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Football Thread 2011/2012 | OT12 | All the clowns were offside...

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Arnie

Member
There's nothing wrong with Henderson's technical ability, and Milner is far better than the standard he displayed at the Euros. And its been like this since I can remember, under Sven, McClaren, Capello and now Hodgson. The players might lose it a bit when they're deployed and trained in a way which doesn't focus so much on the technical side, but there's no way that fully accounts for the decline. Its bizarre, and can only come down to mentality, and match fitness to a tiny degree

Their technical ability is fine, but they don't inspire much creative confidence. Spain's football is built around trust; trust in your team's ability to give, receive, give and receive. It's a trust built from the ground up, as Spaniards are put through high intensity circular passing drills, whilst English players are taught to stand in rigid formations (not a joke, I read it in The Times today).

It's not their ability, it's how they're coached. My argument is that at club level they're receiving a semblance of that continental coaching style, where they're allowed slightly more freedom of expression. Gerrard's trained alongside the likes of Alonso and Torres, he's bound to have picked things up along the way, especially under Rafa's guidance. He can't trust in his teammates to know these techniques when he's playing for England though. And thus it all falls away, those techniques are brushed aside and it's his long standing memories of the national team's own specific coaching that comes to the fore, led by one Roy Hodgson.
 
Their technical ability is fine, but they don't inspire much creative confidence. Spain's football is built around trust; trust in your team's ability to give, receive, give and receive. It's a trust built from the ground up, as Spaniards are put through high intensity circular passing drills, whilst English players are taught to stand in rigid formations (not a joke, I read it in The Times today).

It's not their ability, it's how they're coached. My argument is that at club level they're receiving a semblance of that continental coaching style, where they're allowed slightly more freedom of expression. Gerrard's trained alongside the likes of Alonso and Torres, he's bound to have picked things up along the way, especially under Rafa's guidance. He can't trust in his teammates to know these techniques when he's playing for England though. And thus it all falls away, those techniques are brushed aside and it's his long standing memories of the national team's own specific coaching that comes to the fore, led by one Roy Hodgson.

Surely you should be able to control and pass a ball properly whether you trust your teammates or not? I fully agree with your point regarding our inability/unwillingness to move off the ball and play the incisive pass, but basics like those shouldn't leave a player no matter how non-technical their training sessions are.

Even Joe Hart seemed incapable of controlling and recycling a backpass against Italy :p
 

jtb

Banned
I also think that those drills contribute to a different understanding of the game itself; football is a sport that revolves around space - how much space you give opposing players, how to create space for yourself, and we see that with Spain and Barcelona, these sideways passes are intricately designed to create space for each other (it doesn't always work, and you have to be very very patient or have a ridiculously good player in Messi, respectively)- where the English game is more to wait and sit for these openings to present themselves, then exploit it. It's not just about retaining possession, it's about knowing how to use that possession; though certainly a couple sideways passes can't hurt compared to hoofing it long straight to the opposition keeper.

So I think it's more of a mental, than technical, thing. Gerrard being a good example - very very gifted footballer, but can switch on and off within matches and doesn't have the greatest decision making because, while he's very good at exploiting spaces in midfield/defence to a striker in waiting (dat Torres/Gerrard combo), he's much less useful in a central midfield role where he is required to create those spaces himself or another player. That;s how I see it at least
 

Arnie

Member
Surely you should be able to control and pass a ball properly whether you trust your teammates or not? I fully agree with your point regarding our inability/unwillingness to move off the ball and play the incisive pass, but basics like those shouldn't leave a player no matter how non-technical their training sessions are.

Even Joe Hart seemed incapable of controlling and recycling a backpass against Italy :p

You'd think, but I honestly believe the English National team is a depressing reminder of brawn over brains for most players, a notion built from over a decade of lacklustre coaching.

Found this picture on Rafa's Independent blog:

Pg-62s-benitez3.jpg


This paragraph's quite eerily linked to our current discussion:

Rafa said:
Vicente's philosophy is one which I have always shared. His idea was that we should coach the youth players, as much as we can, on how to use the ball. When you are working in the training sessions, 80 per cent of the work is with the ball. Back in that brief half-season managing Madrid with Vicente, our players included Fernando Hierro, Michel, Chendo and Emilio Butragueño. The philosophy was just the same when I managed Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard at Liverpool. Work with the ball: lots of it.
 
