Support NeoGAF

[Hands of Stone]

I like Mike alot but top 5 is ridiculous. He's a lock for Top 10 though.

That's a good list. I see the Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Duran, and Sweat Pea Whitaker.

I can see people rating Gans over Pernell but his overall talent/ability gives him the slight edge (imo). Being the best overall defensive fighter (Locche for me has the best pure defense) is another feather in his cap.

Care to post your list?

 

[abuC]

I don't believe Paul Williams had a shot against Mayweather. He was easily picked apart by Lara in that robbery.

The Lara fight was at middleweight, after Sergio knocked him out and he had obvious problems with other southpaws. All of his bad performances were against other southpaws, Quintana, Lara and Sergio.


At 147lbs he was unbeatable in my opinion, too much power, too good of a chin, too much range and too high of a workrate.

 

[Hands of Stone]

The Lara fight was at middleweight, after Sergio knocked him out and he had obvious problems with other southpaws. All of his bad performances were against other southpaws, Quintana, Lara and Sergio.


At 147lbs he was unbeatable in my opinion, too much power, too good of a chin, too much range and too high of a workrate.

Williams wasn't really known for his power? Also, while he was a rangy and tall bastard he never utilized both gifts effectively imo and tended to smother his work at times.

The chin/workrate give you though. I see Mayweather having some rocky moments but getting a UD all the same.

Naseem was such a fucking pain in my goddamned ass, I hated that dude so much. He was so goddamned good. God I hated him. He was incredible.

MAB shoving his head into the ring post is classic. Took his soul that night.

 

[hipbabboom]

I'm not mad at Floyd. He shows the problematic trend I see exhibited from some his generation. They know basic math and think their ability to find numbers and find where the greater-than symbol falls proves whatever point they wish to make but only demonstrate that they're analytical failings. You have a talent and your successful in life but you can still be blind to proper perspective required for understanding.

 

[Lightning Count]

*insert Floyd can't read joke here*

Yeah he's so full of himself it's painful.

No Sugar Ray? No Joe Lewis? No Coleman? No Tyson? Come on man.

Tyson would lose to Ali and the elite heavyweights he did fight, he lost to.

 

[Hands of Stone]

Tyson would lose to Ali and the elite heavyweights he did fight, he lost to.

No shame in losing to the clear #1 at the weight tbh. Holyfield and Lewis were always gonna be bad match ups for Mike.

 

[abuC]

Williams wasn't really known for his power? Also, while he was a rangy and tall bastard he never utilized both gifts effectively imo and tended to smother his work at times.

The chin/workrate give you though. I see Mayweather having some rocky moments but getting a UD all the same.



MAB shoving his head into the ring post is classic. Took his soul that night.

He had power at 147, it seemed to vanish when he fought at 150 or more.


I think a tall fighter that could smother Mayweather & outwork him while also being able to fight from the outside is the type that could have beaten him. He avoided Margarito and Williams for a reason IMO (He would have beaten Margacheato, it would have been similar to his fight with Chino).

 

[RustyNails]

Ali is the OG GOAT. One simply does not make such silly comments.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

What about Amir Khan?

 

[abuC]

Those left hooks are like magnets for his chin

 

[Hands of Stone]

He had power at 147, it seemed to vanish when he fought at 150 or more.


I think a tall fighter that could smother Mayweather & outwork him while also being able to fight from the outside is the type that could have beaten him. He avoided Margarito and Williams for a reason IMO.

Mayweather has a decent chin and Williams was more of accumulation puncher (I'd say Margo had more power but the wraps controversy has me questioning his legit power.)

The Floyd from the Hatton or Marquez fights would be landing an outrageous number of punches seeing how leaky Williams defense was. He relied way too much on his chin.

Any updates on his condition?

If you wanna watch Ali fight the meanest left hook of all time watch his trilogy with Frazier.

My 2nd fav fighter of all time. Greatest pressure fighter at the weight.

