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[thuway]

Is it so hard to understand that KZ2 was supposed to be a system seller ? It was supposed to sell as much as Halo... so yeah it was a commercial failure. Forza 3 never had this ambition, it's a sim racer... so yeah it'll do better eventually because FM2 did. I don't see Forza 3 doing less than Forza 2.

And I don't think that you have anything to teach me about "biased" commentaries :lol

:lol I remember when you got your tag too. You should just end the misery and buy yourself a PS3.

 

[Keikoku]

:lol I remember when you got your tag too. You should just end the misery and buy yourself a PS3.

I own a PS3 since January but nevermind. Anyway it's funny that SDF is laughing to chubigans retarded post. Don't see how it makes my point less valid but whatever... I guess that nobody was expected KZ2 to be a system seller, and that FM3 was supposed to be one.

 

[mentalfloss]

If I were PD/Sony right now, I would surprise drop GT5 before the holidays. They really don't need the extra polish or cars at this point to guarantee a hit on their hands and a chance to rub in their success after the low Forza sales.

For the record, I actually prefer Forza, but if we're talking monies and mindshare here, there is a big opportunity to be had.

 

[Keikoku]

If I were PD/Sony right now, I would surprise drop GT5 before the holidays. They really don't need the extra polish or cars at this point to guarantee a hit on their hands and a chance to rub in their success after the low Forza sales.

For the record, I actually prefer Forza, but if we're talking monies and mindshare here, there is a big opportunity to be had.

I don't think that it's all about polish. The game is just not finished.

 

[Shurs]

If I were PD/Sony right now, I would surprise drop GT5 before the holidays. They really don't need the extra polish or cars at this point to guarantee a hit on their hands and a chance to rub in their success after the low Forza sales.

For the record, I actually prefer Forza, but if we're talking monies and mindshare here, there is a big opportunity to be had.

The Gran Turismo franchise already has both, no matter what proclamations people at Turn 10 want to make about their game.

 

[Yoboman]

If I were PD/Sony right now, I would surprise drop GT5 before the holidays. They really don't need the extra polish or cars at this point to guarantee a hit on their hands and a chance to rub in their success after the low Forza sales.

For the record, I actually prefer Forza, but if we're talking monies and mindshare here, there is a big opportunity to be had.

They're not polishing the cars that is what's feature complete. They're polishing the damage, the tracks, the features, probably the online.

They need to release the package when it's done and dusted, no surprise launch please.

 

[thuway]

I own a PS3 since January but nevermind. Anyway it's funny that SDF is laughing to chubigans retarded post. Don't see how it makes my point less valid but whatever... I guess that nobody was expected KZ2 to be a system seller, and that FM3 was supposed to be one.

REALLY? Do you want people to scavenge through your post history and find some 'retarded' posts?

 

[fortified_concept]

REALLY? Do you want people to scavenge through your post history and find some 'retarded' posts?

It's won't be that difficult. Half of them are fanboy rants.

 

[DeadGzuz]

I wouldn't classify any game that makes the top 10 in sales as a bomb. A disappointment? Certainly. A bomb? No.

You did make a very good point about user bases, though.

I said it was relative. If garbage like Prototype can sell 400k, what should a crown jewel like FM3 sell after all the hype? I would think 1m in a month, but it is just a sim. Driving in circles does not appeal to much of the shooter crowd that makes up NA 360 owners.

 

[MrPliskin]

It'll be interesting to see how Forza 3 sales stack up to GT5 sales in 2010. Seeing such low numbers for Forza 3 kind of worries me for GT5, but I think GT5 may be more successful because of it's legacy and the recently aquired motorsports licenses.

Is it so hard to understand that KZ2 was supposed to be a system seller ? It was supposed to sell as much as Halo... so yeah it was a commercial failure. Forza 3 never had this ambition, it's a sim racer... so yeah it'll do better eventually because FM2 did. I don't see Forza 3 doing less than Forza 2.

