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[Wilbur]

So it's

1. Chelsea, Barcelona, United, Bayern, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Porto, Milan
2. Valencia, Benfica, Shakhtar, Zenit, Schalke, City, Braga, Kiev
3. Olympiakos, Ajax, Basel, Panathanaikos, Anderlecht, Juve, Copenhagen, Spartak
4. PSG, Galatasaray, Celtic, Dortmund, BATE, Dinamo, Montpellier, Nordsjaelland

If I could pick my group now

Manchester United
Dinamo Kiev
Anderlecht
Nordsjaelland

I want to see

Barcelona
Manchester City
Juventus
Paris St Germain

with Juve and Barca going through

edit: forgot to say obviously not everyone of those teams are through yet

 

[Facism]

yeh you missed fenerbahce, you donk

 

[Wilbur]

yeh you missed fenerbahce, you donk

They weren't on the list haha

 

[Vivalaraza]

I think you pulled a Morsel there too, viva.

He didn't even understand what I was saying!

 

[Sviatoslav]

yeh you missed fenerbahce, you donk

Seems it assumed the seeded teams will make it through the playoff round.

 

[Facism]

Seems it assumed the seeded teams will make it through the playoff round.

we could have them all

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Still laughing at how you signed Leon Best then he got injured for the season. He was pretty much always injured, that guy.

You should give us Shola as a gesture of goodwill, or for further lols

 

[Vivalaraza]

Read through the last few pages, thoughts :

- I like Kermit. Sounds like he did/said some pretty stupid things and tbh he got the ban for it. He's fun though. He would and still does jump to argue a bit too soon but it's in good spirit most of the time. On a forum like this though it's no surprise he'd reek havoc in the thread.

- Sounds like LFC have set a price for Agger and if it's met they'll "force" him out. Sounds harsh. I could be miss reading that but if he is eager to stay and the club don't wanna sell him...don't sell! I would have thought they'd be saying "no it's not happening hands off" but theyre very much leaving the door open.

- I want RVP. He's class.

- Very interested by the IPO pricing. Much more realistic. That could be good or bad. I'm not sure which.

 

[Sviatoslav]

we could have them all

The funny thing is the seeded teams for the playoff round seem worse than the unseeded teams. Lille, Malaga, Fenerbahce, Monchengladbach, Udinese > Spartak, Braga, Copenhagen, Dinamo Kiev and Panathinaikos.

My preferred champions league group would totally be:

Porto
Zenit
Anderlecht
BATE

 

[Arnie]

Sounds like LFC have set a price for Agger and if it's met they'll "force" him out. Sounds harsh. I could be miss reading that but if he is eager to stay and the club don't wanna sell him...don't sell! I would have thought they'd be saying "no it's not happening hands off" but theyre very much leaving the door open.

It sounds more reluctant than proactive, to me. It's not as if we're actively hoping that City come in and bid for him, but as we know they're interested we've set a ridiculous fee in the hope that it'll deter them. There comes a point where even loyalty and ability isn't a match for raw value, and we seem to have established that at £27 million plus Adam Johnson for a season (of which we'd probably pay a fraction of the wages).

It's such a conflicting position to be in, and the major reason I'm siding with Agger is because I don't think we'd invest the proceeds wisely enough, given our prior history with replacing top players.

And this, of course, which is one of the greatest things I've seen from a 'modern footballer', who someone like Kermit believes only exist to make as much money as possible and win trophies, regardless of the club they're at:

 

[elseanio]

Read through the last few pages, thoughts :

- I like Kermit. Sounds like he did/said some pretty stupid things and tbh he got the ban for it. He's fun though. He would and still does jump to argue a bit too soon but it's in good spirit most of the time. On a forum like this though it's no surprise he'd reek havoc in the thread.

- Sounds like LFC have set a price for Agger and if it's met they'll "force" him out. Sounds harsh. I could be miss reading that but if he is eager to stay and the club don't wanna sell him...don't sell! I would have thought they'd be saying "no it's not happening hands off" but theyre very much leaving the door open.

