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[Stubo]

Rooney is getting all the stick for something which wasn't just his fault.

Yes he didn't give Baines enough cover, but he also created the goal and was on point with his passing. The awful corner and the shot he dragged wide are the 2 things I can remember him doing obviously wrong going forward (I was pretty drunk though.)

It's not a role that he would've wanted to play, and I don't think he's being given enough credit for getting us to the tournament in the first place with his 7 goals. Talk of dropping him instead of just using him in a role that he's more comfortable with is ridiculous. It's not a popular opinion but I don't think Sturridge has been setting the world on fire since the league season ended either. I don't see him getting the abuse that Rooney and Welbeck have been.

This may sound like a leave britney cleverley alone post, but I really think that it's lazy to point the finger at Rooney and ignore the other players who didn't contribute anything meaningful last night.

 

[K1LLER7]

When did Ox become the saviour and an automatic starter for England?

I find him to be one of the biggest disappointments in an Arsenal shirt.

I think he's a good olayer for England. Was probably our best attacking player in the warm up game he played in. Brings something different, likes to run at his players and carry the ball forwards. Would offer some cover on the left wing too.

 

[Yurt]

I would consider playing Shaw over Baines in the next game. Baines is a fantastic player, but when you lose your first match you have to start considering your options.

Oh Yurt you're so dc <3

It looks phenomenal, doesn't it?

SORRY hahah. I rarely check the thread during the WC now

and it really does! Even though it's not even close to its final form.

 

[Bumhead]

It's not a role that he would've wanted to play, and I don't think he's being given enough credit for getting us to the tournament in the first place with his 7 goals. Talk of dropping him instead of just using him in a role that he's more comfortable with is ridiculous. It's not a popular opinion but I don't think Sturridge has been setting the world on fire since the league season ended either. I don't see him getting the abuse that Rooney and Welbeck have been.

So you want to defend Rooney on the basis he set up a goal last night, but choose to criticise Sturridge who scored it?

Assessing an overall performance on one moment is pretty flakey at the best of times but it's also contradictory as hell in the way you just did it.

Rooney was shit last night. Completely ineffective on the game and looked lost at sea. I'm not convinced there's a place for him in this system. Sturridge has earned that spot up top on merit and the central position behind should be Barkley's or Lallana's.

 

[3Sixty]

When did Ox become the saviour and an automatic starter for England?

I find him to be one of the biggest disappointments in an Arsenal shirt.

Its that Saints DNA mate.

Everyone believes.

 

[Vivalaraza]

Rooney is getting all the stick for something which wasn't just his fault.

Yes he didn't give Baines enough cover, but he also created the goal and was on point with his passing. The awful corner and the shot he dragged wide are the 2 things I can remember him doing obviously wrong going forward (I was pretty drunk though.)

It's not a role that he would've wanted to play, and I don't think he's being given enough credit for getting us to the tournament in the first place with his 7 goals. Talk of dropping him instead of just using him in a role that he's more comfortable with is ridiculous. It's not a popular opinion but I don't think Sturridge has been setting the world on fire since the league season ended either. I don't see him getting the abuse that Rooney and Welbeck have been.

This may sound like a leave britney cleverley alone post, but I really think that it's lazy to point the finger at Rooney and ignore the other players who didn't contribute anything meaningful last night.

Rooney deserves all the stick he gets, he is an obvious target but that's because he is meant to be the star player. Comes with the territory.

I do agree about Sturridge though I don't think he's been that great for England. But would you really put Rooney up front ahead of him. No real reason to do that other than reputation. Also Rooney is a lot slower than the rest of the England attack, not just in terms of raw speed but speed of thought too, it feels like he gets left behind almost.

 

[Arnie]

Even though I'm disappointed with last night's result I couldn't be happier with how Sterling and Sturridge played. If we do go on to do something in this tournament, as opposed to our last shit-show at the Euros, it'll be down to those two. You already saw the improvement in how we played versus 2012; Italy were the ones playing counter attack here.

 

[Sato Koiji]

England lost but Rooneys cross assist for the first goal was a thing of beauty.

Ingerland will be back!

 

[Wilbur]

Rooney is getting all the stick for something which wasn't just his fault.

