Support NeoGAF

[flyinpiranha]

What kind of failed logic is that? Lol.

Who says they need to sacrifice any frame rate consistency to get the said features in? All they have to do is drop some of the graphical details, texture quality or whatever. Perhaps they thought better visuals were more important than added features.

It was smart ass logic but sense you are serious (and we already know we completely disagree with what makes a racing game fun) I'll answer "HELL NO" to any of those drops. I've seen what a game looks like when the graphic fidelity is sacrificed to add features haphazardly.

And with how many features are in the game, I'm completely happy with them making that decision. Night racing, weather ... all really fun but if it comes at a sacrifice to how amazing Forza 4 looks I'd rather they not add it. And honestly the way it was added to GT5 it's like you had to hunt for those options. I played up to level 30+, golded first 3 difficulty levels every race and I honestly can't remember weather or night races unless I did a lap myself purposely and changed it.

I would have easily accepted no weather, night, w/e if the FR in GT5 stayed consistent and the shadows/smoke didn't completely ruin the immersion is some races, along with tearing. That would be the easiest trade off on the planet.

Forget weather, they should have atleast put one track with a wet surface.

I agree. I would have liked night also but the game would have suffered because of it as mentioned in an interview. To add things, you must cut another. It looks good on paper but in the end I'm glad it looks fantastic ALL the time instead of a list of bullet points and looks fantastic some of the time.

 

[NavNucST3]

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbwGSTmhXK4


it's pretty much summarize the actual situation of this thread =D

That was the most depressing display of computational skills insofar as "No" translated into "half" and shortly thereafter into "100".

 

[phosphor112]

I think this is the proper place to put this.

http://bitmob.com/articles/forza-4-proves-racing-sims-are-fun

"WITH COMMENTARY!" Edition

Forza 4 proves racing sims should be fun

Is it just me or have all the sims I've played been fun?...

by Jasmine Maleficent Rea, BITMOB STAFF
Thursday, October 06, 2011

herewego.jpeg

Gran Turismo gives racing simulators a bad name. Gran Turismo 5 made car sims seem like stuffy and cumbersome beasts. Don't get me wrong; it's a good game, but it isn't a great one.

disgunbegood.gif She's obviously never played a "sim" outside of console.

Gran Turismo 5 simply isn't fun. It is too bogged down by precision and realism for the average gamer to embrace it -- and that's totally OK. A lot of gearheads are into being as detailed as possible. They build racing seat setups in their living rooms and likely have an old sports car that they drive to the store once a week.

So.. sims should be fun... but they are fun... for the audience it was intended for... but they should be fun for everyone else?

And for those people, I present this picture:

Meet Jeremy Clarkson. He's a presenter on BBC's Top Gear and he's nothing like the people I've described. He's loud and brash, and doesn't claim to know the first thing about correctly timing an engine. He's the antithesis of precision and "realism."

Top Gear's philosophy is that cars are meant to be enjoyed. They test and review vehicles anyone would salivate over and their coverage is never stale. Cars are fun and should be judged on how well they serve that purpose.

The Forza series embraces this same idea. Racing should be a manic, knuckle-whitening affair. Your heart should pound and every vehicle should come with its own set of complications and demands. Like Top Gear, Forza is all about the thrill and danger involved in driving expensive cars very quickly. It makes sense, then, that Forza 4 would join forces with Top Gear to save the world from laboriously precise racing sims.

Jeremy Clarkson is a very moving speaker. His voice commands you to listen, and even if you don't agree with his politics or his actions, you can feel the passion in his words. Forza 4 opens with him delivering a stirring monologue about how loving cars isn't wrong. Environmental pressures and economic concerns are taking a terrible toll on the automotive industry and people who enjoy driving. Games like Forza exist to capture the essence of being in a fast car and preserve it.

/top gear philosophical rant.

