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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

LabouredSubterfuge

LabouredSubterfuge

Member
MarshMellow96 said:
I've only played Forza 3 and I think that's better than Gran Turismo 5. Do I have a place in this thread?
Click to expand...

Pick up your firearm at the desk and take a seat just over there past the line of dead bodies in the middle..
 
N

NullPointer

Member
As neither game allows you to race a Ford Focus versus a Corvette through a shopping mall, both games fail miserably.

I think we can at least all agree to this.
 
I

Iknos

Junior Member
Yoritomo said:
Long post incoming. I've spent extensive time with both games. 150+ hours racing in Forza (maybe more I haven't checked my time lately) and I've got every gold license and every challenge in GT5 golded that's available for a level 20 driver. Both using the same wheel, a Fanatec PWTS with clubsports.

My impressions.

Both are great games with a very similar focus. I play lots of racing sims since it's the only genre that I'm good at. I just renewed my iRacing sub for another year. Prior to Formula 1 races I run the track the race will be on in rFactor with the FSONE 2009 mod. I run the tracks for 3-4 hours to get a good feel for what I'll be watching any given sunday. I've played most every sim out there. Ferrari Virtual Academy, RBR with the RSRBR (rallyesim) mod, NetKar Pro, Simbin games, NFS shift heavily modded. Hell I even play and love recent codemasters games although they're not really sims at all. It''s been years since doing so but I also used to have an old 240sx that I would run at a local club's track and down in College Station on a regular basis. I've since sold that car and am concentrating on my family and saving up for a bigger house, anyway, in a few years I'll pick up another FR car and go back to doing track days at the local track.

Anyone arguing that one game is SO MUCH BETTER than the other is a moron. They're both very similar games with similar design goals. Each game does certain things better.

GT5 has better handling with the wheel and primarily because Forza has an active steering assist that you cannot turn off. This is really frustrating because Forza does so many things better with the wheel. I can tell via FFB when the rear is stepping out or I can feel a FWD car has torque steer. I can't feel either of these things in GT5. I'll explain why even in the technical sense if Forza actually has better FFB why I just can't give it the nod over GT5 at the end of the post.

The vehicles in Forza feel flat, and there's something wrong with the suspension modeling, this feeling of flatness is exacerbated by replay cameras that are LOCKED on the car so you get less of an impression of visual body roll during replays. GT5 handles the feel of the suspension and weight transfer better.

Both games have issues. Incorrect specs, modeling, and weird things with some of Forza's cars, especially some of the DLC vehicles. GT5 seems to have the brake balance wrong on almost every car. The rear wheels should not lock up before the front wheels on almost any modern vehicle but that seems to be the case in GT5. Tire grip seems to go from unrealistic levels at the bottom end to a happy area around comfort soft and some of the sport tires to unrealistic levels at the top. The racing tires don't have the correct amount of falloff in the tire force curve. You can't have universal vehicle settings like turning Traction Control off as a preference for all your cars. GT5 comes up lacking if you're using an H-Gate shifter as well. They introduced some kludges to prevent power shifting so Clutch users don't have a speed advantage. Stupid decision.

Revisiting the Forza steering assist issue: On the full 900 degree setting I only have to counter steer about 60 degree for the car in game to go into FULL OPPOSITE LOCK. It's why the game feels so easy with a wheel. It also removes a lot of the tension since it sort of corrects slides for you. For instance in GT5 on the full nurburgring AMG intermediate challenge I dipped the rear wheels into the grass coming out of a corner. This sent the rear wheels wide and I had to counter steer, and I had to work for it. As in I hit full opposite lock at 450 degrees feathered the throttle and unwound the steering wheel so I didn't go into a tank slapper. My heart was pounding and I could hear blood rushing to my brain. I can't really get that feeling with forza because it holds my hand too much.

I think GT5 has higher highs and much lower lows than Forza 3. Forza 3 is a more consistent experience, and really excels at tuning, community features, controller interpolation, tire falloff and modeling for the entire range of tires, sound, some graphical aspects, and collision between vehicles (rubbing is racing). GT5 excels at vehicle dynamics, huge variety in the single player campaign, presentation (not counting some weird UI decisions), overall art direction, and the variety of experiences you can have(yeah I mentioned this twice, it's the best part of the game).
Click to expand...

Completely agree with everything said here.

Didn't read most of this thread yet but am glad to have found this gem.