 

[BadAss2961]

The guy who had the best shot of beating him is paralyzed now unfortunately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5VWCW5ZNv4


Paul Williams was a beast when he fought at welterweight, he bit off more than he could chew moving up to middleweight but I don't think anyone at 147 could beat him when he was focused. 6'1 southpaw with a 79" reach and really high output, Floyd beat taller fighters but I don't think he'd be able to beat Paul @ 147.

One of my favorites during his peak, Paul Williams was so fun to watch. Ridiculously long welterweight with a crazy workrate. I swear he was even taller than 6'1.

 

[bionic77]

If you wanna watch Ali fight the meanest left hook of all time watch his trilogy with Frazier.

Didn't that break his jaw?

 

[Hands of Stone]

Didn't that break his jaw?

No just quite a bit of swelling.

He did break his jaw in the late rounds of the 1st Norton fight.

 

[Epix]

No Kelly Robinson? Man was 57-0.

 

[TJ Verboten]

I don't begrudge Floyd for not fighting Paul Williams.
Paul didn't have the traction yet financially to justify such a dangerous fight given the reach disadvantage Floyd would've had.
He beat Margarito in fall 07, but lost a decision to Carlos Quintana in Feb. 08, got Quintana in the rematch in a 1st rd ko, but then Paul moved up in weight.
So the fight could've happened in that very limited time window....but that missed fight doesn't bother me that much.

The biggest matchup post Hatton for Floyd would've been Cotto in spring 2008, who was undefeated coming off a close but excellent win over Shane Mosley.
That's the fight I would've wanted to see if Floyd didn't temporarily retire.
Their 2012 fight was a good one, and I think Floyd still decisions him in 07, but it'd be fun to see a younger, pre Margarito, Cotto that attacked the body more (which Roach has done a good job of making his offense more complete again).

The other Floyd fight I'd have to like to have seen is Kostya Tszyu in 2004.
That's a big name, longtime successful, fighter to have missed, in terms of Floyd.
Hatton roughed up and took care of Tszyu in 05, so that was that.
But it'd be nice to have Floyd's resume include a fight with Tszyu.

 

[Retromelon]

Didn't that break his jaw?

In joe's memoir he said, (paraphrasing from memory) honestly, it was not a powerful punch. But it landed perfectly on a very tired man.
What a great read that was

 

[AAK]

Prince Naseem Hamed

WTF is this???? How is he getting away with that stuff??

Ultimate heel material though. Would be one guy I would always love to see lose humiliatingly LOL.

 

[Ragingnight]

honestly roy jones jr is the most entertaining boxer for me. To bad he stuck too long in the game and change weight division so often.

 

[bionic77]

honestly roy jones jr is the most entertaining boxer for me. To bad he stuck too long in the game and change weight division so often.

He was never the same after he went to heavyweight.

But he was untouchable before that.

The prince (see above) was extremely entertaining as well.

That was a great time for boxing.

 

[Azih]

Joe had such a tremendous heart. I hate how Ali treated him.

Ali treated Joe the same way he treated everybody else he fought. Heckling before the bout and gracious afterwards.. Everybody else just understood that Ali was being a hype man and trying to win the pre fight mental game and didn't hold it against him. Joe was the only one who took it so personally that he took the dumb grudge to his grave. The only other exception was Sonny Liston who was genuinely terrified.

Ali had one of the best mouths and sharpest wits in boxing history. He used them to his advantage. That's all it was.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Ali treated Joe the same way he treated everybody else he fought. Heckling before the bout and gracious afterwards.. Everybody else just understood that Ali was being a hype man and trying to win the pre fight mental game and didn't hold it against him. Joe was the only one who took it so personally that he took the dumb grudge to his grave. The only other exception was Sonny Liston who was genuinely terrified.

Ali had one of the best mouths and sharpest wits in boxing history. He used them to his advantage. That's all it was.

Uhh, maybe he took it personally because calling someone an Uncle Tom can be a pretty fucking personally insulting thing? The fact that Ali was just doing it for money and to hype up a fight (and that Frazier actually helped Ali out financially when it was not able to fight) doesn't somehow make it okay, if anything it makes it worse.

 

[Ragingnight]

He was never the same after he went to heavyweight.

But he was untouchable before that.

