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Football Thread 2012/13 |OT4| Welcome Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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Just sat eating lunch with the GF with SSN on in the background.
She asked what happened and why it's come out now.
I don't pretend to know everything about this disaster but I told her what happened. 96 people went to a football match and didn't come home.
So she asked some more questions about why its come out now and what's been said and what the police did and try to cover up.
I was choking up trying to explain.
She asked what happened and why it's come out now.
I don't pretend to know everything about this disaster but I told her what happened. 96 people went to a football match and didn't come home.
So she asked some more questions about why its come out now and what's been said and what the police did and try to cover up.
I was choking up trying to explain.
The problem with stuff like this is that there's seemingly no distinction between what happened and the attribution of blame.
To say there were Liverpool supporters drunk and at the game without tickets isn't necessarily a lie. Again, you're talking about the 80's. Travelling drunk and without tickets wasn't unusual and it wasn't a problem exclusive to Liverpool.
The problem is when people say those things caused the disaster. Todays findings suggest they didn't. As a result, that has to be taken as fact now until proven otherwise.
But I also think Liverpool fans have a part to play in that general discussion as well. Drunk, ticketless fans didn't cause the disaster, and todays findings confirm the fans weren't to "blame". But that myth has to go away alongside the myth that some Liverpool supporters think that they were whiter than white in the late 80's. On the BBC programme the other night a Liverpool fan sat infront of a camera and flat out said "there were no drunk Liverpool fans". That's a lie that has to be quashed alongside the lie that Liverpool fans "caused" the disaster if everybody is to move on.
LanceVance
Member
Apparently 59 out of the 96 could have been saved. Wow.
It would be wrong not to.
Alongside the quashing of the inquests, accountability and true justice is the next step. It's both massively sad and incredibly relieving to have the truth about that day acknowledged by the highest point of authority, unequivocally, but I want it to go beyond mere acknowledgement, now people need to answer for their actions.
Absolutely. I just hope that proceedings are brought against those found to have broken the law in any way during and since the disaster.
I've warmed to it, like I say. Need to see how it holds up in the full game though, only two weeks away!
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
I get the sentiment but I'm not sure what true justice is in this case, despite it being a praiseworthy phrase.
I think there may be those who are criminally liable for various actions with regards certain policemen and those that authorised them to tamper and skew evidence. I'm not certain (due to not fully understanding the causal facts of the incident) who the the perpetrators of what acts are in relation to the event itself (if we're talking about justice in the sense of criminal liability for wrongdoers).
Wilbury said:
Seems like the only way I can get into FIFA these days is by using the custom settings so that the passing and ball movement physics aren't so excruciatingly slow.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Edit: D(ouble)P(enetration)
Vivalaraza
Member
Kelvin Mackenzie - "I was not sorry then & I'm not sorry now...All I did wrong was tell the truth." (Nov 2006)
Wonder what he has to say now.
Wonder what he has to say now.
I don't really understand what people want though. It has always seemed to me that there were three main causes of the Hillsborough disaster (in no particular order):
1. Ancient stadium that was not fit for purpose and was inherently dangerous.
2. Incompetent police that simply didn't know how to manage events like this.
3. A small minority of uncontrollable football fans.
I'm not saying that Liverpool fans were any better or any worse than other football fans of the '80's, but it was just a sign of the times. This new development heaps more blame on the police, but beyond that, I don't really see what has changed, or know what happens next or even what people want. It's far too complex an incident to pin all the blame on any one entity. Yes, we have got confirmation that the police were incompetent and tried to cover up their failures, but there were a myriad of factors that led to the awful incident.
This isn't intended to offend anyone.
1. Ancient stadium that was not fit for purpose and was inherently dangerous.
2. Incompetent police that simply didn't know how to manage events like this.
3. A small minority of uncontrollable football fans.
I'm not saying that Liverpool fans were any better or any worse than other football fans of the '80's, but it was just a sign of the times. This new development heaps more blame on the police, but beyond that, I don't really see what has changed, or know what happens next or even what people want. It's far too complex an incident to pin all the blame on any one entity. Yes, we have got confirmation that the police were incompetent and tried to cover up their failures, but there were a myriad of factors that led to the awful incident.
This isn't intended to offend anyone.
Well he is on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/KeIvinMacKenzie
I think the coward has changed his Twitter name a bit to avoid stick. I think the 'l' in Kelvin is actually a capital 'i' like I.
Also his bio - "controversy follows me". Disgusting.
It's not a verified account but still. Even if it's a parody, it's nothing to be proud about emulating.
I've not played too much of it, but it's definitely an improvement. I like that you don't have to finesse shot in a one on one with keeper. I slammed a precise blast in yesterday with Lewandoski that would've been saved in prior games.
The heavier ball physics and greater sense of unpredictability in touches are the greatest improvement though, in my opinion.
Free kicks are still gash. Defending is still brilliant.
Can't go into it too in depth now because I'm quite busy with newspaper things, but both criminal and subliminal liability for the events that day are what I and others refer to as justice. Those responsible, if criminally liable (which some are) need to be held account.
A quick example is how the coroner at the time suggested that many of the post-mortems weren't necessary because the cause of death was all the same. That's illegal.
Wonder what David Camerons views are on the Conservative government that chastised football fans for so long.
