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[Y2Kev]

Did che make it through the night? Post something brah.

holy shit....

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Hasn't polyphony digital also released 3 games between gt4 and gt5?

They don't count! It's not GT5.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

If we're doing this thing we also need to consider the greater staff numbers Turn10 has at its disposal.

 

[mintylurb]

Frankly, this whole righteous nerd rage is embarrassing. Gran Turismo 5 seems to be a fantastic game. It's certainly the best looking console sim racer I've ever seen, it's extremely feature-rich, it's content-packed, and when all is said and done, it will probably be a better game than Forza 3.

That doesn't change the fact that Forza 3 is a damn good game and that at this moment it still is the definitive sim racer of this generation up to now. In a couple of months, the crown will probably go to GT5, and deservedly so.

It's also fair to assume that even with all the things that are amazing about GT5 - and there are plenty of them - some features will probably still be better in Forza 3 (customization and community features built around that are a pretty safe bet). That's because both games have somewhat different philosophies and they focus on different things. I really want that to remain the case. I don't want Turn10 to attempt to beat GT5 by emulating its features, I want them to try and take Greenawalt's own vision further. Let's face it, they probably couldn't beat Polyphony on their own turf anyway, not with that budget and that development cycle.

Whether Forza 4 will take the crown back (and let's not forget about GTR 3 and other upcoming games either) is irrelevant and it will probably be hard to judge without breaking it down for different types of racing enthusiasts. Both series will probably always have their strengths, things they just do better than competition. I'd love to see this rivalry continue and take both franchises even further in their own unique directions.

Come on now. Why do you think Bish made this thread in the first place? It's better to have fz and gt fans duke it out here than let it spill over to the official threads.

Oh look. It's brotoro! /me hides

 

[Y2Kev]

holy shit....

HOLY SHIT

 

[Ploid 3.0]

If we're doing this thing we also need to consider the greater staff numbers Turn10 has at its disposal.

Whatever it takes to diminish the accomplishment of GT5. Think about it, could you give a ant credit for building a complex tunnel system when you see that it had thousands of workers. Suddenly you notice how unimpressive that dirt is.

 

[AndyD]

That's why I agree with what some said about the development constraints not being the same. Many shortcoming of the Forza franchise come from Microsoft's choices...

Just getting those cut features in Forza 4 would match a good chunk of GT5's offering.

You are right to a certain extent. Matching and exceeding GT5 in some feature areas will be necessary. Maybe its not T10's fault, but they need to be judged by the product they put out. Otherwise we can say its not PD's fault for the classic model cars, but Sony's for wanting the game out.

That said, i think T10 as developers will have a tough time matching GT.

In content for one, they do not have the pull PD and Kaz have in the car world, and its not just money that speaks, so MS coffers can only help so much. In visuals for another, as others said, some of F3 is reused from F2 and an F4 that reuses F3/F2 assets will be in the same area as GT5 reusing 4. A lot of the F3 interiors are very weak in comparison to GT's premium, so they will either have to be reworked or left as is. If reworked, they need time on the scale of GT5 production.

Another place where T10 dropped the ball is the constant DLC promised that did not really materialize. Sure there's been some 50 or so cars, but certainly not a lot, some are "dupes" of existing cars or multiple versions of the same car and there are still so many "requests" from the fanbase.

The interesting thing will be whether GT takes the same light DLC route, or heavily do it. Kaz has suggested he does not like DLC and would rather put out GT6 in a couple of years instead.

I think both developers worked the most they could under the constraints they had, but as a gamer if I had a choice, i would rather they take an extra year or two and put out a game like GT5 as I dont need a new Forza or GT every year or two, these are genre defining games unlike shooter of the month or arcade racer of the month releases.

 

[KingDizzi]

If we're doing this thing we also need to consider the greater staff numbers Turn10 has at its disposal.

I have great memory and recall Turn 10 having a fuck ton of employees, they were all around the world including Vietnam I think so yeah development time means shit once you look at the number of employees. Treyarch are making a game in two years however have 250 employees and I'm sure a tremendous budget. It's like that show '60 minute makeover' there are like 90 people working on one house so something which would take a week takes an hour.

This is actually a very good argument. I guess really I see the debate as who is better Turn10 or PD, and my point was they don't have the same resources, but the debate is actually what is better, FZ3 or GT5, and in that regard, nothing matters in terms of time or budget, you are completely right, they are both $60/£40 games, and in that regard, I should retract my argument. I didn't think of it that way, and you're right. Halo Reach blows away KZ2 to the point it's embarrassing to compare them, nothing about the development actually changes that.

Yes honey let it all out, this is the thread where all the shit goes.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Whatever it takes to diminish the accomplishment of GT5. Think about it, could you give a ant credit for building a complex tunnel system when you see that it had thousands of workers. Suddenly you notice how unimpressive that dirt is.

