Support NeoGAF

[RickSanchez]

Even with all the recent "focus" on graphical fidelity, in my opinion, we have reached a plateau. Or atleast, we have reached the point of diminishing returns.

Compare the graphical jump from 2015 to 2020; then compare from 2020 to 2025. The latter is a far far smaller jump (if at all it is a jump). For most normies (and i count myself as a normie), graphics peaked with Uncharted 4 and Ghost of Tsushima on PS4. I know they've gotten incrementally better since then, but i cannot tell the difference when i'm immersed in the game.

BG3 is (again) a good example of this. It is a beautiful game. But its beauty comes from intricate, hand-crafted environments, not the number of polygons. The immersiveness comes from how engaging the world is to explore, not necessarily from how good it looks.

Compare this with your standard Ubisoft open world, which may be better looking, but utterly devoid of engaging content.

 

[Soodanim]

Sony and Yoshida have been saying it for years, but people are only now paying attention because it fits a certain narrative.

It's why, for years, they have been saying they need to make changes as AAA dev time and cost are rising.

Besides, people largely ignore this part of the article:
"Whether that's a focus on relatively smaller experiences like Astro Bot, or a complete pivot to lo-fi or stylized graphics, it's not suggested."

Anyway, this discussion is a dead horse.

What narrative? I don't follow this stuff closely.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

What narrative? I don't follow this stuff closely.

Imo there's this general narrative that is putting AA on a higher pedestal and downplaying AAA 'because reasons'.

It's not specifically related to Sony and Playstation.

 

[Soodanim]

Imo there's this general narrative that is putting AA on a higher pedestal and downplaying AAA 'because reasons'.

It's not specifically related to Sony and Playstation.

Ah, I see. Seems a bit misguided. There's plenty of room for both.

 

[Cyborg]

If PS5 becomes a Switch I will leave and Im here from 1994.

 

[Mattyp]

Imo there's this general narrative that is putting AA on a higher pedestal and downplaying AAA 'because reasons'.

It's not specifically related to Sony and Playstation.

Not a higher pedestal but they need a higher output, they've legit put out two PS5 games and we're over half way through the generation Astrobot and Spiderman.

They need a couple of A-AA games a year. I reckon we'll only see a single Naughty Dog game this generation in a span of 8 years it isn't good enough.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Not a higher pedestal but they need a higher output, they've legit put out two PS5 games and we're over half way through the generation Astrobot and Spiderman.

They need a couple of A-AA games a year. I reckon we'll only see a single Naughty Dog game this generation in a span of 8 years it isn't good enough.

Agreed.

But that's why it's weird to me that many people are so against Sony's gaas-strategy, as part of the reason for it is to be able to increase their overall games output.

All things affect eachother.

 

[Felessan]

Not a higher pedestal but they need a higher output, they've legit put out two PS5 games and we're over half way through the generation Astrobot and Spiderman.

Ragnarok, GT7, Returnal, Ratchet, yearly MLB are all lies, yeah

 

[Mattyp]

Ragnarok, GT7, Returnal, Ratchet, yearly MLB are all lies, yeah

Over half those games are PS4 titles. I did forget Rift Apart, I thought Returnal was PS4 the same as Ragnarok GT7 & MLB. Feels like the game released over a gen ago.

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

Ps6 should concentrate on 4k 240fps

 

[Jakk]

100% agree.

That stupid search for 'RayTracing' is costing Sony year after years of dev time. Not to mention most of the playstation users pick the performance mode than RT quality mode.

Bruh, this again. Makes zero sense, RT can actually make devs' work easier. It has almost nothing to do with the huge development times. Besides, there's like 2 games from Sony first party that use RT.

 

[Hudo]

He's right and it's not only Sony's problem. It's a problem for most of this fucking industry.

 

[GymWolf]

They did in a way, sony games this gen haven't been the pinnacle of graphic anymore, does he want even more cuts?

We already have nintendo for low budget AAA.

Dude is so chatty that he feels like we have a topic every day about him...

 

[Felessan]

Over half those games are PS4 titles. I did forget Rift Apart, I thought Returnal was PS4 the same as Ragnarok GT7 & MLB. Feels like the game released over a gen ago.

Those are cross-gen titles launched in the PS5 timeframe.

Crossgen is completely separate issue and proposal of upping production of lower budget titles will not affect it, those too will be for the most part crossgen.

And feels like over a gen ago - proposed A games will feel like 2 gen ago, low budget does have such effect as IQ drop dradtically

 

[Killjoy-NL]

They did in a way, sony games this gen haven't been the pinnacle of graphic anymore, does he want even more cuts?

We already have nintendo for low budget AAA.

Dude is so chatty that he feels like we have a topic every day about him...

Lol whut?

HFW Burning Shores shits on pretty much everything else this gen in graphics, apart from maybe Hellblade 2 and AC Shadows. Edit: and Cyberpunk.
Especially on Pro.

