Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

The whole reason this thread exists is because of that F3 E3 presentation. If that dude didn't claim the game was the definitive racing experience of this gen there would be no fire towards F3. Just like Sony with their arrogance. People was happy to watch them squirm, and they deserved it. From "We already won (ps2 era)" to "They will get a second job."

That guy tried to put GT and PD down, but it seem he was made to say those lines. Yamauchi seems like the kind of guy that wouldn't mind someone coming out of nowhere with a amazing racing game that's rich in history and stuff that he likes. I bet he'd find it fascinating, he may need to pass the baton soon anyway. It gave F3 a lot of publicity, and it helped. All of this is the cost.
 
Slackbladder said:
And GT5 Prologue. Also Forza 1 was out in May 2005 in NA and GT4 was out Feb 2005. Pretty damn close release dates. So let's say 2 Forza games since GT4/Forza 1.
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GT4 shipped in Japan in 2004. Turn10 shipped all three Forza since between numbered console iterations of GT.

GT5P, that is a good point, I think it's pretty crap personally. But, you're right, a crap PS3 game, and a crap PSP game in the time Turn10 made three pretty good console games.

I'm not saying Turn10 are better, or that they could have made a game as pretty and richly featured as GT5 with the same time and budget, I'm just saying they have been working under very different constraints, so it's hardly something that is directly comparable.

Personally I just prefer the GT driving model I think. It feels better to me. But that's a very personal, subjective thing. I don't think any of the Forza's are even as good as GT4. But we really don't know what Turn10 could do with the GT5 budget and development cycle.
 
Shaneus said:
We're still yet to see whether Turn 10 can do lighting and shadowing that's comparable to Polyphony. Then, we need to see if the 360 can handle doing that on multiple cars. TBH I think it's about 70/30 with more weight being put on the devs than the hardware itself.

But maybe they'll invent a way to Crossfire/SLI two 360s. In which case, fucking awesome!
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Anybody can do lighting and shadowing like Polyphony. They just need to license the same third party lighting engine.
 
The gestation period has been so long for GT5. We are getting about 2-3x the content. I said it in either this thread or the GT5 thread. While the wait has been long and there have been several Forza installments, GT has met the features and totally blown the doors off with it's own. The argument of time needs to be absolutely looked at this way. PD has been spending years on this without releasing several versions. Think about it. If Sony wanted more GT's then they would've probably squeezed one out of PD about 2-3 years into the life cycle. We got a glorified demo in Prologue. And all the features and enhancements to the physics, sound, presentation, and overall polish demonstrate what exactly PD has done with this game.

If some of you aren't aware of exactly how staggering the GT5 experience will be, step into the thread and follow the news or re-read it. It's the real deal, more than any other racer before it by leaps and bounds.
 
LiquidMetal14 said:
The gestation period has been so long for GT5. We are getting about 2-3x the content. I said it in either this thread or the GT5 thread. While the wait has been long and there have been several Forza installments, GT has met the features and totally blown the doors off with it's own. The argument of time needs to be absolutely looked at this way. PD has been spending years on this without releasing several versions. Think about it. If Sony wanted more GT's then they would've probably squeezed one out of PD about 2-3 years into the life cycle. We got a glorified demo in Prologue. And all the features and enhancements to the physics, sound, presentation, and overall polish demonstrate what exactly PD has done with this game.

If some of you aren't aware of exactly how staggering the GT5 experience will be, step into the thread and follow the news or re-read it. It's the real deal, more than any other racer before it by leaps and bounds.
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if all the cars were premium it would almost be perfect
 
LiquidMetal14 said:
The gestation period has been so long for GT5. We are getting about 2-3x the content. I said it in either this thread or the GT5 thread. While the wait has been long and there have been several Forza installments, GT has met the features and totally blown the doors off with it's own. The argument of time needs to be absolutely looked at this way. PD has been spending years on this without releasing several versions. Think about it. If Sony wanted more GT's then they would've probably squeezed one out of PD about 2-3 years into the life cycle. We got a glorified demo in Prologue. And all the features and enhancements to the physics, sound, presentation, and overall polish demonstrate what exactly PD has done with this game.