I'm tired so this is probably just waffle, but if you take Spain for example, a lot of their players play for the same team. Their attack is basically Barcelona, who play exactly the same style of football week in week out for barca as they did for Spain.

Then you take the England team and you've got players from a few clubs that all play different styles of play. They have a week or two to gel to hodgsons tactics and to gel with each other.

Also take Spain's squad and England's squad. Would any English player get in? Rooney and Gerard at a push but I can't think of any other that would.
 

Kyoufu

Member
I'm tired so this is probably just waffle, but if you take Spain for example, a lot of their players play for the same team. Their attack is basically Barcelona, who play exactly the same style of football week in week out for barca as they did for Spain.

Then you take the England team and you've got players from a few clubs that all play different styles of play. They have a week or two to gel to hodgsons tactics and to gel with each other.

Also take Spain's squad and England's squad. Would any English player get in? Rooney and Gerard at a push but I can't think of any other that would.

Why is Gerrard rated so highly? :/

England have a solid defence, they always do, but the midfield/attack has been bad since the golden boys retired.
 
Gerrard sure as fuck wouldn't. Not just saying that because I hate liverpool but look at Spains midfield, they really don't need him and he's 32.
 
Gerrard sure as fuck wouldn't. Not just saying that because I hate liverpool but look at Spains midfield, they really don't need him and he's 32.

I think he'd get in the squad, at a stretch. They don't need anyone other than what they've got, players with Gerrard's (declining) skillset can always come in useful though
 

jtb

Banned
no one from this England side would get into Spain's side, but then again, I think only two non Spanish players would anyways (Messi and Ronaldo). I mean, a player like Mata, who had been instrumental in winning the CL ffs barely got a touch of the ball during the tournament. And I certainly rate Mata higher than Gerrard atm.
 

Arnie

Member
I'm tired so this is probably just waffle, but if you take Spain for example, a lot of their players play for the same team. Their attack is basically Barcelona, who play exactly the same style of football week in week out for barca as they did for Spain.

Then you take the England team and you've got players from a few clubs that all play different styles of play. They have a week or two to gel to hodgsons tactics and to gel with each other.
This isn't true. There's a consistent fabric to the football in Spanish football, but Del Bosque doesn't send his team out to play exactly like Barcelona, and that's evident when watching them. After all, this is the man who's most famous for his countless years at Real.

I think the general point you're getting at just links back to the consistent style and pattern Spanish players are coached in. Reading Rafa's blog then, there's something that might answer your point. He says that promising young Spaniards are divided up and compete together from very early ages, taught to rival each other and learn from each other.

Torres was quoted as saying before the final, "I've played with Iniesta since I was 15 and I've yet to see him have a bad game."

This is a player who spent his career at Atletico Madrid and then Liverpool, talking about a player who's played only at Barcelona.
 

Ashes

Banned
I think all of you are right on some level. It is the lack of coaches - as compared to other leagues - from grass roots to the very top; it is that we are incapable of passing; it probably is psychological; we do have a great defence, and our golden generation midfield has been left behind, and we are up against a team that can go into the hall of fame as one of the great teams, in Spain. I don't think they are the best, but I can agree that having won three in a row, gives you a right to at least be counted among the greats.
 

Arnie

Member
That's a phrase I'm tired of fucking hearing over the last week or so, and one I wish would sit in a cupboard before it's inevitably let out for it's biannual holiday in 2014:

'grass roots'
 

GorillaJu

Member
Raheem Sterling article. There's been a lot of talk amongst fans about if Rodgers might want to loan Sterling out to Swansea. Think we have our answer.

He is contracted to Liverpool for two more years, but has no plans to leave the club anytime soon despite its decision to replace its cult hero and manager, Kenny Dalglish, for next season.

"He (Dalglish) is the one who gave me my debut, so I am grateful for that. To make my debut for Liverpool at 17 is quite an achievement, so I am happy that he had faith in me."

But Sterling has no concern about new manager Brendan Rodgers.