Well my point was that PD has had a workforce of about 150 whereas Turn10 had up to 400 at certain points. I'd love to see what PD could do with over double its workforce

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

You did see? Forza 2 + Forza 3 dev time > GT5 dev time

That's probably also true for the budget.

Not only is that statement not factually correct, that's also very flawed reasoning. The cycles (and therefore, the time you can invest in some features) are completely different when you have two games to finish, test and ship in the same amount of time another studio takes to develop only one. Of course, the former approach has some advantages as well. For instance, you get feedback much sooner.

And does anyone truly believe that something like GT PSP (with a lot of content probably already available from the PS2 days) required a lot of time and manpower to make? It was a side project, kind of like ODST was for Bungie.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Well my point was that PD has had a workforce of about 150 whereas Turn10 had up to 400 at certain points. I'd love to see what PD could do with over double its workforce

This is all news to me (your post plus the post above it). People have been talking like Forza had a small crew while GT has a massive group.

 

[StuBurns]

I have great memory and recall Turn 10 having a fuck ton of employees, they were all around the world including Vietnam I think so yeah development time means shit once you look at the number of employees. Treyarch are making a game in two years however have 250 employees and I'm sure a tremendous budget. It's like that show '60 minute makeover' there are like 90 people working on one house so something which would take a week takes an hour.



Yes honey let it all out, this is the thread where all the shit goes.

Thank you.

As for time 'meaning shit', what matters is man hours. 200 people for two years is cheaper than 100 people for five years for example. Admittedly, I don't know the budget for FZ3, but do you? Literal time doesn't matter, man hours does.

 

[Voyevoda007]

This thread makes me sad. Can't we all just enjoy both games. PD and Turn 10 are both amazing studios.

 

[StuBurns]

This thread makes me sad. Can't we all just enjoy both games. PD and Turn 10 are both amazing studios.

Out of interest, when you clicked on this thread, what did you expect?

 

[tfur]

What an interesting turn, seeing the comparison thread evolve into the excuses thread.

 

[mintylurb]

Out of interest, when you clicked on this thread, what did you expect?

 

[Metalmurphy]

Not only is that statement not factually correct

How come?

Forza 1 released in 2005, Tourist Trophy released in 2006, and I'm not even counting GTPSP, which obviously took them time to make... It was an entirely new engine with new physics and everything.

 

[spwolf]

Thank you.

As for time 'meaning shit', what matters is man hours. 200 people for two years is cheaper than 100 people for five years for example. Admittedly, I don't know the budget for FZ3, but do you? Literal time doesn't matter, man hours does.

why does it matter to you at all? In what world would you see as positive to pay same money for the game that has been developed less?

How can be a negative thing that GT5 cost $60 million to develop? How?

1. As a customer you are paying same for more.
2. As investor, PD gets better return on investment.

Kaz does not get money from the sky... Sony invests into PD because they have been making money for them. He is not slipping drugs into Sir Horwards drinks to get his projects approved.

 

[StuBurns]

why does it matter to you at all? In what world would you see as positive to pay same money for the game that has been developed less?

How can be a negative thing that GT5 cost $60 million to develop? How?

1. As a customer you are paying same for more.
2. As investor, PD gets better return on investment.

Kaz does not get money from the sky... Sony invests into PD because they have been making money for them. He is not slipping drugs into Sir Horwards drinks to get his projects approved.

I didn't say it did matter to me.

 

[soundscream]

This thread =

 

[Tears For Fears]

In this topic people pretend to know what they are talking about.

 

[Plippy]

What aspect of the physics engine are you referring to? Over steer, traction, handling? That's a pretty damn vague statement.

To be fair, it's been a long time since I tried the time trial, I didn't try it for more than an hour, and at the time it had trouble with my Fanatec wheel (the aforementioned wobble). It's certainly not a fair comparison to the full retail game.

Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure that what I didn't like was the "physics" so much as the sensory feedback. I really dig how FM3 implements visual, audio, and haptic cues to let me know what's going on with weight transfer and tire grip. This is, to me, what makes all the difference between watching a YouTube cockpit video of a real race and actually feeling like I'm racing in FM3. It might not even be particularly realistic in FM3 (I'm not a pro), but it does feel good to me as someone who uses a wheel w/clutch and has posted my share of top 100 times.

As an example, in FM3 I feel like I can gauge how hard I'm braking by seeing how the cockpit camera moves in relation to the car model and track. I like to know how close I am to peak grip by listening to tire noise and feeling vibration. I like to be able to feel the amount of over/under steer based on FFB. I felt like the GT5 TT was lacking in all of these areas, but maybe it was just more understated than I'm used to.