It looks like people were focused on X vs Y features that they didn't realize that many features that both games share...Forza does better. At the same time there are many great features in GT that you will hope to establish as the next standard in sim games. I'm talking beyond console sims nevermind Forza.

I far prefer the lack of a perpetual steering assist and until T10 patches a fix I would prefer GT driving to Forza driving despite what Forza may do better.

Some aspects of Forza's physics are clearly better. Tire modeling and collision physics are still obviously better. Something about the weight transfer under heavy braking seems more realistic...it seems like the weight transfer when you pitch is more realistic in Forza but weight transfer when you roll is better in GT5 as crazy as that sounds. When you watch a GT5 replay you can see how much more natural the cars sway and it is clearly superior to Forza in that regard.

Forza's physics strengths matters less and less when an assist guides you through the game and you never feel the rush of saving yourself from spinning out as you do in GT5. Meaning in Forza you push your car more to its limits because in most cases it is easy to save. Even if you are too hot on the throttle when exiting a corner you can save it rather easily in Forza.

So for myself while it could feel less accurate in some respects I would prefer driving in GT because you are cautious about pushing the car too far and would rather play things safe. And when you do push your car...it is more of a white knuckle experience because of the danger.

Keep in mind that part of the feeling is through the handling of the wheel. In many respects the FFB is better in Forza as you have a good feeling of your tires throughout the entire experience. There is certainly one area where GT feels better is the smoother feel of where you lose grip rather than an immediate drop off in feedback.

There are many things that GT5 does very well and perhaps I'm focusing on the negatives too much because I'm looking at things on a comparitive basis.

Still feeling that at the end of the day both games have their major physics issues that they still can't be compared to PC sims despite these console titles making huge strides lately.

The silver lining is the hope that PD does patch the game further which it sounds like is the plan from the beginning and that Forza 4 could come out soon. The only issue is whether both makers realize and accept their flaws so that they can fix them.

At this point GT5 looks to be a jack of all trades and master of none. Forza is jack of not as much trades and master of some. Despite this I feel that Forza's perpetual driving assist breaks the main experience of driving and despite its flaws would stick with GT all the while wishing it was more like Forza at nearly every turn and straight.

Working on the comparison video already. We have a small team working on this. There are subjective stuff that we will leave for months down the road but there are easy comparisons to make at this point like graphics and sounds. We were also thinking of giving PD the benefit of releasing 1 or 2 patches before covering things like network play and wheel support.
 
S

SmokyDave

Member
NullPointer said:
As neither game allows you to race a Ford Focus versus a Corvette through a shopping mall, both games fail miserably.

I think we can at least all agree to this.
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:lol In this thread? Nope.

It was a Ford Fiesta, not a Focus.
 
S

soundscream

Member
Shaneus said:
Depends... for the latter, do most of the enemies look like characters from Space Invaders except for one or two that look like they're from Crysis? Can you actually hurt any of the characters in the latter game or just bump into them? :lol
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sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiittt.jpg


Sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiittt :lol
 
W

watership

Member
Shaneus said:
Depends... for the latter, do most of the enemies look like characters from Space Invaders except for one or two that look like they're from Crysis? Can you actually hurt any of the characters in the latter game or just bump into them? :lol
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I can see my breath!
 
A

Amon37

Member
I love the fact the forza rewards you with cars you actually want to drive, you don't have to grind races for money if you don't have to. I just beat 2 races in the expert series in GT5 and was rewarded with 2 fucking
350z's
really I mean wtf. and don't get me started on the used car revolving bullshit.
 
R

rvy

Banned
Iknos said:
Completely agree with everything said here.

Didn't read most of this thread yet but am glad to have found this gem.

It looks like people were focused on X vs Y features that they didn't realize that many features that both games share...Forza does better. At the same time there are many great features in GT that you will hope to establish as the next standard in sim games. I'm talking beyond console sims nevermind Forza.

I far prefer the lack of a perpetual steering assist and until T10 patches a fix I would prefer GT driving to Forza driving despite what Forza may do better.

Some aspects of Forza's physics are clearly better. Tire modeling and collision physics are still obviously better. Something about the weight transfer under heavy braking seems more realistic...it seems like the weight transfer when you pitch is more realistic in Forza but weight transfer when you roll is better in GT5 as crazy as that sounds. When you watch a GT5 replay you can see how much more natural the cars sway and it is clearly superior to Forza in that regard.