If some of you aren't aware of exactly how staggering the GT5 experience will be, step into the thread and follow the news or re-read it. It's the real deal, more than any other racer before it by leaps and bounds.
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This is no doubt true, GT5 is going to blow away FZ3. I didn't mean to imply it wouldn't. I just think Turn10 get a little bit too much shit because they are not working within the same constraints. If I have five cards, and you have two, I'm probably going to have the better pokerhand, I don't think me beating you proves I'm the better poker player. I might well be of course, but that game doesn't prove that.
 
bloodforge said:
Anybody can do lighting and shadowing like Polyphony. They just need to license the same third party lighting engine.
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What engine is that? It's so damn good no other developer seeming not to use it is just silly, Turn 10 would most definitely benefit from using that lighting engine.

Edit - What's with the :lol is he talking shit? Could have sworn that quite some time ago there was discussion about the lighting engine being 3rd party. :?
 
Well in all fairness... Forza & Turn10 aren't perfectionists... and have no concept of the idea. They've released 3 titles that have just degraded over time, with 8 cars.

It doesn't take much to animate a spoiler for vehicle accuracy. GT5 will trump Forza 4 & 5 as well. They've just become DLC cash out fests with the same features as the second title and compressed captures/darkened cockpits/damage swapping. And Turn10 can't even churn out the DLC they promised.

Sure, they have cockpits for all the cars.. rendered in low resolution with broken tachometers' wrong side drive, wrong interior... just hacking a .3ds file from a manufacturer and calling it done. One of GT's premium models is probably 10x that of the forza counterpart down to the stitching shader. its not debatable imo.
 
StuBurns said:
This is no doubt true, GT5 is going to blow away FZ3. I didn't mean to imply it wouldn't. I just think Turn10 get a little bit too much shit because they are not working within the same constraints. If I have five cards, and you have two, I'm probably going to have the better pokerhand, I don't think me beating you proves I'm the better poker player. I might well be of course, but that game doesn't prove that.
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Turn10 got shit because they were slapping the emperor.
 
commedieu said:
Well in all fairness... Forza & Turn10 aren't perfectionists... and have no concept of the idea. They've released 3 titles that have just degraded over time, with 8 cars.

It doesn't take much to animate a spoiler for vehicle accuracy.

GT5 will trump Forza 4 & 5 as well. They've just become DLC cash out fests with the same features as the second title and compressed captures/darkened cockpits/damage swapping.

And Turn10 can't even churn out the DLC they promised.
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Them guys will be fine. The thing now is that GT5 has put itself so high and set the benchmark higher than anyone ever thought. In GT6, they will just have a feel day now that they've begun modeling PS4 quality car models. The foundation has been set and it's rock solid. For GT6, that foundation will be further reinforced and added upon. The wait was long but clearly it was worth it.

And we're not even talking about all the driving schools, the wallpaper generator in photo mode, all the tech improvements to the physics and sound, and much more.

The weather; it really is dynamic and truly affects the vehicles. Don't think I need to repeat what's already in the GT5 TGS thread but some people are really not aware what is in store for GT5.
 
bloodforge said:
Anybody can do lighting and shadowing like Polyphony. They just need to license the same third party lighting engine.
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14iiyir.gif
 
StuBurns said:
I don't get your argument, that's like saying if PD hadn't shipped a single GT so far, they could have spent 13 years and over a hundred million dollars on it. That wasn't an option. I doubt MGS said to Turn10 "Do you want to ship three games in four years or one in four years and use the budget for all three on that one?".
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My argument is that because they are just iterating on their previous games and adding more to what they've already done, they are just doing the same thing. I'm sure, if they wanted, Polyphony could've put out GT5 with a couple hundred cars, online, damage around 07. Then gone onto GT6 and added a couple hundred more cars, better online, weather etc. and gotten a similar result by 2010. But they chose to release one big package at one time and here we are
 
StuBurns said:
GT4 shipped in Japan in 2004. Turn10 shipped all three Forza since between numbered console iterations of GT.

GT5P, that is a good point, I think it's pretty crap personally. But, you're right, a crap PS3 game, and a crap PSP game in the time Turn10 made three pretty good console games.
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I know it isn't GT but Tourist Trophy did come out Feb 2nd 2006.
 