- I want RVP. He's class.

- Very interested by the IPO pricing. Much more realistic. That could be good or bad. I'm not sure which.

Can you imagine him playing for City with a YNWA tattoo? Would feel sorry for him if we forced him out.

 

[Vivalaraza]

I get that Liverpool have set a price and stuff...just, if they REALLY wanted to keep him, they'd say "no, we're not selling" y'know what I mean?

And then if somebody comes in with a ridiculous bid...fine, you look at it.

To me it just seems like with words like "it might be out of Daniel's hands"...I don't know, it doesn't sound convincing to me.

I think he will stay at Liverpool cos I don't see City paying the fee...and also, if I were City, why would you want to pay that much for a player who doesn't really wanna play for you...weird.

The YNWA tattoo is pretty amazing. Agger's cool.

 

[Wilbur]

Yeah I don't see Agger going. He wants to stay. Rodgers knows he can play football.

If they let him go it's a mistake.

 

[Kyoufu]

It sounds more reluctant than proactive, to me. It's not as if we're actively hoping that City come in and bid for him, but as we know they're interested we've set a ridiculous fee in the hope that it'll deter them. There comes a point where even loyalty and ability isn't a match for raw value, and we seem to have established that at £27 million plus Adam Johnson for a season (of which we'd probably pay a fraction of the wages).

It's such a conflicting position to be in, and the major reason I'm siding with Agger is because I don't think we'd invest the proceeds wisely enough, given our prior history with replacing top players.

And this, of course, which is one of the greatest things I've seen from a 'modern footballer', who someone like Kermit believes only exist to make as much money as possible and win trophies, regardless of the club they're at:

I bet Roman could tempt him to come play for Chelsea

/woodenlung

 

[Arnie]

I get that Liverpool have set a price and stuff...just, if they REALLY wanted to keep him, they'd say "no, we're not selling" y'know what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean, primarily because I've been gagging for anyone connected with the club to say those words in each and every interview I've watched. Makes it all even worse when Agger plays so well, like he did tonight.

There's a great image of Ferguson looking like he's just shit his pants in the Guardian's premier league preview video.

 

[Carbonox]

You should give us Shola as a gesture of goodwill, or for further lols

Ameobi > Best

 

[Emhemed]

So it's

1. Chelsea, Barcelona, United, Bayern, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Porto, Milan
2. Valencia, Benfica, Shakhtar, Zenit, Schalke, City, Braga, Kiev
3. Olympiakos, Ajax, Basel, Panathanaikos, Anderlecht, Juve, Copenhagen, Spartak
4. PSG, Galatasaray, Celtic, Dortmund, BATE, Dinamo, Montpellier, Nordsjaelland

If I could pick my group now

Manchester United
Dinamo Kiev
Anderlecht
Nordsjaelland

I want to see

Barcelona
Manchester City
Juventus
Paris St Germain

with Juve and Barca going through

edit: forgot to say obviously not everyone of those teams are through yet

Swap Barca with RM and we will have Europe's biggest spenders in one group minus Juve of course but I really want to see when/if Real play City or PSG. But knowing Real Madrid's luck they'll probably get an easy and uninteresting group again.

 

[Kyoufu]

Ameobi > Best

I love Shola. I will go to his testimonial.

 

[Clegg]

Vita sold less than 50,000 units in America last month.

Its dead.

 

[Arnie]

Vita sold less than 50,000 units in America last month.

Its dead.

Could've told you it wouldn't last long from 6 months before it released, with complete and utter confidence. Still baffled as to why a company as previously wise as Sony thinks a handheld like the Vita is viable in 2012. Mass handheld markets have all but evaporated away from dedicated machines that play console imitations.

A more realistic view of handheld gaming is me flicking balls into a net on the train.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Yep no idea why anybody thought Vita would do well. Doomed to fail.

