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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Opus Angelorum said:
The photo modes are funtional, however when they are used to show how good the game can look (when in reality the cars look much poorer in-game) it becomes an issue.

Some the of the GT5 photos look unbelievable, in-game...a different story.

And Forza 3 has the same issue, although not as obvious as Turn 10 are not attempting outright realism.
Uh...you're completely wrong on that one. The cars dont look "much poorer" at all.

Has Turn 10 supported Forza with just car packs or have their been game updates/track packs as well?

edit: time to repost the best post last page:

Yoritomo said:
Long post incoming. I've spent extensive time with both games. 150+ hours racing in Forza (maybe more I haven't checked my time lately) and I've got every gold license and every challenge in GT5 golded that's available for a level 20 driver. Both using the same wheel, a Fanatec PWTS with clubsports.

My impressions.

Both are great games with a very similar focus. I play lots of racing sims since it's the only genre that I'm good at. I just renewed my iRacing sub for another year. Prior to Formula 1 races I run the track the race will be on in rFactor with the FSONE 2009 mod. I run the tracks for 3-4 hours to get a good feel for what I'll be watching any given sunday. I've played most every sim out there. Ferrari Virtual Academy, RBR with the RSRBR (rallyesim) mod, NetKar Pro, Simbin games, NFS shift heavily modded. Hell I even play and love recent codemasters games although they're not really sims at all. It''s been years since doing so but I also used to have an old 240sx that I would run at a local club's track and down in College Station on a regular basis. I've since sold that car and am concentrating on my family and saving up for a bigger house, anyway, in a few years I'll pick up another FR car and go back to doing track days at the local track.

Anyone arguing that one game is SO MUCH BETTER than the other is a moron. They're both very similar games with similar design goals. Each game does certain things better.

GT5 has better handling with the wheel and primarily because Forza has an active steering assist that you cannot turn off. This is really frustrating because Forza does so many things better with the wheel. I can tell via FFB when the rear is stepping out or I can feel a FWD car has torque steer. I can't feel either of these things in GT5. I'll explain why even in the technical sense if Forza actually has better FFB why I just can't give it the nod over GT5 at the end of the post.

The vehicles in Forza feel flat, and there's something wrong with the suspension modeling, this feeling of flatness is exacerbated by replay cameras that are LOCKED on the car so you get less of an impression of visual body roll during replays. GT5 handles the feel of the suspension and weight transfer better.

Both games have issues. Incorrect specs, modeling, and weird things with some of Forza's cars, especially some of the DLC vehicles. GT5 seems to have the brake balance wrong on almost every car. The rear wheels should not lock up before the front wheels on almost any modern vehicle but that seems to be the case in GT5. Tire grip seems to go from unrealistic levels at the bottom end to a happy area around comfort soft and some of the sport tires to unrealistic levels at the top. The racing tires don't have the correct amount of falloff in the tire force curve. You can't have universal vehicle settings like turning Traction Control off as a preference for all your cars. GT5 comes up lacking if you're using an H-Gate shifter as well. They introduced some kludges to prevent power shifting so Clutch users don't have a speed advantage. Stupid decision.

Revisiting the Forza steering assist issue: On the full 900 degree setting I only have to counter steer about 60 degree for the car in game to go into FULL OPPOSITE LOCK. It's why the game feels so easy with a wheel. It also removes a lot of the tension since it sort of corrects slides for you. For instance in GT5 on the full nurburgring AMG intermediate challenge I dipped the rear wheels into the grass coming out of a corner. This sent the rear wheels wide and I had to counter steer, and I had to work for it. As in I hit full opposite lock at 450 degrees feathered the throttle and unwound the steering wheel so I didn't go into a tank slapper. My heart was pounding and I could hear blood rushing to my brain. I can't really get that feeling with forza because it holds my hand too much.

I think GT5 has higher highs and much lower lows than Forza 3. Forza 3 is a more consistent experience, and really excels at tuning, community features, controller interpolation, tire falloff and modeling for the entire range of tires, sound, some graphical aspects, and collision between vehicles (rubbing is racing). GT5 excels at vehicle dynamics, huge variety in the single player campaign, presentation (not counting some weird UI decisions), overall art direction, and the variety of experiences you can have(yeah I mentioned this twice, it's the best part of the game).
 
chubigans said:
Uh...you're completely wrong on that one. The cars dont look "much poorer" at all.

