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[jerd]

Moments later, Kinsey said, he called a friend, who brought him a handgun, then opened the house’s gate “to entice Smith to enter his property.”

I honestly have no idea how you guys are arguing this. Dude clearly wanted to shoot him and was looking for a reason to.

 

[akira28]

Your sensei is a bullshitter.

There is no such registry.

apparently there isn't some need to register, it all depends on the local laws. In California, if you have martial arts training and can be argued that you can cause great bodily harm then your assaulting them could be considered blah blah blah with a deadly weapon.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Unfortunate and sad.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I honestly have no idea how you guys are arguing this. Dude clearly wanted to shoot him and was looking for a reason to.

Yep. I wasn't there, but it sounds like murder to me. The guy with the gun was on his own property and it sounds like he had enough time to walk inside his home, lock the door, and call the police.

 

[MarkMclovin]

That Stand your ground law is fucking nuts. It's clearly giving people a way to kill someone.

 

[Zukuu]

That Stand your ground law is fucking nuts. It's clearly giving people a way to kill someone.

In particular when you're not even on your own soil. lol

 

[Jawbreaker]

OP says shooter was provoking Tyrone

From my understanding, the shooter made some sort of comment, which is what set off Smith. I see no indication that the shooter was looking to start a fist fight or escalate things beyond words. Smith decided to take things a step further and come at Kinsey with fists at the ready after a violent verbal barrage. Given Smith's "Karate Kid" background and willingness to attack Kinsey even while he was brandishing a gun, it's safe to say he felt sufficiently threatened.

Of course, it's possible that Smith wasn't going to actually do anything and was simply testing Kinsey's trigger finger (foolish, I know), but unfortunately, we'll never know now which is why I also have trouble justifying the use of deadly force. It's conflicting, to be sure. Ultimately, I feel like if I'm in a similar situation where I'm being verbally threatened by someone who's much stronger and apparently willing to assault me on my own property, I'm going to do what I can to protect myself.

 

[jerd]

From my understanding, the shooter made some sort of comment, which is what set off Smith. I see no indication that the shooter was looking to start a fist fight or escalate things beyond words. Smith decided to take things a step further and come at Kinsey with fists at the ready after a violent verbal barrage. Given Smith's "Karate Kid" background and willingness to attack Kinsey even while he was brandishing a gun, it's safe to say he felt sufficiently threatened.

The week before the shooting, he complained to his grandmother that Kinsey and his friends had been heckling him as he walked by on his way to the park.

“He wasn’t a person who liked to argue with people,” Hill said. “He said, ‘There’s these boys always bothering me.’”

On Aug. 24, 2013, Smith was walking past Kinsey’s home, where he was hanging out with a pal when somebody said something “vulgar” to him. Whatever the comment, it set Smith off and he “prodded the defendant to exit his property and fight him,” prosecutor Denise Georges wrote in a court filing.

So to escalate from a fight to a murder is ok, but from vulgar words and harassment to a fight is not? What?

 

[Spinluck]

The violence in Miami Gardens is fucking crazy. Young black kids getting shot every other week and no one is giving a fuck. I was actually there for one of they marches they had and it was tragic to see mothers cry over the kids they lost. Some were years ago too and still showed up, really fucked up and just all around sad.

Just Google Miami Gardens Gun Violence, all you need to know.

Also take your unfunny Florida jokes and stick them up your ungrateful asses.

 

[Ikael]

"Stand your ground" laws, the closest thing to "license to shoot at scary" that ever was. We're going to keep having cases like these until these imbecile pieces of horrible legislation gets rolled back.

 

[Jawbreaker]

So to escalate from a fight to a murder is ok, but from vulgar words and harassment to a fight is not? What?

There's a difference between heckling someone and threatening to assault them, then eventually seeming like you're about to act on it. It's similar to how saying you wish someone were dead isn't something you can prosecute a person for, while stating you're going to kill them is.

To be clear, I think both made mistakes and Kinsey should have never heckled in the first place as that's a shitty thing to do. However, watching the video, Smith made it very clear that he wanted to seriously hurt Kinsey (violently so) and eventually, appears to have decided he was going to act on it which led to the unfortunate end. It was Smith who escalated the situation into the realm of violence despite Kinsey wanting to remain on his property/avoid a fist fight. After that point, Kinsey apparently challenges Smith to act on his words in the heat of the moment, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[GaimeGuy]

So the karate guy was defending himself against an aggressor in your mind?

