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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

V

-viper-

Banned
When you move the camera around in 'pre photomode' in Forza 3, the awesome anti-aliasing effect disappears. When you stop the camera, the AA effects are applied on the fly.
 
Windom Earle

Windom Earle

Member
Unregistered007 said:
The thread is filled with fan boys arguing about which SIM is better or what not.
Click to expand...

I've used the custom setting that was posted somewhere deep in the Shift OT when the game came out. Post-patch I went with default settings and it was ok. Changing a few settings won't make the driving model significantly better IMO.

Also don't expect in depth answers on racing sims in this thread. You know why.
 
M

m0dus

Banned
No, viper. The awesome AA is not actually applied until you hit the button. The DOF and blur effects aren't applied until the camera is stopped, however
 
A

acm2000

Member
"Standard models have minor deformation and scratches," said Sony, "Premium cars have greater visible level of damage, and Premium racing models have the highest level of damage."

so basically they admit most the car models are too shit to have the damage system applied to them?
 
L

LCfiner

Member
acm2000 said:
"Standard models have minor deformation and scratches," said Sony, "Premium cars have greater visible level of damage, and Premium racing models have the highest level of damage."

so basically they admit most the car models are too shit to have the damage system applied to them?
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Actually, I thank you for posting this as I didn't realize the crazy damage with panels and hoods breaking off the cars was limited to race modified vehicles. Now I will make sure to save up some credits and create a couple RM vehicles in game.
 
J

jett

D-Member
m0dus said:
No, it seems you are unfortunately completely ignorant of what the hell you're arguing about, despite the fact that 4 people have already laid the knowledge out for you. Let me spell it out: that picture that has your knickers tied is real time, because it is being generated by the console in real time. Ie, you can manipulate said camera. That is why the HUD is still visible. This applies to BOTH GAMES. the only thing actually hitting the PHOTO button (in forza ) does is upsample the image AA and the effect resolution. Let's be totally clear: the only thing PRE RENDERED about Forza or GT is the video intro. That is the high res 'showroom model' of the car, which you"d be aware of, had you played the game. The user in that screenie hasn't taken the picture yet.


Are we clear? I'm now the 3rd or 4th person to clarify this.
If that is not clear enough, and you want to argue this extremely basic concept further, let me know, I'd be happy to give you a little vacation from this thread.
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Since you've threatened to ban me, I'll drop it.
 
N

nelsonroyale

Member
This thread has a impressive amount of pages with very few valid comparisons...

Its a pity GT5 doesn't look like the photo mode stuff...the images in that thread blow away even crysis...best photomode ever...
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I don't see why this is so hard to figure out. Real-time means the console generates it...well, in real time, the fact that the game's still interactive at this point makes it most apparent. It's not like the game's playing a movie, or takes a few minutes to render it before spitting out an image, or moving at a very bad framerate.
 
L

Littleberu

Banned
jett said:
I know it's screencap taken by gamekult themselves, but I don't believe for a second that image quality is actually applied when the game is in motion, in any mode, considering this:

ME0001173227_2.jpg


is what the game looks like when there's nearly nothing on screen. What I guess is that FM3 gives you a rendered preview of what your screenshot is going to look, making the render on the fly when the camera is static? I dunno.

If it wasn't rendered, surely we would have heard by now of the magical real-time 16XMSAA FM3 uses in the photomode. :p
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It's also a screen of a menu, where the game has to load the car faster and without loading.
 
V

Vicetrailia

Member
acm2000 said:
"Standard models have minor deformation and scratches," said Sony, "Premium cars have greater visible level of damage, and Premium racing models have the highest level of damage."

so basically they admit most the car models are too shit to have the damage system applied to them?
Click to expand...

Standards = Paint.
Premium = Paint + Deformation

So yes, the standards are too shit.
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
nelsonroyale said:
Its a pity GT5 doesn't look like the photo mode stuff...the images in that thread blow away even crysis...best photomode ever...
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Photomode looks incredible so long as the background stays out of focus. Crysis in photomode is god-tier shit though so watch what you say.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Littleberu said:
It's also a screen of a menu, where the game has to load the car faster and without loading.
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Which has nothing to do with whether or not the car's being generated in real-time or not.

Some of the previews our artists use are pretty close to real-time as they can be pretty interactive - yes, the model they're looking at may be isolated by itself on the screen, but it's still in real-time. Only when they kick it out to the renderfarm for a final render is it no longer real-time.

If you are intending to say something else, use the proper term. I'm guessing "real-time" isn't what some of you really are trying to say.
 
lowrider007

lowrider007

Licorice-flavoured booze?
Changing the subject slightly I actually love GT5's interface, (although I do wish it was faster), it's feels like I've booted up a linux GT distro, it's pretty awesome.
 
X

Xun

Member
lowrider007 said:
Changing the subject slightly I actually love GT5's interface, (although I do wish it was faster), it's feels like I've booted up a linux GT distro, it's pretty awesome.
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Agreed.
 