Yes he didn't give Baines enough cover, but he also created the goal and was on point with his passing. The awful corner and the shot he dragged wide are the 2 things I can remember him doing obviously wrong going forward (I was pretty drunk though.)

It's not a role that he would've wanted to play, and I don't think he's being given enough credit for getting us to the tournament in the first place with his 7 goals. Talk of dropping him instead of just using him in a role that he's more comfortable with is ridiculous. It's not a popular opinion but I don't think Sturridge has been setting the world on fire since the league season ended either. I don't see him getting the abuse that Rooney and Welbeck have been.

This may sound like a leave britney cleverley alone post, but I really think that it's lazy to point the finger at Rooney and ignore the other players who didn't contribute anything meaningful last night.

Sturridge was far better than Rooney was last night. He was good in close quarters situations, dropped off to the wing and into midfield intelligently, and combined well with Welbeck. Rooney put in a great cross that I think lots of players would have been capable of.

The argument for including Rooney throughout all his shitty play is because he's theoretically supposed to be capable of things the rest of the team aren't, but he doesn't demonstrate that at all. He was rancid defensively all game, and did his usual thing of trying to win the game by himself in the second half.

 

[3Sixty]

The Wilshere for Hendo sub still annoys me.

Would have been better chucking Lambert on.

 

[K1LLER7]

Play a diamond Woy...

---------------- Hart ----------------

Johnson - Cahill - Jagielka - Shaw

------------- Gerrard ------------

----Chamberlain --- Henderson ---

------------ Sterling -------------

-------- Sturridge - Rooney -------

 

[Gareth Bale]

The Wilshere for Hendo sub still annoys me.

Would have been better chucking Lambert on.

It was too late for Wilshere at that point.

That was round about when Italy were defending with everyone except Balotelli.

 

[Yurt]

I think I'm in love with Sterling

I liked him in 2012-2013 too, but this season he's really something else!

 

[Salvadora]

2 Aurier assists last night.

Wonder if Wenger was watching.

 

[Shatner's Bassoon]

One thing we can all agree on, Gabriel Paletta has the worst hair of the world cup.

 

[Broder Salsa]

One thing we can all agree on, Gabriel Paletta has the worst hair of the world cup.

You can feel the desperation looking at his hair.

 

[Bumhead]

The argument for including Rooney throughout all his shitty play is because he's theoretically supposed to be capable of things the rest of the team aren't, but he doesn't demonstrate that at all. He was rancid defensively all game, and did his usual thing of trying to win the game by himself in the second half.

I listened to Talksport after the Honduras friendly for a bit, and Collymore (who I normally detest and don't listen to) made this exact point about Rooney.

That Rooney, the one we look to to produce moments of class out of nothing, is done. It doesn't exist anymore at International level.

If that is the case, and I agree it is, then he should start being picked on merit for his contribution to the team rather than an expectation that he's the man who is going to produce in situations for us. And on THAT basis he shouldn't even be playing right now.

 

[Splatt]

I can't believe Tim Cahill scored another header.

How the fuck does he do it?

 

[Yurt]

One thing we can all agree on, Gabriel Paletta has the worst hair of the world cup.

you know, that's all he ever wanted

for people to call it 'hair'

he has hair

he's not 100% bald

who's Paletta? The guy with the hair.

life is gud

 

[bjaelke]

He's clearly trying to steal Sterling's boots because Chiellini also wanted a pair of red ones.

 

[Stubo]

So you want to defend Rooney on the basis he set up a goal last night, but choose to criticise Sturridge who scored it?

Assessing an overall performance on one moment is pretty flakey at the best of times but it's also contradictory as hell in the way you just did it.

Rooney was shit last night. Completely ineffective on the game and looked lost at sea. I'm not convinced there's a place for him in this system. Sturridge has earned that spot up top on merit and the central position behind should be Barkley's or Lallana's.

I'm not going to take anything away from Sturridge with the goal because he still had to find the finish when the cross came in, and I'm not suggesting that he should be dropped - merely comparing his recent performances and lack of comparative criticism.

From what I remember he had a good moment (assist), a bad moment (their first goal), a dragged shot and the awful corner - but besides that nothing too horrendous. I don't think he was ever going to be comfortable playing in a role which required him to track all the way back to cover Baines while also being far enough up the pitch to contribute in a meaningful way going forward. He's not a winger.

