• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Floyd Mayweather says Muhammad Ali is fifth best boxer ever.

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

The Beard

Member
PHOENIXZERO said:
I think it can be widely agreed upon that by the time those fights happened Tyson wasn't anywhere close to the same fighter he was in the 80s. Tyson's prime as a pro boxer was incredibly short and a lot of that can be blamed on Don King along with Tyson himself. But after leaving his manager for King and later cutting ties with Cus D'Amano's guys who trained him while and after Cus died on King's influence Tyson wasn't the same and that's before going into the 90s.

I'd be willing to wager had D'Amano been 20 years younger or at least lived another 10 or so years Tyson life and career would've been quite different.
Click to expand...

Sure, but the same could be said for Lewis and Holyfield. Tyson was younger than both of them. He was 4 years younger than Holyfield, and Holyfield beat him twice.
 
J

jmizzal

Member
Its his list, I mean he can pick who he wants lol, not like he picked scrubs


Mine is

Mike Tyson
Ali
Roy Jones Jr
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
 
T

trixx

Member
perhaps (I don't know much about boxing), but his legacy exceeds boxing which very few people in life manage to do. Not disregarding his list/statement though
 
P

PHOENIXZERO

Member
The Beard said:
Sure, but the same could be said for Lewis and Holyfield. Tyson was younger than both of them. He was 4 years younger than Holyfield, and Holyfield beat him twice.
Click to expand...
Not really, no. Tyson's decline had nothing to do with age.

EDIT: Not saying Tyson would outright win but the fights would've likely been quite different, especially without the ear biting shit though Holyfield probably would've still dirty boxed and Lewis would've certainly still handled him, especially if the fight was in 2002. As it stands, Tyson is certainly not a top five fighter even within his own division.
 
A

abuC

Member
Mighty Chin said:
I'll take decisive wins over 12 round decisions.

What that tells me is you dominated your opponent as opposed to your opponent being able to take you to the limit.
Click to expand...



Not every fighter is going to have KO power
1731473_o.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWuBdlEPOzo

117 wins only 14 knockouts, and 4 losses, you're a bad man when your nickname is "The Untouchable"
 
T

TJ Verboten

Member
The Beard said:
Sure, but the same could be said for Lewis and Holyfield. Tyson was younger than both of them. He was 4 years younger than Holyfield, and Holyfield beat him twice.
Click to expand...

The key with this debate is are we measuring Career Accomplishments?
In which case, Holyfield + Lewis outpace Tyson.

Or are we making the Head to Head, Peak vs. Peak, argument?
That's where Tyson has a case.

88' Tyson with Kevin Rooney is a force of nature that would have a shot at anyone prime for prime in heavyweight history.
The incredible speed of a middleweight at heavyweight, devastating mid range knock out power, intimidation, peek a boo style Cus D'Amato defense bobbing and weaving, puncing in combinations, going for body shots. A complete offense force.
Having said that, even at his peak, Tyson showed things that could arguably by exploited by a great fighter.
James "Quick" Tillis fight showed that a fighter that could stick, move, and jab Tyson could land on him. Tillis certainly is no hall of fame fighter, and Tyson still clearly controlled and won that fight convincingly on the cards.....but imagine a 66' Ali in that spot.
The reach advantage would be enormous for Ali.
Tyson would always have a chance to Joe Frazier Ali ala round 15 in the fight of the century, but I think if they fought a trilogy, Ali beats him by decision 2 out of 3 times, Tyson possibly catches him and puts his away in the other.

Tyson vs. Holmes? Larry was past it when they fought and coming off a long layoff, but Cus D'Amato was always convinced that Tyson matched up really well with Larry, so that's good enough for me peak vs. peak.