S

shinnn

Member
Crag Dweller said:
Those A.I. cars seem to be going pretty slow. They should of tested it with the cars at race speeds.
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I think in some FM3 parts the AI is in post-race. They slow down after the race ends.
 
H

h3ro

Member
lowrider007 said:
Changing the subject slightly I actually love GT5's interface, (although I do wish it was faster), it's feels like I've booted up a linux GT distro, it's pretty awesome.
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I think it looks great as well.

Just WAY too many redundant and unnecessary screens going into and out of a race that screw up the flow of the game. I mean, do I really need separate screens/popup windows for race winnings and experience points? Also, why, right after showing me how much experience my Bspec driver just got, does the game feel the need to show me that same stat again, on a separate page, that I have to then go to Exit to leave.

Streamlined as a brick. Hopefully they add hotkeys and remove some of the unnecessary screens. PD looks like they're working on refining the game so hopefully it gets better.
 
S

szaromir

Banned
m0dus said:
No, it seems you are unfortunately completely ignorant of what the hell you're arguing about, despite the fact that 4 people have already laid the knowledge out for you. Let me spell it out: that picture that has your knickers tied is real time, because it is being generated by the console in real time. Ie, you can manipulate said camera. That is why the HUD is still visible. This applies to BOTH GAMES. the only thing actually hitting the PHOTO button (in forza ) does is upsample the image AA and the effect resolution. Let's be totally clear: the only thing PRE RENDERED about Forza or GT is the video intro. That is the high res 'showroom model' of the car, which you"d be aware of, had you played the game. The user in that screenie hasn't taken the picture yet.
Click to expand...
I wonder how they achieve this sort of AA though. Could it blend frames Halo Reach style (which gave jaggies-free image as long as nothing was moving/rotating) on top of MSAA? Since the camera moves slow in photo mode, it wouldn't produce noticable ghosting artifacts.

I'll download the FM3 demo and look into it.:D
 
M

m0dus

Banned
szaromir said:
I wonder how they achieve this sort of AA though. Could it blend frames Halo Reach style (which gave jaggies-free image as long as nothing was moving/rotating) on top of MSAA? Since the camera moves slow in photo mode, it wouldn't produce noticable ghosting artifacts.

I'll download the FM3 demo and look into it.:D
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I don't think the demo actually has photomode capability.

F3's photomode runs at a lower framerate than the race or the replays, because the showroom high-poly model for the player's car can be loaded if you press "x" to focus on it. the other cars default to the low LOD models, though you can still take pics of them. Also, more post-processing effects (DOF, blur) are added. It is certainly not representative of your car IN RACE, but it is all real time. Pressing "A" to take the snapshot gives you a fully AA'd image, though the compression on the saved image still leaves alot to be desired.

Here's a quick shot of the photomode interface. as you can see, it's all realtime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvad5WYehpE&feature=related
 
G

G Rom

Member
m0dus said:
No, viper. The awesome AA is not actually applied until you hit the button. The DOF and blur effects aren't applied until the camera is stopped, however
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I don't want to add oil to the fire but that's actually not entirely true. If you take a picture in Forza 3 and go back without moving the camera or messing with the sliders, it keeps the photo. The HUD will be placed over the taken photo with all the effects (including AA) applied.

That's actually part of a trick to get a non watermarked high quality photo if you have a HD capture card.

That was just my two cent on this... :)



Back to the topic, I think (after playing extensively GT5) that both games have some major flaws but each also have a lot of good things. If only Turn 10 and PD could get together and make the greatest racing game of all time !:D
However, now that GT5 is out and we can finally play it, I look very much forward to E3 '11 and the reveal of the next Forza. Especially because we know that one of their focus are shaders and lighting and because of that list of cut features from Forza 3. I would be happy with a lot/everything on this list making it in Forza 4 along with fixed online and career.
I just hope that Turn 10 won't get all cocky again and trash GT5 by only pointing out its shortcomings and missing the great things that it does and from which they could learn a lot.
 
M

m0dus

Banned
G Rom said:
I don't want to add oil to the fire but that's actually not entirely true. If you take a picture in Forza 3 and go back without moving the camera or messing with the sliders, it keeps the photo. The HUD will be placed over the taken photo with all the effects (including AA) applied.

That's actually part of a trick to get a non watermarked high quality photo if you have a HD capture card.

That was just my two cent on this... :).
Click to expand...

The point I was belaboring was that when you are IN photomode, your interface is still realtime. You are able to manipulate the image of the high-poly car before hitting the button to apply all effects. the car isn't 'pre-rendered' in any fashion.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
m0dus said:
The point I was belaboring was that when you are IN photomode, your interface is still realtime. You are able to manipulate the image of the high-poly car before hitting the button to apply all effects. the car isn't 'pre-rendered' in any fashion.
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I'm not sure if we're being clear enough. Maybe we can explain it in even simpler terms if things aren't getting through.
 