No

You keep claiming opening the gate was an agressive move but it's clearly not, and even if it was it happened long before the final confrontation and would not mean that the shooter had waived his right to self defense.

Opening your gate isn't an aggressive move in and of itself, but enticing someone onto your property so you can shoot them is not responsible or justifiable activity. Trying to set up the cirumstances so you can shoot someone dead is aggressive because it's done with malice and ill-intent towards others, where shooting someone is the end-goal. If you kill someone after you make attempts to entice them onto your property specifically so you can shoot them, that's not self-defense. That's murder.

 

[Flo_Evans]

No



Opening your gate isn't an aggressive move in and of itself, but enticing someone onto your property so you can shoot them is not responsible or justifiable activity. Trying to set up the cirumstances so you can shoot someone dead is aggressive because it's done with malice and ill-intent towards others, where shooting someone is the end-goal. If you kill someone after you make attempts to entice them onto your property specifically so you can shoot them, that's not self-defense. That's murder.

Look I don't know about you but someone holding a gun standing in thier front yard is not an invitation to me.

Trying to set up a fight so you can beat some guys ass is done with malice and ill intent.

Regardless of who did what or started shit earlier in the day you do not waive your right to self defense. It is not murder to say I will shoot if you attack me.

 

[Phat Michael]

hate these fucking cowards with guns. Everything is escalated nowadays and it's disgusting. If a fight has to happen then go in there and take your beating - avoid it if possible but bringing a gun for little shit like this? fucking ridiculous.

Where we grew up, fights happened often and you gained the respect of the other guy for showing up or giving as good as you got. Now one pussy brings a gun and shoots someone and he is let free? What a coward.

 

[Valnen]

hate these fucking cowards with guns. Everything is escalated nowadays and it's disgusting. If a fight has to happen then go in there and take your beating - avoid it if possible but bringing a gun for little shit like this? fucking ridiculous.

Where we grew up, fights happened often and you gained the respect of the other guy for showing up or giving as good as you got. Now one pussy brings a gun and shoots someone and he is let free? What a coward.

There's nothing respectable about fighting. There is no "honor" in "taking your beating". Getting beat up doesn't make you special, it makes you a victim.

I can't afford a gun, but if anyone tries to beat me up you bet I'll use any means necessary to defend myself without giving a shit about the person trying to hurt me.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Florida continues to teach people how to get away with murder.

 

[Ensirius]

I honestly have no idea how you guys are arguing this. Dude clearly wanted to shoot him and was looking for a reason to.

There is no way this cannot be seen as murder.

 

[Chozolore]

?

Apparently this scene was meant to be a big sword fight and as both actors were sick that day, they went with this.

 

[ninjabat]

In hajime no ippo its illegal for boxers to fight outside a ring because trained fists are seen as weapons in the eyes of the law. I wonder if something like that is applicable to this situation if the karate kid had the intention of seriously harming the guy with the gun?

 

[neorej]

Back in my days, if someone wanted to punch you, you punched first, you punched hard. Or in my case, I kicked first, and I kick brutally hard.

 

[Angelus Errare]

There is no way this cannot be seen as murder.

Yet unfortunately we have people in this very thread doing hilarious mental decathlons to justify it.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Teach kids how to defend themselves from bullies..gets shot by a bully with a gun. Yup..sounds like the shithole I grew up in..good job, judge and giant pussy that can't just throw hands..

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Opening your gate isn't an aggressive move in and of itself, but enticing someone onto your property so you can shoot them is not responsible or justifiable activity. Trying to set up the cirumstances so you can shoot someone dead is aggressive because it's done with malice and ill-intent towards others, where shooting someone is the end-goal. If you kill someone after you make attempts to entice them onto your property specifically so you can shoot them, that's not self-defense. That's murder.

It's clear that Smith wanted to harm Kinsey. But instead of wanting to harm him with his fists, let's saySmith came back with a gun. Would you say that Kinsey would be justified in using deadly force? Nothing changed except the method in which Smith wanted to harm Kinsey.