Forza's physics strengths matters less and less when an assist guides you through the game and you never feel the rush of saving yourself from spinning out as you do in GT5. Meaning in Forza you push your car more to its limits because in most cases it is easy to save. Even if you are too hot on the throttle when exiting a corner you can save it rather easily in Forza.

So for myself while it could feel less accurate in some respects I would prefer driving in GT because you are cautious about pushing the car too far and would rather play things safe. And when you do push your car...it is more of a white knuckle experience because of the danger.

Keep in mind that part of the feeling is through the handling of the wheel. In many respects the FFB is better in Forza as you have a good feeling of your tires throughout the entire experience. There is certainly one area where GT feels better is the smoother feel of where you lose grip rather than an immediate drop off in feedback.

There are many things that GT5 does very well and perhaps I'm focusing on the negatives too much because I'm looking at things on a comparitive basis.

Still feeling that at the end of the day both games have their major physics issues that they still can't be compared to PC sims despite these console titles making huge strides lately.

The silver lining is the hope that PD does patch the game further which it sounds like is the plan from the beginning and that Forza 4 could come out soon. The only issue is whether both makers realize and accept their flaws so that they can fix them.

At this point GT5 looks to be a jack of all trades and master of none. Forza is jack of not as much trades and master of some. Despite this I feel that Forza's perpetual driving assist breaks the main experience of driving and despite its flaws would stick with GT all the while wishing it was more like Forza at nearly every turn and straight.

Working on the comparison video already. We have a small team working on this. There are subjective stuff that we will leave for months down the road but there are easy comparisons to make at this point like graphics and sounds. We were also thinking of giving PD the benefit of releasing 1 or 2 patches before covering things like network play and wheel support.
Click to expand...

clap.gif
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
I like Forza enough but GT5 is the first game I've played with a wheel and until Microsoft or Turn 10 supports the Logitech wheels, I will probably not be buying the next Forza.
 
Ploid 3.0

Ploid 3.0

Member
Shaneus said:
Eagerly awaiting a patch that eliminates the need for more patches. Make it so, PD!
Click to expand...

Hope they continue adding stuff, even if the internets deem it perfect. Add new camera lenses, new rims, race mods, race events, etc. If people can play the game online with other people they should be able to download a update. The 100mb seems to be the file they update, so at least it's not bigger.
 
S

SmokyDave

Member
Shaneus said:
Eagerly awaiting a patch that eliminates the need for more patches. Make it so, PD!
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Would you really be happier if they stopped patching it tomorrow?

The ongoing support of GT5 is another reason that I love the game. Who knows what delights await us in future patches?
 
P

Pride

Member
With NPD this week I think it would be fun to do a little over/under betting...

Let's set the bar at 500k

Who thinks GTV will be over/under the bar (US Only, Based on NPD results)?
 
S

Shaneus

Member
SmokyDave said:
Would you really be happier if they stopped patching it tomorrow?

The ongoing support of GT5 is another reason that I love the game. Who knows what delights await us in future patches?
Click to expand...
If it was in a state where it didn't need to be patched, yes. Because then patches would become "updates" or "addons". But simple things like mechanical damage in a driving simulator which had been advertised as a feature should be included when the game is shipped not afterwards.

Have I mentioned how much I hate it when games are released in an obviously unfinished state on the basis it'll get fixed later? Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about GT5.
 
S

SmokyDave

Member
Shaneus said:
If it was in a state where it didn't need to be patched, yes. Because then patches would become "updates" or "addons". But simple things like mechanical damage in a driving simulator which had been advertised as a feature should be included when the game is shipped not afterwards.

Have I mentioned how much I hate it when games are released in an obviously unfinished state on the basis it'll get fixed later? Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about GT5.
Click to expand...
The thing is, it has been released in an unfinished state. That fact isn't going to change. Given that, I think it's better that they patch it into some semblance of the intended end product, as well as expanding on what is already there. They could've quite easily said "It's done, love it or fuck off". There is no obligation there to patch the game, regardless of whether you feel it is finished or not.

I understand why you'd feel aggrieved that the game wasn't 100% day one. Personally, I'm happy that they're unhappy with the shipped product and that they seem dedicated to improving it.
 
N

nib95

Banned
Pride said:
With NPD this week I think it would be fun to do a little over/under betting...

Let's set the bar at 500k

Who thinks GTV will be over/under the bar (US Only, Based on NPD results)?
Click to expand...

Probably around 670k imo.

Anyway, Iknos I actually agree with your post above. I hardly ever agree with your posts lol.