"It's actually quite a good trade because he wanted me to come down to Swansea on loan (last season), so he is a good manager."
 

jtb

Banned
all this Rafa talk reminds me: now that Rodgers got the LIverpool job and AVB is almost certain to be Tottenham's manager... is Rafa actually going to send out his CV anytime? The CL jobs are probably all gone, but still; it'd be a shame for him to waste his talents (and I do think he is a world class manager, questionable transfer decisions, which were tied to the ownership issues anyways, aside) as a pundit.
 
Maybe not first 11 but I still think he would make the squad of 23

I have a hard time seeing any central midfielders that Gerrard would replace on the Spanish squad. Maybe a few years ago.


no one from this England side would get into Spain's side, but then again, I think only two non Spanish players would anyways (Messi and Ronaldo).

Well I could see a few defenders who could get on the team.
 

Ashes

Banned
That's a phrase I'm tired of fucking hearing over the last week or so, and one I wish would sit in a cupboard before it's inevitably let out for it's biannual holiday in 2014:

'grass roots'

Fair enough. The key question is: How do we do a 'Germany' to get like a 'Spain'? At the moment, everything looks as if it is either old school thinking, or just isn't good enough.
 

ATF487

Member
Great. :D

The Town comes off highly recommended.

I still haven't seen this, but I'd recommend Gone Baby Gone if you're looking for something a little less bombastic.

I loved the Departed, and it got some things about the city right, but I hope I'll never have to hear Jack Nicholson's Boston accent again. Christ.
 
This isn't true. There's a consistent fabric to the football in Spanish football, but Del Bosque doesn't send his team out to play exactly like Barcelona, and that's evident when watching them. After all, this is the man who's most famous for his countless years at Real.

I think the general point you're getting at just links back to the consistent style and pattern Spanish players are coached in. Reading Rafa's blog then, there's something that might answer your point. He says that promising young Spaniards are divided up and compete together from very early ages, taught to rival each other and learn from each other.

Torres was quoted as saying before the final, "I've played with Iniesta since I was 15 and I've yet to see him have a bad game."

This is a player who spent his career at Atletico Madrid and then Liverpool, talking about a player who's played only at Barcelona.

Not exactly like barca but they've got four out of six midfielders who play for barca and their play was very Barcelona esc. With the passing and the constant chasing down when they didn't have the ball.

Interesting what rafa says though, there's definitely a lot of lessons to be learnt from the Spanish and their youth systems. Whether the FA will actually do something properly about it though is another matter. With more technical players like cleverdick and Wilshere coming through there's a little bit of hope for the future
 

Kyoufu

Member
Basically every kid in England needs to grow up watching Iniesta/Messi and try to become even better.

Go big or go home.
 

Ashes

Banned
:p @ salz

Not exactly like barca but they've got four out of six midfielders who play for barca and their play was very Barcelona esc. With the passing and the constant chasing down when they didn't have the ball.

Interesting what rafa says though, there's definitely a lot of lessons to be learnt from the Spanish and their youth systems. Whether the FA will actually do something properly about it though is another matter. With more technical players like cleverdick and Wilshere coming through there's a little bit of hope for the future

I do have a radical idea, but 99% chance England won't apply it, If I could get a word in edgeways to gaffer that is. :p

The problem seems to be team building/bonding right? So why not just throw in the under 21 team now?

Looking at the world cup qualifiers, if the England under 21 team doesn't beat some of those sides, then we really are in a big mess.

You know how every big team treats the Carling Cup? They give their youth team a chance to push through.

They might not do well immediately, but the team building starts right there.
 

Ashes

Banned
7 Sep 2012 Moldova (away);
11 Sep Ukraine (home);
12 Oct San Marino (home);
16 Oct Poland (away);
22 Mar 2013 San Marino (away);
26 Mar Montenegro (away);
6 Sep Moldova (home);
10 Sep Ukraine (away);
11 Oct Montenegro (home);
15 Oct Poland (home).

If the England Under 21 team doesn't win those games, we are in big trouble anyway.
 

jtb

Banned
It's one ticket to Europe though. They just need to increase the pool of money from the competition.

not the Europe anyone wants. I mean, you want to talk about a shitty tournament that adds way too many fixtures to an already congested fixture list? Hello Europa League, or whatever the fuck Platini has decided to name it this year with its latest shitty pointless revision.

great games, shitty tournament.
 