All that being said, I really hope that GT5 ends up blowing me away and making me a true believer . I've pre-ordered the fancypants edition and I'm going to do my best to give it a chance to win me over. Now if they can just get Porsche on board. And Segway.

 

[Neo 007]

I feel.....................nice.

 

[Niks]

Man, looking back this thread delivers on so many forms...
:lol

 

[Zaptruder]

I didn't say it did matter to me.

Then who does it matter to? Because you seem to be the one bringing this shit up.

 

[StuBurns]

Then who does it matter to? Because you seem to be the one bringing this shit up.

I wouldn't say that was true. I was just trying to explain why there won't be a Forza to match GT5 this generation, as someone had asked.

 

[scandisk_]

Weather Gameplay Footage

 

[Salacious Crumb]

These gifs are going to get realy annoying when they start showing up in places they don't belong a la killzone 2.

As for this thread, graphically GT5 is the obvious winner. no one should be annoyed by that, any forza fan should also be a gt fan and vice versa. They both appeal to exactly the same people.

 

[StuBurns]

Weather Gameplay Footage

Can you play GT5 without the HUD? It would like insane.

 

[NewFresh]

As for this thread, graphically GT5 is the obvious winner. no one should be annoyed by that, any forza fan should also be a gt fan and vice versa. They both appeal to exactly the same people.

You forget about the console divide and the people who still think that one is better than the other. I still know people who think that THIS is relevant.

 

[metareferential]

Can you play GT5 without the HUD? It would like insane.

THIS.

The game is already unbelievable. But that would just be the icing on the cake.

I don't want written things on my plasma, ruining how gorgeous the game is.

 

[Razgreez]

As for this thread, graphically GT5 is the obvious winner. no one should be annoyed by that, any forza fan should also be a gt fan and vice versa. They both appeal to exactly the same people.

Err... no. I have my gripes with GT5 but the disproportionate forza cars make my eyes and brain hurt disproportionately - T10 obviously haven't heard of QC. Wont even bring up the handling of the cars. No self-respecting car enthusiast could possibly approve of forza's car model massacring

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Err... no. I have my gripes with GT5 but the disproportionate forza cars make my eyes and brain hurt disproportionately - T10 obviously haven't heard of QC. Wont even bring up the handling of the cars. No self-respecting car enthusiast could possibly approve of forza's car model massacring

If you say so.

 

[watership]

Err... no. I have my gripes with GT5 but the disproportionate forza cars make my eyes and brain hurt disproportionately - T10 obviously haven't heard of QC. Wont even bring up the handling of the cars. No self-respecting car enthusiast could possibly approve of forza's car model massacring

I think it's just you bro. No, really.

 

[CrushDance]

No thanks, but a three year development cycle would be dandy.

:lol Unbelievable. You people do realize for the billionth time that this is not the standard development cycle for PD right? it took 5 years because they scrapped everything and started fresh. This whole "bu bu 5 years" thing is so old and wrong.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

If you say so.

Well you did say any, and it is his opinion. For me, I'm in that console divide. Forza isn't on ps3 so I don't have much interest in it. Only reason I payed any attention to it is the whole E3 thing.

 

[StuBurns]

:lol Unbelievable. You people do realize for the billionth time that this is not the standard development cycle for PD right? it took 5 years because they scrapped everything and started fresh. This whole "bu bu 5 years" thing is so old and wrong.

When you say 'scrapped everything', what did they scrap?

 

[Lion Heart]

When you say 'scrapped everything', what did they scrap?

Probably that whole "GT HD" thing with all cars being DLC, you pick and choose what you want to own. It wasn't pretty.

 

[Sydle]

:lol Unbelievable. You people do realize for the billionth time that this is not the standard development cycle for PD right? it took 5 years because they scrapped everything and started fresh. This whole "bu bu 5 years" thing is so old and wrong.

something something cars from GT4

 

[Razgreez]

When you say 'scrapped everything', what did they scrap?

They scrapped everything*





*except the GT4 aka standard models and the basic design of the already existing fantasy tracks but yeah everything - except for a few things i might not have mentioned or am unaware of

 

[∀ Narayan]

Did che make it through the night? Post something brah.

Oh my fucking GOD.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Well you did say any, and it is his opinion. For me, I'm in that console divide. Forza isn't on ps3 so I don't have much interest in it. Only reason I payed any attention to it is the whole E3 thing.

It's fine to have no interest in it, but actively belittling Forza while singing the praises of GT5 is obvious and sad.

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but plenty of people in this thread are.

 

[StuBurns]

Probably that whole "GT HD" thing with all cars being DLC, you pick and choose what you want to own. It wasn't pretty.

But they didn't scrap the work did they? The GT HD demo's track for example is in GT5, they improved it, but it's not like they thru the content away or anything.