And I don't think that you have anything to teach me about "biased" commentaries :lol

Sony really hasn't posititioned any of it's software to be System Sellers the way that Nintendo or Microsoft has. The majority of their conferences always revolve around multiple games getting the same amount of attention, and advertisements being montage's of multiple games.

It wasn't like they went on a multi-million dollar advertising campaign ala Halo 3 to put ad's on the History Channel.

It was supposed to be a big title, sure, and I'm certain it sold well under their expectations, but the validity of Chubigans comments still stands. You declared Killzone 2 a failure very quickly, and gave Forza 3 the free pass.

Besides, we're talking software sales. High software sales =/= system seller unless that corresponds to hardware sales during the front loaded month. KZ2 will probably go on to sell over a million copies or more world wide, and will have proven it's value to Sony overall through software research and development for PS3.

 

[GSG Flash]

Is it so hard to understand that KZ2 was supposed to be a system seller ? It was supposed to sell as much as Halo... so yeah it was a commercial failure. Forza 3 never had this ambition, it's a sim racer... so yeah it'll do better eventually because FM2 did. I don't see Forza 3 doing less than Forza 2.

And I don't think that you have anything to teach me about "biased" commentaries :lol

Forza 3 was supposed to sell as much as GT, was it not? Considering it was MS's response to GT and all. So, by your own logic, I'm sure you will agree that Forza 3 is a commercial failure as well, am I correct?

 

[Stop It]

If I were PD/Sony right now, I would surprise drop GT5 before the holidays. They really don't need the extra polish or cars at this point to guarantee a hit on their hands and a chance to rub in their success after the low Forza sales.

For the record, I actually prefer Forza, but if we're talking monies and mindshare here, there is a big opportunity to be had.

Simple answer: They don't need to.

GT5 will sell a shedload whenever it released, and as it is set for an early Summer (June/July, going by the time delay from GT4 JP to NA/EU), it will avoid the MW2 fest currently going on and the early 2010 binge after that.

I must say that I am disappointed by the US sales of Forza 3 so far. Of course it still may improve but as long as this sends a message to MGS and Turn10 that trying to aim a Sim series racer at "casuals" will not work and to focus their efforts into the core audience properly, rather than trying to be all things to all people.

 

[Goldrusher]

nvm, wrong thread

 

[isamu]

Guys. I know that there's been a lot of subtle trolling(And blatant) in this thread. But this isn't really necessary or in "good taste". Sure I personally think T10 deserves it for all their smack talk and shouting, but it's not a good thing for F3 to perform so low. Sure Iknos is a unbiased and saintly hero, worthy of our "choir singing" but he was right however little that Forza as a series has pushed Gran Turismo harder.

You can rip into either game all you want, but cheering at low sales isn't cool. And yes I know that sounds extremely corny and lolz GT will sell 50 bajillion copies anyway. BUT competition is a good thing as evidenced by this generation and the battle between the 360/PS3.

Good post CD I agree 100%. *BUT*, that being said, I think T10 sorta deserves it for going out of their way to gimp the online multiplayer. Races being restricted to A Class and higher is downright criminal.

 

[methos75]

I don't see why everyone is laughing at Forza 3's sells numbers when GT5 isn't even out and we have no idea if it will do well, the past is not a very good indicator at all in this industry and this could be a sign of an market shift and lack of interest in Sim racers as much as anything. Genre's and series do and have lost market shares and fanbases before, this could be that occurring as much as anything else.

 

[Unknown One]

I don't know about that nobody does. The fanbase is still there I think since prologue sold over 3 million and tons of people knew it was a demo of what's to come.

 

[methos75]

I don't know about that nobody does. The fanbase is still there I think since prologue sold over 3 million and tons of people knew it was a demo of what's to come.

That is true that GTP did well, but GT on the PSP has been a failure as well, its hard to gauge the market. Also since GTP''s release the PS3 as well as the XB360 has been flooded with racers, some may just be brunt out. The fact that dirt 2 and Shift released right before Forza 3, and that both are gold, really didn't help Forza either.

