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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Forsete said:
Trolls call this robot AI? What a joke.

I could tell from just a few laps how advanced the AI has gotten in GT. But you know, you'll actually have to play the game to see that. :lol
Click to expand...
I think most of the harshest critics are people who probably don't have the game.
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
Dreams-Visions said:
I think most of the harshest critics are people who probably don't have the game.
Click to expand...

I've never had a pit maneuver used against me in Forza. The GT AI has done this multiple times. It just tries to power right through you. It's also worse at driving. When in a similar vehicle the AI in GT is much much slower than Forza on the highest level. Not that the Forza AI is super difficult to run down but in the R1 cars it'll give you a run for your money.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Yoritomo said:
I've never had a pit maneuver used against me in Forza. The GT AI has done this multiple times. It just tries to power right through you. It's also worse at driving. When in a similar vehicle the AI in GT is much much slower than Forza on the highest level. Not that the Forza AI is super difficult to run down but in the R1 cars it'll give you a run for your money.
Click to expand...
"most"

I think *most* of the harshest critics. That does not mean "all". I'm sure there are some very valid people here making some very valid complaints. I do not think all critics are honest critics. I think the same of the Forza haters, as I highly doubt all of them have played Forza 3 in any depth, relying yet again on still images and poor quality youtube videos to formulate all of their opinions.
 
F

Firewire

Banned
Apex said:
I am sure most of the criticized GT5 bumps would end with a crash in RL, people like to drive without caring too much about AI cars, not respecting its lines, bumping, braking hard in front of them, overtaking all over the place, etc and waiting for a magical force field that protect the car to being touch, like an arcade. Also Yamauchi said the IA would remember you and would take revenge, have different personalities, etc...

This vid shows very well how dynamic can be the AI in a race:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA5jIuoP4bs
Click to expand...

In one race I played yesterday I think I experienced this. I bumped an AI driver off at a corner in Grand Valley by mistake. The next lap I suddenly realized he was riding on my back bumper again, being somewhat aggressive. He gave me the same love tap I gave him in the exact same corner to spin me out and off the track, he got his revenge I guess.
 
G

Gek54

Junior Member
LittleJohnny said:
LOL, perfect expressions! :lol


I can't wait for Forza 4, that's going to be the real comparison to GT5 ;-)
Click to expand...

I would be right there with you if Forza 3 had not be such a horrible disappointment in that it feels like a huge departure from the direction I thought they would be taking the series.

I ditched GT4 for FM1, even though it was 30fps and didnt even have a TFF wheel, its physics, sound and online play were too good. FM2 came around with 60fps and a TFF wheel. YES! but it turned out to be an overpriced shitty quality 270 degree wheel and no linear steering in the game. Ok whatever, ill give it a pass again since this is at least showing progress.

Then comes Forza 3 and its going to support a 900 degree wheel. Yes!!! I already have a G25 that I love but I will be happy to drop the $400+ if it will finally let me experience my favorite racing game with the ultimate control of 1:1 true linear steering....at least I hope, no one will confirm linear steering, but its 900 degrees, we have had 900 degree linear steering since 2005 on the old PS2. Now this is a whole 4+ years and a generation later, there is no way they could fuck this up now. Right?

Wrong, even with all the deadzones zeroed out and all driving aids off, 900 degree mode introduces a deadzone feeling and worst off all the game still steers for you. Switch back to 270 degree mode and the deadzone feel goes away but I am still not truly steering the car. And yes I did the whole dashboard initialization, there is no solution and there has been no patch or any acknowledgment of the problem by Turn10. So now I have a new $400 wheel that feels great on PC/PS3 but feels worse than the shitty MS wheel in Forza 3. Why did they even bother supporting a 900 degree wheel? Does Turn10 just not get it?

So then I thought back to all of the Turn10 interviews and presentations where they went on and on about how much they are trying to make the game accessible to grandparents and their grandchildren. Well I guess I should have seen it coming. Now I no longer get the feeling they are trying make a driving sim, rather just a highly accessible GT genre cash in.

That or they are just that daft at driving that they actually enjoy having that steering aid. Either way the whole situation is just offensive.

