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[offshore]

Solal... why do you hate so much on GT5..? again, according to your trophies and progress.. GT5 is your most played game on your PS3.. how can you hate a game that you have played so much..?

Is it so strange? You can criticise something that you frequently play. GT5 is one of my most played games ever, yet I moan about GT5 all the time. Hopefully though not so much after Spec II...

 

[adelante]

It doesn't. That's why the homespaces are just single spots that don't let you move the car around. They are limited to a single focal point, surrounded by a HDR image. So the Stelvio Pass, or the Top Gear backdrop.. whatever homespace you are in... they are real photos. So the renders end up looking real (for the most part) but it's limited just to those photos.

Source?

The one other game that has a similar lighting characteristics is NFS:HP and that's probably because the game uses IBL as well. But I do think the implementation in Forza is much simpler where the cars are lit by the skybox image instead of the track environment. For example, if you're driving dead centre through a tunnel in the Alps or Fujimi, you can still see the car is being predominantly lit by sun outside because one side of the car is darker than the other.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

The only problem is consistency with GT5, when at it's height no game can touch it but when at it's low's it's really ugly. The more natural colors is what makes GT5 look realistic, i don't think Turn 10 wanted to go to that direction.

This is correct for more things than just graphics.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

This is correct for more things than just graphics.

yep.

 

[phosphor112]

... Did you even watch the full thing?

I'm sure he doesn't need to considering he plays the game.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

This is correct for more things than just graphics.

Yep sold my GT a good while ago but that is it's biggest problem right there.
GT need PS4 all these up date are great but it needs a new system for us to get to next level.

 

[eso76]

Unless there has been a huge improvement on what I've been using for years, IBL is still strictly based on images, not 3D environtments. I suppose it is possible with a 3D environment, but that would require a rasterized image of the 3D environment... possible a cube map, but also rendered with HDR. That would significantly increase rendering times. Might be possible on a 30fps game, but 60? I highly doubt that.

well, i would imagine lighting track and cars using a hdr skydome would work a lot of the time (until you get in a tunnel ). I imagined they would use the cube map they use for reflections, but i don't know if those retain hdr.

I think you can fake IBL rather efficiently by just pre-baking several light sources of the right colour and intensity in the environment. I do that all the time in renderings

 

[nib95]

... Did you even watch the full thing?

I did. Rough estimates.

Night/rain racing - Average 40fps

Rally - Average 55+fps

City 1 - Average 50+fps

City 2 - Average 50fps

Track 1 - Average 48+fps

Snow - Average 54fps+

Now the thing is, where the average is lower is usually because they've specifically chosen sections of huge clusters of cars amalgamating together at corners (in other words worst offender scenario's). Generally cornering options being slim and speed being quite slow, hence why the frame rate drops aren't as obvious.

That said, these tests are all with Vanilla GT5. I'm almost certain that the frame rate will be noticeably better with 2.0 and prior. I mean, I haven't played vanilla GT5 in ages, but I can tell you the frame rate is pretty much solid now. In fairness, besides with the weather tracks, I barely even really notice it dip.

.

 

[phosphor112]

Source?

The one other game that has a similar lighting characteristics is NFS:HP and that's probably because the game uses IBL as well. But I do think the implementation in Forza is much simpler where the cars are lit by the skybox image instead of the track environment. For example, if you're driving dead centre through a tunnel in the Alps or Fujimi, you can still see the car is being predominantly lit by sun outside because one side of the car is darker than the other.

I explained in another one of my posts how it isn't IBL. Sure it might use the skybox, but games for years have been using cube maps and skyboxes to illuminate models. This isn't anything new or impressive. On the other hand, if it were the whole environment taken into account for IBL, and not just the sky, to be considered good.

well, i would imagine lighting track and cars using a hdr skydome would work a lot of the time (until you get in a tunnel ). I imagined they would use the cube map they use for reflections, but i don't know if those retain hdr.