The prince (see above) was extremely entertaining as well.

That was a great time for boxing.

I have heard that RRJ in his prime was pretty much one of the best middle weight - super middle weight boxer of all time. Not sure how true it is but almost everybody attest that his athletic ability was off the charts. Its just that his weight hopping and him staying in the game for so long has given his track record quite a tarnish.

 

[bionic77]

Uhh, maybe he took it personally because calling someone an Uncle Tom can be a pretty fucking personally insulting thing? The fact that Ali was just doing it for money and to hype up a fight (and that Frazier actually helped Ali out financially when it was not able to fight) doesn't somehow make it okay, if anything it makes it worse.

Didn't he also say he looked like a monkey?

Ali went too far but I am guessing what kills Joe more than anything else is he could not win that 3rd fight. That loss probably ate him up inside. Especially seeing how close he was to winning.

 

[bionic77]

I have heard that RRJ in his prime was pretty much one of the best middle weight - super middle weight boxer of all time. Not sure how true it is but almost everybody attest that his athletic ability was off the charts. Its just that his weight hopping and him staying in the game for so long has given his track record quite a tarnish.

Jones was a force of nature.

Have not seen anyone before or since who could do the shit he could. It seemed like he could do anything when he was on his game.

 

[RustyNails]

Uhh, maybe he took it personally because calling someone an Uncle Tom can be a pretty fucking personally insulting thing? The fact that Ali was just doing it for money and to hype up a fight (and that Frazier actually helped Ali out financially when it was not able to fight) doesn't somehow make it okay, if anything it makes it worse.

Ali was under the spell of Nation of Islam, who were racist to the core. They used Ali to their best advantage, as Frazier was being funded by mostly white investors. Best thing Ali ever did was to leave NoI.

 

[Officerrob]

Joe Louis not being on that list is a joke.

Agree 1000%, Floyd is either trolling his ass off (likely considering where he put himself on the list), or he's just clueless. Joe Louis not being in the top five is a bigger joke than Floyd being first. Also, where the hell is Sugar Ray Robinson? Yeah, list is a joke

 

[Retromelon]

Didn't he also say he looked like a monkey?

Ali went too far but I am guessing what kills Joe more than anything else is he could not win that 3rd fight. That loss probably ate him up inside. Especially seeing how close he was to winning.

Joe won in our hearts

 

[bionic77]

Joe won in our hearts

Not in mine.

Ali is one of the most inspiring athletes of all time. His story is bananas. Given the times I can't believe the CIA or the Nation didn't assassinate him.

And I am sure it was posted but the best boxing discussion ever put on film:

http://youtu.be/Il9jJObx7FE

 

[Retromelon]

Joe's life story is by far more inspiring to me. He had one of the dirt poor-est upbringings you could have.
Bio your vid was beaten on like the first or second page.

 

[bionic77]

Joe's life story is by far more inspiring to me. He had one of the dirt poor-est upbringings you could have.
Bio your vid was beaten on like the first or second page.

You can't be wrong about something like this but the fact that Ali took a stand (that turned out to be the right one) and was willing to lose everything about it is some shit straight out of Hollywood. Then he comes back and gets his clock cleaned only to win the title back that was stolen from him?

Joe was also fighting the same struggle and it was unfair that he was labeled the enemy by Ali fans.

 

[The Beard]

Ali treated Joe the same way he treated everybody else he fought. Heckling before the bout and gracious afterwards.. Everybody else just understood that Ali was being a hype man and trying to win the pre fight mental game and didn't hold it against him. Joe was the only one who took it so personally that he took the dumb grudge to his grave. The only other exception was Sonny Liston who was genuinely terrified.

Ali had one of the best mouths and sharpest wits in boxing history. He used them to his advantage. That's all it was.

That's not true though. Ali took it to a disgusting level with Frazier. I totally understand trash talking, and hyping up fights, but what he did to Frazier was fucking gross. I lost all respect for Ali as a person after I saw that. Frazier seemed like such a genuinely kind man too, which made it 1,000 times worse.

 

[Fantomex]

He was never the same after he went to heavyweight.

