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[gogogow]

Honestly, GT5P (getting GT5 for christmas) looks fucking great because it is 1280x1080p. The extra resolution provides a level of fidelity that Uncharted and Killzone 2 just don't have. The difference in clarity is absolutely significant.

Then PD needs to get their priorities straight. I'll take Uncharted's "level of fidelity" with a constant framerate, no tearing, good looking shadows, good looking particles etc any day over GT5's fidelity....

 

[-viper-]

Honestly, GT5P (getting GT5 for christmas) looks fucking great because it is 1280x1080p. The extra resolution provides a level of fidelity that Uncharted and Killzone 2 just don't have. The difference in clarity is absolutely significant.

GOW3 is 720p yet has the best image quality of any console game. It looks sharp and has virtually no jaggies.

If dropping resolution to 640p makes MW2 60FPS, then just imagine what developing for 720p from the get go would do, instead of aiming for 1280x1080p.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

GOW3 is 720p yet has the best image quality of any console game. It looks sharp and has virtually no jaggies.

If dropping resolution to 640p makes MW2 60FPS, then just imagine what developing for 720p from the get go would do, instead of aiming for 1280x1080p.

The game tears just as much in 720p though.

 

[BobsRevenge]

GOW3 is 720p yet has the best image quality of any console game. It looks sharp and has virtually no jaggies.

If dropping resolution to 640p makes MW2 60FPS, then just imagine what developing for 720p from the get go would do, instead of aiming for 1280x1080p.

GoW3 has less clarity than GT5P. No question. I would also say that Wipeout HD's IQ blows GoW3 away. Maybe I just sit closer to the screen than you guys, but this stuff is pretty obvious to me. As a trade-off, I think its fine.

 

[Niks]

GT6 would be a polished PS4 game.
Remember, core GT5 was done from scratch. GT6 will be an evolution of GT5.

Kaz made the premium cars with the PS4 in mind. No doubt about that.

 

[theignoramus]

The game tears just as much in 720p though.

They could have improved performance by dropping to 2xMSAA at 720p. Not sure what the end result would be though, probably something fiercely jagged.

 

[BobsRevenge]

They could have improved performance by dropping to 2xMSAA at 720p. Not sure what the end result would be though, probably something fiercely jagged.

Jaggies at 720p is one of the ugliest things in this world.

 

[gogogow]

I'm not sure what your ND comparison means. ND's last game on the PS2 came out in October of 2005. They're well known to be a team that only works on one game at a time. So, why would anyone have expected them to get out a game near launch?
.

ND is one of the most talented studio's out there and Uncharted DF's assets aren't near as huge and or complex as that of GT due to the cars, tracks, physics etc. having to look 1:1 with the real thing. And it still took a year after the PS3's launch before it's released.

So it means there's no way PD can roll out a GT game near PS4's launch. If PD's first PS3 game, GT5, took 5+ years to make (and it still doesn't feel finished), what makes you think GT6 can be released at or near PS4's launch? GT6 on PS4 is only going take longer, it's going to be more complex to program for the PS4 and Kaz vision, God knows, how much bigger it's gonna be.

 

[pseudocaesar]

Cant help but just feel underwhelmed at the product as a whole. The racing is glorious, but man, its like dragging yourself over glass to get there.

 

[RSTEIN]

You can't customize your cars.
You don't have any weather or night races in A-Spec (at least not in the Expert Series).
You can't save during an endurance race.
The Top Gear Challenges are fucking stupid. What a waste of this license.
There's no mechanical damage in SP at all (it's a SIM, ffs!)
The multiplayer part is a joke (no leaderboards? wth?)
The AI is an asshole and very slow in the corners.
The UI looks nice, but it's inefficient and the load times can be really bad

One is perfectly happy with GT5 if they've never played Forza 3.





And one is perfectly happy with Forza 3 if they've never played GT5.

 

[enzo_gt]

I love how GT fans celebrating over that AI comparison debunked video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IiKt9gBiOo

:lol :lol :lol

Though really, this thread being bumped because of the Forza 4 reveal made me think it'd go to shits pretty quick, and it did. Somehow it found itself in AI discussion too.