Tyson vs. Lennox Lewis? Their 2002 has no value whatsoever in predicting a prime vs prime matchup, simply because Tyson was medicated, 20 pounds overweight, and shot to pieces. It's only useful from a simple.......wow, Lewis is a lot bigger than Tyson in the ring and has a sizable reach advantage.
Prime Tyson gets Lewis out of there in the first 5 rounds, McCall is one thing.....but then to happen again against Hasim Rahman? That's enough for me to believe Tyson catches that chin and puts him out. If Lewis gets past rd 5, he'd have a legit chance, but I dont see it.

Tyson v Holyfield? 88' Tyson v 93' Holyfield (2nd Bowe fight) or 90' Holyfield (Buster Douglas). Great, great fight. One thing I guarantee is that Tyson isn't stopping Holyfield, who had one of the best chins in heavyweight history, too much heart on that man.
So I see Tyson by decision, Holyfield by decision, or Holyfield by TKO/KO (ala 96' actual first fight result).
Ultimately, I give Holyfield the edge....he's uniquely suited to beat Tyson.
Incredible heart and chin, great counterpuncher, threw beautiful combinations and had a high workrate in his prime (see the Dokes fight), could tag Tyson with his jab.
Plus mentally, Holyfield is stronger than Tyson.
Holyfield wins 2 out of 3 in a trilogy.
 
T

The Beard

Member
LockonStratos said:
ryh89Vx.gif
Click to expand...

This is my new favorite gif.

TJ Verboten said:
The key with this debate is are we measuring Career Accomplishments?
In which case, Holyfield + Lewis outpace Tyson.

Or are we making the Head to Head, Peak vs. Peak, argument?
That's where Tyson has a case.

88' Tyson with Kevin Rooney is a force of nature that would have a shot at anyone prime for prime in heavyweight history.
The incredible speed of a middleweight at heavyweight, devastating mid range knock out power, intimidation, peek a boo style Cus D'Amato defense bobbing and weaving, puncing in combinations, going for body shots. A complete offense force.
Having said that, even at his peak, Tyson showed things that could arguably by exploited by a great fighter.
James "Quick" Tillis fight showed that a fighter that could stick, move, and jab Tyson could land on him. Tillis certainly is no hall of fame fighter, and Tyson still clearly controlled and won that fight convincingly on the cards.....but imagine a 66' Ali in that spot.
The reach advantage would be enormous for Ali.
Tyson would always have a chance to Joe Frazier Ali ala round 15 in the fight of the century, but I think if they fought a trilogy, Ali beats him by decision 2 out of 3 times, Tyson possibly catches him and puts his away in the other.

Tyson vs. Holmes? Larry was past it when they fought and coming off a long layoff, but Cus D'Amato was always convinced that Tyson matched up really well with Larry, so that's good enough for me peak vs. peak.

Tyson vs. Lennox Lewis? Their 2002 has no value whatsoever in predicting a prime vs prime matchup, simply because Tyson was medicated, 20 pounds overweight, and shot to pieces. It's only useful from a simple.......wow, Lewis is a lot bigger than Tyson in the ring and has a sizable reach advantage.
Prime Tyson gets Lewis out of there in the first 5 rounds, McCall is one thing.....but then to happen again against Hasim Rahman? That's enough for me to believe Tyson catches that chin and puts him out. If Lewis gets past rd 5, he'd have a legit chance, but I dont see it.

Tyson v Holyfield? 88' Tyson v 93' Holyfield (2nd Bowe fight) or 90' Holyfield (Buster Douglas). Great, great fight. One thing I guarantee is that Tyson isn't stopping Holyfield, who had one of the best chins in heavyweight history, too much heart on that man.
So I see Tyson by decision, Holyfield by decision, or Holyfield by TKO/KO (ala 96' actual first fight result).
Ultimately, I give Holyfield the edge....he's uniquely suited to beat Tyson.
Incredible heart and chin, great counterpuncher, threw beautiful combinations and had a high workrate in his prime (see the Dokes fight), could tag Tyson with his jab.
Plus mentally, Holyfield is stronger than Tyson.
Holyfield wins 2 out of 3 in a trilogy.
Click to expand...

Great post!