Now I didn't have much hope for GT5 either, I went in expecting the half-assed driving model of Prologue and its Jesus tire physics. I was shocked to find that PD actually delivered exactly the sensation of driving and ultimate car control that I was expecting to find in Forza 3.

Id love to see Turn10 step up and deliver better driving but I have no confidence that they have what it takes to do so.
 
S

Stripper13

Member
Jonsoncao said:
I love how GT fans celebrating over that AI comparison debunked video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IiKt9gBiOo
Click to expand...

That was more or less my experience with GT5's AI.

Not necessarily as severe - but just constant rubbing and hitting as if I wasn't even there. It was like I was a race driver who had to finish the race while navigating past a series of reasonably fast shipping containers. If I got in the way, I was getting hit/spun - and if I managed to get a nice inside late-brake cornering opportunity you can bet your ass I was getting a nudge for pulling a perfectly legal and common racing move.

To be fair, it wasn't always terrible - and give or take a few events/challenges it was quite easy to pull ahead of the bulk of the pack and have a decent battle for 1st/2nd with competent AI. The problem is when you are racing with the rest of the pack, it becomes fucking awful - and definitely worse than anything I experienced in Forza 3.

Regardless, I hardly think it's worth celebrating the fact that at it's best GT5 AI = Forza 3's AI given their development time and resources. Particularly when quite often, GT5's AI shits the bed and becomes laughable.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
Gek54 said:
Wrong, even with all the deadzones zeroed out and all driving aids off, 900 degree mode introduces a deadzone feeling and worst off all the game still steers for you. Switch back to 270 degree mode and the deadzone feel goes away but I am still not truly steering the car. And yes I did the whole dashboard initialization, there is no solution and there has been no patch or any acknowledgment of the problem by Turn10. So now I have a new $400 wheel that feels great on PC/PS3 but feels worse than the shitty MS wheel in Forza 3. Why did they even bother supporting a 900 degree wheel? Does Turn10 just not get it?
Click to expand...


Wait, is this what you were experiencing ?...because there definitely is something wrong with your set then.
I'm sure others can back this up, but from the way you describe it, it sounds like your xbox360/fm3 was not detecting 900° properly.
Now that you made me think of it, this is what was happening with me at first.
I remember being extremely disappointed; the game felt completely wrong in 900°...basically the game was still "thinking in 270°" which just made the wheel 4x less responsive since turning the wheel 450° full lock in either direction would still translate in a 135° turn in the game. With assists on top of that, because a 270° steering system will obviously need heavy assists for those instances where you need to steer 'more'.

I resorted to setting the Fanatec to 540°, which felt better but i was still pretty mad at T10 and Fanatec.
I explained my problem to a few guys on Fanatec forums and i was told to keep trying, because the game obviously didn't switch to 900° control system; turning the wheel on or off, launching the game with the wheel, switching the console on and off using the wheel etc. until it worked and you could immediately tell by the hands in cockpit view finally moving exactly like they should.

When the game properly detects a Fanatec set to 900° steering is indeed 1:1 linear. Yes, there's still some steering aid you can't turn off, but it only kicks in to help countersteering while drifting; rather dumb, but still very different from what you describe and doesn't really happen often, unless you drift all the time.

Yes, i really believe you've been playing the game in '270° mode' with a 900° wheel
 
V

Vicetrailia

Member
So what SIM game out there has this perfect AI system where the cars never do what happens in any bad AI Forza/GT vid. What race game is there where the cars never hit you from the back?
 
B

belvedere

Junior Butler
ssolitare said:
So what SIM game out there has this perfect AI system where the cars never do what happens in any bad AI Forza/GT vid. What race game is there where the cars never hit you from the back?
Click to expand...

When your franchise of choice looks worse, plays worse, isn't taken seriously by the automotive industry and feels more like an adolescent clone of a superior experience, you regurgitate whatever bullshit you can.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
ssolitare said:
So what SIM game out there has this perfect AI system where the cars never do what happens in any bad AI Forza/GT vid.
Click to expand...

none, probably.
Like i said earlier, all AI comparisons vids released so far are just stupid. No one should be interested in seeing what happens when you deliberately try to exploit IA driving backwards or stopping sideways in the middle of the road. I am sure most sims would end up failing those tests, simply because there's no reason for the AI to be prepared to deal with such situations.

