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[LegoArmo]

People have been going on and on about the death of 'Tiki Taka' here and elsewhere.

How is spending hours in training drilling into teams how to keep the ball and use it with creativity and intelligence suddenly a bad idea? 'Tiki Taka' is at it's strongest when a team scores a goal or two, but is at it's weakest when the team concedes and/or the opponent line up denying space in the final third.

That problem isn't exclusive to Tiki Taka as every team finds breaking down opponents lined up around the box difficult, but it is the most common strategy to provoke that kind of tactical response.

What Pep need to find is what every team needs to find; a creative, collective solution to beating disciplined and superb defending that utilizes a large number of players to deny the opponent space.

They lost 5-0 on aggregate, I think a lot more went wrong than coming up against a disciplined team.

Possession is fine, but there's no reason you can't do that and have your keeper stay on his line and your entire defence not be in the opponents half.

 

[ShogunDarius]

Nah

LvG will take his willy out, slap Rooney across the face and sell him to Inter.

I can honestly say I want you to get van gaal just so the odds Rooney is sold to another countries league are increased and we don't have to put up with him anymore. No doubt getting the England call up again. :/

 

[Arnie]

You guys do realize that FDB, LVG and PEP all have the same fucking style no?

That said FDB is a nice guy and he did win us 4 championships.

Yes.

Although there's no fucking way LVG gets United to play that way. Cursed, rot-filled plank of clank that lot. They're like a blob of hair that no matter how you try and style it always falls into a natural bowl of 4-4-2.

 

[LegoArmo]

LvG plays a more clank-ified version with strict positioning, not as free-form.

 

[GQman2121]

I wonder what our season would have looked like if Pep accepted our job and implemented these tactics with our squad. :shivers

 

[KidA Seven]

Yes.

Although there's no fucking way LVG gets United to play that way. Cursed, rot-filled plank of clank that lot. They're like a blob of hair that no matter how you try and style it always falls into a natural bowl of 4-4-2.

You're lying to yourself. If Brenton can get Dalglish's shit side to play good football, LVG can do it with United.

 

[Mascot]

Hope Chelsea win tonight if only for the look on Maureen's face when they get obliterated in the final.

I normally support any English club in Europe but weirdly can't bring myself to do it on this occasion.

 

[subtles]

They lost 5-0 on aggregate, I think a lot more went wrong than coming up against a disciplined team.

Possession is fine, but there's no reason you can't do that and have your keeper stay on his line and your entire defence not be in the opponents half.

Yes. Madrid were better than Bayern in every department over the two legs, as was Bayern vs Barca last year. It had very little to do with the ability of the players to keep the ball, though.

It reminds me of the game we had vs Chelsea at the weekend. While there was nothing we could do about Gerrard slipping, sending endless crosses into the box or committing numbers forward and losing our shape was not the way to win the match. We were doing fine patiently finding a solution, as we have done many times this season, until our players threw caution to the wind. When we played City we had many players defending deep when they attacked but they carved us open.

Hell, when a team counter attacks they leave spaces that can be taken advantage of by moving the ball up the field quickly.

within the framework of this philosophy are many, many ways to play. What made Bayern so scary last season was that they knew how to play most of them. I just find the premature death proclamations a bit distasteful.

 

[Gambit]

btw

Pep acknowledged that he went for the wrong tactics.

yes, I thought that was very good of him. He said something along the lines of "maybe the tactics didn't fit these players". That shows a readiness to adjust said tactics (or the players!). I suppose they could just buy Messi. What's he go for these days? 5, 6 million?


For me, personally, it was a very good result. When I switched the game off and worked on my dissertation instead, I was more productive during the remaining hour than I have been the last two weeks.

 

[bjaelke]

Atletico gonna get Liverpooled.

 

[LegoArmo]

Best football to watch is counter attack after counter attack, end to end stuff. Keeping possession like Bayern do, slows the game down, yes, and gives the opposing players time to get into position and organised. It does feel like sometimes they're scared to take a risk because they might lose the ball.

Teams like Liverpool, City and Real Madrid found happy mediums for the most part this season.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Torres brace.

 

[Ushojax]

Best football to watch is counter attack after counter attack, end to end stuff. Keeping possession like Bayern do, slows the game down, yes, and gives the opposing players time to get into position and organised. It does feel like sometimes they're scared to take a risk because they might lose the ball.

Teams like Liverpool, City and Real Madrid found happy mediums for the most part this season.

Pep-ball works if you press well and move the ball forward quickly, like his Barca did. Bayern didn't do that last night, they were sluggish throughout and lost their composure after the 2-0. The biggest criticism I could put to them is that their first instinct is to move the ball sideways. That doesn't win football matches.