Yoboman said:
My argument is that because they are just iterating on their previous games and adding more to what they've already done, they are just doing the same thing. I'm sure, if they wanted, Polyphony could've put out GT5 with a couple hundred cars, online, damage around 07. Then gone onto GT6 and added a couple hundred more cars, better online, weather etc. and gotten a similar result by 2010. But they chose to release one big package at one time and here we are
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This is exactly what I was saying in my posts. The thing is, during that same development timeframe, GT5 still overshadows the competition by a large margin.

PD deserves no grief for what they've done. It's taken forever BUT look what we have to look forward to.
 
Yoboman said:
My argument is that because they are just iterating on their previous games and adding more to what they've already done, they are just doing the same thing. I'm sure, if they wanted, Polyphony could've put out GT5 with a couple hundred cars, online, damage around 07. Then gone onto GT6 and added a couple hundred more cars, better online, weather etc. and gotten a similar result by 2010. But they chose to release one big package at one time and here we are
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I don't believe that is the case, not any more so than in the GT series anyway. I don't think Forza 2 used any Forza 1 car models in the way GT5 is using GT4 ones for example.
 
StuBurns said:
But, you're right, a crap PS3 game, and a crap PSP game in the time Turn10 made three pretty good console games.
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You're out of your fucking mind. That is all.

StuBurns said:
I don't think Forza 2 used any Forza 1 car models in the way GT5 is using GT4 ones for example.
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They did.
 
Fender_Uk said:
if all the cars were premium it would almost be perfect
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Bollox, big fat hairy bollox! They have a long way to go before we can start trotting out statements like this. How about:

32 cars on track
Full and realistic damage model*
More premium cars
High detail shadows
Dynamic weather for all races (with > 20 laps) and racecourses
More tracks

*Damage footage I have seen has been disappointing to say the least, its worse than Forza (inflammatory!)
 
I am glad I own both the 360 and PS3. I'm able to enjoy both games equally. I've had a lot of time with FM3 over the past year and now its time to try GT5. They both have their strong points and weaknesses and they're both worth playing/owning if you can afford having both systems. Competition is a good thing. I'm sure haveing Turn10 around has pushed Polyphony to better themselves even further. That's all I want.
 
bloodforge said:
http://www.illuminatelabs.com/products
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Thought so however there are a fuck ton of big name clients like 2K, EA and SE. There is obviously something on top of just getting the engine which makes GT games look so good because I have yet to see that from other companies which license the engine. Forza 3 has some really good models but the lighting engine is fucking awful, the cars just look terrible thanks to it.
Gonna wait to be completely owned by showing EA, 2K, SE etc titles

Upsidedown Fuji said:
I am glad I own both the 360 and PS3. I'm able to enjoy both games equally. I've had a lot of time with FM3 over the past year and now its time to try GT5. They both have their strong points and weaknesses and they're both worth playing/owning if you can afford having both systems. Competition is a good thing. I'm sure haveing Turn10 around has pushed Polyphony to better themselves even further. That's all I want.
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Why are all these hippies entering this thread? Look at the thread title, people are out for blood!
 
StuBurns said:
I don't believe that is the case, not any more so than in the GT series anyway. I don't think Forza 2 used any Forza 1 car models in the way GT5 is using GT4 ones for example.
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It did, I couldn't tell you which, I'm quite sure there was a picture comparison around the time. And there were similar picture comparisons between 2 & 3, for courses and cars

If GT4 had been on Xbox quality hardware, I don't think we'd have been needing as massive an overhaul as the series needed to begin with.
 
T10 just has different priorities compared with nearly all other game developers. They decided to focus on the livery editor and online infrastructure and kinda left the racing aspect on the back burner. Its not like GT is the first game to have weather effects, and night racing, plenty of other studios have already implemented said features in their games. In fact i think the Forza games are the only ones thats still limited to 8 cars on the track, which is pretty sad.
 
“So, props to Kazunori Yamauchi-san and the PS1 team,” said Greenwalt. “That said,” he continued, “I feel that he’s passed us the baton. Perhaps he hasn’t meant to, but we have taken the genre to new levels and they’ve stopped evolving the genre. So again, tremendous respect to him, but I’d say the differentiator is they’re old school.” He conclued, “The emperor’s naked, and I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to slap him around, but no game competes [with] us right now.”
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Kiss the ring Greenwalt... kiss the ring...
 