 

[jiggle]

I don't know about that nobody does. The fanbase is still there I think since prologue sold over 3 million and tons of people knew it was a demo of what's to come.

4mil now
but the market shifted just after it hit that number though

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I like me some GT but I wouldn't get GT PSP. You can't use a wheel, it's not like the normal GT games, and it's on a handheld. I wouldn't put GT PSP as a indicator of the market for sims. PSP is a victim of easy hacking as well.

 

[Truespeed]

I don't see why everyone is laughing at Forza 3's sells numbers when GT5 isn't even out and we have no idea if it will do well, the past is not a very good indicator at all in this industry and this could be a sign of an market shift and lack of interest in Sim racers as much as anything. Genre's and series do and have lost market shares and fanbases before, this could be that occurring as much as anything else.

Patterns have a way of repeating themselves. When you factor in the racing modes, the blown out online capabilities, GT5 will easily go platinum on the EU/NA release date. It is still the most anticipated racing simulator in the world. To even speculate that the genre has died down and lost market share is just ludicrous. The GT fan base hasn't gone anywhere and they haven't moved on. They're just lying in wait for the definitive simulator to drop.

Worldwide Sales of Gran Turismo

Title / Units
Gran Turismo / 10,850,000
Gran Turismo 2 / 9,370,000
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec / 14,890,000
Gran Turismo Concept Series / 1,560,000
Gran Turismo 4 “Prologue” / 1,350,000
Gran Turismo 4 / 10,830,000
Gran Turismo 5 “Prologue” / 4,170,000
Total: 53,020,000

 

[Death Dealer]

KZ2 will probably go on to sell over a million copies or more world wide, and will have proven it's value to Sony overall through software research and development for PS3.

KZ2 sold over a million world wide a while ago.

I don't think F3 sales are indicative of GT5's potential. Based on Prologue, I think GT5 is going to sell like crazy.

 

[Melfice7]

but GT on the PSP has been a failure as well

I love GT and i dont give a crap about the PSP, im sure theres plenty like me

 

[user friendly]

1.7 million people playing KZ2 multiplayer by the by.

 

[Diablohead]

I like me some GT but I wouldn't get GT PSP. You can't use a wheel, it's not like the normal GT games, and it's on a handheld. I wouldn't put GT PSP as a indicator of the market for sims. PSP is a victim of easy hacking as well.

You can actually, but I can't find the youtube video right now.

GT5 will sell extremely well but a good portion of the sales will just be by the name alone, everyone knows the gran turismo title and the game looks very pretty, it's going to sell.

 

[Shaneus]

Good post CD I agree 100%. *BUT*, that being said, I think T10 sorta deserves it for going out of their way to gimp the online multiplayer. Races being restricted to A Class and higher is downright criminal.

They mentioned that they did that to get a scope of what the community wanted, and have been constantly updating the hoppers ever since (currently at C class and also one specifically for RWD drifting). I'd wager that Polyphony try and nail the MP first go, and if there's something they overlook they DON'T patch it like Turn 10 have done.

If there's credit due somewhere, it's to go to Turn 10 who have shown that with this release, they listen to their community.

 

[Saiyar]

They mentioned that they did that to get a scope of what the community wanted, and have been constantly updating the hoppers ever since (currently at C class and also one specifically for RWD drifting). I'd wager that Polyphony try and nail the MP first go, and if there's something they overlook they DON'T patch it like Turn 10 have done.

If there's credit due somewhere, it's to go to Turn 10 who have shown that with this release, they listen to their community.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/1/3209701/ShowThread.aspx
It is a long read but it shows that Turn 10 are not listening to what the community wants.

 

[H_Prestige]

You can actually, but I can't find the youtube video right now.

GT5 will sell extremely well but a good portion of the sales will just be by the name alone, everyone knows the gran turismo title and the game looks very pretty, it's going to sell.