 

[Ogrekiller]

ND is one of the most talented studio's out there and Uncharted DF's assets aren't near as huge and or complex as that of GT due to the cars, tracks, physics etc. having to look 1:1 with the real thing. And it still took a year after the PS3's launch before it's released.

So it means there's no way PD can roll out a GT game near PS4's launch. If PD's first PS3 game, GT5, took 5+ years to make (and it still doesn't feel finished), what makes you think GT6 can be released at or near PS4's launch? GT6 on PS4 is only going take longer, it's going to be more complex to program for the PS4 and Kaz vision, God knows, how much bigger it's gonna be.

GT3 came out a year after the PS2 launched and that came just 2 years after they launched GT2.

 

[paskowitz]

I'm perfectly happy with it. All they really need to do is release Spec upgrades like they did to Prologue. A few new tracks packaged with some cars and that would be great. Then they can put the sequel on the PS4 at or around launch time. I'm not really interested in just a simple "more cars and tracks" GT, I want them to be as ambitious as they were with GT5. So, let them work on it for the PS4 instead of the PS3 so that they can definitely pull that off. It'll also give them time to figure out how to expand the Special Events mode into the new GT mode, which I think everyone wants.

Exactly. Just keep updating GT5 as they work on GT6. GT5 has the base to do this. All they have to do is add new events, update standard cars, make more premiums race mod-able, DLC tracks w/ events etc.

As far as the argument, PD should work with what they have, I say BS. I do not hold this opinion because for some strange reason the PS3 is not worthy of PD. No, given PD and GT's development cycle I think it would behoove both PD and GT fans if they focused on a PS4 title.

The reason is, GT5 is what it is. GT6 on the PS3 will be a much more polished version of GT5. It will look marginally better, but only marginally. GOW is a completely different game with a completely different engine. To think that all games on the PS3 can look as good as it does is a rather novel thought. GT5 is not exactly rock solid stable with 16 premium cars on track, in the rain, at night all at once. The current state of the game is pretty astounding considering everything that is going on. But then you look at the shadows and other areas of trouble, and you have to ask yourself, how much more does the PS3 have to give? And is that extra 10-15% worth it on the PS3? I say no. This is just an opinion, and many people may see otherwise.

Next, GT5 has released about 50-60% through the PS3's relevant life cycle (ie PS3-PS4 time). If GT6 is a PS3 title, GT7 would not release for at least one year after the PS4 is launched (assuming a 2013 launch. If it is 2014 then things change a bit.). You may also want to consider that they may want to / be forced to, make a PSP2 title. This will also take time.

I rather PD update GT5 with new content every year until GT6 and then release a truly godly game. It would skyrocket PS4 sales. This would take the pressure off of Sony to have a huge launch lineup as GT6 would basically ensure that every person in Europe and Japan buys a PS4. Throw in a shooter for the US and you have yourself a great launch.

Kaz has also publicly stated that he feels held back by the PS3 hardware and that GT5 is only about 80% of his final vision. Basically, I do not want a repeat of GT5. I do not want to have to sit through a prologue or demo or whatever. I want PD to make the BEST possible game they can.

Oh yeah forgot to mention something about FM. Since I enjoy both games, I rather T10 keep their schedule and PD keep theirs and GT and FM alternate. This keeps the wait for the next GT or FM much more bearable. So while I wait for FM4 I'll play GT5. Then switch to FM4 in the wait for GT6.

 

[user_nat]

GT3 came out a year after the PS2 launched and that came just 2 years after they launched GT2.

GT3 also had less than 200 cars. Not sure if that would go over very well these days.

 

[SolidSnakex]

ND is one of the most talented studio's out there and Uncharted DF's assets aren't near as huge and or complex as that of GT due to the cars, tracks, physics etc. having to look 1:1 with the real thing. And it still took a year after the PS3's launch before it's released.

So it means there's no way PD can roll out a GT game near PS4's launch. If PD's first PS3 game, GT5, took 5+ years to make (and it still doesn't feel finished), what makes you think GT6 can be released at or near PS4's launch? GT6 on PS4 is only going take longer, it's going to be more complex to program for the PS4 and Kaz vision, God knows, how much bigger it's gonna be.