The intent of the leaving the gate open by Kinsey is nowhere comparable to the (perceived) intent that Smith had in wanting to harm Kinsey, imo

 

[WanderingWind]

It's clear that Smith wanted to harm Kinsey. But instead of wanting to harm him with his fists, let's saySmith came back with a gun. Would you say that Kinsey would be justified in using deadly force? Nothing changed except the method in which Smith wanted to harm Kinsey.

The intent of the leaving the gate open by Kinsey is nowhere comparable to the (perceived) intent that Smith had in wanting to harm Kinsey, imo

How silly. What if he came back with a bazooka? Would that change anything? A localized nuclear device? What about two ping pong paddles, but no ball? A trash bag filled with second hand smoke? What then? Does that change anything?

 

[BlitzerRadic]

How silly. What if he came back with a bazooka? Would that change anything? A localized nuclear device? What about two ping pong paddles, but no ball? A trash bag filled with second hand smoke? What then? Does that change anything?

It appears you're trying to be sarcastic but you're proving my point. The intent to harm was there. Just because he was unarmed doesnt mean the threat level wasn't the same as someone with a gun. Leaving the gate open to entice is irrelevant because now it's all about self defense.

 

[Chariot]

Just because he was unarmed doesnt mean the threat level wasn't the same as someone with a gun.

???

 

[Currygan]

There's nothing respectable about fighting. There is no "honor" in "taking your beating". Getting beat up doesn't make you special, it makes you a victim.

I can't afford a gun, but if anyone tries to beat me up you bet I'll use any means necessary to defend myself without giving a shit about the person trying to hurt me.

then you probably have anger issues

you would straight up kill someone who is gonna punch you in the face? are you goddamned serious?

 

[LostCaress]

It's clear that Smith wanted to harm Kinsey. But instead of wanting to harm him with his fists, let's saySmith came back with a gun. Would you say that Kinsey would be justified in using deadly force? Nothing changed except the method in which Smith wanted to harm Kinsey.

The intent of the leaving the gate open by Kinsey is nowhere comparable to the (perceived) intent that Smith had in wanting to harm Kinsey, imo

It changes a lot, because going back to get a gun is taking more steps to show that you want to cause harm. As a martial artist he poses an extra risk, but he can't actually remove that threat by removing his arms.

 

[Shanlei91]

???

Let me introduce you to the gun show.

 

[WanderingWind]

It appears you're trying to be sarcastic but you're proving my point. The intent to harm was there. Just because he was unarmed doesnt mean the threat level wasn't the same as someone with a gun. Leaving the gate open to entice is irrelevant because now it's all about self defense.

I worry that you honestly believe that proved some sort of point in your favor. It does not. It points out how ridiculous your position is. You cannot change an entire situation and use the completely different scenario as a proof source for the real event being discussed. Reality does not work based on whatever crazy scenarios we can concoct on the internet.

Yes, if he was being threatened with a gun that changes everything about the situation, the legality of the situation and the moral framing of the end result. There is no productive argument that can come from pretending that a man without a gun is the same level of threat as a man with a gun. You do not understand guns or threat levels if you believe the different, full stop. For a bit of understanding on that point, perhaps ask yourself why armies go to war with guns and not kung-fu.

 

[Siegcram]

It appears you're trying to be sarcastic but you're proving my point. The intent to harm was there. Just because he was unarmed doesnt mean the threat level wasn't the same as someone with a gun. Leaving the gate open to entice is irrelevant because now it's all about self defense.

So this guy was literally the hulk? Otherwise this makes no fucking sense.

 

[theignoramus]

What ever happened to being a decent human being and refraining from physically/verbally assaulting others (threatening or otherwise), especially those weaker than you? As much as I hate the gun being something to resort to, I can at least understand why a person would feel threatened enough in such a situation to want to open fire. You can't always rely on cops or on the aggressor to have enough restraint not to seriously injure or even kill you. Worst comes to worst, I'm going to do everything possible to protect myself.

The shooter was a coward and no amount of mental gymnastics change that. He acted with intent to shoot the kid by enticing the boy to come at him.

 

[Easy_D]

Why not just knee cap him? Not saying I condone what happened, but why is everyone so intent on kill shots?