It's more or less like judging a game's graphics after you've glitched the camera below the floor, or in any other situation which is VERY unlikely to present during normal gameplay.
 
Forsete

Forsete

Member
eso76 said:
none, probably.
Like i said earlier, all AI comparisons vids released so far are just stupid. No one should be interested in seeing what happens when you deliberately try to exploit IA driving backwards or stopping sideways in the middle of the road. I am sure most sims would end up failing those tests, simply because there's no reason for the AI to be prepared to deal with such situations.

It's more or less like judging a game's graphics after you've glitched the camera below the floor, or in any other situation which is VERY unlikely to present during normal gameplay.
Click to expand...

Truth.. Like the debunking video demonstrated, you can exploit the AI in both games, but under normal conditions it is fine. There is a whole series of videos devoted to retarded AI videos on both games. Ugh.
 
G

Gek54

Junior Member
eso76 said:
Wait, is this what you were experiencing ?...because there definitely is something wrong with your set then.
I'm sure others can back this up, but from the way you describe it, it sounds like your xbox360/fm3 was not detecting 900° properly.
Now that you made me think of it, this is what was happening with me at first.
I remember being extremely disappointed; the game felt completely wrong in 900°...basically the game was still "thinking in 270°" which just made the wheel 4x less responsive since turning the wheel 450° full lock in either direction would still translate in a 135° turn in the game. With assists on top of that, because a 270° steering system will obviously need heavy assists for those instances where you need to steer 'more'.

I resorted to setting the Fanatec to 540°, which felt better but i was still pretty mad at T10 and Fanatec.
I explained my problem to a few guys on Fanatec forums and i was told to keep trying, because the game obviously didn't switch to 900° control system; turning the wheel on or off, launching the game with the wheel, switching the console on and off using the wheel etc. until it worked and you could immediately tell by the hands in cockpit view finally moving exactly like they should.

When the game properly detects a Fanatec set to 900° steering is indeed 1:1 linear. Yes, there's still some steering aid you can't turn off, but it only kicks in to help countersteering while drifting; rather dumb, but still very different from what you describe and doesn't really happen often, unless you drift all the time.

Yes, i really believe you've been playing the game in '270° mode' with a 900° wheel
Click to expand...


Yeah I get in 900 degree mode, its the force feedback that has a bad deadzone is what I meant. One of the worst feeling force feedback driving games in 900 degree mode that I have felt. Its way too numb in the center. That and the auto steering are infuriating.
 
S

See You Next Wednesday

Banned
eso76 said:
none, probably.
Like i said earlier, all AI comparisons vids released so far are just stupid. No one should be interested in seeing what happens when you deliberately try to exploit IA driving backwards or stopping sideways in the middle of the road. I am sure most sims would end up failing those tests, simply because there's no reason for the AI to be prepared to deal with such situations.
Click to expand...

Nope, Try driving backwards & hitting cars head on in Forza 3, they WILL avoid you at all cost.
There are some exploits & flaws in the A.I., but it's never that bad in Forza 3. That video of the A.I. from GT5 is straight out of GT1!
 
D

DeadGzuz

Banned
Dreams-Visions said:
"most"

I think *most* of the harshest critics. That does not mean "all". I'm sure there are some very valid people here making some very valid complaints. I do not think all critics are honest critics. I think the same of the Forza haters, as I highly doubt all of them have played Forza 3 in any depth, relying yet again on still images and poor quality youtube videos to formulate all of their opinions.
Click to expand...


:lol

Let me translate.

"The guys on my side have valid complaints, the other side is lying."

You must have hundreds of post in the thread, your agenda was clear long ago.
 
G

Gek54

Junior Member
RSTEIN said:
Well, with Forza 4 just announced for 2011 we get to do this all over again :lol
Click to expand...

Magic Carpetza More



But seriously, heres hoping they can figure out how to give us direct control of the car with a 900 degree wheel.

And public custom lobbies, or did they ever allow that again? I havnt checked in forever.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
So how long until we get "But you can't compare a brand new game to one that's been out for a year!" from the GT fanboys regarding F4? :lol
 
Cuban Legend

Cuban Legend

Member
Shaneus said:
So how long until we get "But you can't compare a brand new game to one that's been out for a year!" from the GT fanboys regarding F4? :lol
Click to expand...
That is so true it should be bannable in the new thread. :lol
 
M

Metalmurphy

Member
Shaneus said:
So how long until we get "But you can't compare a brand new game to one that's been out for a year!" from the GT fanboys regarding F4? :lol
Click to expand...