Forza 4 is all about being behind the wheel. In fact, after Clarkson stops talking about how wonderful cars are, you're instantly thrown into a race. You don't select your track or what you're driving. Where Gran Turismo 5 greets its players with endless menus and an agonizing clock-syncing feature, Forza tosses out all the complication and gets right down to the reason you bought the game in the first place: driving.

As much as I'd like to get straight into a game, is it that hard to get through a games initial setup nowadays? Really?

One of the most frustrating design choices in GT5 was the feeling that you were driving a giant marshmallow. No amount of contact during a race seemed to disturb the car's trajectory or condition.

While GT's collision isn't great, these cars are several tons of metal that are frankly hard to change the direction of their momentum.

Cars were simply too gorgeous and expensive to ever be seen in a damaged state. Hell, even trying to flip in GT5 is a Herculean task, one I accomplished by turning absolutely every limiting setting off and driving a Zonda F as fast as possible into a guard rail. It really wasn't worth the hassle.

Driving a car straight into a wall will cause it to crumble... not FLIP. These cars in these games don't crumble.. so what do they do? Instead of simulating a wrong flip (which is incorrect) the car would just STOP. There is no horizontal force that can be strong enough to cause a flip. Unless there was an object that would for some reason cause the car to go upward (like a ramp or something) it wouldn't flip... basic physics.

Forza takes a shockingly more realistic approach, at least in terms of car physics. Gran Turismo is all about the motion and the function of cars without satisfying curiosity. What if I want to see what happens if I skid against a guard rail at 200 miles per hour? In Forza, the result is catastrophic and full of chipped bodywork, tire smoke, and a potential multi-car spinout. Even though the race is decidedly over for me at that point, crashing was really damned entertaining. GT is too concerned with actual race realism to bother with how spectacular a mistake can be.

Wtf is she talking about? Are there no "multi-car spinouts" in GT5? Aren't sims supposed to be concerned with realism? They are simulating real life...

Forza 4 also embraces Top Gear's over-the-top format by including the show's full test track and a series of interesting challenges. You won't be driving across the spine of Africa in an Opel, but the tasks are still ridiculous. For example, you can take every car class for a spin around the Top Gear track while knocking down as many gigantic bowling pins as possible. Getting a high score depends on how well you've mastered your selected car.

Sure GT5 doesn't have bowling.. but it has Rally, racing Samba buses, go kart racing... does it have to be off the wall to be fun?

Everything that's good about Forza 4 is drenched in surprising blend of cheekiness and passion. You get the feeling that the people making this game love cars for completely different reasons than the man who meticulously polishes his Aston Martin DB9. A love of speed, recklessness, and good-natured buffoonery shines through a beautiful racing sim. If you want precision Forza 4 will gladly give it to you, but that's not the emphasis. Even the Autovista mode that lets you take a 3D tour of several cars in the game balances its intense geekery with humor.

How is Autovista mode humorous? Just wondering.

Overbearing racing realism isn't fun for most people, but no one's denying that someone, somewhere, really enjoys it. Forza 4 is the balance between serious racing and the unbridled love of cars. Bringing Top Gear into the mix marks the line between Forza and Gran Turismo. It's Microsoft boldly declaring that, hey, some people want to be entertained by their cars, not fulfill a bizarre racing fantasy. Gran Turismo exists for those who do want to live that dream, but for me, being able to drive a Peugeot 908 sideways through a glass tunnel only to have it end in a terrible crash is pure, unadulterated fun.

Just like a fighting game won't be perfect for someone who plays madden or COD won't be perfect for a Peggle playing mother, a racing sim won't be perfect for everyone. When you start to blur that line, you lose focus. iRacing wouldn't be the sim it is today if it let anyone get on and play in a race, or let you experience SHOCK AND AWE when a car flips.. you know what happens? You get kicked out. You lose your ranks... Why? All these guys want to race. Not crash, not bumpin and a grindin or the rippin and the tearin. Race. They love the physics, they love the competition, and iRacing is a simulation in it's purist form. It might be fun for everyone, but it isn't supposed to be.