I think you can fake IBL rather efficiently by just pre-baking several light sources of the right colour and intensity in the environment. I do that all the time in renderings

HDR can be implemented into cube mapping. I think they might just have a series of cube maps around the track that are HDR. On the plus side, reflections look great, and you can get great results that way on the cheap. On the downside, there won't be reflections of cars or anything else dynamic shown on the reflections.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think GT5 uses a rasterized method for reflections since the game has dynamic lighting. I'm not sure though.. it could very well be cube maps, but I doubt that since the reflections are often low resolution.

 

[adelante]

Unless there has been a huge improvement on what I've been using for years, IBL is still strictly based on images, not 3D environtments. I suppose it is possible with a 3D environment, but that would require a rasterized image of the 3D environment... possible a cube map, but also rendered with HDR. That would significantly increase rendering times. Might be possible on a 30fps game, but 60? I highly doubt that.

Again, they seemed to have achieved it in NFS:HP. The fact that Turn10 needs the game to run at 60fps is probably the reason why they went with the skybox HDRI approach.

 

[RukusProvider]

It's funny to me that the track used to showcase GT5's biggest frame rate drop (which is otherwise generally 50fps+ 95% of the time, and that was before the recent updates) is a track during night time and with full rain effects. Both things Forza doesn't even have lol.

Is it worth the cost of the frame rate drop? Definitely to me. Especially since the drops are usually only when you're driving at a crawl in a cluster of cars tightly packed together where you can't even move out anyway, so it's not like the extra frames even make a difference with respect to precision or driving options etc.

GT5's night/rain combo races provide a unique and unrivalled experience that adds a whole new dimension to sim racing.




Further evidence of trolling. It's like you only watched the first portion of the video. The frame rate is 60fps on common occasion.

It's like you watched a different video.

The framerate is not even close to 60fps on night racing track, london or the track after. It only hits 60 at times when the car is by itself on the rally tracks. Even on the rally tacks which have less complexity, the moment you get close to other cars, framerate suffers.

Just because you're ok with framerate dips and tearing for the sake of feature doesn't mean you can simply round things up to 60fps for a feel good. Clearly going from a theoretical 60fps to sub 30's on the rain track is fine by you thus going forward, you should not have any complaints about framerate or tearing in any game since you are completely indifferent to them.

GT is only 60 when you're racing alone on a standard track. Even then you'll get random dips.

 

[offshore]

I did. Rough estimates.

Night/rain racing - Average 40fps

Rally - Average 55+fps

City 1 - Average 50+fps

City 2 - Average 50fps

Track 1 - Average 48+fps

Snow - Average 54fps+

Sixty frames per second is something we're really wanting to stick to, because otherwise, we can't call it a game -- or at least I wouldn't call it a video game.

So, not really impressive considering how important 60fps seems to be. At least when Turn 10 talk about 60fps frame rates, they deliver on it.

 

[Metalmurphy]

So, not really impressive considering how important 60fps seems to be. At least when Turn 10 talk about 60fps frame rates, they deliver on it.

There's framedrops in F4. By your standards they didn't deliver it either.

GT is only 60 when you're racing alone on a standard track. Even then you'll get random dips.

Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/v/nGXONhFOrkg&hl=en&autoplay=1&hd=1


And that's pre paches. 1.0 or 1.1

 

[nib95]

So, not really impressive considering how important 60fps seems to be. At least when Turn 10 talk about 60fps frame rates, they deliver on it.

With F3 yes. But you could see why based on the visuals, effects, physics and lighting which were often not in the same league as GT5. We'll have to wait for frame rate analysis's to see if F4 is any different now that they've put some extra emphasis on visuals.

A like for like frame rate analysis on the same track with similar cars plus GT5's 2.0 would be awesome. My guess is that they would have pretty much the same performance. Or at best negligible differences.

 

[RukusProvider]

There's framedrops in F4. By your standards they didn't deliver it either.




Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/v/nGXONhFOrkg&hl=en&autoplay=1&hd=1


And that's pre paches. 1.0 or 1.1

You should have only showed the first few seconds and not the Suzuka footage if you wanted to prove a point. Clearly rounding up is a desired skill in GT land.