In my opinion, they are. It is very easy to discern between an image that is taken in-game and one that is taken during photo mode.
 

saladine1

Junior Member
You know, I'd really love to hear from Dan Greenawalt.
I'd like to know what he's feeling and thinking at the moment.
I wonder why he hasn't come out and said anything yet seeing how he's a little outspoken.
 
saladine1 said:
You know, I'd really love to hear from Dan Greenawalt.
I'd like to know what he's feeling and thinking at the moment.
I wonder why he hasn't come out and said anything yet seeing how he's a little outspoken.
Last I heard Dan said they were running out of things to "push" in forza :lol

Off the top of my head they could improve lighting, bring back engine sounds changing depending on exausts, better video recording output, more cars on the track, much less boring single player experiance, bring back forza 2 leagues, AI which actually tries to overtake you...
 
Opus Angelorum said:
In my opinion, they are. It is very easy to discern between an image that is taken in-game and one that is taken during photo mode.
Extremely easy. As long as you have sight anyway.

Photo mode is godly in GT5, no question.
 
saladine1 said:
You know, I'd really love to hear from Dan Greenawalt.
I'd like to know what he's feeling and thinking at the moment.
I wonder why he hasn't come out and said anything yet seeing how he's a little outspoken.
He's busy playing GT5.
 

saladine1

Junior Member
Diablohead said:
Last I heard Dan said they were running out of things to "push" in forza :lol

Off the top of my head they could improve lighting, bring back engine sounds changing depending on exausts, better video recording output, more cars on the track, much less boring single player experiance, bring back forza 2 leagues, AI which actually tries to overtake you...
Obviously,there's plenty of room for improvement.
Remember the 'Tofu r' leak that mentioned a few things that got cut from the game?

Other things that got cut:

Weather
Night/day
Active aero (again!)
Widebody kits with 12 inch wheels
Some really cool driver animations
Some digital gauge animations
Custom underbodies (with rollover comes undercarriage modeling - unfortunately, all the cars use a generic layouts, so sometimes they are wrong; like the Lamborghinis have the transmission rearward of the engine instead of infront, etc.)
Super high level of detail car models in replays (Currently the super high detailed models are used in the UI homespace/garage, thumbnails, livery editor, and photo mode).
No exposed suspension cars like Ariel Atoms, Lotus 340Rs or Caterhams, even though T10 owns PGR and they had the tech to model working suspensions.

Most of the cuts came about because there is immense pressure to hit the release date. There are careers on the line with this one, because FM1 and FM2 were so late. There WILL be a game called FM3 ready to go for October, the only question has been what kind of game it will be.

I'm pretty sure that FM4 will deliver, I just hope that they get around to implementing those things and more...
 
phosphor112 said:
Yep, even if it was a glitch comparison thread. One game just came out, the other has had patches over the past year or so.


One game had 2 years of development and the other had like 6 years... What was your point again?
 

G Rom

Member
This list of cut feature is why I eagerly anticipate the reveal of Forza 4.

The majority of the things on that list are minor and "easy" to implement (active aero, working gauges, etc..). The biggest challenge that Turn 10 will face will be changeable weather and time of day.
Now if you add other things than what's on this list (ie other than graphics improvement), IMO Turn 10 has to restore the online racing part of the game and deeply rethink the offline career. GT5 showed us what a varied career mode look like. Only problem is that GT5's career mode seems rather short, especially the great parts (Special Events).

For Forza 4, I just hope that Microsoft will lift some limitations for Turn 10. At this point, I don't see why the game couldn't have a mandatory install. Even Forza 3 was begging for that as you couldn't complete the career mode without disc 2 installed...
I can't imagine what it will be like with ±600 cars and ±25 environments if MS doesn't allow a mandatory install. :lol
Oh and I don't want of these awful 720p highly compressed photos anymore, Microsoft. Either allow USB export (won't happen) or buy some servers so that Turn 10 can allow us to make at the very least 1080p shots with minimum compression...