I never understood this. People say this about games like Halo, Call of Duty, and Mario games as well. Do you think people are buying these games despite hating them?

 

[torontoml]

I never understood this. People say this about games like Halo, Call of Duty, and Mario games as well. Do you think people are buying these games despite hating them?

I think its more that since the first few iterations of these games gained a large following, it doesn't matter if the game is good or not people will buy it based on their enjoyment of the previous games. So in other words they buy the game because the name is the same and it has been good before.

 

[Iknos]

I would expect that isn't the case. No developer in their right mind would willingly choose to do that sort of feature creeping / risky rewrites so late in a project. With a project the size of GT5 they must have been feature locked months ago.

It seems from previous GT releases that the features aren't completely locked until the very last minute. Online play in GT4 for example.

My thinking was that they have a large list of features they'd like and work it down in terms of importance. Over the years it looks like damage has gone up in importance.

It used to be "damage in particular cars" and now it looks more like "damage in all cars". Even in recent interviews it's "how much damage do we want in there?".

So I disagree about it being locked to a particular set of features.

The world don't turn around Forza all that features are already announced or present in a lot of games before

Which is why I said "largely in thanks to Forza".

FM3 is a game that has combined all of these great features into one package. Other racing games have cockpit view but not that many cars. Others have tons of cars but no damage. Some racers have lots of real world tracks and cars but a limited upgrades and tuning system.

Some of those comparisons you made are pretty ridiculous. Can't compare that "My 'Lil Telemetry" to what Forza has. Same with the real time tuning...not even on the same level.

Swapping memory cards is nothing like the Auction House or Storefronts either. You're reaching here...it's almost like saying that Halo 3 has a level editor comparable to Unreal Tournament's.

What I'm saying is that we're going to see things far more comparable to Forza in GT5. I expect a full telemetry this time and opportunities to sell cars and setups for in-game credits.

I expect real manufacturer parts just like we see in Forza.

The point is that by combining all of these great elements into one game T10 raised the bar for racing games and I think PD is up for it.

I think PD had their own focus for a great racer where they would have things like weather and a full fledged online mode and could have released something like that. But from what they've seen from Forza they probably decided "hey we can do that too" and decided it was worth delaying the release of the game to include more features.

I don't think I'm alone when I think PD is a competitive development team. They strive and are successful on having some of the best looking games even when they are on an inferior platform. GT4 still looked better than PC or Xbox games for example.

and you can't expect a 5 years of work being showcased in a very limited demo, and now all the big features being worked in a 6 months basis, that's ridiculous. PD are famous for not showing the goods until the last hour.

We have already seen 2 months of work on damage in a demo. It may seem ridiculous but it does seem that PD has started working on it somewhat recently.

That's quite the fantasy. First of all, GT5 was never delayed because there was never a firm release data given by PD until Kaz announced the March 2010 date. So as far as I'm concerned it was always on track.

There was so much evidence going both ways. In my eyes it was 50/50 and others here have disagreed and said the evidence favored a 2009 release.

My favorite of his was a few months back where he said he didnt follow racing games and he just took a bunch of stuff at face value that he read on forums when he was stirring up crap/trolling GT here. I was real close to adding him to the ignore list then. But now, he is definitely on there.

You are pulling a Scottlarock here. I guess when you have little to say you just fabricate stuff and hope it sticks.

I came back into this thread with some more supporting evidence to my theory though.

OPM UK was able to try out the latest build of GT5 and reported "a brand new sense of feeling between the car and the tarmac" and that one can "feel exactly when the car's about to lose control"...as shared by an OPM UK reader.

I'm sure that when PD played FM3 at E3 they felt the same way about Forza 3. We know PD always tinkers with the physics even after a game is released but this was one very noticeable difference you can feel in FM3 over the likes of Prologue. I'm sure when they played FM3 PD realized that GT5 had to be at least as good as FM3 in the physics department.

 

[CrushDance]

I came back into this thread with some more supporting evidence to my theory though.