 

[sneaky77]

Vita sold less than 50,000 units in America last month.

Its dead.

Was it ever alive?

 

[Carbonox]

Could've told you it wouldn't last long from 6 months before it released, with complete and utter confidence. Still baffled as to why a company as previously wise as Sony thinks a handheld like the Vita is viable in 2012. Mass handheld markets have all but evaporated away from dedicated machines that play console imitations.

A more realistic view of handheld gaming is me flicking balls into a net on the train.

This. The whole thing is a comedy.

 

[Clegg]

Could've told you it wouldn't last long from 6 months before it released, with complete and utter confidence. Still baffled as to why a company as previously wise as Sony thinks a handheld like the Vita is viable in 2012. Mass handheld markets have all but evaporated away from dedicated machines that play console imitations.

A more realistic view of handheld gaming is me flicking balls into a net on the train.

They made all the same mistakes as they did with the PSP too.

Lack of support and lack of quality games.

I know the PSP had a lot of good games but a lot of those were niche titles.

 

[sneaky77]

They made all the same mistakes as they did with the PSP too.

Lack of support and lack of quality games.

The biggest mistake is thinking a $250 dedicated handheld gaming device is something that adults want, most people have very capable phones and don't feel the need to carry two or more handheld devices. Thats my opinion of course, plus the 4 hrs battery life doesnt help

 

[Arnie]

Yep no idea why anybody thought Vita would do well. Doomed to fail.

Exactly, and I've got no sympathy for those that bought it. The way some people talk about it is ridiculous; why do you really want to play proper current generation Fifa on the bus? And I can assure you that sort of mindset is indicative of the mass market, without wanting to sound arrogant.

I look at Nintendo's handhelds and I can see the appeal, and why it's there despite the iPhone taking over. Games like Pokemon, New Super Mario Bros, and Brain Training are exceptional handheld games that you can't get on your console, and do suit short bursts of play. I look at what Sony are probably thinking will spike their sales, and I see a Killzone game that's both visually and functionally a short but noticeable step down from it's console brethren.

Lack of support and lack of quality games.

Sony haven't ever shown the ability to make stellar handheld games, though. And no amount of marketing is making that thing an aspirational device like the iPhone. People don't clamour for a dedicated gaming device. It's 2012, convergence happened half a decade ago.

 

[ElyrionX]

Could've told you it wouldn't last long from 6 months before it released, with complete and utter confidence. Still baffled as to why a company as previously wise as Sony thinks a handheld like the Vita is viable in 2012. Mass handheld markets have all but evaporated away from dedicated machines that play console imitations.

A more realistic view of handheld gaming is me flicking balls into a net on the train.

I saw you post this on the first page of the recent Vita thread and I agree.

It was clear from the very start when it was announced that the thing wouldn't stand a chance in today's market.

I disagree that Sony is "wise" though. They have never been. They've always pursued a singular strategy across all their products without giving a damn about the realities of the changing markets. This is exactly what happened with the Walkman.

The worst part is that the incompetent person who is responsible for this trainwreck was promoted and now heads the entire group. Well done, Sony.

 

[Kyoufu]

Yeah I don't think Sony should be competing in the handheld market. Would prefer them to just focus on consoles tbh. Will buy PS4 (provided it has free online gaming).

 

[Fintan]

I got a PSP when it first came out, but I was never going to get the Vita. I barely played my PSP. It did have some games I liked. The two Syphon Filter games were really good, but in the end all it did was leave me wanting a proper console Syphon Filter.

Basically what Arnie said, they didn't feel like it was necessary for a lot of Vita/PSP games to be handheld. They suffered for it because you inevitably compared them to their console versions.

 

[Clegg]

The PS3 lauch was also a complete disaster.

It was just one PR nightmare after another.

Sony can make some great quality games but are so incompetent when it comes to their hardware.

 

[Awesome Animals]

Vita sold less than 50,000 units in America last month.