C

Cloudy

Banned
Did Forza 3 have an option to use the right stick as the gas pedal and brake? It really makes a difference in a racing game for me (I never played GT3 or GT4 so maybe this isn't a new feature)
 
M

m0dus

Banned
jett said:
Since you've threatened to ban me, I'll drop it.
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Dude, I'm not going to ban you. Going back over your post, I see that you were making a valid observation regarding the AA applied to that image. If I seemed to be condescending, I apologize, But you were like the 3rd person to toss around the term 'pre-rendered.' That term implies it was a shot done in a studio before the game launched. Photomode lets you manipulate the scene in realtime. I imagine GT5 is the same way.
 
G

G Rom

Member
m0dus said:
The point I was belaboring was that when you are IN photomode, your interface is still realtime. You are able to manipulate the image of the high-poly car before hitting the button to apply all effects. the car isn't 'pre-rendered' in any fashion.
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Yes I understand and know that very well from my 800+ photos taken in Forza 3. :D
I was just pointing out that it was possible to have the (pre)rendered photo with effects and huge AA applied while still having the photo mode HUD, some people said it wasn't possible. That's all. :)
 
M

m0dus

Banned
G Rom said:
Yes I understand and know that very well from my 800+ photos taken in Forza 3. :D
I was just pointing out that it was possible to have the (pre)rendered photo with effects and huge AA applied while still having the photo mode HUD, some people said it wasn't possible. That's all. :)
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Dude . . . :lol

The term is 'post processing'.

not 'pre-rendered'
 
G

G Rom

Member
:lol at your gif XiaNaphryz !


m0dus said:
Dude . . . :lol

The term is 'post processing'.

not 'pre-rendered'
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Yeah I know that it 's not pre-rendered, that's why I put the pre in parenthesis. I knew it would offend someone, didn't think it would be you !:lol
Isn't "rendered" right too though ? I mean the photo do get rendered for a short time before being put on screen, like in a CAD software. Honest question, as I know you're into these things... :)
 
M

m0dus

Banned
G Rom said:
:lol at your gif XiaNaphryz !




Yeah I know that it 's not pre-rendered, that's why I put the pre in parenthesis. I knew it would offend someone, didn't think it would be you !:lol
Isn't "rendered" right too though ? I mean the photo do get rendered for a short time before being put on screen, like in a CAD software. Honest question, as I know you're into these things... :)
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CG: serious business.

technically, every frame you see in game is 'rendered', only your console is doing it every few milliseconds or so. it's only when all the post processing effects are applied does the render time skyrocket to, say, 5 seconds.

Something is 'pre-rendered' when it's done on a workstation at the dev studio, like your CG intros or cutscenes. It doesn't involve the game engine at all, though sometimes they do use assets/models generated for the game. This is done well in advance of the game's launch.

Looking back on the previous page, that ferrari pic in the previous thread was a realtime shot, perhaps with post processing applied, but not a pre-rendered shot.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
m0dus said:
Something is 'pre-rendered' when it's done on a workstation at the dev studio, like your CG intros or cutscenes. It doesn't involve the game engine at all, though sometimes they do use assets/models generated for the game. This is done well in advance of the game's launch.
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Technically, you can pre-render something on an end-user's console as well (i.e. movie files that can get uploaded to Youtube).

The main distinction really is that rendering = you see it happening onscreen (and if the framerate's fast enough, it would be real-time), and pre-rendering = the system chugs away for some period of time and then spits out something that can be displayed and/or played back in the case of a movie file.
 
J

jett

D-Member
m0dus said:
Dude, I'm not going to ban you. Going back over your post, I see that you were making a valid observation regarding the AA applied to that image. If I seemed to be condescending, I apologize, But you were like the 3rd person to toss around the term 'pre-rendered.' That term implies it was a shot done in a studio before the game launched. Photomode lets you manipulate the scene in realtime. I imagine GT5 is the same way.
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All right no worries, maybe I misused the term, I was only in applying it the sense that the image quality applied to the final shot was super high quality. I was only talking about IQ/anti-aliasing really.

The only difference with GT5 is that the output is much crazier, images come out at 8 megapixels(and I believe that's downsampled from an even higher resolution) in special photomode locations, 1080p during races.

Good times for all! :p
 
MMaRsu

MMaRsu

Member
Holy shit, what the fuck is with the people itt not understanding what pre-rendered and realtime actually mean :lol :lol. How long have you people been gaming? LOL
 
G

G Rom

Member
m0dus said:
CG: serious business.

technically, every frame you see in game is 'rendered', only your console is doing it every few milliseconds or so. it's only when all the post processing effects are applied does the render time skyrocket to, say, 5 seconds.

Something is 'pre-rendered' when it's done on a workstation at the dev studio, like your CG intros or cutscenes. It doesn't involve the game engine at all, though sometimes they do use assets/models generated for the game. This is done well in advance of the game's launch.

Looking back on the previous page, that ferrari pic in the previous thread was a realtime shot, perhaps with post processing applied, but not a pre-rendered shot.
Click to expand...

Damn, how could have I made more a fool of myself ? Shame on me, I already knew what you said about rendering. I don't know why but when I think about "render", I only think about long rendering in a photo mode or a CAD software. That's why I asked this (dumb) question... :-/

Can I blame it on english not being my native language
please
?:lol
 
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