They changed the concept and name, I don't think it's fair to say they scraped everything, certainly not after they announced GT5P which was '07.

 

[CrushDance]

But they didn't scrap the work did they? The GT HD demo's track for example is in GT5, they improved it, but it's not like they thru the content away or anything.

They changed the concept and name, I don't think it's fair to say they scraped everything, certainly not after they announced GT5P which was '07.

They redid everything from the ground up, especially the physics model. Theres an interview where Kaz explains why the game took so long, I'll try and find it.

Extra goodies like car-related video content and shared profiles are nice, but what's most important is the racing experience. The biggest bit of information for "GT" fans is that the old physics engine from previous games has been scrapped and the physics engine for GT5: Prologue, and ultimately GT5, is completely rebuilt from the ground up.

Yamauchi promises that the new physics engine will be even more realistic and says he's especially proud of the way the drifting physics work. During the demo he said that the team brought in a professional drift racing driver to come in and test the new physics. While playing the game the driver was able to replicate all the things he could do on an actual track in real life.

As always, the graphics for GT5: Prologue are breathtaking. Other racing games have done a good job of representing cars on the screen, but Polyphony is able to go an extra step that just makes its cars look better than everyone else's. To give us an idea of how much of a jump Polyphony is making in visual fidelity, Yamauchi pointed out the cars in Gran Turismo 4 were made up of 4,000 polygons. The cars in GT5: Prologue are made up of an average of 200,000 polygons.

Not only that, but the game supports HDR lighting and runs in 1080p at 60 frames per second. Also, the total number of cars on the track has gone up to 16. You can also now drive in a first-person cockpit view. The interiors of every car in the game will be meticulously recreated. Yamauchi drove around Suzuka Circuit in Japan in this mode so we were able to see the level of detail first-hand. It's impressive.


Complaints about the "GT" series have included a high learning curve and dumb AI. Polyphony is setting out to address both issues. The AI will now be aware of the cars around it and will react accordingly to your attempts to pass it. Yamauchi said, "Without good AI, the race experience is ruined." We got to see a bit of this in action and the "bumper car" issues of the previous games didn't appear. There will also be two levels of realism, Standard, and Professional. Both are realistic, but according to Yamauchi, Standard is more "forgiving." We not so sure this will be enough for newbies who have always found the series to be difficult to approach.

For those who were dissapointed with GTHD, GT5 has a recomplete physics and simulatotion engine remake as well as complete redone on the sound and the graphics are better on GT5 than GTHD. GT5 is the most realistic driving simulator up to date.

something something cars from GT4

...Do you really not get why that is?

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

How come?

Forza 1 released in 2005, Tourist Trophy released in 2006, and I'm not even counting GTPSP, which obviously took them time to make... It was an entirely new engine with new physics and everything.

So even if pre-production work on their PS3 GT tech hasn't started until Tourist Trophy was finished, and that's unlikely for such an important franchise, that's 4 years versus 4 years. What's not to understand?

 

[Razgreez]

So even if pre-production work on their PS3 GT tech hasn't started until Tourist Trophy was finished, and that's unlikely for such an important franchise, that's 4 years versus 4 years. What's not to understand?

4yrs and all we get is this

Fair trade

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

4yrs and all we get is this

Fair trade

Not saying that it isn't at all. Although, if someone showed you that gif in 2005 and said "You'll get this... in 2010!", I'm sure you'd be a little annoyed

 

[Lagspike_exe]

What an interesting turn, seeing the comparison thread evolve into the excuses thread.

Thread seems vastly different now then back in the beginning. Back then, I saw some pictures. Now, I'm seeing some unrelated years, millions of dollars, Killzone and Halo. Are people talking about liveries?

 

[Razgreez]

Not saying that it isn't at all. Although, if someone showed you that gif in 2005 and said "You'll get this... in 2010!", I'm sure you'd be a little annoyed

No doubt i'd be lying if i said i've not been somewhat perturbed by the time it has taken for this game to be developed. However unlike with most games this one has, seemingly, improved in leaps and bounds over the years it's been in development or for it can be forgiven. As long as the game does not release any pay-for dlc within the first yr after its actual release i.e. things that should've been on disc but aren't, it's all good. As a consumer i just want to feel satisfied at the end of the day - not ripped off

Mind you it's closer to 2011 actually:lol

 

[Lagspike_exe]

No doubt i'd be lying if i said i've not been somewhat perturbed by the time it has taken for this game to be developed. However unlike with most games this one has, seemingly, improved in leaps and bounds over the years it's been in development or for it can be forgiven. As long as the game does not release any pay-for dlc within the first yr after its actual release i.e. things that should've been on disc but aren't, it's all good. As a consumer i just want to feel satisfied at the end of the day - not ripped off

You would feel ripped of by buying GT5 for $60? Are you fucking serious?