Basically every kid in England needs to grow up watching Iniesta/Messi and try to become even better.

Go big or go home.

They should be watching Busquets. Doesn't have a low centre of gravity or great pace/acceleration to help him burst past players. Doesn't have a brilliant passing game in terms of incisive short balls and accurate long balls. No part of his game seems to come naturally to him. He does have a hell of a first touch, exceptional positional sense and really, really intelligent dribbling/movement/passing though.

Next time you see Barca, keep an eye on him when he receives the ball under pressure. His first touch will take it away from the player pressuring him, while keeping it under his complete control. His second will put his body and ball in a position where he's got various options ahead of him, whether its by changing the path of the ball, or by feinting past his opposite number. His third or fourth will be the simplest, and smartest pass, and will almost certainly find its target in a way that makes a poor touch virtualy impossible.

All of this is of course helped by the players around him, but he's a great player nonetheless. My Spanish example of a player who has honed his game to near perfection for the role he plays
 

Kyoufu

Member
not the Europe anyone wants. I mean, you want to talk about a shitty tournament that adds way too many fixtures to an already congested fixture list? Hello Europa League, or whatever the fuck Platini has decided to name it this year with its latest shitty pointless revision.

great games, shitty tournament.

Agreed. They need to increase the pool of money gained from that. It's peanuts compared to CL.


They should be watching Busquets.

Suddenly the rate of acting in games goes up with the next generation.
 
English players aren't actually that technically talented. If you think somebody like Rooney is up there...well, he's not even in the top 5 at United IMO for technical talent. Nani, Scholes, Carrick, Berbatov and now Kagawa are all players with a better first touch and better close control. Infact I might even have Valencia above Rooney for technical proficiency. Funilly enough two of those are English but have never been really valued by England. Rooney has his moments but his touch is way too inconsistent to ever really be great.

The truest test of a players technical ability is their ball control at speed or in tight spaces and under pressure. That's where English players are lacking, they can't dribble and carry the ball at pace past players and they lose composure and precision under any sort of pressure. Most of our players can't kill the ball either. The first touch is so often away from goal. You look at Spain and the genius of the passing isn't just because they look to pass it, it's because they know that any of their players can receive a ball at pace in a tight spot and bring it under control and quickly release it. Cesc was taking passes pinged at him right into his stride without any problem even though he had 6ft defenders all over him. I doubt Rooney could do that.

Rooney is still a fantastic player mind. He has plenty of talent especially in the way he reads and sees the game aswell as a great range of passing and now cool finishing. But he doesn't do anything special apart from the now very occasional screamer or raking pass...well, because he can't.
 

jtb

Banned
They should be watching Busquets. Doesn't have a low centre of gravity or great pace/acceleration to help him burst past players. Doesn't have a brilliant passing game in terms of incisive short balls and accurate long balls. No part of his game seems to come naturally to him. He does have a hell of a first touch, exceptional positional sense and really, really intelligent dribbling/movement/passing though.

Next time you see Barca, keep an eye on him when he receives the ball under pressure. His first touch will take it away from the player pressuring him, while keeping it under his complete control. His second will put his body and ball in a position where he's got various options ahead of him, whether its by changing the path of the ball, or by feinting past his opposite number. His third or fourth will be the simplest, and smartest pass, and will almost certainly find its target in a way that makes a poor touch virtualy impossible.

All of this is of course helped by the players around him, but he's a great player nonetheless

cue biscuits holding his face gif.

It is players like Busquets that fly under the radar in an English culture while others like Song, who I like a lot, but is terrible at his actual role of a holding midfielder, get all the plaudits because twice a season he will lob a long ball just right. Busquets is a fantastic player, he knows what his role is and he does it well. He can start plays, and if anyone tries to close him down, he knows how to exploit the space they leave behind - just wish he wasn't such a
ibnYgO2KdQ3Hsn.gif
with his diving antics

Agreed. They need to increase the pool of money gained from that. It's peanuts compared to CL.

yup, more prize money, a CL berth at stake, no CL losers entering after the group stage, waaaay less fixtures... just about anything would make this tournament better.
 