Yoboman said:
It did, I couldn't tell you which, I'm quite sure there was a picture comparison around the time. And there were similar picture comparisons between 2 & 3, for courses and cars

If GT4 had been on Xbox quality hardware, I don't think we'd have been needing as massive an overhaul as the series needed to begin with.
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That's fair enough, but if you are talking about taking the complete budget of the series, and the complete time it's taken, GT still dwarfs Forza.

And I really don't think the argument is fair, you disagree, that's fine. I don't think having to release iterations is the same thing at all.
 
Upsidedown Fuji said:
I am glad I own both the 360 and PS3. I'm able to enjoy both games equally.
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How could you enjoy both equally? GT5 is clearly going to be better. I don't even see how that is up for debate anymore.
 
I like the Forza games. Sadly, I just don't think Turn10 has the time, money or talent Polyphony has to ever come close to what GT achieves.
 
evolution said:
T10 just has different priorities compared with nearly all other game developers. They decided to focus on the livery editor and online infrastructure and kinda left the racing aspect on the back burner. Its not like GT is the first game to have weather effects, and night racing, plenty of other studios have already implemented said features in their games. In fact i think the Forza games are the only ones thats still limited to 8 cars on the track, which is pretty sad.
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This is not a knock on T10 but I remember telling one of my coworkers who bought F3 that GT players buy the game for the love of cars. Forza players buy their respective game to paint their cars. It's a cool option but part of you statement is right. They have focused on those things BUT have now been caught in the online department. Livery editor doesn't seem like it's there but it was in the original spec sheet. The online though, it will be huge. Racing days and web integration are looking amazing.

Just about every aspect has been finely crafted in GT5 and it shows. That watch analogy doesn't even bare much weight anymore. GT5 is the high end watch with all the bells and whistles. Not the quality one with less.
 
bloodforge said:
I like the Forza games. Sadly, I just don't think Turn10 has the time, money or talent Polyphony has to ever come close to what GT achieves.
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I REALLY DISAGREE with this sentiment. In this case, MSFT bakes money and swims in it. They have plenty of money to throw around. It's down to the talent and dedication of the studios. I think no one would argue that PD is a world class studio. Heck, their trailers are events unto themselves.

This is really where the work mentalities and mission statements are far apart between the two. PD is run by a car enthusiast who is heavily involved in many things car related. The complete experience in GT5 really shows how much he really knows what car fanatics want. Realism, class, and everything associated with those sentiments.
 
StuBurns said:
That's fair enough, but if you are talking about taking the complete budget of the series, and the complete time it's taken, GT still dwarfs Forza.

And I really don't think the argument is fair, you disagree, that's fine. I don't think having to release iterations is the same thing at all.
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I honestly don't know where you are going with this. Yeah GT gets long development times and a big budget because they sell well. So what? All other games get compared to each other no matter what the development times or budget is. Bungie get a longer development time and assume budget on Halo titles compared to GG and Killzone because they sell better too yet they are constantly compared.

This is a gaming forum where people can grab one thing someone said in the gaming industry and it can become a big thread, that guy today saying Kinect will sell iPad numbers is a good example. Dan Greenwalt is constantly chatting shit about PD and then chespace is always around in GT threads adding his bit.......shit's gonna fly. Anyway PD also released Tourist Trophy in between GT4 and GT5, personally lurved it.
 
StuBurns said:
That's fair enough, but if you are talking about taking the complete budget of the series, and the complete time it's taken, GT still dwarfs Forza.

And I really don't think the argument is fair, you disagree, that's fine. I don't think having to release iterations is the same thing at all.
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Well what are their budgets roughly? They can't be too low, weren't there 400~ people working for Turn10 at some point during F3's development?
 
KingDizzi said:
I honestly don't know where you are going with this. Yeah GT gets long development times and a big budget because they sell well. So what? All other games get compared to each other no matter what the development times or budget is. Bungie get a longer development time and assume budget on Halo titles compared to GG and Killzone because they sell better too yet they are constantly compared.

This is a gaming forum where people can grab one thing someone said in the gaming industry and it can become a big thread, that guy today saying Kinect will sell iPad numbers is a good example. Dan Greenwalt is constantly chatting shit about PD and then chespace is always around in GT threads adding his bit.......shit's gonna fly. Anyway PD also released Tourist Trophy in between GT4 and GT5, personally lurved it.
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I bet KZ2 cost more than Halo Reach, I don't know that though.