Rooney deserves all the stick he gets, he is an obvious target but that's because he is meant to be the star player. Comes with the territory.

I do agree about Sturridge though I don't think he's been that great for England. But would you really put Rooney up front ahead of him. No real reason to do that other than reputation. Also Rooney is a lot slower than the rest of the England attack, not just in terms of raw speed but speed of thought too, it feels like he gets left behind almost.

I completely agree about the star player thing, and I don't think that it's incorrect to say that he's not living up to the expectations we have of him - however I don't think that he's far enough away from them to be considered worse than his competition in the team.

I never said that I'd start Rooney up top ahead of Sturridge, because I think he's the better option for it - I just used him as a comparison to demonstrate why I think the criticism is over the top.

Sturridge was far better than Rooney was last night. He was good in close quarters situations, dropped off to the wing and into midfield intelligently, and combined well with Welbeck. Rooney put in a great cross that I think lots of players would have been capable of.

The argument for including Rooney throughout all his shitty play is because he's theoretically supposed to be capable of things the rest of the team aren't, but he doesn't demonstrate that at all. He was rancid defensively all game, and did his usual thing of trying to win the game by himself in the second half.

I'm not convinced that other players who could've taken Rooney's spot last night would have made a cross of that quality, but of course it is possible.

We're always going to be divided on what our ideal starting 11 is, of course - but I just think that it's worth having him in the team. Even if he's having a bad game he can still create something from nothing while other players can have a good game and not be capable of any end product. If we can get Rooney on form, we're really on to something.

 

[Yurt]

I can't believe Tim Cahill scored another header.

How the fuck does he do it?

The Pedro syndrome. No one marks him because everyone thinks he's shite and a nonentity.

Who do you support in the WC this time dude?

He's clearly trying to steal Sterling's boots because Chiellini also wanted a pair of red ones.

http://i.imgur.com/11DMbju.jpg[img][/QUOTE]
Chiellini the cunt was clearly trying to HURT him. "Where does it hurt? Here? *squeezes harder*"

 

[Splatt]

The Pedro syndrome. No one marks him because everyone thinks he's shite and a nonentity.

Who do you support in the WC this time dude?

Bosnia & Herzegovina

http://youtu.be/hy3lBnSQGrA?t=1m

Spoiler

And Costa Rica

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Hopefully Sterling's stamina improves as he gets older. That's probably the biggest match of his career and he played the entirety, so it's understandable that he ran out of steam in the 80th minute, but would be nice if we can fix that.

In hindsight, I'm massively annoyed that we conceded the winner to a piece of play that we'd been warned about 6 or so times already

 

[brokenbeans]

Two wins and we are though nothing has changed.

 

[Yurt]

Two wins and we are though nothing has changed.

you have three points less than Costa Rica.

Bosnia & Herzegovina

http://youtu.be/hy3lBnSQGrA?t=1m

Spoiler

And Costa Rica

B&H <3 I hope they go all the way to the final.

 

[Bumhead]

I'm not going to take anything away from Sturridge with the goal because he still had to find the finish when the cross came in, and I'm not suggesting that he should be dropped - merely comparing his recent performances and lack of comparative criticism.

From what I remember he had a good moment (assist), a bad moment (their first goal), a dragged shot and the awful corner - but besides that nothing too horrendous. I don't think he was ever going to be comfortable playing in a role which required him to track all the way back to cover Baines while also being far enough up the pitch to contribute in a meaningful way going forward. He's not a winger.

No he isn't. But, his one moment of genuine quality did come while he was out there.

My problem with Rooney is when he dropped back in and played through the middle. He was completely ineffective and contributed nothing. It's not just about the moments where he was on the ball, it's about the whole picture of how much he got on it in the first place. He didn't do enough to influence the game wherever he was playing. He's a square peg in an attacking lineup of otherwise round holes.

Not specifically aimed at you, but the work rate thing needs to stop too. Defending a player on the basis of work rate when there's nothing else to defend him for is when it's time to stop. There are lads on here who will run around a bit for £300k a week. We had a player in League One called Lee Peacock who ran about a lot and clapped the fans after matches etc. It's the last defence for the indefensible. If people are suggesting Rooney should be playing because he works hard then he shouldn't be in the team.