But he was untouchable before that.

The prince (see above) was extremely entertaining as well.

That was a great time for boxing.

The Prince was hella entertaining, and was fun to hate on.

 

[RustyNails]

That's not true though. Ali took it to a disgusting level with Frazier. I totally understand trash talking, and hyping up fights, but what he did to Frazier was fucking gross. I lost all respect for Ali as a person after I saw that. Frazier seemed like such a genuinely kind man too, which made it 1,000 times worse.

That's not true. Frazier mocked Ali's Parkinson's:

“I’m sorry that he is the way he is, but I didn’t have too much to do with it. It was the good man above,” Frazier said. “Maybe I did have a little to do with it, but God judges, you know what I’m saying? We don’t have the power to judge that the man has above.”

Frazier believes that Ali’s arrogant boasts of “I am the greatest!” were “a slap in the Lord’s face,” and that he did the same to his family when he changed his name from Cassius Clay to reflect his Muslim beliefs.

Total dick. Ali's trash talking stopped after the bell rang, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Retromelon]

That's not true though. Ali took it to a disgusting level with Frazier. I totally understand trash talking, and hyping up fights, but what he did to Frazier was fucking gross. I lost all respect for Ali as a person after I saw that. Frazier seemed like such a genuinely kind man too, which made it 1,000 times worse.

Joe literally spoke to richard nixon on ali's behalf to get his boxing license reinstated, as well as help him financially. Ali then called him an uncle tom, as well as say "It'll be a thrilla and a killa and a chilla when I get that gorilla in manila"
Ali praised him as much as he could after their last fight, as well as later in life, and seems genuinely remorseful. Joe never forgave him, and I see no reason why he should have.

 

[Discotheque]

Not in mine.

Ali is one of the most inspiring athletes of all time. His story is bananas. Given the times I can't believe the CIA or the Nation didn't assassinate him.

And I am sure it was posted but the best boxing discussion ever put on film:

http://youtu.be/Il9jJObx7FE

yeah Ali was fighter turned activist turned fighter. He had the whole country against him at one point. And came back strong.

 

[The Beard]

That's not true. Frazier mocked Ali's Parkinson's:

Total dick. Ali's trash talking stopped after the bell rang, if I'm not mistaken.

WTF? He didn't mock Ali's Parkinson's. He was a Christian, Christians believe God is responsible for everything, and everything happens for a reason. Not an example of Frazier being a bad/unkind man IMO.

 

[Retromelon]

I disagree with you but after all the shit he took for being a nationwide symbol in 71 for an uncle tom i couldnt care less

 

[Frog-fu]

That's not true. Frazier mocked Ali's Parkinson's:

Total dick. Ali's trash talking stopped after the bell rang, if I'm not mistaken.

No, it didn't. Ali and Frazier had a very unusual relationship. They hated each other as much as they respected each other. Ali started it though, much as I like the man, he put Frazier through hell and made him the Uncle Tom to his Nat Turner. He called him an ugly ape, the white man's slave, a race traitor and all sorts of shit, and he continued to do so relentlessly in the lead up to, during and well after their fights.

Frazier had some unkind shit to say about Ali, I think he once he even mentioned wishing he could've pushed Ali into the Olympic flames (lol), but he didn't start the bad blood between them, and much as I adore Ali, Frazier was the only fighter Ali could never compromise with his trash talking, the only fighter to ever really push him to his limits and then some - and Ali alway knew it. He was The Greatest, but not by as large of a margin as he wished he was.

 

[MVP]

Agree 1000%, Floyd is either trolling his ass off (likely considering where he put himself on the list), or he's just clueless. Joe Louis not being in the top five is a bigger joke than Floyd being first. Also, where the hell is Sugar Ray Robinson? Yeah, list is a joke

I don't think he's trolling, I think he bases his picks on dominance, not by popularity or recognition. There are way too many incredibly dominant fighters in history at lower weight classes that his list isn't all that surprising (except for Whitaker, wtf?). I'm honestly surprised there are any heavyweights on his list at all, and if there were one I didn't think Ali would be it.