On a side note, you guys have GOT to do the Arcade race involving the Nurburgring night/rain race. Nurburgring, at night, in the blistering rain, rain sputter to stop, slowly turning to foggy mist, then dawn, with the sun glimpsing through the cloudy skies beaming down, followed a few minutes later by clear sunny skies with a newly dried track, all in one lap. All with GT5's phenomenal driving physics....It's quite literally, breathtaking.

I did it all in the glorious Ferrari F40 as well. So fun...
 
C

CozMick

Banned
Shaneus said:
Have I mentioned how much I hate it when games are released in an obviously unfinished state on the basis it'll get fixed later? Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about GT5.
Click to expand...

Anyone that dislikes post launch support or drip feeding features just simply has a shit connection, the game may not have been 100% on disc, but why worry about that if you have the internet?

Rather that than have the game on 2 discs!!!!!

The mechanical damage that was added online is just staggeringly good.

Also would anyone like a little bet on whether GT5 will pass 500k in Europe only?

Whoops.........already done that, and doubled it :lol
 
S

Shaneus

Member
SmokyDave said:
The thing is, it has been released in an unfinished state. That fact isn't going to change. Given that, I think it's better that they patch it into some semblance of the intended end product, as well as expanding on what is already there. They could've quite easily said "It's done, love it or fuck off". There is no obligation there to patch the game, regardless of whether you feel it is finished or not.

I understand why you'd feel aggrieved that the game wasn't 100% day one. Personally, I'm happy that they're unhappy with the shipped product and that they seem dedicated to improving it.
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Alright then. I'll play it, but I'm not going to enjoy it! Even if it's just to spite you ;)

I just hope they learn some kind of lesson with this and not think that all is okay by releasing a game that requires patches, just to do the same to GT6. They'd better nail that shit.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
Shaneus said:
Alright then. I'll play it, but I'm not going to enjoy it! Even if it's just to spite you ;)

I just hope they learn some kind of lesson with this and not think that all is okay by releasing a game that requires patches, just to do the same to GT6. They'd better nail that shit.
Click to expand...
No need to wait for GT6 for your racing game needs. FM4 will take care of you, don't worry.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
saladine1 said:
No need to wait for GT6 for your racing game needs. FM4 will take care of you, don't worry.
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Doesn't need to tide me over, just keep me going. I already have my plan:
FM3/GT5 (will alternate, depending on mood) -> FM4 -> (Bizarre-helmed) PGR5.

After that, nothing else matters.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
Shaneus said:
Doesn't need to tide me over, just keep me going. I already have my plan:
FM3/GT5 (will alternate, depending on mood) -> FM4 -> (Bizarre-helmed) PGR5.

After that, nothing else matters.
Click to expand...
Here's my 'racer' plan:
FM3/GT5/SHIFT/F1 '10/GT Legends -> SHIFT 2/TDU2 -> DIRT 3 -> FM4...................->->->->PGR5.
 
A

antiquegamer

Member
SmokyDave said:
The thing is, it has been released in an unfinished state. That fact isn't going to change. Given that, I think it's better that they patch it into some semblance of the intended end product, as well as expanding on what is already there. They could've quite easily said "It's done, love it or fuck off". There is no obligation there to patch the game, regardless of whether you feel it is finished or not.

I understand why you'd feel aggrieved that the game wasn't 100% day one. Personally, I'm happy that they're unhappy with the shipped product and that they seem dedicated to improving it.
Click to expand...

I think it's kinda sad after all the delay and the game still need patch on day one and now a week later another patch.

The game is fun but man that UI just pissing me off to no end especially when looking for a car to race. So if there's no car in the used (or new) section that match race requiremnt (the classic stuff) do I just have to wait and hope for randomness to kick in and the car I need for the race come up? wtf is that. I am want to finish one race tier and move to the next one but I can't do it because I can't find old Japanese car to buy.
 
N

nib95

Banned
Shaneus said:
Doesn't need to tide me over, just keep me going. I already have my plan:
FM3/GT5 (will alternate, depending on mood) -> FM4 -> (Bizarre-helmed) PGR5.

After that, nothing else matters.
Click to expand...