What do you think about prime Joe Frazier vs prime Tyson?
Joe had such a tremendous heart. I hate how Ali treated him.
 
A

abuC

Member
TJ Verboten said:
The key with this debate is are we measuring Career Accomplishments?
In which case, Holyfield + Lewis outpace Tyson.

Or are we making the Head to Head, Peak vs. Peak, argument?
That's where Tyson has a case.

88' Tyson with Kevin Rooney is a force of nature that would have a shot at anyone prime for prime in heavyweight history.
The incredible speed of a middleweight at heavyweight, devastating mid range knock out power, intimidation, peek a boo style Cus D'Amato defense bobbing and weaving, puncing in combinations, going for body shots. A complete offense force.
Having said that, even at his peak, Tyson showed things that could arguably by exploited by a great fighter.
James "Quick" Tillis fight showed that a fighter that could stick, move, and jab Tyson could land on him. Tillis certainly is no hall of fame fighter, and Tyson still clearly controlled and won that fight convincingly on the cards.....but imagine a 66' Ali in that spot.
The reach advantage would be enormous for Ali.
Tyson would always have a chance to Joe Frazier Ali ala round 15 in the fight of the century, but I think if they fought a trilogy, Ali beats him by decision 2 out of 3 times, Tyson possibly catches him and puts his away in the other.

Tyson vs. Holmes? Larry was past it when they fought and coming off a long layoff, but Cus D'Amato was always convinced that Tyson matched up really well with Larry, so that's good enough for me peak vs. peak.

Tyson vs. Lennox Lewis? Their 2002 has no value whatsoever in predicting a prime vs prime matchup, simply because Tyson was medicated, 20 pounds overweight, and shot to pieces. It's only useful from a simple.......wow, Lewis is a lot bigger than Tyson in the ring and has a sizable reach advantage.
Prime Tyson gets Lewis out of there in the first 5 rounds, McCall is one thing.....but then to happen again against Hasim Rahman? That's enough for me to believe Tyson catches that chin and puts him out. If Lewis gets past rd 5, he'd have a legit chance, but I dont see it.

Tyson v Holyfield? 88' Tyson v 93' Holyfield (2nd Bowe fight) or 90' Holyfield (Buster Douglas). Great, great fight. One thing I guarantee is that Tyson isn't stopping Holyfield, who had one of the best chins in heavyweight history, too much heart on that man.
So I see Tyson by decision, Holyfield by decision, or Holyfield by TKO/KO (ala 96' actual first fight result).
Ultimately, I give Holyfield the edge....he's uniquely suited to beat Tyson.
Incredible heart and chin, great counterpuncher, threw beautiful combinations and had a high workrate in his prime (see the Dokes fight), could tag Tyson with his jab.
Plus mentally, Holyfield is stronger than Tyson.
Holyfield wins 2 out of 3 in a trilogy.
Click to expand...

You ever watch Ike Ibeabuchi fight before he went to prison?
 
H

HiResDes

Member
Sephzilla said:
Tyson's career record is 50-6 with 44 KOs. How is he not in the running for Top 5? I'd probably take Prime Tyson against anyone, except for Ali
Click to expand...

Are you serious? Did you just start following boxing in the 90s?


Edit: The post above is laughable because there's no way in hell even prime Tyson mops the floor with Lewis. The reach and great jab of Lewis were a force to be reckoned with and perfectly suited to stop him from getting close.
 
T

TJ Verboten

Member
The Beard said:
This is my new favorite gif.



Great post!

What do you think about prime Joe Frazier vs prime Tyson?
Joe had such a tremendous heart. I hate how Ali treated him.
Click to expand...

Loved Smokin Joe Frazier, actually saw him in a casino once.
His win over Ali in the FOTC is still the best ever single night performance at heavyweight.

But Frazier could be knocked down, look at this two fights with Foreman for evidence of that.
I think 88' Tyson is a bad matchup for Joe........Tyson is too explosive and devastating.
It'd be fireworks for as long as it lasted but I think Tyson gets him out of there within the first 6-7 rounds.
 