Hiring more staff would obviously help a lot. They've also got a bunch got their premium cars that will only need some touching up for GT6 (if it's a PS4 title) rather than having to complete rebuild all those cars. It's just my own speculation. Would it be possible? Who knows of sure. But GT6 on the PS4 is much more desirable to me than GT6 on the PS3.

 

[bedlamite]

Car customisation would be neat to have, but I wouldn't label that as a priority. I'm not going to lie and say I wasn't slightly disappointed when I saw that all you could do in GT5 was slap on a wing or some such, but really, I think a modern racing sim needs damage. Damage changes the way you race; I was mildly taken aback when I slammed into an AI racer in one of my early races at high speed and we both came off none the worse for wear. IIRC GT4 would give you a short speed penalty for that, why wasn't that carried over? I know there's damage in GT5, but I read somewhere it has to be unlocked? For a realistic driving sim this is kind of a ridiculous design decision.

Also, this premium/standard bullshit has to stop. Either hire more modellers, outsource, or downgrade the car quality a little. I'm sure this has been said before, but only Polyphony could shove shit like this down our throats and expect to get away with it. GT5's driving model is sublime but there's so much crap like the cars, the cluttered PC-ish UI, etc all getting in the way of the driving experience.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I favor GT6 PS3, but it really depends on when the PS4 comes out.

We just need more content (events, tracks, cars) and for them to fix the little stuff (over the next two years), but I don't wanna be charged extra for everything you know.

 

[gogogow]

GT3 came out a year after the PS2 launched and that came just 2 years after they launched GT2.

You are only proving my point. GT3 2 years after PS2 launch, GT5, 4 years after PS3 launch.

Also, this premium/standard bullshit has to stop. Either hire more modellers, outsource, or downgrade the car quality a little. I'm sure this has been said before, but only Polyphony could shove shit like this down our throats and expect to get away with it. GT5's driving model is sublime but there's so much crap like the cars, the cluttered PC-ish UI, etc all getting in the way of the driving experience.

They aren't getting away with it. The sales are already dropping like a rock after the 1st week in Japan, shops are filled with used Limited Editions and all. People barely played it, since the driving model is excellent, they must've been turned off by the game's graphical weakness (standard cars, shadows, particles, standard tracks, framerate, tearing etc.) and felt dissapointed after all those years of waiting, there's no other explanation. In other regions, we have to wait and see.

 

[paskowitz]

^
While I think we will have to wait and see, I think it is safe to say that this GT will have not have exceptional sales. Too much went wrong. It will probably be bundled with PS3's and eventually in a year or so become a greatest hit. I really think that last minute release change hurt the public perception of the game. That and the almost complete lack of marketing.

 

[Bebpo]

You are only proving my point. GT3 2 years after PS2 launch, GT5, 4 years after PS3 launch.


They aren't getting away with it. The sales are already dropping like a rock after the 1st week in Japan, shops are filled with used Limited Editions and all. People barely played it, since the driving model is excellent, they must've been turned off by the game's graphical weakness (standard cars, shadows, particles, standard tracks, framerate, tearing etc.) and felt dissapointed after all those years of waiting, there's no other explanation. In other regions, we have to wait and see.

uhhh, I don't think it's just the graphics that cause people to dislike the game or criticize it. I'd say the complaints are 90% about the gameplay/interface problems and only 10% about things like standard cars or alpha textures or shadows or whatever.

 

[gogogow]

uhhh, I don't think it's just the graphics that cause people to dislike the game or criticize it. I'd say the complaints are 90% about the gameplay/interface problems and only 10% about things like standard cars or alpha textures or shadows or whatever.

Yeah, sure, there's too much wrong with it and they felt dissapointed, otherwise they wouldn't sell it so quickly like it has some infectious disease or something.

edit: So that's even worse than I thought, so they had problems with the basics of the game, like UI and gameplay and deemed it unplayable?

 

[Fusebox]

People barely played it, since the driving model is excellent, they must've been turned off by the game's graphical weakness (standard cars, shadows, particles, standard tracks, framerate, tearing etc.) and felt dissapointed after all those years of waiting, there's no other explanation.