Ask an all-time great heavyweight his top 5, and I'm sure it would be full of heavyweights.

 

[abuC]

I don't think he's trolling, I think he bases his picks on dominance, not by popularity or recognition. There are way too many incredibly dominant fighters in history at lower weight classes that his list isn't all that surprising (except for Whitaker, wtf?). I'm honestly surprised there are any heavyweights on his list at all, and if there were one I didn't think Ali would be it.

Ask an all-time great heavyweight his top 5, and I'm sure it would be full of heavyweights.

Yup, his list is all lightweights & welterweights which is what he is with Ali thrown in. I don't think Sweet Pea being there is all that shocking, he was a defensive wizard and I'm sure Roger & Floyd Sr. used him as a beacon for Floyd to study.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

I's a tough thing to be objective about IMO.

How do you compare fighters from way back in the 20s, 30s and 40s like Harry Greb, Gene Tunney, Willie Pep, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson etc, with modern day boxers considering the advances in conditioning, and how the sport has changed and evolved?

Generally how P4P and GOAT lists are worked out is not really made clear in terms of what the criteria is.

MY criteria would be as follows:-

1. Resume - did they fight the best of their time and how did they fare? Undefeated? Avenged defeats?
2. Prime Factor - how 'unbeatable' were they at their peak?
3. Adaptability - multiple weights? Plan A,B - Z?
4. Legacy - did they leave the sport at the right time, or did they tarnish their legacy by fighting on too long?
5. Intangibles - this is just that 'je ne sai quois' that can separates the best from the rest.

Now, based on that criteria, in the modern day with the farce that is boxing politics, and snakes like Al Haymon and Bob Arum, how do we get the best to fight the best? Resume in the modern day is undermined a lot #, and it's not necessarily the boxer in questions fault.

My objective GOAT list based on the above criteria is

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Muhammud Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb

My favourite boxers on the other hand are

1. Nigel Benn
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Muhammud Ali
5. Roy Jones Junior

Even though I loved watching Zags fight, I agree with folks saying that Calzaghe can't really get anywhere near top 10 - I'd even say top 20 on the GOAT list is a stretch. His resume simply isn't good enough - whether that is Frank Warren's fault or whatever I don't know, but it's true.

Compare Carl Froch - whilst I'd take Calzaghe to win a wide UD everyday of the week and twice on Sunday, Froch arguably has a better Resume.

And then Floyd - there is so much corruption and politics in boxing and Floyd has so much power and influence, IMO his Resume is questionable as well. Because he is the 'A' side in every negotiation, he always stacks the odds in his favour; Ring Size, Gloves, etc etc. Even with Marquez, coming in over weight.

I admire Floyd's ability, but I think he falls short on GOAT lists for a number of reasons.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

The no footage thing hurts him sure but the mans record is so ridiculous. A who's who of the top MW's of the era and multiple times at that. One year he went 45-0. Goddamn amazing. Greb-Tunney 1 is the holy grail of boxing footage.

Oh, you'll get no arguments from me on his record. I'd been trying to get a decent amount of information on him for years purely based on that record.

So great having The Fearless Harry Greb & Live Fast, Die Young available now, back when I started looking up on him the only book I could find was Give Him to the Angels, which was expensive, out of print, and apparently not that great (though I don't know about the last as I couldn't afford the prices back then). Ironically it looks like second hand prices have dropped like a stone since the others came out.

 

[Hands of Stone]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Muhammud Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb

Finally someone posts their list.

Can't go wrong with the original Sugar man, lightning speed, rock chin, and tnt power in either hand. Napoles style is more reminiscent of Robinson's than Leonard's imo.

Why no Charles or Armstrong? Both were better than Pep I think. Langford could fit in there as well.

I honestly can see someone make the case for Ali to be top 12 and Louis top 15. Extraordinary for HW's to be so high on the ATG ranking but I can see it.

Another mention of Greb! I wonder how well he'd have done against Dempsey. If he could have taken down Jack he'd be the undisputed #1, film or not. Apparently the closest in style to how he fought is Calzaghe, relentless swarmer with buckets of stamina.