English players aren't actually that technically talented. If you think somebody like Rooney is up there...well, he's not even in the top 5 at United IMO for technical talent. Nani, Scholes, Carrick, Berbatov and now Kagawa are all players with a better first touch and better close control. Infact I might even have Valencia above Rooney for technical proficiency. Funilly enough two of those are English but have never been really valued by England. Rooney has his moments but his touch is way too inconsistent to ever really be great.

The truest test of a players technical ability is their ball control at speed or in tight spaces and under pressure. That's where English players are lacking, they can't dribble and carry the ball at pace past players and they lose composure and precision under any sort of pressure. Most of our players can't kill the ball either. The first touch is so often away from goal. You look at Spain and the genius of the passing isn't just because they look to pass it, it's because they know that any of their players can receive a ball at pace in a tight spot and bring it under control and quickly release it. Cesc was taking passes pinged at him right into his stride without any problem even though he had 6ft defenders all over him. I doubt Rooney could do that.

Rooney is still a fantastic player mind. He has plenty of talent especially in the way he reads and sees the game aswell as a great range of passing and now cool finishing. But he doesn't do anything special apart from the now very occasional screamer or raking pass...well, because he can't.

Sterling's gonna change all that :p
 

Ashes

Banned
English players aren't actually that technically talented. If you think somebody like Rooney is up there...well, he's not even in the top 5 at United IMO for technical talent. Nani, Scholes, Carrick, Berbatov and now Kagawa are all players with a better first touch and better close control. Infact I might even have Valencia above Rooney for technical proficiency. Funilly enough two of those are English but have never been really valued by England. Rooney has his moments but his touch is way too inconsistent to ever really be great.

The truest test of a players technical ability is their ball control at speed or in tight spaces and under pressure. That's where English players are lacking, they can't dribble and carry the ball at pace past players and they lose composure and precision under any sort of pressure. Most of our players can't kill the ball either. The first touch is so often away from goal. You look at Spain and the genius of the passing isn't just because they look to pass it, it's because they know that any of their players can receive a ball at pace in a tight spot and bring it under control and quickly release it. Cesc was taking passes pinged at him right into his stride without any problem even though he had 6ft defenders all over him. I doubt Rooney could do that.

Rooney is still a fantastic player mind. He has plenty of talent especially in the way he reads and sees the game aswell as a great range of passing and now cool finishing. But he doesn't do anything special apart from the now very occasional screamer or raking pass...well, because he can't.

Right you are, but isn't Rooney scoring more than ever now?
 
Sterling's gonna change all that :p
He will and even the likes of Welbeck and Sturridge are clear examples of players who are more confident and happier on the ball. Sinclair is another example. Even Henderson and Cleverley look smarter and sharper on the ball. Wilshere is obv our best bet for now but you need a whole group of players who can play with ease on the ball.

There is some improvement there...but we're still well behind.

Seriously though you said earlier English players have perfect touches and make perfect passes week in week out in the PL. I really don't think they do, not many of them anyway.

I know we shouldn't compare ourselves to Spain but Xabi Alonso is the Scott Parker of their team, the guy who compared to the others tends to take a heavy touch or over run the ball and make simple mistakes from time to time. Xabi Alonso...and he's an incredible player.
 

jtb

Banned
He shouldn't have called the cops. :(((((

I'm still torn on that.. it was also really sad to see
them break up over it too. They made a good team and it made me respect his gf's character even more after that. In fact her character as a whole was just a refreshing take on the romantic lead in general.
 
Right you are, but isn't Rooney scoring more than ever now?
He is, but Hernandez scores plenty and his control is usually pants. Gomez another who scores loads but isn't exactly gifted.

Don't get me wrong Rooney isn't a donkey, he is talented and is good on the ball, just he isn't anything special relative to continental standards.

Besides, him scoring doesn't directly depend on his basic technique in tight spots. He gets chances and he is good at putting them away but how many of his goals are down to his own individual magic? Not that many I'm afraid to say.

I still think Rooney is an amazing player, his technique IS good, but it's not that which makes him great.
 
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