Bizarre helmed PGR5? Nah...not even in the same league as GT or Forza, or even Shift for that matter. Although I woulnd't exactly say no to a new title. Just never really liked PGR's driving model or the kudo's system.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
CozMick said:
GT5......................GT6: Prologue...........................GT6
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GT5......................GT6: Prologue...........................GT6
2010......................2014........................................2017
 
A

adelante

Member
nib95 said:
Bizarre helmed PGR5? Nah...not even in the same league as GT or Forza, or even Shift for that matter. Although I woulnd't exactly say no to a new title. Just never really liked PGR's driving model or the kudo's system.
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You must've missed that time when we kept talking about PGR4 here (i.e. who cares if its not in the same league, we like what the series offer that other racing games don't...)
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
More racing games need to take a look at the post race menu in Split Second. Different kind of game, sure, but the idea of presenting the player with a quick selection menu which allows you to easily select the next race in a list would be much appreciated. It's much faster and avoids any loading associated with returning to the main menu.

Honestly, this would be most appropriate in a new PGR game as that series has always struggled with load times.
 
A

adelante

Member
dark10x said:
Honestly, this would be most appropriate in a new PGR game as that series has always struggled with load times.
Click to expand...
I imagined it had something to do with loading the entire city then sectioning off part of it for the race, although I can see how having a quick selection menu for subsequent races in the same city would alleviate that problem a bit
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
With regards to suggestions and ideas, why don't more devs post some type of official 'suggestion' thread more often?
And not like a week before the game is due when it's pretty much irrelevant but more like months instead. Let us know that you are at least taking things onboard. Perhaps give us some wip caps and put forth some questions to the community?
Obviously, it's not our creation and I understand that devs have a vision of their own, but it wouldn't hurt either way to gauge some opinions on certain things.
 
Ploid 3.0

Ploid 3.0

Member
People will sue claiming the dev stole their idea. It would have to be in a protected area, "All comments on this forum are property of EA".
 
G

Graphics Horse

Member
h_echizenya: Using toy cars as reference isn't an unusual thing anyways. Though it would be hilarious if you left it there on purpose (referring to some cars' underside being modeled from toy cars. This issue caused an explosion of complaints in Japan)

Kaz: It's hilarious, but but they'll be gone in the next update. It's rather embarrassing.
Click to expand...

Who could have guessed? The 'easter egg' will be gone before Easter.
 
S

SmokyDave

Member
Graphics Horse said:
Things being blown out of proportion on message boards, thank goodness that only happens in Japan!
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I don't care which message board you frequent or which country you live in. If you actively complain about the modelling on the underside of a car, in a game, you're a fucking loser. I knew we batted it around in this very thread but aside from a few giggles, I didn't get the impression that anyone was outraged enough to actually complain about it.

Maybe something is lost in translation and 'complaint' just means 'spewed shit on a message board'. I'm probably reading too much into the word 'complaint'. I imagined some irate dude, furrowed brow and tongue hanging out of his mouth, furiously scrawling down a huge diatribe to mail to Polyphony along with a turd in a box.
 
B

brotkasten

Member
Shaneus said:
If it was in a state where it didn't need to be patched, yes. Because then patches would become "updates" or "addons". But simple things like mechanical damage in a driving simulator which had been advertised as a feature should be included when the game is shipped not afterwards.

Have I mentioned how much I hate it when games are released in an obviously unfinished state on the basis it'll get fixed later? Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about GT5.
Click to expand...
To be honest, GT5 feels like a public beta for an MMO. Except it's post-launch and you already paid the 60 bucks. Things are missing, won't be there and are only halfway included. It's definitely not what I expected from PD.

Graphics Horse said:
Things being blown out of proportion on message boards, thank goodness that only happens in Japan!
Click to expand...
:lol
 
S

ShapeGSX

Member
dark10x said:
More racing games need to take a look at the post race menu in Split Second. Different kind of game, sure, but the idea of presenting the player with a quick selection menu which allows you to easily select the next race in a list would be much appreciated. It's much faster and avoids any loading associated with returning to the main menu.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what Forza 3 does with its 3 choices when you finish a career race?
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
I guess I'm the only one in this thread that would rather play the game this year and have patch updates instead of waiting even longer for the game to come out...
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
Graphics Horse said:
Who could have guessed? The 'easter egg' will be gone before Easter.
Click to expand...
hahaha

It was obvious to everyone but the most delusional fanboys. If I'd care more, I'd collect some posts from a couple pages back.
 
X

Xun

Member
Haunted said:
hahaha

It was obvious to everyone but the most delusional fanboys. If I'd care more, I'd collect some posts from a couple pages back.
Click to expand...
Pretty much.

Ah well, shit happens.
 
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