 

[Blablurn]

yes, I thought that was very good of him. He said something along the lines of "maybe the tactics didn't fit these players". That shows a readiness to adjust said tactics (or the players!). I suppose they could just buy Messi. What's he go for these days? 5, 6 million?


For me, personally, it was a very good result. When I switched the game off and worked on my dissertation instead, I was more productive during the remaining hour than I have been the last two weeks.

lol


I also need to go back to my thesis today :/ I postponed it over the weeks because I was like "lets wait till after bayern" lol.

 

[Yen]

Was watching that Messi passing video, which got me wondering: why did Barça sign Eidor Gudjohnson?

 

[LanceVance]

Was watching that Messi passing video, which got me wondering: why did Barça sign Eidor Gudjohnson?

Why would you not want to sign an Icelandic God?

 

[Sviatoslav]

Pep did technicalleh fuck Bayern by winning them the league back in March. They've lost their rhythm and clank.

It's no coincidence that Shakhtar's and Zenit's form drops dramatically past the group stages.

You don't think a 3 month long break has nothing to do with it?

 

[Carbonox]

oh barcelona could still win a trophy this season: the separatist cup http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/girona-v-barca-catalonia-cup-semis

 

[kmax]

oh barcelona could still win a trophy this season: the separatist cup http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/girona-v-barca-catalonia-cup-semis

Aren't they in the contention for the Possession Trophy?

That's always something.

 

[LegoArmo]

oh barcelona could still win a trophy this season: the separatist cup http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/girona-v-barca-catalonia-cup-semis

Maybe Newcastle can win something like that when Scotland gets independence.

 

[Vivalaraza]

As I said before, Bayerns midfielders just aren't as adept at circulating the ball quickly.

Pep-Barca also had the little matter of Messi in their armoury.

 

[Carbonox]

Maybe Newcastle can win something like that when Scotland gets independence.

hip dip hip

Spoiler

i would take that

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

As I said before, Bayerns midfielders just aren't as adept at circulating the ball quickly.

Pep-Barca also had the little matter of Messi in their armoury.

Bayern will look way better when they have a central focal point up front, someone who can cleverly push and pull the opposition's back line and create space for their team-mates.

 

[Blablurn]

Bayern will look way better when they have a central focal point up front, someone who can cleverly push and pull the opposition's back line and create space for their team-mates.

I want to believe.

Thiago could have been that person.

 

[Yurt]

You don't think a 3 month long break has nothing to do with it?

That's kinda my point

 

[Shatner's Bassoon]

I wonder what our season would have looked like if Pep accepted our job and implemented these tactics with our squad. :shivers

Just imagining Ramires in that system is hilarious.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Spurs deny making approaches to any other manager.

Yeah, okay.

 

[Yurt]

Verratti "I was a Juve fan but now football is just a job for me"

stop talking.

As I said before, Bayerns midfielders just aren't as adept at circulating the ball quickly.

Pep-Barca also had the little matter of Messi in their armoury.

just say it Viva

Germans can't do tiki taka. They can hide Pep's instructions in their sock but they're still Maschinen. Ribery and Robben are possibly the only players that can do something out of nothing.

tiki taka requires someone with a vision that can pierce defenses.

 

[subtles]

btw

Pep acknowledged that he went for the wrong tactics.

If you separate tactics from philosophy, then yes. There were a number of things he could have done differently and he's better qualified to explain it than I am.

Bayern moved the ball too slowly and were bereft of ideas in the final third. The number of ways Barcelona opened opponents up in their prime was astonishing. Just when you thought you'd seen it all, they would show you something out of this world. The same tactics that worked at Barcelona won't work at Bayern, but the basic framework of:

- short passing and movement
- working the ball through various channels
- maintaining possession

can be adapted to suit the strengths of the team. Bayern's greatest strength is the physicality and intensity that they combine with technical proficiency. Pep needs to adapt that into the team.

The funny thing is possession isn't exclusive to 'Tiki Taka' (it needs a new name) as any team can give you the ball and force you to leave spaces so that they can counter.

What would you do then? Give the ball back?

 

[FootballFan]

Pep does adapt.
With us he used the:

4-3-3
3-4-3
3-5-2
4-1-4-1

and countless other variations.

When it did not work out, 4-3-3 is the default we went to. Zlatan worked out for 6 or so months then it all fell apart with him and the club.

He brought in players to freshen it all up and it worked quite well overall if you ask me. People who down play Guardiola's achievements at Barcelona are being extremely disingenuous.

He turned us into world beaters when the previous season we had been humiliated 4-1 by the shit that is Real Madrid Football Club and ended 3rd in a 2 team league.