 

[jett]

Worst track as far as framerate goes, lots of cars on screen at full LOD (because of how close they are), + rain with lots of effects... You sure know how to pick them.


http://www.youtube.com/v/nGXONhFOrkg&hl=en&autoplay=1&hd=1

GT5 can't even keep 60fps in a simple course like that?

 

[Metalmurphy]

You should have only showed the first few seconds and not the Suzuka footage if you wanted to prove a point. Clearly rounding up is a desired skill in GT land.

Wth are you talking about?

It's at 60fps at Suzuka most of the time as well.

GT5 can't even keep 60fps in a simple course like that?

Not when there's 3+ cars at full LOD. That's when GT5 starts to drop.

 

[wabo]

You should have only showed the first few seconds and not the Suzuka footage if you wanted to prove a point. Clearly rounding up is a desired skill in GT land.

Every time someone quotes Lens of Truth a puppy dies miserably. Don't kill puppies.

 

[KKRT00]

You seem to keep implying that the frame rate drops are barely noticeable: they are clearly noticeable.

SSR5 never runs at 60fps, nor does Daytona with a full field in cockpit view. The bottom line is that the frame rate is awful, and for a developer that has consistently said that 60fps is one of the most important things, GT5's performance was unacceptable.

I can't speak for Spec II as I haven't played it yet.

SSR 5? You meant probably SSR 7, still its because of reflections, shaders and particle effects, the most stressful situation for RSX.
And i said before that except situation with more than 6 cars on screen game runs smoothly and PD had to work with RSX and we know how it performs. In normal racing conditions game is smooth.
Do i think they were overambitious with rendering in this game? Yes i am, but i'm happy for it, because it will pay off in next GT on PS4.

Of course he's trolling, he doesn't have your opinion on a game.

I didnt know that facts are opinions now.
GT uses AF, uses good AA, shimmering is unavoidable and textures talk is pure bias, because most of Standards look great and You dont even notice worse textures when racing, because they are too far.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Every time someone quotes Lens of Truth a puppy dies miserably. Don't kill puppies.

Who cares where it's from? There's no subjective opinions in a freaking framerate analysis video.

 

[nib95]

GT5 can't even keep 60fps in a simple course like that?

I don't think the course really even makes much of the difference. It seems to be more reliant on the number of cars on screen or the closeness of the LOD.

 

[Niks]

Its... beautiful.

 

[JWong]

So, not really impressive considering how important 60fps seems to be. At least when Turn 10 talk about 60fps frame rates, they deliver on it.

Because they didn't deliver on 3 of the following.

 

[wabo]

Who cares where it's from? There's no subjective opinions in a freaking framerate analysis video.

It matters when analysis are made under non-ideal situations, understanding non-ideal in the way "GT5 is showing 5 cars while FM4 is showing 1", for example.

 

[infinityBCRT]

They imported all the GT4 and PSP cars, whether there's a premium version or not. But it's the first time I've heard about a standard F2007 in GT5.

Can't believe that PD didn't make it so that you get the Premium version of the PSP cars if they exist.

 

[regs]

LOL so I just read the last page of this thinking it was the Forza 4 thread and I was just thinking to myself, man a lot of people are going to get banned haha

 

[phosphor112]

Again, they seemed to have achieved it in NFS:HP. The fact that Turn10 needs the game to run at 60fps is probably the reason why they went with the skybox HDRI approach.

My question is whether or not they are just using a series of cube maps or if they are, in real time, re-rendering each cube map for each frame... That's what I want to know... Need more dev powerpoints up in this bitch.

 

[Metalmurphy]

It matters when analysis are made under non-ideal situations, understanding non-ideal in the way "GT5 is showing 5 cars while FM4 is showing 1", for example.

Who cares? No one was focusing on the comparison with Forza 3 (not 4). All we were doing was analyzing the GT5 framerate alone.