Same goes for Ratchet & Clank and GT7. And probably can throw in Demon's Souls Remake as well.

 

[GymWolf]

Lol whut?

HFW Burning Shores shits on pretty much everything else this gen in graphics, apart from maybe Hellblade 2 and AC Shadows.
Especially on Pro.

Same goes for Ratchet & Clank and GT7. And probably can throw in Demon's Souls Remake as well.

they still make great looking games but nah, they are not the unbeatable pinnacle they were in the past, you should visit the graphic fidelity topic and watch some pics of other games if you think horizon still smash everything, and i'm a huge fan of horizon graphic.

I haven't played gt7 but ratchet was wildly uneven, the robot bar cantina look straight up cg, some other locations looks super meh, sp2 was a huge letdown graphically, tsushi2 looks even worse than fucking shadows and interbaldactic wasn't the usual jaw on the floor like past ND reveal, people were talking more about the fugly protagonsit than the first in class graphic.

 

[justiceiro]

Ok, but will this be reflected on prices? Because if consoles keep getting more expensive while mantain the same graphical power, you making a fool out of your consumers.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

they still make great looking games but nah, they are not the unbeatable pinnacle they were in the past, you should visit the graphic fidelity topic and watch some pics of other games if you think horizon still smash everything, and i'm a huge fan of horizon graphic.

Given that Horizon is open-world, it most definitely is top-tier.

I never said unbeatable though. Nothing is. Unless we're talking production-value, then Sony comes pretty close.

I haven't played gt7 but ratchet was wildly uneven, the robot bar cantina look straight up cg, some other locations looks super meh, sp2 was a huge letdown graphically, tsushi2 looks even worse than fucking shadows and interbaldactic wasn't the usual jaw on the floor like past ND reveal, people were talking more about the fugly protagonsit than the first in class graphic.

All games have flaws. We can find them in any game.

But granted, we've come at a point where the vast majority of differences are negligible anyway, even consoles vs high-end PC.
So unless it's something like RTGI vs non-RTGI, it's mostly art direction that really makes a difference.

 

[manzo]

I wish game companies would start focusing and generating the gameplay core loop first and foremost, make it really fun and then build around it. Leave behind the interactive movie first and then whatever gameplay to keep people "watching the game" instead of dropping it off.

Mainly because the video game writing is as bad as your D-tier straight-to-Netflix trash, there is nothing worth watching a game for. I guess the reason for this is that the same writers that do this Netflix trash are the same people who work on video game scripts.

If you have a really tight and good gameplay core, a badly written game with shit graphics can be a blast and worth your time. A badly written game with good graphics but braindead gameplay is worth only playthrough watch on Youtube.

 

[L11ghtman]

Until there's some sort of true leap in photo realism, I'd much prefer graphics take a backseat to CPU-intensive processes like physics and world depth. Build cities that actually feel like cities before you give me any extra polygons. I'm good on polygons.

 

[jufonuk]

Again Sony copying Nintendo iwata realised this years ago

 

[Bernardougf]

I agree with him but not with sony specifically, this stupid RT pushing for better puddle reflexes is stupid all around.

But Sony at the moment dosent have a graphics whoring problem.. it has a gaas whoring problem and a DEI problem, this fucked up this gen, not graphics.

 

[GymWolf]

Given that Horizon is open-world, it most definitely is top-tier.

I never said unbeatable though. Nothing is. Unless we're talking production-value, then Sony comes pretty close.

All games have flaws. We can find them in any game.

But granted, we've come at a point where the vast majority of differences are negligible anyway, even consoles vs high-end PC.
So unless it's something like RTGI vs non-RTGI, it's mostly art direction that really makes a difference.

Well, in the graphic fidelity topic where all the graphic whores are reunited, the feeling that sony is not at the top anymore is extremely strong and shared by like 90% of the usual members, we had huge expactions for sony but they didn't fully delivered, take it as you want.

You can read posts from 2-3 years ago in the same topic when we were all expecting sony games to smash everything so it is hardly a topic full of xbox fanboys hating on sony, just people who like cutting edge graphic.

 

[L11ghtman]

I agree with him but not with sony specifically, this stupid RT pushing for better puddle reflexes is stupid all around.

But Sony at the moment dosent have a graphics whoring problem.. it has a gaas whoring problem and a DEI problem, this fucked up this gen, not graphics.

Is the DEI in the room with us right now

 

[Bernardougf]

Is the DEI in the room with us right now

2019 account with 100 posts... always nice to see our purple friends in here ready to defend the cause.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Well, in the graphic fidelity topic where all the graphic whores are reunited, the feeling that sony is not at the top anymore is extremely strong and shared by like 90% of the usual members, we had huge expactions for sony but they didn't fully delivered, take it as you want.