OPM UK was able to try out the latest build of GT5 and reported "a brand new sense of feeling between the car and the tarmac" and that one can "feel exactly when the car's about to lose control"...as shared by an OPM UK reader.

I'm sure that when PD played FM3 at E3 they felt the same way about Forza 3. We know PD always tinkers with the physics even after a game is released but this was one very noticeable difference you can feel in FM3 over the likes of Prologue. I'm sure when they played FM3 PD realized that GT5 had to be at least as good as FM3 in the physics department.

WHAT

Can't compare that "My 'Lil Telemetry" to what Forza has. Same with the real time tuning...not even on the same level.

"My lil telemetry" omg:lol :lol Did you really just pull a "My lil Pony" joke?

You are pulling a Scottlarock here. I guess when you have little to say you just fabricate stuff and hope it sticks.

It's like every time GT is mentioned you're off to the races.

 

[RiotPelaaja]

Hey all,

a bit off topic, but I put up a video of Kazunori playing Nürburgring in Gran Turismo 5 at Polyphony here.

 

[antiquegamer]

4mil now
but the market shifted just after it hit that number though

And you have to keep in mind when GT5P was released, there weren't exactly a lot of racer on the PS3. Forza 3 came out at a time where the racer already not selling well and then have to compete with the like of MW2.

GT Portable did really poor and that have GT name attach to it ... I don't know any of the friends that have PS3 that look forward to get GT5.

 

[antiquegamer]

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/1/3209701/ShowThread.aspx
It is a long read but it shows that Turn 10 are not listening to what the community wants.

People on that forum bitch about everything. I like Forza 3 on-line, I play a lot more than Forza 2 and definitely a lot more than Prologue. There's some draw back to the hopper,but at least I don't have to worry about the host make some stupid random rules or kick me from the room for no reason.

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

this thread is a clusterfuck :lol

we should do more of these.

btw, chinner got it right, if we're able to gather nintendo fanboys in this thread with mario kart it will be one of the best threads in gaf history.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Iknos is going delusional oO

 

[AndyD]

Iknos is going delusional oO

Yep. He is starting to slip faster and faster off the deep end.

And Tommy, that thread may come when the Modnations beta comes out.

 

[blaccat]

And you have to keep in mind when GT5P was released, there weren't exactly a lot of racer on the PS3. Forza 3 came out at a time where the racer already not selling well and then have to compete with the like of MW2.

GT Portable did really poor and that have GT name attach to it ... I don't know any of the friends that have PS3 that look forward to get GT5.

There weren't a lot of PS3 consoles either, right?

 

[antiquegamer]

There weren't a lot of PS3 consoles either, right?

No, but then all the people I knew that have PS3 all bought GT5P because it was the race car game to get then, Grid didn't sell well on either system and DirT2 also pretty much bomb on both system this year. Ferrari Challenge and the sequel Super Car challenge also pretty much bomba.

Actually I can't really think of any recent racer that sell well on either console. May be GT will be the only racer that sell, like Final Fantasy, the only RPG that will do big number.

But whatever, Forza 3 is an awesome sim console racer and if some of you want to miss out on good fun because of a silly blind dedication to just one brand. All I know is I am playing Forza 3 now and it's fun and next year I will be playing GT5 and I am sure it will be just as awesome for someone like me who like cars games.

Heck in between class, I even play Grid on the Dsi or GT Portable on PSP.

 

[Gek54]

Which is worse?

Gran Turismo 5's Permanent ABS driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr2us7TpKqI

or

Forza 3's Permanent Active Steering driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY


One actively takes away ultimate car control, the other gives you too much car control. Both are insulting to the senses and yet both would seem like they would be easy to fix. Personally I find having my steering ratio mucked with much more offensive than having excessive turning ability when my front tires are locked, ear-bleeding tire screeching aside.

 

[AndyD]

Which is worse?