Of course, that's if they don't go full on Kinect... :-/

Edit :
LittleJohnny said:
One game had 2 years of development and the other had like 6 years... What was your point again?

To be fair, a lot of assets from Forza 2 were reused for Forza 3 and only one real new track (those who take the most time) was added, Le Mans. Barcelona was already planned for Forza 2...
 
LittleJohnny said:
One game had 2 years of development and the other had like 6 years... What was your point again?

I don't think you can see either game separate from the start of the series. One of them started longer ago, the other releases games more frequently, though I think you could count Prologue releases as sort of intermediate releases (which doesn't change anything)
 

Mastperf

Member
Stallion Free said:
:lol

Holy shit, Metal poking fun at GT5??
No, he's poking fun of the ever increasing development cycle of GT5. Considering the game isn't actually done yet it could approach 8 years when all is said and done.
 

LCfiner

Member
honestly, the main thing I'm looking forward to in Forza 4 is their implementation of the Top Gear license. I don't want the test track to be limited to frustrating overtake challenges or basic license tests as we have in GT5.

I want my official reasonably priced cars in the game and I want to compare my track time to Cameron Diaz! :p
 
Mastperf said:
No, he's poking fun of the ever increasing development cycle of GT5. Considering the game isn't actually done yet it could approach 8 years when all is said and done.

The good thing is, by the time GT6 comes out, the development time for that game will have to be like 1 or 2 months.
 

Shurs

Member
LCfiner said:
honestly, the main thing I'm looking forward to in Forza 4 is their implementation of the Top Gear license. I don't want the test track to be limited to frustrating overtake challenges or basic license tests as we have in GT5.

I want my official reasonably priced cars in the game and I want to compare my track time to Cameron Diaz! :p

Agreed.

GT5's use of the Top Gear Test Track is such a disappointment.
 

Arnie

Member
Shurs said:
Agreed.

GT5's use of the Top Gear Test Track is such a disappointment.
Yes this is a slight disappointment, forcing you to perform a rolling start in Arcade mode is another annoyance too.

Still love the track though.
 

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
@Yoritomo

You were talking about torque with the wheel in your earlier statement and I've noticed that in GT5. I guess it is more toned down than Forza? What affects that in cars? Do you need some "special steering wheel types" (connection to the wheel and steering wheel. fraaaaak I don't know how to say this in english) to feel the torque of the car, because only some cars in GT5 feel like they fight you when you put the pedal through the floor, and some that I think should have it, don't.
EDIT: I feel the torque with the DS pad too, so that is a plus in the new GT5 vs. old Prologue.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
nib95 said:
You realise in the majority of those tests the average frame rate was like 57fps?

Again, you don't perceive average frame rate. That isn't the way your brain works. You will perceive instantaneous frame drops, though. When the same frame is on the screen for longer than it should be, the motion gets uneven. And that is when the screen starts to tear, as well.

The frame rate drops much lower than 57fps. Hopefully they can fix it, but I have my doubts that they will unless they start dropping LOD, AA, or shadows (can't go much lower).
 

Yoritomo

Member
dofry said:
@Yoritomo

You were talking about torque with the wheel in your earlier statement and I've noticed that in GT5. I guess it is more toned down than Forza? What affects that in cars? Do you need some "special steering wheel types" (connection to the wheel and steering wheel. fraaaaak I don't know how to say this in english) to feel the torque of the car, because only some cars in GT5 feel like they fight you when you put the pedal through the floor, and some that I think should have it, don't.
EDIT: I feel the torque with the DS pad too, so that is a plus in the new GT5 vs. old Prologue.

Torque steer. It's a FWD phenomenon and happens mostly in vehicles that have unequal length half shafts. Floor it and the steering wheel will naturally pull in one direction.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
theignoramus said:
I agree, you dont even get to drive Forza's high lod models, let alone see them in replays.:lol

I don't think you get to drive GT5's high LOD models, either. Try out the roof cam and take a look at the hood of the car. It is a very low detail model. It is particularly noticeable in the Mercedes Nurburging challenge. The bumps on the hood look like trapezoids. Forza does the same thing, of course.