And to RukusProvider, On suzuka:
1m03s'871 - Constant 60fps
1m31s'953 - 50-60fps (alot of it was 55+)
0m15s'222 - 40-50fps (40-45 / 45-50 split was about even)

 

[kazinova]

Jokes on GT fanboys: they're stuck playing GT5. Forza 4 has got my girlfriend playing a simulation racer and enjoying it. Another win.

 

[phosphor112]

Its... beautiful.

This is the worst picture I've seen from FM4 yet. Pick ANY other one and I'll say it looks a lot better.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Jokes on GT fanboys: they're stuck playing GT5. Forza 4 has got my girlfriend playing a simulation racer and enjoying it. Another win.

Good for her.

 

[Metalmurphy]

This is the worst picture I've seen from FM4 yet. Pick ANY other one and I'll say it looks a lot better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

 

[RukusProvider]

Wth are you talking about?

It's at 60fps at Suzuka most of the time as well.




Not when there's 3+ cars at full LOD. That's when GT5 starts to drop.

So from the 130R to the middle of the esses is 60fps in your eyes? or are we not counting that part of the track now?

How dare there be 3+ cars on the track at one time!

60fps is just that. 60fps. Not 40+, not 50+, not 55+ And this isn't taking into account the tearing.

 

[Metalmurphy]

So from the 130R to the middle of the esses is 60fps in your eyes? or are we not counting that part of the track now?

How dare there be 3+ cars on the track at one time!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31782340&postcount=14678

 

[Loudninja]

What about some new tearing, shadow, and framerate analysis?

 

[Metalmurphy]

What about some new tearing, shadow, and framerate analysis?

Spam Digital Foundry twitter, maybe they'll listen.

 

[JWong]

Jokes on GT fanboys: they're stuck playing GT5. Forza 4 has got my girlfriend playing a simulation racer and enjoying it. Another win.

We need pics of your girlfriend or it didn't happen.

 

[phosphor112]

We need pics of your girlfriend or it didn't happen.

She looks like a cartoon. It's ok though, she runs at 60fps!

 

[Death Dealer]

Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/v/nGXONhFOrkg&hl=en&autoplay=1&hd=1


And that's pre paches. 1.0 or 1.1

Frame rate looks almost identical. But GT5 has more tearing. When I play, I only notice it on a few of the city tracks, on particular fast corners, where the background is near and panning rapidly.

That video is illuminating. The lighting is more dynamic and real looking in GT5. There doesn't appear to be dust trails in Forza 3. And the smoke seems less dense than GT5's burnout smoke, but maybe I didn't see the best example of what Forza 3 can do. I like the background scenery of Forza 3. The mountains and distant horizons of Turn 10's tracks are usually more detailed than GT5's, barring a few obvious exceptions like Eiger Norwand. How much has Forza 4 stepped it up ? I wonder if PD could do a GT 5 "HD" for PS4 just to get something out at launch ?

 

[phosphor112]

Frame rate looks almost identical. But GT5 has more tearing. When I play, I only notice it on a few of the city tracks, on particular fast corners, where the background is near and panning rapidly.

That video is illuminating. The lighting is more dynamic and real looking in GT5. There doesn't appear to be dust trails in Forza 3. And the smoke seems less dense than GT5's burnout smoke, but maybe I didn't see the best example of what Forza 3 can do. I like the background scenery of Forza 3. The mountains and distant horizons of Turn 10's tracks are usually more detailed than GT5's, barring a few obvious exceptions like Eiger Norwand. How much has Forza 4 stepped it up ? I wonder if PD could do a GT 5 "HD" for PS4 just to get something out at launch ?

The lighting in FM3 is 100% baked. If you make your car fly up, and land in a shadow that is casted on the track, even though you are higher up than the object casting the shadow, the shadow is rendered onto your car.

 

[Yoritomo]

She looks like a cartoon. It's ok though, she runs at 60fps!

I'd rather bang a 7 that knows how to fuck than a 10 that lays there like a dead fish.

 

[offshore]

Because they didn't deliver on 3 of the following.