My point was just that FZ3 took a fraction of the time and cost of GT5, so it stands to reason it would be a fraction as good to me.

And I already said giving them shit as people seems logical to me, Greenwalt seems like a bit of a twat, and Che was a full blown cunt on here. But being a twat doesn't also mean you're a bad video game developer.

People disagree that the budget/time matters, cool, I do.
 
StuBurns said:
This I certainly agree with. Give them shit for being twats of course, but that doesn't mean they aren't excellent game developers.
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they certainly are... whole studio has been tainted by the work of their community manager and his boss.
 
so annoying people pulling the card of "forza had less dev time" well put forza 2 and 3 dev time and features together, does it surpasses gt5 in features and quality? and how many things were just re-used on f3 from f2? its not like turn10 built 2 games completely from scratch
 
spwolf said:
Yet you pay same $60 for them both :D.
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This is actually a very good argument. I guess really I see the debate as who is better Turn10 or PD, and my point was they don't have the same resources, but the debate is actually what is better, FZ3 or GT5, and in that regard, nothing matters in terms of time or budget, you are completely right, they are both $60/£40 games, and in that regard, I should retract my argument. I didn't think of it that way, and you're right. Halo Reach blows away KZ2 to the point it's embarrassing to compare them, nothing about the development actually changes that.

Melfice7 said:
so annoying people pulling the card of "forza had less dev time" well put forza 2 and 3 dev time and features together, does it surpasses gt5 in features and quality? and how many things were just re-used on f3 from f2? its not like turn10 built 2 games completely from scratch
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It's not like PD built GT5 from scratch either, the vast majority of the cars are last-gen assets.
 
T10 just can't compete with PD. T10 employees probably have lives and steak dinners. PD employees sleep under their desk and get right back to work first thing in the morning(probably without even brushing their teeth!) Of course, they're still slow as hell but thier quality they turn out speaks for itself.
 
Frankly, this whole righteous nerd rage is embarrassing. Gran Turismo 5 seems to be a fantastic game. It's certainly the best looking console sim racer I've ever seen, it's extremely feature-rich, it's content-packed, and when all is said and done, it will probably be a better game than Forza 3.

That doesn't change the fact that Forza 3 is a damn good game and that at this moment it still is the definitive sim racer of this generation up to now. In a couple of months, the crown will probably go to GT5, and deservedly so.

It's also fair to assume that even with all the things that are amazing about GT5 - and there are plenty of them - some features will probably still be better in Forza 3 (customization and community features built around that are a pretty safe bet). That's because both games have somewhat different philosophies and they focus on different things. I really want that to remain the case. I don't want Turn10 to attempt to beat GT5 by emulating its features, I want them to try and take Greenawalt's own vision further. Let's face it, they probably couldn't beat Polyphony on their own turf anyway, not with that budget and that development cycle.

Whether Forza 4 will take the crown back (and let's not forget about GTR 3 and other upcoming games either) is irrelevant and it will probably be hard to judge without breaking it down for different types of racing enthusiasts. Both series will probably always have their strengths, things they just do better than competition. I'd love to see this rivalry continue and take both franchises even further in their own unique directions.
 
AndyD said:
Another suggestion is to divide the "list" into categories.
Content:
Gameplay:
Online:
Graphics:
Sound:
Other:

Because it would make more sense that way. For example you have listed the tracks/environments at the top and Gt's track generator in the middle somewhere. Those probably should be together.

Also you have rally racing at one point, then WRC license separately when those two logically go together.
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Yeah, I pretty much added the things as I thought about them, I have to admit that it's a pretty big mess. :lol
I distinguished WRC and rally racing because, they could easily get WRC cars even if they don't have snow or dirt tracks.



commedieu said:
Well in all fairness... Forza & Turn10 aren't perfectionists... and have no concept of the idea. They've released 3 titles that have just degraded over time, with 8 cars.

It doesn't take much to animate a spoiler for vehicle accuracy. GT5 will trump Forza 4 & 5 as well. They've just become DLC cash out fests with the same features as the second title and compressed captures/darkened cockpits/damage swapping. And Turn10 can't even churn out the DLC they promised.