You can read posts from 2-3 years ago in the same topic when we were all expecting sony games to smash everything so it is hardly a topic full of xbox fanboys hating on sony, just people who like cutting edge graphic.

90% of usual Gaffers also expected Series X to wipe the floor with PS5 based on specs.

There's a high chance of cherry-picking from any side.

 

[GymWolf]

90% of usual Gaffers also expected Series X to wipe the floor with PS5 based on specs.

...ok?

Like i said, that topic is not a topic for xbox fanboys, most people in there were expecting sony to smash everyone a couple of years ago, nobody in there is happy that sony is underdelivering.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

...ok?

Like i said, that topic is not a topic for xbox fanboys, most people in there were expecting sony to smash everyone a couple of years ago, nobody in there is happy that sony is underdelivering.

Ok?

Pretty weird, as a game like SpiderMan 2 received a Technical Achievement Award at D.I.C.E. 2024 and had proven naysayers wrong when it gave us 60fps with RT.

Sometimes I wonder what the criteria are, because they always seem kinda wishy-washy.

 

[GymWolf]

Ok?

Pretty weird, as a game like SpiderMan 2 received a Technical Achievement Award at D.I.C.E. 2024 and had proven naysayers wrong when it gave us 60fps with RT.

Sometimes I wonder what the criteria are, because they always seem kinda wishy-washy.

Join the topic and ask yourself, you still have a couple of people who liked sp2 but admit that they could have done more.

 

[Shambalakan]

Somehow agree with him. I love most PlayStation first party games and also love amazing graphics, but prefer to play more games with good graphics, compared to fewer games with outstanding graphics (time of development and budget).
In my opinion, graphics of this gen (and even some games of last gen) are enough with good image quality and solid frame rate. It's good to see ultra details in games in an "ideal world", but not in our world with lots of problems in game developments.
But the biggest problem is this:

He's right but good luck. They've created a monster in their own userbase and their expectations.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Join the topic and ask yourself, you still have a couple of people who liked sp2 but admit that they could have done more.

"They could have done more" is a blanket statement that goes for any game. And a pointless one at that.

Edit:

It also ignores the fact that actual developers consider it worthy of the Technical Achievement Award at D.I.C.E.

 

[Famipan]

All it means is they need to focus on being able to deliver 4K 60fps and 120fps, since framerate is more important than graphical fidelity these days

 

[GymWolf]

"They could have done more" is a blanket statement that goes for any game. And a pointless one at that.

Edit:

It also ignores the fact that actual developers consider it worthy of the Technical Achievement Award at D.I.C.E.

I'm not gonna change your mind but many people in that topic think that graphic awards are kinda pointless when something like astrobot also received multiple graphical awards last year and something like sh2r wasn't even nominated.

Df said that indiana jones was the best graphic of 2024 and astrobot looked better than wukong, do you agree? Because i fucking don't, like not even remotely

So yeah, i clean my ass with videogame awards, both for graphic and game of the year.

 

[Felessan]

Sometimes I wonder what the criteria are, because they always seem kinda wishy-washy.

Some people always will find a things to complain no matter how green the grass is

Df said that indiana jones was the best graphic of 2024 and astrobot looked better than wukong, do you agree? Because i fucking don't, like not even remotely

You are mixing artistic and technical
Wukong might be artistically more appealing but Astrobot got it's technical prowess rewards.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I'm not gonna change your mind but many people in that topic think that graphic awards are kinda pointless when something like astrobot also received multiple graphical awards last year and something like sh2r wasn't even nominated.

AstroBot looks extremely clean though. Wanted to put it in there as well earlier.

SH2R looked rough overall.

Df said that indiana jones was the best graphic of 2024 and astrobot looked better than wukong, do you agree? Because i fucking don't, like not even remotely

So yeah, i clean my ass with videogame awards, both for graphic and game of the year.

Like I said, Astro Bot looks extremely clean, especially compared to a game like Wukong (which brings us to production value).

As for Indy, I took the effort to watch that video of DF where they gave it the Best Graphics award and it's basically them talking about framerate and RT for ~10min.

And if those are the criteria, I can see why they awarded Indy. I even commended Indy myself on the lighting, which is it's saving grace.
It's also the cherry-picking I was talking about.

 

[GymWolf]

AstroBot looks extremely clean though. Wanted to put it in there as well earlier.

SH2R looked rough overall.

Like I said, Astro Bot looks extremely clean, especially compared to a game like Wukong (which brings us to production value).

As for Indy, I took the effort to watch that video of DF where they gave it the Best Graphics award and it's basically them talking about framerate and RT for ~10min.

And if those are the criteria, I can see why they awarded Indy. I even commended Indy myself on the lighting, which is it's saving grace.
It's also the cherry-picking I was talking about.