What is it with you and the constant nagging of GT Fanboys?

FYI There was

GT5 Prologue (2007) - Forza 3 (2009) comparisons
GT5 (2010) - Forza 3 (2009) comparisons

And for sure there will be
GT5 (2010) - Forza 4 (2011) comparisons.

What's the difference? Why just note one side?
 
M

Metalmurphy

Member
Shaneus said:
Because we had the bitching from one-eyed F3 fanboys about comparing GT5 to Forza 3, where there's a year difference :lol
Click to expand...

And you think there wasn't any bitching about comparing GT5 Prologue to Forza 3 despite also having a 1 year difference? Start looking at both sides for once and stop labeling just one.
 
O

Ogrekiller

Member
Metalmurphy said:
What is it with you and the constant nagging of GT Fanboys?

FYI There was

GT5 Prologue (2007) - Forza 2 (2007) comparisons
GT5 (2010) - Forza 3 (2009) comparisons

And for sure there will be
GT5 (2010) - Forza 4 (2011) comparisons.

What's the difference? Why just note one side?
Click to expand...
Fixed.
 
Truespeed

Truespeed

Member
Shaneus said:
So how long until we get "But you can't compare a brand new game to one that's been out for a year!" from the GT fanboys regarding F4? :lol
Click to expand...

I'd be more concerned about the F4 on track car count then the thoughts of people that play GT5. Get your priorities in order.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Truespeed said:
I'd be more concerned about the F4 on track car count then the thoughts of people that play GT5. Get your priorities in order.
Click to expand...
Fair point... I saw some touring car-esque live-action footage in that trailer. If there's only 8 cars on track for that I'll be fairly pissed.
 
O

Ogrekiller

Member
Metalmurphy said:
Nope, you didn't really fix it. You kinda a ruined it, although I guess you could add that as well.
Click to expand...
Alright, alright.

Metalmurphy said:
What is it with you and the constant nagging of GT Fanboys?

FYI There was

GT5 Prologue (2007) - Forza 2 (2007) comparisons
GT5 Prologue (2007) - Forza 3 (2009) comparisons
GT5 (2010) - Forza 3 (2009) comparisons

And for sure there will be
GT5 (2010) - Forza 4 (2011) comparisons.
Click to expand...

Truespeed said:
I'd be more concerned about the F4 on track car count then the thoughts of people that play GT5. Get your priorities in order.
Click to expand...
I'm more concerned at how many people worked on FM4 personally. And their pay grade. And how many hours they worked.
 
Truespeed

Truespeed

Member
Ogrekiller said:
It won't sell as many copies as GT5, but it'll make back its costs, that's for sure. No worries there.
Click to expand...

Probably. It's always good to break even. It would be interesting to know whether the team has been expanded or trimmed down, though.
 
G

Gek54

Junior Member
5252675855_93553e2948_b.jpg


TheTopGearTestTrack2.jpg



and that is a Premium GT model that I just bought, shouldnt be dirty.

Edit: Real pic for some accuracy comparison


TheTopGearTestTrack3.jpg
 
L

LCfiner

Member
Truespeed said:
Probably. It's always good to break even. It would be interesting to know whether the team has been expanded or trimmed down, though.
Click to expand...

there wouldn’t be a fourth in the series if they were just breaking even.
 
L

LCfiner

Member
Ogrekiller said:
coughBIZARREcough
Click to expand...


Bingo.

And MS has been very aggressive this gen about not funding projects that under deliver (some folks here get upset at that, btw) so it should be fairly obvious that a fourth Forza means that they’re doing well for themselves.
 
C

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Gek54 said:
and that is a Premium GT model that I just bought, shouldnt be dirty.
Click to expand...
That's not GT's photo mode though, that's in game photo mode, which is different than the Forza 4 photo mode and GT's own photo mode. *mindsplode*

Well see if Forza 4 looks like that in-game. Then we'll need a new topic. :D
 
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