Journalism.

 

[AgentChris]

It's bitmob. They looking for hits.

 

[Toxa]

Need MOAR

 

[djplaeskool]

Gran Turismo 5 simply isn't fun. It is too bogged down by precision and realism for the average gamer to embrace it

Gran Turismo.
The TOO Real Driving Simulator.

 

[phosphor112]

Gran Turismo.
The TOO Real Driving Simulator.

But it's a marshmallow...
Heh...

 

[Xanadu]

Gran Turismo.
The TOO Real Driving Simulator.

if only that was true

 

[ShapeGSX]

How is Autovista mode humorous? Just wondering.

Jeremy Clarkson's commentary on the cars in Autovista is funny.

 

[Majanew]

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbwGSTmhXK4


it's pretty much summarize the actual situation of this thread =D

HAHA

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think this is the proper place to put this.

http://bitmob.com/articles/forza-4-proves-racing-sims-are-fun

"WITH COMMENTARY!" Edition

Eh, it's the same tone as the comments from some GamesRadar writer that complained about not understanding how GT is so popular since it doesn't attempt to welcome newcomers.

 

[Xanadu]

i dont think they realise GTs core fans are huge sim guys

 

[Toxa]

 

[Heshinsi]

So if GT is "too real" for the average consumer to play, why the hell is it so damn popular? And if the answer is that only the hardcore buy it, then why should what casuals think matter when each game in the series has lifetime sales close to or above 10 million?

 

[phosphor112]

I KNOW IT'S NOT MOVING BUT IT FEELS LIKE IT IS!! D=

 

[patsu]

So if GT is "too real" for the average consumer to play, why the hell is it so damn popular? And if the answer is that only the hardcore buy it, then why should what casuals think matter when each game in the series has lifetime sales close to or above 10 million?

The special events !

I don't generally like racing games. I play Mario Kart and MotorStorm and that's it.

The special events feed the driving mechanics to me spoon by spoon. I don't even need to complete the entire track. The cars have a pre-set path so I can correct my old mistakes in every new run. Some like the Sambabus are difficult but there are also easy ones. My newbie friend and I just replay it until we clear a level and move on. We <3 the AMG one especially. NASCAR is memorable too.

 

[ShapeGSX]

NASCAR is memorable too.

Memorable is a nice way of putting it. I'll definitely never forget zombie Jeff Gordon.

 

[nib95]

Some good one's.

 

[Wazzim]

Guys, this isn't the photo thread. This thread should be about ingame graphics instead.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I can't even tell which game is which anymore.

 

[CozMick]

I can't even tell which game is which anymore.

When F4 looks like GT5 it's more than likely that AutoVista is used....

 

[djplaeskool]

Bitmob article author posted a response to a comment:

As I said, GT5 isn't a bad game, but it is out of touch with the segment of car fans who want to do something risky and rambunctious.

You know, as I'm blazing through the Nordschleife and approach the Caracciola Karussell, other cars close in my rear view, I wonder to myself, "What would happen if I slam the brakes, put my Audi R8 into a 180 and play chicken with that SLS AMG 4 positions back?"

"Nah, that would be silly...and f-ing dangerous."

Gran Turismo.
The TOO Real, Not Risky Or Rambunctious Driving Simulator.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Guys, this isn't the photo thread. This thread should be about ingame graphics instead.

Most people don't have capture cards, so the photo mode is what you'll mostly see.

 

[Xanadu]

When F4 looks like GT5 it's more than likely that AutoVista is used....

not really, its all in the lighting, the top gear homespace looks amazing

 

[patsu]

Memorable is a nice way of putting it. I'll definitely never forget zombie Jeff Gordon.

Jeff Gordon's look doesn't affect the driving at all. I keep hearing his voice at the end of the test though ^_^. It's the driving that will make you remember and appreciate NASCAR. I barely scrap past the test. My friend is better than me.