My favourite boxers on the other hand are

1. Nigel Benn
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Muhammud Ali
5. Roy Jones Junior

Benn-Eubank 1 is classic fight, haven't seen it in ages though.

Joe get alotta flack for his less than stellar resume but the man still was a hell of a fighter.
Kessler being his best win.

My favs would be

Roberto Duran
Joe Frazier
Thomas Hearns
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez

Here's a sparring session between our 2 favs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZtTnBo61fM

 

[Brerlappin]

The Prince was hella entertaining, and was fun to hate on.

Its sad what happened to Nas. As much as i hated him he was skilled and entertaining, but his own ego was just too big for him in the end. He never recovered from his loss to Barrera and wound up a fat has-been doing Jail time for almost killing someone in a drunk driving accident.

 

[Don'tBeWeird]

Nas was very, very talented, no doubt.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

Why no Charles or Armstrong? Both were better than Pep I think. Langford could fit in there as well.

I'd have Armstrong at 6, juts think Pep had a better record - he lost a decision to Robinson who was much bigger and Pep was very green at the time.

Another mention of Greb! I wonder how well he'd have done against Dempsey. If he could have taken down Jack he'd be the undisputed #1, film or not. Apparently the closest in style to how he fought is Calzaghe, relentless swarmer with buckets of stamina.

Imagine being able to see that Greb v Tunney contest?

I think that is one of the things that people really understimate regarding Calzaghe is his relentless stamina - couple that with a granite chin, and the ability to adapt and change plan many times in a fight, it's a hard combination of characteristics to overcome.

I just wish that he had fought Hopkins back in 2002 when Bernard doubled his money request. I think Joe would have won even more convincingly back then before his hands became problematic.

IMO RJJ is the only boxer that fought at Super Middle that I'd bet on to beat Calzgahe, and even then I think it would be close. Would have been a great one!

I know a lot of people think Ward would beat Calzaghe but I'm not one of them.

Nice wee interview with Nigel Benn giving JC props:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR9QPdmCtvY

Benn-Eubank 1 is classic fight, haven't seen it in ages though.

Obviously the McLellan fight is uncomfortable to watch now in light of what happened, but that fight just underlined how HARD Benn was. Love his destruction of Iran Barkely too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g78Rci47wcs

Joe get alotta flack for his less than stellar resume but the man still was a hell of a fighter.
Kessler being his best win.

I don't think people realise how much that fight took out of Kessler. It was not the same Kessler that fought Ward that's for sure. I still think the headbutts in that fight were terrible, and is something Ward would have been DQd for in Copenhagen. I respect Ward's infighting game, but something about him rubs me the wrong way. I still think Froch would have knocked him out in Nottingham, and the same for Kessler in Copenhagen. Darnell Boone just about had Ward out!

My favs would be

Roberto Duran
Joe Frazier
Thomas Hearns
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez

Here's a sparring session between our 2 favs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZtTnBo61fM

That's awesome!

Duran would be in my top 10 GOAT, probably 8, and he'd be GOAT LW

Another one of my favourite documentary style vids:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1cLwJgLQmA

Steve Collins and Roy Jone's Jr still almost going at it. I never liked Steve Collins, but he was hard and intimidating!

 

[Frog-fu]

Prince Naseem VS Mayweather would've been a very interesting fight. Like a snake versus a mongoose.

 

[Lightning Count]

Top 5 fighters (not just boxers)

1 - Fedor Emelianenko
2 - Muhammad Ali
3 - Marvin Hagler
4 - Anderson Silva
5 - Sugar Ray Robinson

Most entertaining to watch

1 - Chan Sung Jung (The Korean Zombie)
2 - Conor McGregor
3 - Anderson Silva
4 - Muhammad Ali
5 - Wanderlei Silva

 

[Hands of Stone]

Prince Naseem VS Mayweather would've been a very interesting fight. Like a snake versus a mongoose.

Mayweather by a clear, clear decision. Hamed was a solid fighter with great power and some decent combinations but left himself open way too often which Floyd would exploit. If you think the Barrera beatdown was bad, I couldn't think how'd much worse this bout would be.