You just don't get close enough to the car to notice when you are driving from the above and behind view.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
chubigans said:
Has Turn 10 supported Forza with just car packs or have their been game updates/track packs as well?
Pretty sure there have been title updates. There has been track packs as well, but not a lot.
 
G Rom said:
This list of cut feature is why I eagerly anticipate the reveal of Forza 4.

The majority of the things on that list are minor and "easy" to implement (active aero, working gauges, etc..). The biggest challenge that Turn 10 will face will be changeable weather and time of day.
Now if you add other things than what's on this list (ie other than graphics improvement), IMO Turn 10 has to restore the online racing part of the game and deeply rethink the offline career. GT5 showed us what a varied career mode look like. Only problem is that GT5's career mode seems rather short, especially the great parts (Special Events).

For Forza 4, I just hope that Microsoft will lift some limitations for Turn 10. At this point, I don't see why the game couldn't have a mandatory install. Even Forza 3 was begging for that as you couldn't complete the career mode without disc 2 installed...
I can't imagine what it will be like with ±600 cars and ±25 environments if MS doesn't allow a mandatory install. :lol
Oh and I don't want of these awful 720p highly compressed photos anymore, Microsoft. Either allow USB export (won't happen) or buy some servers so that Turn 10 can allow us to make at the very least 1080p shots with minimum compression...

.
Of course, that's if they don't go full on Kinect... :-/

Edit :

To be fair, a lot of assets from Forza 2 were reused for Forza 3 and only one real new track (those who take the most time) was added, Le Mans. Barcelona was already planned for Forza 2...

P2P came back also, and it was not the same P2P as FM1. I rather miss shipyard
 

DeadGzuz

Banned
ShapeGSX said:
Again, you don't perceive average frame rate. That isn't the way your brain works. You will perceive instantaneous frame drops, though. When the same frame is on the screen for longer than it should be, the motion gets uneven. And that is when the screen starts to tear, as well.

The frame rate drops much lower than 57fps. Hopefully they can fix it, but I have my doubts that they will unless they start dropping LOD, AA, or shadows (can't go much lower).

I'm not sure about how human perceive frame rates (I doubt anyone here does), but for the math to work out to 57fps most of the time it has to be 60fps to counteract any dips which can be for more than 3fps lower than 57fps.
 

eso76

Member
G Rom said:
To be fair, a lot of assets from Forza 2 were reused for Forza 3

But they did remodel every car even if only for menus / photomode. Even those which use Fm2 models ingame had their high poly version modeled for menus and photomode.
Which basically gives T10 a pretty significant advantage at this point, since they have nearly 500 'premium' cars ready. Well, some need tweaking but geometry wise they are very very detailed, most of them are not worse than PD's (actually, i'd argue they are even 'smoother', but that might be tessellation at work)
 
ShapeGSX said:
I don't think you get to drive GT5's high LOD models, either. Try out the roof cam and take a look at the hood of the car. It is a very low detail model. It is particularly noticeable in the Mercedes Nurburging challenge. The bumps on the hood look like trapezoids. Forza does the same thing, of course.

You just don't get close enough to the car to notice when you are driving from the above and behind view.
I used a hood cam for the 458 on the same track. I'm not an artist with an eye for these things, but I saw no difference between the 458 hood in A spec and B-spec and we know the model used in B-spec is high LoD, since the broadcast camera angles get you close enough to your car to notice.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
DeadGzuz said:
I'm not sure about how human perceive frame rates (I doubt anyone here does), but for the math to work out to 57fps most of the time it has to be 60fps to counteract any dips which can be for more than 3fps lower than 57fps.

Yes, most likely it is 60fps most of the time in that one test that happened to be the best one of the bunch. I only notice frame rate drops and torn frames in the corners in London. But you can definitely notice it, despite the relatively high average.

This one doesn't seem to get near 60fps at any time, though:
Cockpit:Avg:37.483fps Min-Max:31.0-45.5fps Tear:60.500%
 

G Rom

Member
I agree eso76. I've always said that the highest LOD of the cars in Forza 3 match or come close to the Premium cars of GT5. Where PD absolutely destroy T10 is in the shaders and lighting though. That's why their focus on those two things have me excited for the graphics of Forza 4.