Looking clean should not make you earn the 4th place in a graphic award list, sorry not sorry.
At best it suould have won an award for physics maybe, not raw graphic.

And i don't know how sh2r look on console but on pc it was without a doubt one of the best graphic of the year and no graphic award from a serious place should knock down a game just because the console version look bad, millions of players play on pc aswell so that is bullshit of the highest order.

 

[GymWolf]

Edit: meh, not worthy.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Looking clean should not make you earn the 4th place in a graphic award list, sorry not sorry.
At best it suould have won an award for physics maybe, not raw graphic.

Depends on the criteria. That's why I asked what the criteria are.

And i don't know how sh2r look on console but on pc it was without a doubt one of the best graphic of the year and no graphic award from a serious place should knock down a game just because the console version look bad, millions of players play on pc aswell so that is bullshit of the highest order.

"But on PC"

The gap nowadays is negligible.

 

[GymWolf]

Depends on the criteria. That's why I asked what the criteria are.

"But on PC"

The gap nowadays is negligible.

If you think sh2r looked rough i would say it's far bigger than negligible because on pc it looks absolutely splendind and it was made by a shitty AA developer.

Let's just cut here, because if you think astrobot deserve a 4th place in 2024, we really have completely different opinion of what make good graphic and we are never gonna agree on nothing.

 

[PlayStaytion]

Yeah, taking PC seriously, that's what I said the other day.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

If you think sh2r looked rough i would say it's far bigger than negligible because on pc it looks absolutely splendind and it was made by a shitty AA developer.

If you're talking about this:


Then I stand by what I said.

Let's just cut here, because if you think astrobot deserve a 4th place in 2024, we really have completely different opinion of what make good graphic and we are never gonna agree on nothing.

I said absolutely nothing about what Astro Bot deserves or what not.

You're the one arguing against whatever placement it has gotten. I don't even know which outlet you're talking about that put it in 4th place?

 

[GymWolf]

If you're talking about this:


Then I stand by what I said.

I said absolutely nothing about what Astro Bot deserves.

You said that it looks clean, like looking clean is even an important parameter...every ps4 simple looking game in 4k is gonna look super clean.


All the games that don't look clean on console look splendid on pc and like i said, excluding pc from a graphic award is absolute retardation, next what? We judge mutiplatform games based on how they are gonna run on switch 2? Come the fuck on.

You always judge the best version of a game in a graphic award list.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

You said that it looks clean, like looking clean is even an important parameter...every ps4 simple looking game in 4k is gonna look super clean.

But Indy deserves Best Graphics because DF liked it's framerate?

All the games that don't look clean on console look splendid on pc and like i said, excluding pc from a graphic award is absolute retardation, next what? We judge mutiplatform games based on how they are gonna run on switch 2? Come the fuck on.

Where did I said PC should be excluded? I was including PC.

You always judge the best version of a game in a graphic award list.

Yes, I never said otherwise.

 

[GymWolf]

But Indy deserves Best Graphics because DF liked it's framerate?

Where did I said PC should be excluded? I was including PC.

Yes, I never said otherwise.

No it doesn't, how do i have to spell the fact that i consider modern graphic awards a farce?

I think df list is dogshit.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

No it doesn't, how do i have to spell the fact that i consider graphic awards a farce?

I think df list is dogshit.

Ok?

 

[PlayStaytion]

The tricky part is that is what the majority of their studios excel at along with taking well worn design philosophies/gaming mechanics and polishing them to a shine, but most of their games are propped up with their best-in-class presentation.

There's a gray area where the differences between iconic titles graphics and best looking games are neglectable, people could tell they like games for the way they are and that's irreplaceable.

 

[GigaBowser]

yoshida ahah

 

[NahaNago]

I think cutting edge graphics is fine for some of the games. The problem that I have been saying is that they need more studios for a well rounded catalogue of games from near indie to AAAA games. I also don't understand why they would allow their studios to balloon their budgets so high when they were originally creating smaller near level AAA games for one platform.

I do agree that they should probably move beyond just the focus of cutting edge graphics. Maybe incredible a.i. enemies, or better physics in games, interesting randomized storyline development from gameplay choices.

 

[PatientGamer]

I think Sony just needs variety and they need to drop the forced DEI in their first-party titles (e.g. Spiderman 2 ). Astrobot proved this can be done; it didn't cost $300 million dollars and will likely continue to sell for years. I think people don't mind waiting 4+ years for AAA titles, if you can spread a good 4-5 AA games per year too.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I think people don't mind waiting 4+ years for AAA titles, if you can spread a good 4-5 AA games per year too.

Tbf this has pretty much always been the case for Sony, it's just that the gaps are filled by 3rd party since forever.

The only change is people suddenly started demanding Sony filling the gaps themselves, as if 3rd party don't exist.

Then again, since MS started buying big publishers, Sony started talking about want to rely less on 3rd party.