H

HiResDes

Member
Ezzard Charles, Sugar Ray Robinson, Gene Tunney, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, so many of the earlier era guys have become underrated it's hilarious.
 
Y

YaGaMi

Member
Sugar Ray Robinson was left out on purpose due to the fact that he's regarded GOAT by majority in the boxing world.
 
T

TJ Verboten

Member
abuC said:
You ever watch Ike Ibeabuchi fight before he went to prison?
Click to expand...

Yes I have, Ike's fight with David Tua was an excellent fight, very close, Ike showed a lot of promise, could take Tua's punches which was no small feat, and power of his own to boot. 6'2, 76 in reach, he had potential.
I never watched his fight with Chris Byrd but Byrd was a tricky fighter so that kind of result shows that Ike had the ability to handle different styles of fighters.

If he hadn't gotten into trouble, you have to figure either Lewis meets him (Ike turned down a fight against Michael Grant at one point) or certainly one or both of the Klitschkos would've had to have fought him.

With as anemic as the heavyweights have been post Lewis, sans Klitschko brothers, Ike could've easily been right in the mix for the heavyweight title.

The what ifs in boxing will drive you crazy..............like what if Bowe doesn't throw the WBC belt in the trash after beating Holyfield in 92....and Lewis/Bowe actually fight in 93?
What if they rematch in 95 when Lewis had Emmanuel Steward?)
Spoiler alert - Bowe was too polished for Lewis in 93 imo, he beats him in a more explosive version of Lewis/Vitali imo, except Bowe finishes the job against the more open, sloppier, hittable Lewis in 9 or 10 rounds.
Lewis with Manny Steward? With Bowe starting to fade but still good in 95? Lewis beats Bowe by decision. Manny really cleaned up Lewis's defense + footwork, built his base up more, got Lewis to stop pawing with him jab so much, really turned him into a great boxer.
96' and on? Lewis obviously murders Bowe (Exhibit A - Andrew Golota vs. both men).
 
K

kess

Member
abuC said:
Tyson is not a top 5 fighter, it's even a stretch to call him a top 5 heavyweight.


A prime Larry Holmes was better and would have mopped the floor with him.
Click to expand...

Holmes was taking hits from Norton, Shavers, Cooney in his prime. It's a credit to Tyson he was able to knock Holmes down like he did.
 
O

onadesertedisland

Member
I feel like people like Mayweather because he's a prick, and so far a successful one. For some reason some people like to nuthang on those sorts of personalities, perhaps because they get under the skin and they derive pleasure from that.
 
A

abuC

Member
TJ Verboten said:
Yes I have, Ike's fight with David Tua was an excellent fight, very close, Ike showed a lot of promise, could take Tua's punches which was no small feat, and power of his own to boot. 6'2, 76 in reach, he had potential.
I never watched his fight with Chris Byrd but Byrd was a tricky fighter so that kind of result shows that Ike had the ability to handle different styles of fighters.

If he hadn't gotten into trouble, you have to figure either Lewis meets him (Ike turned down a fight against Michael Grant at one point) or certainly one or both of the Klitschkos would've had to have fought him.

With as anemic as the heavyweights have been post Lewis, sans Klitschko brothers, Ike could've easily been right in the mix for the heavyweight title.

The what ifs in boxing will drive you crazy..............like what if Bowe doesn't throw the WBC belt in the trash after beating Holyfield in 92....and Lewis/Bowe actually fight in 93?
What if they rematch in 95 when Lewis had Emmanuel Steward?)
Spoiler alert - Bowe was too polished for Lewis in 93 imo, he beats him in a more explosive version of Lewis/Vitali imo, except Bowe finishes the job against the more open, sloppier, hittable Lewis in 9 or 10 rounds.
Lewis with Manny Steward? With Bowe starting to fade but still good in 95? Lewis beats Bowe by decision. Manny really cleaned up Lewis's defense + footwork, built his base up more, got Lewis to stop pawing with him jab so much, really turned him into a great boxer.
96' and on? Lewis obviously murders Bowe (Exhibit A - Andrew Golota vs. both men).
Click to expand...