Its dead.

That's what happens when development of hardware such as this take so long. I'm not saying they took to long to develop the PSVita, but unfortunately by the time it was released, mobile gaming had taken off. I don't think it was wrong of Sony to realize towards launch that there wasn't much they could to invigorate people to purchase one. Thus, we saw poor overall support, and a poor catalog of games. We are seeing a similar outcome from Nintendo and the 3DS. I think companies are realizing that the handheld market is cannot be dominated from a proprietary machine while the iOS and Android operating systems can offer games that are similarly engaging, and entertaining as those on the PSVita and 3DS.

I'd really, really, love to see Nintendo shift their handheld focus on developing for tablets (and phones). I would play the crap out of Pokémon for the iOS. Similarly for Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing, or Pikmin. Could you imagine a world where we could play an official The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past port from Nintendo on our mobile devices. What about Earthbound? The possibilities are near endless, especially because Nintendo is great at developing games that utilize the best of what hardware offers.

 

[Arnie]

I saw you post this on the first page of the recent Vita thread and I agree.

It was clear from the very start when it was announced that the thing wouldn't stand a chance in today's market.

I disagree that Sony is "wise" though. They have never been. They've always pursued a singular strategy across all their products without giving a damn about the realities of the changing markets. This is exactly what happened with the Walkman.

The worst part is that the incompetent person who is responsible for this trainwreck was promoted and now heads the entire group. Well done, Sony.

I don't think Sony 'is' wise, I think they were wise. They were undoubtably fantastic at targeting mass consumers with their Playstation brand, and they rode that success through the PS1 and PS2 eras, but their ability to digest the wants and desires of mass gaming audiences died off with the current generation, I feel, and it hasn't recovered; the Vita proving even further just how clueless they are.

I always feel the need to post my rationale in Vita threads because I feel this irrational need to state the obvious, even if I know people aren't going to like it.

I've got no hope for Sony next generation, and if it wasn't for Naughty Dog I'd have sold my PS3 already. For what it's worth Microsoft have begun a slide into the wrong direction for my own personal tastes, but they're still well in tune with the mass consumer.

 

[Sviatoslav]

The PS3 lauch was also a complete disaster.

It was just one PR nightmare after another.

Sony can make some great quality games but are so incompetent when it comes to their hardware.

599 US Dollars. Such a bad idea. Sony got overconfident and dumb.

 

[Kyoufu]

Microsoft in tune with the mass consumer?

hahah, I take it you don't watch their E3 conferences :lol

 

[sneaky77]

I find it easier to not post on those type of threads because there are so many people that lack common sense.

Microsoft in tune with the mass consumer?

hahah, I take it you don't watch their E3 conferences :lol

I think Microsofts E3's are definitely geared to the mass consumer and not to the hardcore gamer. May not be a great thing for us that like the games but they definitely are appealing to the tech dads out there.

Do you guys see yourselves getting any of the new consoles on day one? I got the 360 when it first came out, but just ended up playing Halo 2 for about a year. Plus, having got a gaming PC, I can't see myself jumping in with any of the consoles.

Will depend on the games, but I will just get excited about the shiny new toy so yeah probably

 

[Fintan]

Do you guys see yourselves getting any of the new consoles on day one? I got the 360 when it first came out, but just ended up playing Halo 2 for about a year. Plus, having got a gaming PC, I can't see myself jumping in with any of the consoles.

 

[Arnie]

Microsoft in tune with the mass consumer?

hahah, I take it you don't watch their E3 conferences :lol

Oh Kyoufu, you're so naive. You think you or I are the mass consumer? Us who peruse Neogaf, an online video game forum?

Neogaf rates Sony's press conferences consistently highest, yet Sony's hardware and software are consistently at rock bottom in terms of US and UK sales.

Do you guys see yourselves getting any of the new consoles on day one? I got the 360 when it first came out, but just ended up playing Halo 2 for about a year. Plus, having got a gaming PC, I can't see myself jumping in with any of the consoles.