 

[Yen]

I'm reading Freakonomics. Very good book. At the start of each chapter, the author has a paragraph from the NYT saying how great the author is. m8

 

[Stubo]

No he isn't. But, his one moment of genuine quality did come while he was out there.

My problem with Rooney is when he dropped back in and played through the middle. He was completely ineffective and contributed nothing. It's not just about the moments where he was on the ball, it's about the whole picture of how much he got on it in the first place. He didn't do enough to influence the game wherever he was playing. He's a square peg in an attacking lineup of otherwise round holes.

Not specifically aimed at you, but the work rate thing needs to stop too. Defending a player on the basis of work rate when there's nothing else to defend him for is when it's time to stop. There are lads on here who will run around a bit for £300k a week. We had a player in League One called Lee Peacock who ran about a lot and clapped the fans after matches etc. It's the last defence for the indefensible. If people are suggesting Rooney should be playing because he works hard then he shouldn't be in the team.

Fair points of course, and I'd never defend a player purely on work rate. Running around is useless without anything to show for it. It's one matter to constantly be covering passing channels and intercepting the ball, but entirely another to just put yourself about the pitch to no effect. I would however say that he does tend to get some joy from his movement.

I still think he's worth playing, this would be my chosen team.

------------------- Hart ---------------------

Johnson - Cahill - Jagielka - Baines

--------Gerrard --- Henderson ---------

Sterling ---- Rooney ----- Welbeck/Lallana

----------------Sturridge --------------------

I'm reading Freakonomics. Very good book. At the start of each chapter, the author has a paragraph from the NYT saying how great the author is. m8

Edit: Hell yes I love this book!!

 

[Clegg]

Scholes pushing for Rooney to play up front.

Think he knows that's the only position he actually excels at now.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

For me, the greatest indicator of a good, effective work rate is protecting the players behind you, even if it means removing yourself from a potential counterattacking situation. Was Rooney doing that last night? Fuck no. The odd 30 yard sprint to try and win the ball back isn't enough on the wing. You have to be constantly moving, talking with your fullback to prevent 2-on-1s, tracking your opposition fullback, putting your energy into helping the team with pure positioning.

Rooney's workrate: Misdirected and inconsistently applied
Milner's workrate: Pointless
Welbeck's workrate:Good

 

[Shanks D Zoro]

Hopefully Sterling's stamina improves as he gets older. That's probably the biggest match of his career and he played the entirety, so it's understandable that he ran out of steam in the 80th minute, but would be nice if we can fix that.

In hindsight, I'm massively annoyed that we conceded the winner to a piece of play that we'd been warned about 6 or so times already

tad harsh to use that game as a barometer of anything. He will likely never play in those type of conditions again, well at least not till 2022 maybe.

 

[WJD]

I do think there are plenty of positives to take from last night, but our struggles to break down a relatively organised team in the latter half hour of the game was a big worry. Lambert seemed like an obvious substitution too that was never made. Also thought Rooney was okay on the ball but laboured as fuck off it. Sterling promising with a tendency to run into trouble a bit. Sturridge threatening and Welbeck probably our best player in the first half. Got a few worries about central midfield but there's not much we can do to change it considering the personnel available.

Still, was a great atmosphere in the pub and from what I saw of Costa Rica and Uruguay we should be able to beat them both.

Been an absolutely cracking tournament so far.

 

[kharma45]

The Rooney apologists on football focus are sickening. He doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the England team for the next game after that showing last night.

 

[Broder Salsa]

I can't figure out any decent bets on the Switzerland match, help me dear threesixty

 

[GorillaJu]

Didn't Sturridge come off with an injury? He may not be fit for the next game - would probably mean Welbeck, Sterling, Lallana, Rooney as the attacking quartet.

 

[Fintan]

The Rooney apologists on football focus are sickening. He doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the England team for the next game after that showing last night.

Yeah, saying he should be in the number 10 position is ridiculous. They didn't even mention how good Sterling was there and how England faded once Sterling was pushed out wide to accommodate Rooney.

 

[WJD]

Didn't Sturridge come off with an injury? He may not be fit for the next game - would probably mean Welbeck, Sterling, Lallana, Rooney as the attacking quartet.

Was only a dead leg, he should be fine.

 

[Bumhead]

tad harsh to use that game as a barometer of anything. He will likely never play in those type of conditions again, well at least not till 2022 maybe.

