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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35
- Thread starter bishoptl
- Start date
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Haven't even mentioned Shift once but calling it an arcade game? lol...
I have been driving full sized cars to their limit since I was 12 years old (2 years before I even became a gamer many many more before I even started played racing games) and Forza handles very much like how I would expect. From the slight lean and 4 wheel drift you get in more classic chassis to the much more rock steadiness of more modern cars despite weighing more. The beautiful on the limit slip you get when you're tyres are on the very edge of losing traction.
In reality, high powered rear drive cars do not just go in straight lines when launching with wheelspin.
In reality front wheel drive cars don't just go straight under any and all forms of acceleration.
In reality overwhelming the front tyres makes the car plough forward instead of maintaining cornering speeds.
In reality lowering unsprung weight greatly effects suspension performance.
I could go on and on and on about areas GT5 completely fails to come close to any sort of reality.
Oh look, that video where he corrects the slide in Forza but turns into it in GT and regardless of that fact, hitting the grass doesn't instantly send you into an uncontrollable death spin in real life.
With assists on, yea, Forza does. Try turning them off.
Chance of you even understanding what's happening in that video, nil next to none.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
While you are at it, how many achievements have GT fans racked up on Forza?
There was a steering wheel glitch in Forza 4 that was fixed in a title update.
If you're going to join this discussion at least know what you're talking about.
This was a steering glitch that was fixed in a title update and is no longer in Forza 4...
ohhh... ohhh. ok then.
phosphor112
Banned
GT lacks any "torque" effects, which sucks ass.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Proves nothing but a brief visual disconnect between the physics model and the graphics engine.
It happens occasionally on replays but can't be detected whilst driving.
brotkasten
Member
I'm talking about priorities. The game has, what? 50+ Skylines? Premium, standard, modified, stock. What on earth makes the nth version of the R32, R33, R34 or R35 so much more special than other iconic Japanese cars like the S30, AE86 or Mark IV?
Instead we got
in all its glory detail.
Because, yeah! Finally more tuned Skylines!
e: Hell, out of all Skylines in the game, why on earth isn't the 2000GT-R a premium model?
Which makes the idea of Forza being easy to drive funny because the torque in Forza is what will take you out the quickest if you're not careful.
I'm talking about priorities. The game has, what? 50+ Skylines? Premium, standard, modified, stock. What on earth makes the nth version of the R32, R33, R34 or R35 so much more special than other iconic Japanese cars like the S30, AE86 or Mark IV?
Instead we got
in all its glory detail.
Because, yeah! Finally more tuned Skylines!
Although I agree, those skylines look hot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fS2j3sfTAo
I love the SuperGT Skyline though sounds, drives and looks like the devil.
phosphor112
Banned
I stand corrected then.
Yes! It's a better game than Forza 4 by far.
phosphor112
Banned
Keep in mind PD has an exclusive partnership with Nissan... the GT Academy is for the Nissan team and all new Nissan cars gets thrown at PD for imaging. It's free advertising for Nissan, free cars for PD.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm fucking tired of these Nissan's, but they do get them for "free." So it's hard to hate on them... If they don't show a SIGNIFICANT increase in western cars in GT6 I'll be legit upset.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
That's no excuse for, what is it? 61% of the entire car list originating from Japan alone?
I'd be willing to push that up over 70% actually but in their defense Forza also used to be quite Asian biased too. Forza used to have a lot more Japanese tuners like GT5 does in it's car list but they've been slowing going away in each game.
gutterboy44
Member
Ok first off, simply because Forza is monitoring and displaying all of those data points on your screen doesn't mean they are being rendered accurately or affecting the handling model in a meaningful way. You can make a racing sim that displays real time moisture droplets coming out of the exhaust pipe but that doesn't mean the engine power response is dynamically adjusting to humidity and barometric pressure let alone actually changes the end product of the driving experience. You are assuming a lot by just seeing those numbers on the screen. I was really impressed when I first saw that real time overlay in Forza 4, but the more I drove the cars I realized the numbers pretty much meant little to the final feel. The majority of those numbers are window dressing in my opinion. If you want to see a company who actual lives and dies by those numbers and makes a meaningful tire model with precise tire pressures, wall flex, unsprung weight, etc, but doesn't put them on your screen like minority report, check out iRacing.