Ike would have been champion at some point, his workrate for a heavyweight was just incredible, never saw someone his size apply so much pressure and constant movement. That chin, workrate and outright power would have been way too much for early Wlad to handle, I watched the Byrd fight and that was one of the more brutal knockouts I've seen.

82188154.gif



You should post in the boxing thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154705
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Floyd rates JCC way higher than I do.. and I was a Chavez fan.

Ali at 5 is fine.. no SRR is harsh.

I'm a big Sweet Pea fan, and Floyd being a Whitaker fan isn't surprising.

Not a bad list, except for JCC.. I'd pop SRR in there.. but all of the are ATG.

..and no.. Tyson isn't top 20.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
abuC said:
Ike would have been champion at some point, his workrate for a heavyweight was just incredible, never saw someone his size apply so much pressure and constant movement. That chin, workrate and outright power would have been way too much for early Wlad to handle, I watched the Byrd fight and that was one of the more brutal knockouts I've seen.

82188154.gif



You should post in the boxing thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154705
Click to expand...

Woulda, shoulda coulda.. the fact is you don't know.. Ike was a giant piece of shit of a human being.

He fought 2 guys with a pulse in his career.. and Tua is the most overrated HW of the last 30 years.. but his Byrd victory is pretty legit.. though Byrd was outweighed by 40lbs.. and Byrd came back better from the fight.

Thing is, who knows what would have happened if Ike fought as big and talented as him. We don't know, because it never happened.

Rating Ike is stupid, because he was still untested.
 
H

Hands of Stone

Member
I'm glad JC Superstar is getting the props he deserves. More of a top 35 of all time imo but still.

Duran makes my top 15 though. The only man to go the full 15 with Hagler when he was MW champ. A former LW doing that is fucking insane. Best of the Fab Four.
 
A

abuC

Member
NervousXtian said:
Woulda, shoulda coulda.. the fact is you don't know.. Ike was a giant piece of shit of a human being.

He fought 2 guys with a pulse in his career.. and Tua is the most overrated HW of the last 30 years.. but his Byrd victory is pretty legit.. though Byrd was outweighed by 40lbs.. and Byrd came back better from the fight.

Thing is, who knows what would have happened if Ike fought as big and talented as him. We don't know, because it never happened.

Rating Ike is stupid, because he was still untested.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about rating Ike? He had the talent to be a champion that's all, him being a piece of shit as a person has no bearing on how I view him as a fighter. Most boxers are pretty shitty people.
 
M

mnannola

Member
If Mike Tyson is in the top 5 for boxing, you have to put Shaq at top 5 for NBA. Both had amazing primes but were not on top for as long as others regarded the best in their sport.

As for Floyd's list, leaving out Sugar Ray Robinson is a disgrace. Switch Whitaker and Robinson and i'll allow it.
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
Nintendo already decided who is best. I don't see any Floyd Mayweather's Punch-Out!!.

376891-miketysonspunchout_002.jpg
Click to expand...

Sidebar: Was that the first and only time Nintendo has used a celebrity in a game's title or as a character in a game?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

15 Best Video Game NPCs Ever (What are yours?)
Opinion
13
3K
MonkeyClaw36 replied
Floyd Mayweather vs Conor McGregor - Saturday August 26th |OT| FOOK / YEAAAH
152 153 154 155 156
8K
976K
Hitman replied
  • Locked
Floyd Mayweather to face Andre Berto on September 12th at MGM Grand
7 8 9 10 11
503
45K
Chris R replied
Nigel Benn and Steve Collins agree to rematch after 21 years
10
3K
KimonoNoNo replied
  • Locked
Oscar De la Hoya's Letter to Floyd Mayweather
3 4 5 6 7
305
34K
Frog-fu replied
Top Bottom