The driving model is truly excellent, unfortunately the physics and AI surrounding the driving model aren't up to scratch.

 

[Shaneus]

The driving model is truly excellent, unfortunately the physics and AI surrounding the driving model aren't up to scratch.

Running into cars sucks, too. Still feels like bumper cars even though there's damage :/ With Forza, even though the damage was prebaked and not dynamic, an impact actually felt like an impact and not a massage.

 

[Fusebox]

Yep, so true. I have the most fun in GT5 when I get out in front and lead the entire way. Jostling with other cars makes me want to throw my PS3 through a window.

GT5 = my favourite driving game
Forza 3 = my favourite racing game

 

[KingDizzi]

Running into cars sucks, too. Still feels like bumper cars even though there's damage :/ With Forza, even though the damage was prebaked and not dynamic, an impact actually felt like an impact and not a massage.

I honestly believe that the GT AI is nothing more than a design choice, there is simply no way PD do not know that the AI is brain dead. They do absolutely nothing and also with design choices like damage being unlocked after a certain level, I think PD are well aware of whom their largest audience is. I assume those people want to feel like superstars, passing cars without any issues and gliding to first with absolutely no effort, anecdotal evidence are my mates whom played GT5 for a few weeks loved it until it got hard and they simply said "yeah fuck that game".:lol :lol

My main issue with GT5 is that the most simple features are not there during release. GT5 still does not have leaderboards, online credits and other online features GT5 had done actually very well. The load times are also really getting to me, after the install the install times are still atrocious, it is something simply has to be fixed. PD can milk GT5 for all it's worth which is why I hope they go down that route rather than another GT game for the PS3. Spec updates, expansion packs like TT2 and we can really keep going on, GT5 is a goldmine for DLC and PD should pursue it. Another thing Kaz needs to do is treat handhelds with more respect, it's like he gave GT PSP to some cleaners at PD and said "here make a game." PD need to hire some more people because they can certainly afford it, get working on a good GT game for the PSP2 and GT6 for PS4 both of which are launch titles.

 

[Fusebox]

That'd make sense if the lack of decent AI and physics at lower levels made the game easier, but they don't, they make the game harder.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Lack of decent physics? The hell are you guys smoking?

 

[Shaneus]

I honestly believe that the GT AI is nothing more than a design choice, there is simply no way PD do not know that the AI is brain dead. They do absolutely nothing and also with design choices like damage being unlocked after a certain level, I think PD are well aware of whom their largest audience is. I assume those people want to feel like superstars, passing cars without any issues and gliding to first with absolutely no effort, anecdotal evidence are my mates whom played GT5 for a few weeks loved it until it got hard and they simply said "yeah fuck that game".:lol :lol

That's actually a good point... I hadn't made a huge effort to notice the AI, but have found that more than being able to drive well early on, the best way to win is to have a more powerful car than the competition. I'm not sure how it is later on in the game (I'm only level 17 I think) but it just feels like you need to get money, get best car (or upgrade) and flog the shit out of your opponents.*

*Not a deep analysis, just gives me that vibe. Pretty sure it gets better later on though.

 

[Fusebox]

Lack of decent physics? The hell are you guys smoking?

Lack of decent 'collision' physics.

With regards to making contact with other cars and/or walls, GT5 is an exercise in frustration and inconsistency.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Lack of decent 'collision' physics.

With regards to making contact with other cars and/or walls, GT5 is an exercise in frustration and inconsistency.

If you're hitting walls then you're doing something wrong, if you're hitting cars hard enough for the physics to be a problem, then you're also doing something wrong. There's nothing wrong with the physics when occasional hits/bump happen just like in real racing. Race ending crashes are awkward, but again, if you're doing those and wanted them to be realistic, you'd be restarting the race.

 

[Psychotext]

There's nothing wrong with the physics when occasional hits happen just like in real racing.

Not my experience. Even low speed collisions often don't play out as you'd expect them to (such as getting stuck temporarily or bouncing off at a strange angle).