Yeah.

Also the more I think about last nights game the more I think Italy played a blinder in that second half in every way. This isn't a vintage Italian side in any respect, it's beatable and I think we should have beat it. But as soon as they went 2-1 up it was an almost perfect execution of neutralising a game of football. And in those conditions, they knew full well we would chase and tire as a result. Incredibly effective performance from the Italians.

 

[3Sixty]

I can't figure out any decent bets on the Switzerland match, help me dear threesixty

pls i don't bet on football!

 

[GorillaJu]

Was only a dead leg, he should be fine.

Good to hear then. Hope England get out of their group - this year I find myself strangely in support of you guys. I wonder why? :lol

 

[WJD]

Yeah.

Also the more I think about last nights game the more I think Italy played a blinder in that second half in every way. This isn't a vintage Italian side in any respect, it's beatable and I think we should have beat it. But as soon as they went 2-1 up it was an almost perfect execution of neutralising a game of football. And in those conditions, they knew full well we would chase and tire as a result. Incredibly effective performance from the Italians.

While I agree in part I do think a team with more competent movement off the ball would have been able to break them down relatively easily.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

With Uruguay playing their second-choice RB, I'd consider putting Raheezus on the left. Still don't want Rooney in the team though, put Lallana behind the striker, or make it a midfield 3 and put Henderson at the tip.

 

[Shanks D Zoro]

Yeah.

Also the more I think about last nights game the more I think Italy played a blinder in that second half in every way. This isn't a vintage Italian side in any respect, it's beatable and I think we should have beat it. But as soon as they went 2-1 up it was an almost perfect execution of neutralising a game of football. And in those conditions, they knew full well we would chase and tire as a result. Incredibly effective performance from the Italians.

Yeah, I feel we had another couple goals in us, but it would have wrecked us for the next game. It was a performance that will give a lot of players confidence. There was talk before this tournament of this not being a vintage defence, but seeing as we held England to one goal despite changing our tactics a couple of days before the start and that England's pacey players were meant to be the type we could not handle, the team must feel pretty good about itself.

 

[Zabojnik]

Bosnia & Herzegovina

http://youtu.be/hy3lBnSQGrA?t=1m

Spoiler

And Costa Rica

I feel like this should be posted everytime an ex-Yu team is involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlSfMHWJpjc

So good.

 

[Freewheelin']

I want Ox to start a game in this tournament, he's quality.

Edit: feel free to quote my avatar :lol

 

[Broder Salsa]

pls i don't bet on football!

How am I going to watch this game without being invested in it one way or the other? Fuck it, I'm going to bet on Switzerland.

 

[Splatt]

I feel like this should be posted everytime an ex-Yu team is involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlSfMHWJpjc

So good.

"Popusi ga malo purgeru, dodji vamo purgeru"

I lose it every time :lol:

 

[Bumhead]

While I agree in part I do think a team with more competent movement off the ball would have been able to break them down relatively easily.

Of course.

A better team would have found a way and eroded them back down. I guess that's where the realisation comes in that as much I enjoyed the shape of our attack last night and thought it worked, and as much as I like Sturridge, Wellbeck and Sterling in those roles, we're just not quite good enough.

Italy did what they had to do and thought they could do to beat us and it worked perfectly for them. They'll do well against others too. Not unbeatable obviously, but they're a stronger and far more effective side than some might give them credit for when they say things like them not being a great Italian side.

 

[GorillaJu]

With Uruguay playing their second-choice RB, I'd consider putting Raheezus on the left. Still don't want Rooney in the team though, put Lallana behind the striker, or make it a midfield 3 and put Henderson at the tip.

Henderson shouldn't be in the creating position, IMO. It's often the case at international tournaments that technical skill trumps work rate and he's tidy but he doesn't have the trickery or the shooting ability you need for that position.

I'd rather just see Gerrard play deeper and allowed more space to pass and more creative responsibility. Play Henderson and Barkley or Wilshere ahead of him, let them harry and press the opposition midfield and give Gerrard the opportunity to play long passes out to the wings or into the box. Sterling and Lallana out wide would be perfect for this setup.

Obviously that puts Rooney on the bench, so I don't see it happening, but if Roy wants to exploit his players' abilities to the level their clubs do, that's the formation most natural and most effective for them, IMO.