Is that really a tick in the "win" column for GT5, though? Wipers tear massively, rain looks terrible and snow looks even worse. Don't get me wrong, I've said plenty of times that I agree that next gen, PD's visual effects [should] look incredible, but I'm not sure that on PS3 and GT5 it's something to say "Look! We included all these effects! Sure, it impacts performance and they look terrible, but ignore that..."

Of the effects, only night racing looks incredible (and it really does). I'm sure they could have saved rain/snow for next gen when they could have delivered them as they would have intended, without introducing new problems i.e. constant wiper tearing. Why the wipers to tear like they do I've not seen any explanation as they seem to tear individually. Still distracting as hell though.

 

[Arklite]

Is that really a tick in the "win" column for GT5, though?

Weather does work, and it does add to the driving experience, especially when racing through the rally tracks with five cars in front throwing snow everywhere. GT5 tears with or without weather anyways, so might as well have it.

 

[spwolf]

Is that really a tick in the "win" column for GT5, though? Wipers tear massively, rain looks terrible and snow looks even worse. Don't get me wrong, I've said plenty of times that I agree that next gen, PD's visual effects [should] look incredible, but I'm not sure that on PS3 and GT5 it's something to say "Look! We included all these effects! Sure, it impacts performance and they look terrible, but ignore that..."

Of the effects, only night racing looks incredible (and it really does). I'm sure they could have saved rain/snow for next gen when they could have delivered them as they would have intended, without introducing new problems i.e. constant wiper tearing. Why the wipers to tear like they do I've not seen any explanation as they seem to tear individually. Still distracting as hell though.

obviously night, dirt or weather dont matter anymore.

 

[Yoritomo]

I only spent about 2 hours having more fun in GT5 than I've had in Forza 4.

Merc Nurburgring challenge. As far as I'm concerned everything else about the game is worse.

It might have a higher high, but that higher high didn't last long enough for me to keep playing after I'd gotten gold in everything. (well everything up to level 31 a spec.)

 

[planar1280]

Played both

GT5 wins in lighting
GT5 wins in quality of premium cars
GT5 wins in car mechanics options


Forza wins in IQ/Performance ratio
Forza wins in overall quality of all cars
Forza wins in Menu/Layout
Forza wins in car handling and ease of tuneup

 

[nib95]

Played both

GT5 wins in lighting
GT5 wins in quality of premium cars


Forza wins in IQ/Performance ratio
Forza wins in overall quality of all cars
Forza wins in Menu/Layout

Think you're missing out on the most important aspect of these games no?

How about you know...

Driving/racing physics and realism?

 

[flyinpiranha]

I'd rather bang a 7 that knows how to fuck than a 10 that lays there like a dead fish.

haha! That sums up my position pretty well right there.

Think you're missing out on the most important aspect of these games no?

How about you know...

Driving/racing physics and realism?

Driving? Both are awesome, GT5 edges out.
Racing? Both are awesome, but I have to hand it to Forza because you know, Framerate and screen tears can take away from that "racing" feel.
Realism? GT5 looks the best when at its best, but it's not at its best all the time. And with Forza 4, I'm having a blast with the simulation steering.

I've played them all, GT5 to level 30+, Forza 3 twice to level 40+ and now Forza 4 (currently lvl 12 lol) so I'm speaking from what I see and feel when I'm playing the game. I have a strange feeling a lot of the people on either side of this thread have not played both extensively.

 

[offshore]

obviously night, dirt or weather dont matter anymore.

Oh I'm sorry wolf, I didn't realise windscreen wipers were supposed to constantly tear when you drive in the rain in real life. I don't know what you bring up dirt for, rallying in GT is terrible, always has been. This is not something new. As for night, did you not read the post?

 

[Polyphony]

GT5 might tear and drop frames every now and then, but I do find that the IQ is amazing. Playing in 1280x1080 with 2x AA and TAA disabled, you have to look hard to find the jaggies. Constant 60 fps with 0% tearing in optimized GT6 plz!