 

[NullPointer]

If you're hitting walls then you're doing something wrong...

Doing something wrong is part of the game, and part of racing.

Its like saying you don't have to implement decent player damage in shooters (if you're getting hit you're doing something wrong...) and asking players to restart if they take a bullet. C'mon now.

There are so many little gripes about GT5 that I don't think its a solid foundation that can be dramatically improved by just small tweaks or additional content. The driving is solid, and I love it to death. But everything else needs some serious work or tuning for GT5 to be the standard that we judge these games by.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Not my experience. Even low speed collisions often don't play out as you'd expect them to (such as getting stuck temporarily or bouncing off at a strange angle).

Never had either of those happen. I occasionally spin out without actually being propelled, kinda odd that you'd loose grip that way, but thats it.

Doing something wrong is part of the game, and part of racing.

Its like saying you don't have to implement decent player damage in shooters (if you're getting hit you're doing something wrong...) and asking players to restart if they take a bullet. C'mon now.

Getting shot is something common in a shooter. Hitting walls is not something common in a racing sim.

 

[enzo_gt]

Lack of decent physics? The hell are you guys smoking?

The word 'decent' has no meaning anymore. Everything is either "best in the industry" or "abysmal" by comparison.

 

[NullPointer]

Getting shot is something common in a shooter. Hitting walls is not something common in a racing sim.

Alright then, use "fall damage" as an example then. Players shouldnt walk right off heights too often, but that doesn't mean you don't design and implement a decent result.

Edit: And I'd take a bet that everybody that's played GT5 has slammed into walls or other cars. In realistic sims its almost unavoidable.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Getting shot is something common in a shooter. Hitting walls is not something common in a racing sim.

I didn't realize all sim players are perfect and never have to worry about hitting anything. It's like racing in real life, realism ftw!

 

[Yoritomo]

Lack of decent physics? The hell are you guys smoking?

They might be blaming physics for cars that aren't modeled/setup properly. Brake balance being wrong. Almost every MR car in the game being oversteer happy where in most cases IRL they actually push. the driving model is fun and seat of your pants exciting but it's just flat out not correct in so so many of the cars. Racing tires are probably too forgiving and dirt is just plain wrong. I've never driven hard or been in a snow event IRL so I can't really compare that one but I have pretty severe doubts given the consistency of the snow events.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

They might be blaming physics for cars that aren't modeled/setup properly. Brake balance being wrong. Almost every MR car in the game being oversteer happy where in most cases IRL they actually push. the driving model is fun and seat of your pants exciting but it's just flat out not correct in so so many of the cars. Racing tires are probably too forgiving and dirt is just plain wrong. I've never driven hard or been in a snow event IRL so I can't really compare that one but I have pretty severe doubts given the consistency of the snow events.

Others have mentioned how GT5 is lacking in the offroad/rally stuff when compared to sims like RBR.

 

[Fusebox]

If you're hitting walls then you're doing something wrong, if you're hitting cars hard enough for the physics to be a problem, then you're also doing something wrong.

It almost sounds like you're saying that the collision physics are fine, just as long as people don't actually collide with anything... :lol

 

[Stallion Free]

It almost sounds like you're saying that the collision physics are fine, just as long as people don't actually collide with anything... :lol

That's how it sounded to me too.

I guess if I never put the disc in for either game, they are issue free.

 

[paskowitz]

Others have mentioned how GT5 is lacking in the offroad/rally stuff when compared to sims like RBR.

Its actually pretty close. The sounds are obviously not up to par. Neither are the cars reactions to undulations and bumps. But the FFB is 99% as good as RBR, which is quite a statement. Mostly due to the translation of the road surface to your hands. RBR is better, obviously but rally in GT5 is damn good. For one, it is hard. Good luck doing some of the challenges. The Euro tour one is especially tough.

 

[Metalmurphy]

It almost sounds like you're saying that the collision physics are fine, just as long as people don't actually collide with anything... :lol

Small collisions are fine, hard head on collisions aren't. Hard head on collisions never happen unless you do them on purpose and if they were realistic you'd have to restart the race, I can understand the reasoning on not wanting to model something perfectly that will never happen on normal conditions... Not sure how you found it hard to understand what I meant.