 

[Steve McQueen]

Don't know how to explain it properly, but the angle in which you can see the cars in third person view in Forza is kinda weird to me. The cars, well the back of the cars that is, seem longer. I compared it with GT5 and the third person view of the cars in GT5 look better imo...it's like the camera is a bit lower behind the cars in GT5.
Or am I wrong?

 

[patsu]

Bitmob article author posted a response to a comment:


You know, as I'm blazing through the Nordschleife and approach the Caracciola Karussell, other cars close in my rear view, I wonder to myself, "What would happen if I slam the brakes, put my Audi R8 into a 180 and play chicken with that SLS AMG 4 positions back?"

"Nah, that would be silly...and f-ing dangerous."

Gran Turismo.
The TOO Real, Not Risky Or Rambunctious Driving Simulator.

The dirt and snow rally racing did encourage people to take risk though. The AMG track also. At least I did. I don't play night racing but I presume it's interesting too.

Come to think of it, there are GT5 gamers who race to become real-life race car driver. If that's not risk taking, I don't know who else is. That guy is mostly just speaking for himself.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Bitmob article author posted a response to a comment:


You know, as I'm blazing through the Nordschleife and approach the Caracciola Karussell, other cars close in my rear view, I wonder to myself, "What would happen if I slam the brakes, put my Audi R8 into a 180 and play chicken with that SLS AMG 4 positions back?"

"Nah, that would be silly...and f-ing dangerous."

Gran Turismo.
The TOO Real, Not Risky Or Rambunctious Driving Simulator.

It seems to me, that the point of the article is that GT is not trying to be a game, and for that factor alone it's a lesser game then forza.

Once you start ignoring the platform and format you're developing for, your focus becomes muddy and lost, and your game design suffers. Same goes for other media, making a movie based on the sitcom TV format is setting yourself up for failure. Hence why movies that do tend to suffer in reviews from critics.

 

[patsu]

You can argue it either way. It may be trying to redefine gaming, blurring and skirting along the boundary. Hence it is more than gaming. You can tell from their GT Academy events, making concept cars, that they are positioning it as a hobby/lifestyle too.

 

[Betta Lines]

not really, its all in the lighting, the top gear homespace looks amazing

That is just an HDRi image.

 

[FStop7]

The Porsche thing is a big disappointment, but I get that's not T10's fault.

Having played the F4 demo a bit, I found the lighting to be much better. But most importantly I found the way the cars drive to also be much better. I had felt like Forza 3 had come up short compared to GT5 in that department. No longer. Now it feels like parity. Neither game is iRacing, but they have both come a long way closer to the sim side of things. I'm pretty hyped for Forza 4 based on the demo.

 

[Xanadu]

That is just an HDRi image.

the lighting on the cars i meant

 

[Arklite]

I think this is the proper place to put this.

http://bitmob.com/articles/forza-4-proves-racing-sims-are-fun

I find it interesting when people claim GT is "out of touch" because it lacks the explosively dramatic collisions of GRID, the extreme speed of Burnout, and the wackiness of....what? Mario Kart?

Arcade video games, movies, tv shows are the 'reality' these authors are looking for in GT and they end up disappointed when they don't find it. You can absolutely test your fate by turning sharply left in the middle of a high speed race. No, the game isn't going to build you a Hollywood style pile up just because you want to see one.

You're going to crash, you may take a couple of cars with you, and the rest are going to race by towards the finish.

 

[tusken77]

Come to think of it, there are GT5 gamers who race to become real-life race car driver. If that's not risk taking, I don't know who else is. That guy is mostly just speaking for himself.

That girl is mostly just speaking for herself.

 

[Angst]

I find it interesting when people claim GT is "out of touch" because it lacks the explosively dramatic collisions of GRID, the extreme speed of Burnout, and the wackiness of....what? Mario Kart?