If they have a version of Battlefield 4 on the next Xbox, I'll buy it. If not I'll wait until the inevitable Fifa and Gears combo the year after.

 

[Clegg]

Do you guys see yourselves getting any of the new consoles on day one? I got the 360 when it first came out, but just ended up playing Halo 2 for about a year. Plus, having got a gaming PC, I can't see myself jumping in with any of the consoles.

I'll wait a while.

Theres usually a dearth of quality games when new consoles are released.

 

[PaulLFC]

"So nobody was stupid enough to buy our shares with no voting rights... let's make them cheaper and see what happens!"

Manchester United has been forced to cut the value of its imminent share flotation in New York.

The football club said it would sell shares at $14 each, below the $16-$20 range that it announced just weeks ago.

It is selling shares representing 10% of the club, which will raise $233m (£150m) to pay off some debt, below the $333m hoped for.

The lowering of the debut share price suggests that it could not find buyers at those higher prices.

The business has been controlled since 2005 by billionaire US sports investors the Glazer family, who paid £800m for the club, which this sale now values at double that.

They also own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers American football team.

The shares will begin trading in New York on Friday under the ticker name Manu.

The club currently has £437m of debt and £70m in cash.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19201427

 

[sneaky77]

Man U is too big to fail, I smell a bailout!

 

[Kyoufu]

Do you guys see yourselves getting any of the new consoles on day one? I got the 360 when it first came out, but just ended up playing Halo 2 for about a year. Plus, having got a gaming PC, I can't see myself jumping in with any of the consoles.

I'll get PS4 on day one provided it has free online gaming. Otherwise no sale.

Really can't support Microsoft when they won't even let you use Netflix without paying for their crappy online service.

 

[Clegg]

United are nowhere near in danger of failing.

 

[jtb]

50k is abysmal. Not even in the days when the PS3 was getting outsold by the GBA were things that bad. Sony's game division is probably just hemorrhaging money at this point with bomb after bomb.

 

[K1LLER7]

United are nowhere near in danger of failing.

read it somewhere earlier that the value of the club will be at £1.5bn. This should atleast make it more likely for a takeover.

 

[Arnie]

Just to touch on something I said earlier, if you're still reading Viva, I'm watching the post match press conference now and Brendan Rodgers just said, verbatim, "No update really, he's a player we don't want to sell, and he's very important to me", before eulogising about his abilities as a playmaker in defence.

 

[Clegg]

read it somewhere earlier that the value of the club will be at £1.5bn. This should atleast make it more likely for a takeover.

Glazers aren't looking to sell up though.

They make too much money from United.

We're stuck with them.

 

[Vivalaraza]

I'm actually starting to think that the Glazers were well aware the shares wouldn't sell at the original price and so over valued them originally to ensure when the price was reduced the offering would be fulfilled.

Even at $14 it isn't a great investment but a £1.5bn valuation is pretty fair and they could probably tempt people with the possibility for growth and the "discounted" price.

 

[PaulLFC]

I'm actually starting to think that the Glazers were well aware the shares wouldn't sell at the original price and so over valued them originally to ensure when the price was reduced the offering would be fulfilled.

Even at $14 it isn't a great investment but a £1.5bn valuation is pretty fair and they could probably tempt people with the possibility for growth and the "discounted" price.

People would still be stupid to buy them. No voting rights is the big thing - what are the investors gaining from investing? Nothing from what I can see.

 

[G17]

ITV did a great programme on just how greedy the Glazers are a while back.

(let me know if I should remove the link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSz4-4bTpiA

 

[Clegg]

I'll only be starting to cover the financial markets in my next semester at Uni so I'm not really up to speed yet, but I have a question.

How much will be knocked off the debt? I know the Glazers were looking to remove £75m but will that figure change now that shares will be floating at a lower price? Or was this deal fully underwritten by the banks?