He sold off star players so the youngsters could have a shot. Busquets and Pedro are class players today because of the trust placed in them by Guardiola back then.

Some transfers were obviously misses. But that happens to every coach.

Mourinho is a genius, yet he has lost more matches to Pep than he has won.

His record against Guardiola: three wins, seven losses and five draws, including Mourinho's worst defeat in his career.

Stats don't tell the entire story but it is what it is.

Is Pep the greatest coach, maybe, maybe not, I don't know but he is definitely one of the best in the world.

He is so good that he won the league too early, so early that it affected him and his team negatively.

 

[Sviatoslav]

That's kinda my point

Ahh, I thought you were saying that they win their leagues early and as a result suffer in European competitions later in the season.

 

[Ushojax]

lol we've bothered to put out a club statement saying we have not made any official approaches to other clubs regarding a new manager

Sherwood must have had a hissy fit.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Verratti "I was a Juve fan but now football is just a job for me"

stop talking.


just say it Viva

Germans can't do tiki taka. They can hide Pep's instructions in their sock but they're still Maschinen. Ribery and Robben are possibly the only players that can do something out of nothing.

Ribery :lol

Quite possibly the worst player to ever make the balon d'Or shortlist

Carvajal just battered him off the pitch in the first 5 mins at Bernabeu and he was gone. Awful.

 

[KidA Seven]

You know why I enjoyed Pep losing? He didn't get to do his little sip of the water bottle after his team scores a goal. Fuck that move.

 

[Yurt]

Ahh, I thought you were saying that they win their leagues early and as a result suffer in European competitions later in the season.

Sviat I'm not THAT stupid -_-

btw

Pep acknowledged that he went for the wrong tactics.

Baby Bla, the tactics or formation doesn't matter as much as the philosophy. Even if you go back to 4-2-3-1, you're still going to end up cramming every single player in the opposition half and sideway-pass them to death.

Sure, continue to use tiki-taka, but you need a plan B against sides like Madrid and BVB.

Quite possibly the worst player to ever make the balon d'Or shortlist

Nah.

Iniesta.

 

[Sviatoslav]

He sold off star players so the youngsters could have a shot. Busquets and Pedro are class players today because of the trust placed in them by Guardiola back then.

wat. Thought you could sneak that past me, did you?

 

[Gambit]

lol


I also need to go back to my thesis today :/ I postponed it over the weeks because I was like "lets wait till after bayern" lol.

See, football is just a distraction. We can go back to our own work instead!

Spoiler

:-(

If you separate tactics from philosophy, then yes. There were a number of things he could have done differently and he's better qualified to explain it than I am.

Bayern moved the ball too slowly and were bereft of ideas in the final third. The number of ways Barcelona opened opponents up in their prime was astonishing. Just when you thought you'd seen it all, they would show you something out of this world. The same tactics that worked at Barcelona won't work at Bayern, but the basic framework of:

- short passing and movement
- working the ball through various channels
- maintaining possession

can be adapted to suit the strengths of the team. Bayern's greatest strength is the physicality and intensity that they combine with technical proficiency. Pep needs to adapt that into the team.

The funny thing is possession isn't exclusive to 'Tiki Taka' (it needs a new name) as any team can give you the ball and force you to leave spaces so that they can counter.

What would you do then? Give the ball back?

Great post. He just has to integrate the German style and his own vision. Like Bayern did last year. Heynckes focus was on defensive stabilty, which is just not Pep's thing. But if he could combine some of it with his style (and more anarchy in front) then it'll be great.

Personally, I don't consider it "the end of Bayern" at all. They'll be back stronger next year.

PS: Just downloading Child of Light for Wii U. Anyone playing it in here?

 

[Yurt]

93 points and we're still not champions (we need two more)

Sikaffy.png am cry

 

[Yen]

Ribery :lol

Quite possibly the worst player to ever make the balon d'Or shortlist

And to think I mocked my dad for saying Ribery and Robben were overrated!

 

[Carbonox]

Pep does adapt.
With us he used the:

4-3-3
3-4-3
3-5-2
4-1-4-1

and countless other variations.

When it did not work out, 4-3-3 is the default we went to. Zlatan worked out for 6 or so months then it all fell apart with him and the club.

He brought in players to freshen it all up and it worked quite well overall if you ask me. People who down play Guardiola's achievements at Barcelona are being extremely disingenuous.

He turned us into world beaters when the previous season we had been humiliated 4-1 by the shit that is Real Madrid Football Club and ended 3rd in a 2 team league.

He sold off star players so the youngsters could have a shot. Busquets and Pedro are class players today because of the trust placed in them by Guardiola back then.

Some transfers were obviously misses. But that happens to every coach.

