He's ours!!!!! Wenger work your magic!!!
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Football Thread 2013/14 |OT4| Everybody Hates Wenger renewed for 17th season
- Thread starter Lambda Pie
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He's ours!!!!! Wenger work your magic!!!
I like you wilbs, you speak sense. Where as Yurt is letting the hate flow. It it clouding his judgement.
I don't disagree with that, and if he wins I'd have no complaints. But a lot of the reasons people don't think Messi should win are a) he's won it a million times, b) his team didnt win the treble, c) he plays in a shit league. There isn't really any cases where someone goes "well he definitely wasnt last year's best player". Because you can write it off as statistics or whatever, but in what was his weakest season for quite a while, he still scored 50/60 goals and was dragging Barcelona through games single handedly.
brokenbeans
Banned
I'm refusing to get excited about any transfer targets now I've had enough of the crap.
It's just a possibility. IF (big if) Mourinho wants rid, and is worried about the possibility that clubs might start throwing offers in on the last day of the window, it would help to be able to have some interest in the public space to hurry things along.
Is Bundesliga that much more competetive than La Liga?
That was the season Messi scored 92 goals right?
Moyes to bid £12.50 and a chorizo
Think it's a bit too soon to judge. Last year was an anomaly so far, you had something like 7 different winners in 8 years or whatever it was? Bundes fans can correct me if I'm wrong but Stuttgart and Wolfsburg or whoever have won the league quite recently, Dortmund came out of relative anonymity in the eyes of Europe and won. The last three years has indicated a little shift in the best sides but already Bayern aren't looking as untouchable as last year and Dortmund have to make a serious fist of the title while juggling Europe, something they couldn't do last year. Leverkusen look impressive this year as well.
And as good as Atletico look in La Liga, it's absolutely a foregone conclusion that the top two will be Barca and Madrid. It's just the way it goes.
I'd take that but only if he threw in 2 chorizo. Chorizo is delicious.
KidA Seven
Member
No way.
Willkiller
Banned
No
That was the season Messi scored 73 and broke Muller's record. He was top scorer for the CL and had the second most assists behind Ozil.
Yeah but for that season he scored 50 league goals and Ronaldo scored 46. But Madrid won the league and Ronaldo was the main reason for that.
He should have won that award.
KidA Seven
Member
That doesn't mean he was individually better. You can't just take away Messi's performances in the other competitions just because Barca didn't win them.
Won fuck all.
These awards can't just be held on individual performances imo. There needs to be some sort of achievement to back it up.
Messi was the reason barca were that far in any of the tournaments. That is a shit load of goals and assists.
KidA Seven
Member
Well what if some guy put up Messi type numbers, but was on Hull City? Would that be fair? Everyone would be in absolute agreement that he deserves the award, but they tell him "too bad, you won fuck all."
Not going to happen.
Trophies should count for something if the two players are really close to one another. It should serve as some tie breaker.
Messi was better that year, flat out.
Willkiller
Banned
Bollocks. He was the best player, the Ballon D'or is the award for the best player.
The award for playing as part of a team and doing well is winning trophys, Ronaldo and Madrid won more trophys that season because they were a better overall team. There's Ronaldo's award. If he was the best player, he would have won the Ballon D'or.
You are using Ronaldos liga goals but discounting Messi's other goals on top of that. He scored 92 goals that year and broke the scoring record. That counts for nothing?
Rodvik consistently makes me laugh. One of my fave posters in the thread.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I'll agree with Clegg. Both of them were amazing and by far the best footballers in the world in that season, but Ronaldo should have won it because he actually achieved a title for his club.
KidA Seven
Member
I think people just become biased towards Messi because he's currently hogging up the award.
If you want the Messi award, you're going to have to forcefully snatch it away from him.
If you want the Messi award, you're going to have to forcefully snatch it away from him.
But they are individual awards haha. It's like giving Avatar best picture just because it made the most money as opposed to being the best film or whatever.
Do you think Ribery should win it this year? Or van Persie over Messi because he played as big a part in his team winning?
Willkiller
Banned
The sentiment that the player's team has to win something for the player to deserve an individual award is utterly ridiculous imo.
GHG
Member
On the subject of the Ballon d'Or...
The Ballon d'Or should go to the best individual player taking into account the level of impact that they've had on their team. The moment you look at statistics the argument that Ribery or Robben should win falls flat on its face. Yes they were 2 key players in a fantastic season for Bayern but Bayern won everything because of the team overall being so strong (no obvious weaknesses) and the level of tactical discipline that was evident throughout the season. They were set up to play a certain way and executed it perfectly with efficiency almost every time they played. Bayern is a team built on a collective system that happens to include individuals with huge talent. There is nobody in that team however with Messi/Ronaldo levels of talent.
This is how much the players in question contributed overall to their teams last year including the % of the goals scored that they had a direct contribution to:
I didn't even do Robben because just glancing at his stats tells me there is no point. If you are to include the likes of Ribery and Robben in the players that should be seriously considered then the likes of Muller and Schweinsteiger need to also be included because of their huge contributions to Bayerns system overall as well.
