jawbreaker]

What ever happened to just taking your ass whooping, collecting that L and keeping it moving?

What ever happened to being a decent human being and refraining from physically/verbally assaulting others (threatening or otherwise), especially those weaker than you? As much as I hate the gun being something to resort to, I can at least understand why a person would feel threatened enough in such a situation to want to open fire. You can't always rely on cops or on the aggressor to have enough restraint not to seriously injure or even kill you. Worst comes to worst, I'm going to do everything possible to protect myself.

 

[Jest Chillin]

So the karate guy was defending himself against an aggressor in your mind?

How is calling a buddy to bring you a gun because someone is threating you not defensive?

You keep claiming opening the gate was an agressive move but it's clearly not, and even if it was it happened long before the final confrontation and would not mean that the shooter had waived his right to self defense.

Bringing a gun to a fist fight is literally a step in escalating the situation. Happening to have a gun on him to begin with would be different. However he had no gun and rather than choosing the more simple defensive move of just.. going inside. He chose to call a friend to bring over a weapon.

And no one is claiming that opening the gate is an agressive move. Kinsey, The Shooter, admitted that he did it to entice Smith. He admitted to trying to bait Smith into stepping onto his property.

 

[Siegcram]

What ever happened to being a decent human being and refraining from physically assaulting others (threatening or otherwise), especially those weaker than you?

That wasn't really a thing to begin with. Like, ever.

 

[Jawbreaker]

That wasn't really a thing to begin with. Like, ever.

I was mocking the user's comment with an equally asinine statement. (However, non-violence will never be something we shouldn't strive for.) Being submissive and taking a beating from some shithead when you have a tool that can deter potential serious injuries or even death seems foolish.

 

[Siegcram]

I was mocking the user's comment with an equally asinine statement. (However, non-violence will never be something we shouldn't strive for.)

Gotcha.

 

[Always-honest]

aahahahaha those savage blacks amirite

Ugh... This says more about you than about the actual issue at hand i'm afraid.

 

[ZackieChan]

This sucks but I do think they're right to a degree. Pretty sure my sensei had to get registered or something because he's a black belt and could be lethal if provoked.

Your sensei is a bullshitter.

There is no such registry.

 

[akira28]

What ever happened to just taking your ass whooping, collecting that L and keeping it moving?

I'm not taking any ass whoopings from random dudes just for reasons. I'm taking my gun, getting in my car, and leaving. The guy has a gun? You leave him alone. You literally leave his vicinity. you don't challenge him to a fist fight.

 

[jerd]

What ever happened to being a decent human being and refraining from physically/verbally assaulting others (threatening or otherwise), especially those weaker than you? As much as I hate the gun being something to resort to, I can at least understand why a person would feel threatened enough in such a situation to want to open fire. You can't always rely on cops or on the aggressor to have enough restraint not to seriously injure or even kill you. Worst comes to worst, I'm going to do everything possible to protect myself.

the teen was unarmed, challenging Kinsey to an “old-school” fistfight only after being repeatedly provoked.

OP says shooter was provoking Tyrone

 

[Big-E]

I don't know why anyone would want to fight in America. It is statistically impossible to have a fight between two people and not have someone pull a gun out.

 

[Lonestar]

What ever happened to just taking your ass whooping, collecting that L and keeping it moving?

Just googled "man dies from punch" and saw way more results than I thought.

fbi seems to show a downward trend in homicides by "personal weapons" I.e. Fists/feet/pushing

Down to 678 in 2012!

Letting someone get you into a fistfight is not a good idea, especially if you aren't ready for it.

But I still imagine the guy should have gun charges against him, if he's using someone else's gun.

 

[Bollocks]

...why the G/A/F? The gun restrictions are so tight in Germany and Australia that anyone could have guessed it was Florida.

For people who were educated outside of America, but for Americans the question's not that easy