Mourinho is a genius, yet he has lost more matches to Pep than he has won.

His record against Guardiola: three wins, seven losses and five draws, including Mourinho's worst defeat in his career.

Stats don't tell the entire story but it is what it is.

Is Pep the greatest coach, maybe, maybe not, I don't know but he is definitely one of the best in the world.

He is so good that he won the league too early, so early that it affected him and his team negatively.

I think with Bayern, Pep will need time to get the right group of players to match his system/s. It seems clear that there is still a lot of work to be done with the players he has currently and has been gradually trying to get the right type of players in to benefit him. Thiago for example. I guess Gotze could (?) over time turn out perfect for his system too because of the type of player he is.

It's going to be hard though because Barcelona were one of a kind under him. He had the right specific personnel for the system he required. As if he built his system around the players at his disposal as well as building the players around it itself. There was a perfect relationship.

He has none of these players at Bayern and so the adjustment will be at times painful as it is sometimes seamless (we've seen some great Bayern performances this season when things click). He just won't make them as good as his own Barca without a change in some of the players I reckon. Could be more to it that the Bayern fans might be able to explain but this is just an outsider's view.

I rate Guardiola massively - as people have said before his Barcelona were sensational and the best team in the world under him. He's a stubborn bastard at times, sure, but I think we'll only see improvements, not regression under him at Bayern.

 

[Cairnsay]

Was it money that mainly swayed Cabaye away from Newcastle? What other reasons lie behind the players' complete lack of motivation these days I wonder? It is a bad coincidence that the downslide came for them after Pardew headbutted meyler. I though things would get better when Joe left.



It is unfortunate how much one player's leave can do so much damage to a team. I was afraid this would be the case for Chelsea when Mata left. Pardew's got to come up with better tactics though based on their current weaknesses without Cabaye. The team needs to spend on a worthy successor to Cabaye, at least a potential successor. Sorry to see you going through such turbulent times with the club, the most important thing for this season is no matter how bad things get relegation will be impossible and this summer will hopefully give the club enough time to plan ahead and find necessary replacements.



De Boer is really great though, with Van Gaal not happening De Boer is the next best thing, easily for me. Aside the odd 4-1 loss with Ajax at a cup final (I think it was a cup final), he has been consistently doing a great job with Ajax.

To be fair to Cabeye I think money was secondary, the primary reason he wanted to move was play for a team capable of winning leagues and playing in the Champions League. How we were able to buy him for £6million, then hold onto him for two and half seasons is beyond me. The fact that Moyes completely overlooked him in the summer and bought Fellani is yet another indication that he was in over his head in terms of knowing what his team needs.

As for the current squads lack of motivation, I would say, in my far from expert opinion, that its a perfect storm of having nothing left to play for this season, a lot of them knowing for one reason or another they won't be at the club next year, and biggest of all a complete lack of confidence/respect for Pardew. Just look at teams like Southampton and Stoke, safe from relegation, unable/very unlikely to qualify for europe, yet they're still playing to a high standard, Hughes and Pochettino demand it of them. Wheras Alan Pardew is going round saying things like 'Ideally we'd like to try and win at least one game before the end of the season.' Inspiring stuff.

 

[Yen]

I'm gutted for Xabi. Even if he left Liverpool in less than favourable circumstances, he's still a legend and a top bloke.

 

[subtles]

41 - Liverpool have made more errors leading directly to goal attempts than any other side in the Premier League this season. Slips.

Atlético, please.

 

[Blablurn]

Anyway, the defeat was deserved and I congratulate Madrid GAF again.

 

[Blablurn]

Beautiful.

 

[Lightning]

I hope Spurs get Frank De Boer but I will cry if Bergkamp agrees to go with him and be assistant at Spurs.

 

[Clegg]

I'm gutted for Xabi. Even if he left Liverpool in less than favourable circumstances, he's still a legend and a top bloke.

I'm trying to feel sorry for him, but I really can't.

It was sheer stupidity on his part. 3-0 up and he cannons into a tackle he never needed to make.

 

[Ushojax]

I hope Spurs get Frank De Boer but I will cry if Bergkamp agrees to go with him and be assistant at Spurs.

That would be so weird, I can't really see it happening. We will probably make FDB take Steffen Freund instead.

Atlético, please.

Pshhh, that like being ranked highest for shots off target. Tottenham have made the most errors leading to goals (20!).

 

[Yurt]

Atlético, please.

Any idea why Brendan was playing narrow too...?

 

[Elchele]

He made some mistakes but who can blame him? It's his first year. And remember. Heynckes first year wasn't that good either with 3 second places in one year. Love Pep <3.

you're just a bad joke now bla