The Ballon d'Or should go to the best individual player taking into account the level of impact that they've had on their team. The moment you look at statistics the argument that Ribery or Robben should win falls flat on its face. Yes they were 2 key players in a fantastic season for Bayern but Bayern won everything because of the team overall being so strong (no obvious weaknesses) and the level of tactical discipline that was evident throughout the season. They were set up to play a certain way and executed it perfectly with efficiency almost every time they played. Bayern is a team built on a collective system that happens to include individuals with huge talent. There is nobody in that team however with Messi/Ronaldo levels of talent.
This is how much the players in question contributed overall to their teams last year including the % of the goals scored that they had a direct contribution to:
I didn't even do Robben because just glancing at his stats tells me there is no point. If you are to include the likes of Ribery and Robben in the players that should be seriously considered then the likes of Muller and Schweinsteiger need to also be included because of their huge contributions to Bayerns system overall as well.
The Ballon d'Or has never been about the best player in the world. They call it that but there are years when there have been winners who clearly haven't been the best in the world but rather the best player in a team who won something.
Yeah this. Like you say if someone scored 60 goals for Hull but didnt win anything for it, people would want him to win over Ronaldo and Messi.
Messi is the best player in the world. And as amazing as some players have been over the last few years, they just haven't been individually better than Messi has. It's unfair that so many will go without a Ballon d'Or but if you're not giving it to the best player it becomes more of a farce than it already is.
brokenbeans
Banned
Ronaldo on FIFA > Messi on FIFA
CR7 best player ever confined.
CR7 best player ever confined.
Willkiller
Banned
But that's absolutely not true, if you disagree with some of the past winners that's fine. But that is what the award is.
KidA Seven
Member
On the subject of the Ballon d'Or...
The Ballon d'Or should go to the best individual player taking into account the level of impact that they've had on their team. The moment you look at statistics the argument that Ribery or Robben should win falls flat on its face. Yes they were 2 key players in a fantastic season for Bayern but Bayern won everything because of the team overall being so strong (no obvious weaknesses) and the level of tactical discipline that was evident throughout the season. They were set up to play a certain way and executed it perfectly with efficiency almost every time they played. Bayern is a team built on a collective system that happens to include individuals with huge talent. There is nobody in that team however with Messi/Ronaldo levels of talent.
This is how much the players in question contributed overall to their teams last year including the % of the goals scored that they had a direct contribution to:
I didn't even do Robben because just glancing at his stats tells me there is no point. If you are to include the likes of Ribery and Robben in the players that should be seriously considered then the likes of Muller and Schweinsteiger need to also be included because of their huge contributions to Bayerns system overall as well.
In this instance Ronaldo and Messi are very similar. Trophies could be a way to break the tie. Messi probably produced more in less games, but the totals are similar.
Also, you don't have to take statistics as the end all be all, but we're talking about Messi here. He's not some one dimensional player. The guy can do it all.
Realistically he probably is closer to 26 than 22.
Due to a bizarre 'sewage problem', I was away for the weekend and without Internet or TV. On a scale of 1 to Kolo, how well did Liverpool play in Saturday, and will they ever get a Márquez signing?
Whilst I was away, I played a cool game called 'Pokémon Yellow'. Check it out if you get the chance.
Whilst I was away, I played a cool game called 'Pokémon Yellow'. Check it out if you get the chance.
Lets take the last 5 or so winners before they merged in 2010 for each one:
2009 was Messi. No arguments there. 2008 was Ronaldo. No arguments there. 2007 was Kaka and I'd make no argument there. 2006 was Cannavaro and I would probably have gone for him or Henry that year. And 2005 was Ronaldinho.
Are you going to get an absolute concrete judgment by 100% of the people that the player they pick is the correct one? No. But even when fucking Michael Owen wins one, it's in a year when he contributed greatly to Liverpool winning a treble. They don't just hand them out willy nilly.
Vivalaraza
Member
Only thing ill say on Balon d'Or is that it should have remained as journalists voting only.
Captain and coaches votes are ridiculous.
Captain and coaches votes are ridiculous.
Is that for the Vita?
First half Liverpool - 7/8 out of Kolo
Second half Liverpool - 4/5 out of Kolo
Yeah agreed there. I didn't even look at the world player winners, just went for the Balon d'Or. When Messi's time is done we'll see more voting for friends and shit I'm sure.
GHG
Member
It can be argued that Robben, Ribery and Ronaldo all play similar positions for their teams. The only outlier is Messi as his starting position is more central these days. The stats only look at the core output metrics because of the fact that we are comparing similar players who are measured on such statistics. If we were talking about the likes of Pirlo and Xavi then there is a completely different set of stats that we'd need to look at.
Messi and Ronaldo have had their teams built around getting the best out of them. Robben and Ribery do as well to a certain extent (Bayerns system last year was reliant on good wing play) but they were not relieved of defensive duties in the same way that Messi and Ronaldo are. That is the only core difference at play here. But in terms of individual talent and overall team contribution Messi and Ronaldo are streets ahead of the rest.
Definitely not. Ronaldo wasn't scoring that many goals at United.
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