Arcade video games, movies, tv shows are the 'reality' these authors are looking for in GT and they end up disappointed when they don't find it. You can absolutely test your fate by turning sharply left in the middle of a high speed race. No, the game isn't going to build you a Hollywood style pile up just because you want to see one.

You're going to crash, you may take a couple of cars with you, and the rest are going to race by towards the finish.

A guy in the comments at bitmob said he used to like GT, but when Burnout 3 came out he felt that GT needed to follow in those foot steps... Burnout is awesome, so is Motorstorm and Mario Kart, but I don't want that in my racing sim.

Things like this makes me glad that PD is "disconnected" and "doesn't care what other devs do".

 

[patsu]

That girl is mostly just speaking for herself.

A female race car gamer ! I'm married but does she like to take risk and date a married man ?

 

[tusken77]

A female race car gamer ! I'm married but does she like to take risk and date a married man ?

lol

 

[KingDizzi]

So if GT is "too real" for the average consumer to play, why the hell is it so damn popular? And if the answer is that only the hardcore buy it, then why should what casuals think matter when each game in the series has lifetime sales close to or above 10 million?

I'd say Nostalgia is what sells GT games and nothing more.

Would also say Forza 4 remains one ugly little bitch, the only things it loses to GT in.

 

[Angst]

I'd say Nostalgia is what sells GT games and nothing more.

Would also say Forza 4 remains one ugly little bitch, the only things it loses to GT in.

There are not enough lol smilies in the world

And going by your logic - Forza sells because of Forza nostalgia and nothing more, but it's ugly?

 

[patsu]

I'd say Nostalgia is what sells GT games and nothing more.

My friend and I have never played a GT4/3/2/1 game before. I bought GT5P out of curiosity. Bought GT5 to continue, and then bought a wheel for the game. OTOH, he has never even seen a PS3 up close. I was surprised he bought a PS3 for this game. This is the only one he plays.

I don't know why people want to second guess GT5 audience. You won't be able to know without looking at the real customer data. That's why people need market research companies.

 

[tusken77]

There are not enough lol smilies in the world

I think he was being sarcastic with both comments. I think.

 

[Angst]

I think he was being sarcastic with both comments. I think.

I hope so

 

[Arklite]

A guy in the comments at bitmob said he used to like GT, but when Burnout 3 came out he felt that GT needed to follow in those foot steps... Burnout is awesome, so is Motorstorm and Mario Kart, but I don't want that in my racing sim.

Things like this makes me glad that PD is "disconnected" and "doesn't care what other devs do".

That's actually another thing I take issue with. I could be wrong, but didn't members of Polyphony digital actually go to visit the Forza 3 section at one of the previous e3 events and sat there taking notes on the Forza 3 UI?? Obviously they didn't learn much, but they don't seem to be ignoring other games.

 

[LowerLevel]

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbwGSTmhXK4


it's pretty much summarize the actual situation of this thread =D

Fuck! I am ashamed to admit I actually met that tool before...

 

[Xanadu]

Fuck! I am ashamed to admit I actually met that tool before...

haha where

 

[LowerLevel]

haha where

Here in Boston. Fairly certain I used to work with him... He was obnoxious then as well. I need to get in contact with Haklong, he may remember. If he doesn't, then it was definitely work related. I left him a message on YouTube. If he responds I'll ask about my fuctup company.

 

[evolution]

I miss the PGR series PGR2 and GT made the perfect combo me for last gen.

 

[Xanadu]

I miss the PGR series PGR2 and GT made the perfect combo me for last gen.

agreed PGR2 was an amazing game, have you played PGR4 yet? its almost as good

 

[Betta Lines]

the lighting on the cars i meant

Yes, that's how an HDRi works.

 

[evolution]

agreed PGR2 was an amazing game, have you played PGR4 yet? its almost as good

Yeah I've played it, it's was pretty good, but didn't have the same impact pgr2 had on me. I always wished there were given another shot. Such a shame bizarre did some really cool things before any one else did.