Thatchers government treated football fans with absolute contempt and disgust. Penned in and left to suffer like pigs. The events of '89 could have happened anywhere and in any year around that time. The erection of the fences was a disaster waiting to happen, and regardless of other circumstances, if they weren't there then lives would have been saved.
I would like to see the government of the time held accountable as well as SYP. But I bet they won't be.
Thatchers government treated football fans with absolute contempt and disgust. Penned in and left to suffer like pigs. The events of '89 could have happened anywhere and in any year around that time. The erection of the fences was a disaster waiting to happen, and regardless of other circumstances, if they weren't there then lives would have been saved.
I would like to see the government of the time held accountable as well as SYP. But I bet they won't be.
There's no evidence that point 3. was in any way a cause of what happened, both the Taylor report and the H.I.P. report today have said as much.
The main thing that the families want is the complete exoneration of their loved ones from any blame (as it has been found that they were in no way to blame for what happened, and that has been confirmed again today).
I would also think that part of the justice both wanted and needed is that those who were involved in the events of the aftermath such as the cover up have proceedings brought against them to be properly held to account for their actions, and to discover why they acted in the way they did in the first place.
Yeah I messed with the custom sliders a fair bit. Added more error, upped the keeper's ability, made the players a bit slower but the passing a bit faster.
This just isn't true at all. Hillsborough hosted netural cup ties before (and since) 1989 because it was one of the best of a bad bunch of stadiums in the country at that time. The stadium coped with huge crowds before and after 1989, and since football was first played at Hillsborough in 1899 the day of the disaster is the only event where anyone has died at the ground watching football.
I like the idea of him ahead of RVP, and, at a later stage, Shinji. He should be freed up a bit to concentrate on his movement*.
*Staying onside.
Milchmonster
Member
Reus can play against Leverkusen this weekend.
Awesome. I'm not sure if he'll play. I can see Klopp giving him a rest and play Götze instead so that there's no risk at all, though.
Awesome. I'm not sure if he'll play. I can see Klopp giving him a rest and play Götze instead so that there's no risk at all, though.
Vivalaraza
Member
I am not sure it's about who is/was to blame anymore.
I think today it has more to do with the way the fans have been blamed for the tragedy and for the despicable nature of the cover up. The Justice campaign wants that corrected. Today goes some way to doing that, the Police finally, officially, have to admit and accept that a significant portion of the blame was theirs.
But more importantly - they need to apologize and people who committed crimes in tampering with evidence need to be charged.
I don't know if that is possible or how easy/difficult that is - but I think that's what people want and it's totally reasonable and right that it happens. People broke the law to suit themselves over such a tragic incident, you can't get away with that. It's been 23 years and they might say sorry but that isn't good enough really.
I scored a fantastic goal with Lewandowski; won the ball just outside the box and sprayed it wide to Götze, he ran with it and then played a through ball into the box. Flicked the R stick and Lewa poked it under the keeper's arms and ran round the other side, then smashed it into an open net. Was a fucking beauty.
Yeah, I'm not fiddling with formations and tactics yet. He plays as a LWB by default, like in RL. I've given up trying to make diagonal runs with him, as the center is already pretty crowded with Principino, Andreino da Brescia and Arturo. He's really good on the wing too.
"Just sat alone, read the report and cried my eyes out. I dont know how anyone could do this to innocent people. Its wrong on so many levels."
https://twitter.com/Joey7Barton/statuses/245873079920779264
Joey Barton will always be Joey Barton but The one good thing he has done in his career is support the families who lost a loved one.
On his blog there is all sorts he has done to help.
https://twitter.com/Joey7Barton/statuses/245873079920779264
Joey Barton will always be Joey Barton but The one good thing he has done in his career is support the families who lost a loved one.
On his blog there is all sorts he has done to help.
When you treat people like animals, some will behave thus. It would be a mistake to think that if the fences were up today there would be any difference in behaviour.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
I thought he was looking more like his old self when he came on in the So'ton game. Good movement.
Wilbury said:
I keep player speed the same but up their acceleration because I don't feel like players burst into sprints like they should.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Trouble is when you play online multi it goes back to default and thus sucks again.
Well, fair enough. I completely agree with your second comment and by referring to Hillsborough as an "ancient stadium" I was talking more about the general state of how fans across the country were treated at football matches. Looking back with today's standards in mind, it looks absolutely awful, but in its day, I don't suppose Hillsborough was abnormal at all. And as you said, it could easily have happened anywhere, anytime.
And I completely agree that the relevant government/regulatory officials are, in my mind at least, highly culpable along with the police.
And I suppose this isn't about the causes anymore, in that regard Hillsborough left a lasting legacy of bringing stands up to scratch to ensure that something like it never happened again, and the police have long been considered to be the main cause of the tragedy through their incompetence. The debate now is more surrounding the cover up. The most shocking thing today was the 164 significantly altered statements, but realistically, surely there is almost zero chance of any convictions brought against any individual police officers.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Can someone surmise the interesting points about this?
Playing as arsenal I got commentary about Song/RVP/Arshavin and Chamak (lol) wanting to leave. All in one game. Also in the same game they were shit talking Giroud's inability to score.
Really interested to see how that carries over to career mode long term. FIFA 12 made some crazy, crazy transfers in career mode last yaer
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