I don't actually have any gun training so maybe that is a hard shot.

Hell why not just shoot a warning shot? I'd get pretty freaked out if the gun turned out to be loaded with bullets and gtfo.

 

[Africanus]

My mind is very conflicted on this case. On the one part, the man shot an unarmed person who was a few feet from his property. On the other, this person had multiple opportunities to leave the scene, with knowledge that a person had a gun that they might potentially use. And he did leave it too. Among threats of spilling Kinley's blood in the streets. The judge's ruling further heightens this dilemma. All I think of is how many poor souls wish they had advanced notice to leave an area with a gunman.

 

[endre]

Hell why not just shoot a warning shot? I'd get pretty freaked out if the gun turned out to be loaded with bullets and gtfo.

I might be very wrong here, but from what I read on GAF and IIRC, warning shots are prohibited.

 

[Platy]

It's a game where we try to guess the location of a messed up story. G is for Germany, A for Australia, and F for Florida.

This always sounded weird to me ... country, country, state.

You don't want to say that all the messed up stories takes place in the United States =P

 

[theignoramus]

In a place with sane laws, the shooter should have had his self defense claim thrown the fuck out. What kind of shit show of a place allows a man to entice another man to come at him so he can shoot him, then claim self defense after the fact?
That's the definition of acting with malice and ill intent.

 

[Burai]

I might be very wrong here, but from what I read on GAF and IIRC, warning shots are prohibited.

Yet shooting someone dead is perfectly fine? If you can get away with murder, you can get away with firing a bullet into the sky.

 

[patapuf]

Just closing the door and calling the police was of course not an option -.-

Is florida a rural state where police stations are very far away? because that's the only way these loose "self defence" laws make sense.

 

[Hex]

I wonder if Get me the F out of Florida would be a good enough Kickstarter type thing....

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I wonder if Get me the F out of Florida would be a good enough Kickstarter type thing....

You'd make millions!

 

[Javaman]

Did he open the gate to let his friend in and leave it open, or was it to bait the victim?

 

[gcubed]

Did he open the gate to let his friend in and leave it open, or was it to bait the victim?

He specifically said that he left it open to entice the guy. Not sure how you can do that and then not get charged with anything. Crazy ass judge

 

[Somnid]

Morally reprehensible aside, this is highly dishonorable. Like they need to force him into Seppuku.

 

[LostCaress]

In a place with sane laws, the shooter should have had his self defense claim thrown the fuck out. What kind of shit show of a place allows a man to entice another man to come at him so he can shoot him, then claim self defense after the fact?
That's the definition of acting with malice and ill intent.

This actually makes hunting people possible. Just chose a neighbour you know is a hot-head, provoke him enough, retreat to your house (heck, leave the gate open if you'd like) and then shoot him when he's coming for you.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Call the police??

This is basically my first thought...

I'm actually really surprised that the first thought of some people in this thread is that if someone is threatening you in this scenario the appropriate reaction is to shoot them.

 

[Donos]

hahahahahaha

I agree with you. I mean, c'mon, the dude should've known better. you see a gun, you back the fuck down.

Problem is we don't really know how short the time was between the charge and the draw of the gun and then the shot. Maybe the gun draw was one fluent motion and the attacker had not really time to break up the "charge/attack".

I need a better source to read up how the situation unfolded.

 

[Angelus Errare]

It seems the "unarmed person charging person with a gun from XX feet away" story will remain the ever solid defense for justified shootings.

See soemone you don't like? Provoke them, entice them to attack you. put some holes in him and claimed he charged you.

This actually makes hunting people possible. Just chose a neighbour you know is a hot-head, provoke him enough, retreat to your house (heck, leave the gate open if you'd like) and then shoot him when he's coming for you.

Basically. Florida is teaching people how to get away with murder.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Just closing the door and calling the police was of course not an option -.-

Is florida a rural state where police stations are very far away? because that's the only way these loose "self defence" laws make sense.

I think its that 'wild west' mentality. Gotta protect your own.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Someone calls a friend to get a gun, opens the gate for some guy and attempts to entice him to come onto his property so he can shoot him, and ends up following through. How is that not premeditated murder?