Xun said:
I'm wondering if they made the cars in GT5 like they did in Forza 3, which does seem "easier".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S82iksoNiEI

Not every car were done like that. Most of the car were modeled without them ever seeing the real thing. Heck, most cars were outsourced too.
PD did use laser scanning too though. We saw it in a video many many years ago...
 
G Rom said:
Where PD absolutely destroy T10 is in the shaders and lighting though. That's why their focus on those two things have me excited for the graphics of Forza 4.


Do you happen to know where T10 said this? I hope it's true (for the photos alone).
 

ShapeGSX

Member
theignoramus said:
I used a hood cam for the 458 on the same track. I'm not an artist with an eye for these things, but I saw no difference between the 458 hood in A spec and B-spec and we know the model used in B-spec is high LoD, since the broadcast camera angles get you close enough to your car to notice.

Try out the first Mercedes special event and use the roof cam. With that car, it is obvious that they use a low LOD model. It might be because the hood reflections are expensive for them (even at 1/2 the frame rate and low resolution). I'll snap a picture of it tonight.

Actually, I wonder if the low res reflections are the reason they use a roof cam instead of a hood cam. The reflections will be smaller because you are farther away.

I wish there was a hood cam. The roof cam makes the physics feel weird because the camera pitches way more than when it is lower on the car.
 

RotBot

Member
From a GTPlanet thread. Underside texture from a die-cast model complete with AutoArt logo and philips head screws. I'm guessing this is a standard car?

EifelCircuit.jpg
 
Yoritomo said:
You were tricked into thinking you were buying a 60 fps racing game with GT5.

45 FPS with tearing baby it's the only way to race.

"OMG they swap to lower LOD models LIESSSS".

Well hell if GT5 would manage lod better perhaps it could actually hit 60 fps with more than 1 car on the screen.

Go to options and change the setting to Flicker Reduction, bam 60fps. No lies here.
 

iam220

Member
Yoritomo said:
GT5 seems to have the brake balance wrong on almost every car.

Yes! From what I've been hearing all cars have 50/50 brake balance. Making driving with ABS-off so damn frustrating. The fact that you can't adjust your brake linearity doesn't help either. This is like the first thing that they should fix and yet I don't think they've even acknowledged it. Excellent post btw.
 
LittleJohnny said:
One game had 2 years of development and the other had like 6 years... What was your point again?
One was built on a game engine that's been refined from 2 other games while one is from scratch.

What's your point again?

Quit your fanboy shit. It's stinking up the thread.
 

G Rom

Member
ShapeGSX said:
Try out the first Mercedes special event and use the roof cam. With that car, it is obvious that they use a low LOD model. It might be because the hood reflections are expensive for them (even at 1/2 the frame rate and low resolution). I'll snap a picture of it tonight.

Actually, I wonder if the low res reflections are the reason they use a roof cam instead of a hood cam. The reflections will be smaller because you are farther away.

I wish there was a hood cam. The roof cam makes the physics feel weird because the camera pitches way more than when it is lower on the car.

The hood/roof reflections are terrible in GT5, that's mainly why I never use this cam.
I wonder why they didn't use the trick from PGR4 that everyone is now using to achieve near perfect reflections in hood/roof and cockpit cams... :-/
Maybe a technical expert from NeoGAF could explain if there was something making this trick impossible to use in GT5 ?
 
I gotta say, the tearing does hurt the eyes a bit. Everything's so bright and sharp with 1080p that it sticks out when the car in front of you suddenly slices in half.
 
eso76 said:
But they did remodel every car even if only for menus / photomode. Even those which use Fm2 models ingame had their high poly version modeled for menus and photomode.
Which basically gives T10 a pretty significant advantage at this point, since they have nearly 500 'premium' cars ready. Well, some need tweaking but geometry wise they are very very detailed, most of them are not worse than PD's (actually, i'd argue they are even 'smoother', but that might be tessellation at work)

Most cars maybe.

There are some slight differences showing they did refine the models, but the level of detail in both games are very similar.

2093wp3.jpg
 
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