That's how it sounded to me too.

I guess if I never put the disc in for either game, they are issue free.

You should do stand up comedy.

 

[Shaneus]

Small collisions are fine, hard head on collisions aren't. Hard head on collisions never happen unless you do them on purpose and if they were realistic you'd have to restart the race, I can understand the reasoning on not wanting to model something perfectly that will never happen on normal conditions... Not sure how you found it hard to understand what I meant.

Pretty sure he was talking about nudging/bumping (in relation to collisions with other cars). I know that's what I was referring to.

 

[NullPointer]

You should do stand up comedy.

You'll need to provide more material.

I'd also recommend giving Forza 3 a go if you haven't to see the difference. While I'm not one to claim its got the best realism out there in terms of damage, as a game, collisions are loud, jarring, and things to be avoided, just as they should be. They provide the proper feedback for your actions in real time, with real effects, regardless of whether you actually take mechanical damage or not (its an optional difficulty setting).

 

[Fusebox]

Small collisions are fine

Small collisions are just as horrible. I shouldn't get randomly 'stuck' on other cars and walls when I bump into them lightly or get bumped by them.

Hard head on collisions never happen unless you do them on purpose

What? My cars don't run on rails and there's every chance I'll fuck up massively at speed and plow into something accidentally. I'm not a pro race driver, and I'm not using a pro racing wheel, why on earth wouldn't I expect to have a hard collision at some stage?

You should do stand up comedy.

Weak.

And none of these would be as big an issue if Forza 3 hadn't done such a great job handling collision physics. Jostling for position in Forza 3 is enjoyable. If I get pit'ed in Forza 3 it feels like I deserved it for being in a bad spot, not like it was an unavoidable consequence of being in first place, but I never get that sense from GT5, nearly every encounter with another car feels like a blind guy just barrelled past me in a Sherman tank.

 

[bedlamite]

FM3 really does do collisions better. I say this not as a guy who starts a game up just to ram AI cars in the back, but sometimes you completely misjudge a turn and fuck it up, and it just so happens you end up rear-ending another car at speed. When that happens in Forza, there's visual damage, and both cars suffer performance hits as a result. When the same happens in GT5, I hear a 'ba-dump', we slow down for a bit, and then we go on our merry way. Granted I'm only a lvl 7 in GT5 but still, this ain't right.

 

[Shaneus]

^^ Pretty much. This is why I'm pumped for Forza 4... it's not the first time they're doing damage so you know it'll only improve from F3. You know the tyre physics will be spot on and the engine sounds will be decent, if not better than their previous game. The only real uncertainties are how/if they handle weather and different road surfaces like dirt. But given the subtleties you can feel on different surfaces in, say, Sebring (going from concrete(?) to asphalt) I'm hopeful.

Maybe Polyphony were trying to implement too much into the one game? Maybe just stick with weather and damage and then put NASCAR/rally into a future iteration (or even a spinoff).

 

[enzo_gt]

FM3 really does do collisions better. I say this not as a guy who starts a game up just to ram AI cars in the back, but sometimes you completely misjudge a turn and fuck it up, and it just so happens you end up rear-ending another car at speed. When that happens in Forza, there's visual damage, and both cars suffer performance hits as a result. When the same happens in GT5, I hear a 'ba-dump', we slow down for a bit, and then we go on our merry way. Granted I'm only a lvl 7 in GT5 but still, this ain't right.

There's no mechanical damage in GT? I always just assumed there was visual and mechanical.

If there is no mechanical damage I just don't understand how the fuck you could defend GT damage over Forza damage.

 

[Gek54]

There's no mechanical damage in GT? I always just assumed there was visual and mechanical.

If there is no mechanical damage I just don't understand how the fuck you could defend GT damage over Forza damage.

There are 2 levels of mechanical damage online.

 

[brotkasten]

There's no mechanical damage in GT? I always just assumed there was visual and mechanical.

If there is no mechanical damage I just don't understand how the fuck you could defend GT damage over Forza damage.

GT5's single player doesn't have any mechanical damage. The MP got it via patch last week.