Gran Turismo 5's Permanent ABS driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY

or

Forza 3's Permanent Active Steering driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr2us7TpKqI


One actively takes away ultimate car control, the other gives you too much car control. Both are insulting to the senses and yet both would seem like they would be easy to fix. Personally I find having my steering ratio mucked with much more offensive than having excessive turning ability when my front tires are locked, ear-bleeding tire screeching aside.

I believe that's GT5.

 

[op_ivy]

Hey all,

a bit off topic, but I put up a video of Kazunori playing Nürburgring in Gran Turismo 5 at Polyphony here.

f3 >>> gt5 graphics in game confirmed.

 

[Everdred]

Hey all,

a bit off topic, but I put up a video of Kazunori playing Nürburgring in Gran Turismo 5 at Polyphony here.

TRANSLATOR GUY!

 

[user_nat]

f3 >>> gt5 graphics in game confirmed.

That video does actually look alot like Forza 3's Nurburgring.

Can't really see much detail though, it is a youtube and offscreen.

 

[op_ivy]

That video does actually look alot like Forza 3's Nurburgring.

Can't really see much detail though, it is a youtube and offscreen.

it does, minus the real time shadows on the car and in the cockpit.

 

[MGR]

Which is worse?

They both suck, but Forza's active steering is worse.

The fact you can't 'properly' disable the ABS is annoying but most modern cars do have ABS standard anyway.

Forza's active steering is just alien.

 

[op_ivy]

Which is worse?

Gran Turismo 5's Permanent ABS driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY

or

Forza 3's Permanent Active Steering driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr2us7TpKqI


One actively takes away ultimate car control, the other gives you too much car control. Both are insulting to the senses and yet both would seem like they would be easy to fix. Personally I find having my steering ratio mucked with much more offensive than having excessive turning ability when my front tires are locked, ear-bleeding tire screeching aside.

got them linked backwards FYI.

being able to steer under fully ocked brakes is retarded though.

 

[Iknos]

WHAT

Have you played Forza?

"My lil telemetry" omg:lol :lol Did you really just pull a "My lil Pony" joke?

I don't know what you are getting at here. The point was that you can't make a comparison between the two. The one he posted was extremely basic and it's like comparing the "level tweaker" in Halo to Unreal's full blown level editor.

It's like every time GT is mentioned you're off to the races.

Now you're not making sense at all here.

Yep. He is starting to slip faster and faster off the deep end.

And Tommy, that thread may come when the Modnations beta comes out.

I absolutely love how you fanboys don't want to face reality.

I'd like for you to point out what you disagree with and then counter it with some facts.

I suppose the baseless ad hominem attacks work better for you?

How many hours have you and metalmurphy put into Forza 3? Just wondering...because if you disagree your position must be based on something right?

You realize that it's your sort that has turned this thread into a joke? Playing both games may be a good first step when you want to start posting in a comparison thread.

Which is worse?

Gran Turismo 5's Permanent ABS driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr2us7TpKqI

or

Forza 3's Permanent Active Steering driving aid? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY


One actively takes away ultimate car control, the other gives you too much car control. Both are insulting to the senses and yet both would seem like they would be easy to fix. Personally I find having my steering ratio mucked with much more offensive than having excessive turning ability when my front tires are locked, ear-bleeding tire screeching aside.

IMO they are both heartbreaking but the one in GT5 can be gamebreaking when abused especially online. If someone ahead of you brakes early for a turn you can slam your brakes late and steer around him.

OTOH I don't expect GT5 to have such flaws...as I pointed out I think they are going to make the physics much more comparable to PC sims and Forza 3 in terms of tire physics. Whereas I don't think T10 will patch their game to give users with 900 degree wheels full control.

 

[skyfinch]

What happened?

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Was wondering if this thread would get a second wind.

 

[Metalmurphy]

What happened?

Not that you'd care considering your past history on this very thread, and the near lack of one on the actual GT5 thread, but what happened was the lack of bullshots. Nothing new.