Sure, they have cockpits for all the cars.. rendered in low resolution with broken tachometers' wrong side drive, wrong interior... just hacking a .3ds file from a manufacturer and calling it done. One of GT's premium models is probably 10x that of the forza counterpart down to the stitching shader. its not debatable imo.
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Wow, just wow. :lol :lol
It's safe to say that you didn't play the game !:lol


I think some people can't tell the difference between models, shaders and lighting.
If you take a car with 1M polygons but make it all mat (lights, glass, etc.. included) and put it in a shitty lighting environment, well it won't look better than a 400K polygon identical car with GT5's shaders and lighting...




Just to refresh some memories :

TofuR leak said:
Weather
Night/day
Active aero
Widebody kits with 12 inch wheels
Some really cool driver animations
Some digital gauge animations
Custom underbodies
Super high level of detail car models in replays
No exposed suspension cars like Ariel Atoms, Lotus 340Rs or Caterhams

Most of the cuts came about because there is immense pressure to hit the release date. There are careers on the line with this one, because FM1 and FM2 were so late. There WILL be a game called FM3 ready to go for October, the only question has been what kind of game it will be.
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That's why I agree with what some said about the development constraints not being the same. Many shortcoming of the Forza franchise come from Microsoft's choices. Awful JPEG compression is there because they don't allow USB support and are too cheap to get better servers. Video uploads being limited to 30s and poorly compressed in WMV is the same story. They probably didn't allow a mandatory install because of the Arcade owners. They pressured T10 a lot to get the games out and in my mind it's clear that they made them rush Forza 3 to get it out before what was then supposed to be GT5's release date (december 2009). All of that led to a product with many flaws independent from T10 wishes and a general lack of polish/details. With 6 more months/1 more year of development, they could have polished it, fixed many details and have an overall much better finished product.
That's why I'm eager to see Microsoft's reaction when they'll get spanked sale wise all around the world and 8MP photos start to pop-up everywhere. At the moment they probably think that they're doing very good and I really think they underestimate the power of the GT brand (especially in Europe).
Just getting those cut features in Forza 4 would match a good chunk of GT5's offering.
 
spwolf said:
they certainly are... whole studio has been tainted by the work of their community manager and his boss.
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I guess that's how you see it if you are a PD fan. If you are not a PD fan, then you know it's just pr talk. It might be a bit too much, but the only people butthurt about it are the people that only plan on buying GT5.

spwolf said:
Yet you pay same $60 for them both :D.
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Well, you also wait much longer for one of the games.

segarr said:
T10 just can't compete with PD. T10 employees probably have lives and steak dinners. PD employees sleep under their desk and get right back to work first thing in the morning(probably without even brushing their teeth!) Of course, they're still slow as hell but thier quality they turn out speaks for itself.
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I can't really tell if you are serious or not (Some of it seems serious, some does not). But you do realize that in the time it's taken between GT4 and GT5, T10 have managed to release 3 highly reviewed car games, right?

I mean, personally I would love to see T10 have the same budget and time to make a game that PD gets.
 
Trickster said:
I guess that's how you see it if you are a PD fan. If you are not a PD fan, then you know it's just pr talk. It might be a bit too much, but the only people butthurt about it are the people that only plan on buying GT5.



Well, you also wait much longer for one of the games.



I can't really tell if you are serious or not (Some of it seems serious, some does not). But you do realize that in the time it's taken between GT4 and GT5, T10 have managed to release 3 highly reviewed car games, right?

I mean, personally I would love to see T10 have the same budget and time to make a game that PD gets.
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Think about how awesome Diablo III will be, look at how long they have been making it. Diablo 2 came out so long ago. Same for Starcraft 2.

Also for a episode, HL2 episode 3 is taking years. Resistance 3 will be out in the time it takes Valve to make episode 3.
 
Trickster said:
I guess that's how you see it if you are a PD fan. If you are not a PD fan, then you know it's just pr talk. It might be a bit too much, but the only people butthurt about it are the people that only plan on buying GT5.



Well, you also wait much longer for one of the games.



I can't really tell if you are serious or not (Some of it seems serious, some does not). But you do realize that in the time it's taken between GT4 and GT5, T10 have managed to release 3 highly reviewed car games, right?

I mean, personally I would love to see T10 have the same budget and time to make a game that PD gets.
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Hasn't polyphony digital also released 3 games between gt4 and gt5?
 
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