You are right about the torque steer, I would like that modeled in GT games, and their drive train modeling in general is kind of crap. But that is one aspect of the drive train, not the entirety of the "physics." It doesn't matter how much is being rendered if it isn't all being rendered accurately. Not that GT5 is necessarily always more accurate and it is certainly not the most accurate, but the end result of whatever data points Forza is trying to convince you it is accurately modeling does not deliver with the end product of their feel of their driving model, physics, whatever you want to call the overall end product of all the systems working together. I do credit Forza for at least having the ambition to put those numbers out there with the intention to maybe someday accurately model them in a meaningful way. I still don't get any feedback from the car with half of the GT5 part upgrades that have been the same since GT1.
To give an example of the gulf in feel between the two games, driving a production car, especially 80's era or earlier vehicles in Forza and the feeling of slip angles, TTO and TBO is just not there at all, which one would assume it should if it really was accurately rendering all of those data points.
Take the Ferrari 512BB stock out in GT5 and then something like the 365 GTB4 stock in Forza. It won't be a 1:1 comparison but the driving feel I am describing should be obtainable with any of the older, larger slip angle cars. I just happen to love Ferrari's so might as well use those. I never get that feeling in Forza where I am able to get my car into that perfect slip angle and steer with my feet more than my hands. I always ended up feeling I was fighting against the game, like it wanted to get me out of that sublime slid. Kind of the same way high power, high aero down force cars in GT games still feel too sticky/grippy and "on rails". They toned it down a lot for GT5, but it is still there.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
SolidSnakex
Member
That doesn't have anything to do with priorities. In those cases they're taking an existing premium and adding body mods to it. That isn't going to take them a lot of time in comparison to building a new car from the ground up.
With that said, Kaz has acknowledged that it's a problem. Here's what he said
They'll never get this. Same reason they think having standard cars took away from the premium cars in a meaningful way. They just have no idea how development works.
phosphor112
Banned
I don't see why people don't understand basically this whole post. It's not how it's done, as long as it is as close to "correct" as possible.
Of course, not doing it 100% accurately or by doing work around can create problems in different situations, but overall GT is on top. Even with the shitty tire physics and even without the torque steering/launching.
Description in the video: "forza4 is a great game, the best sim on the consoles"
Ouch.
phosphor112
Banned
I didn't know if he was being sarcastic or not, he's got some negative videos against' GT. Probably being impartial on the criticism but showing his preference of Forza?
EDIT: Looking at his page. Vast majority of his stuff is Forza stuff. He clearly likes the game, it wasn't sarcasm.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
This post, it's... it's almost too much.
I was going to stop here but I wanted more laughter.
Isn't GT the game that is continually championed because of it's apparent perfectionist attention to meaningless details?
You're assuming I'm assuming.
You cearly didn't play much Forza than.
An opinion that contradicts fact
Every number displayed in the telemetry (that I didn't even mention and was never ever refering too by the way) is taken directly from the physics engine. That is where those numbers and details come from.
It is entirely physics based. You can't just tell a simulator "Hey, have torque steer!". It has to come from everything in the physics model working together otherwise it won't be anywhere near realistic and FM4 absolutely nails it.
Only one of the 2 games that are the subject of this thread as direct tyre data from pirelli while the other just uses different grades of tyres as simple grip modifiers.
spoken exactly like someone who hasn't even played Forza
TTO and TBO? I have no idea what you're trying to say. You sound like you're reading from the GT user manual. If you're talking about how old cars lean and four wheel drift, Forza absolutely nails that.
Than you really haven't even played FM4 because I do it all the time in older cars with larger sidewall tyres and more primitive suspension systems.
I was going to stop here but I wanted more laughter.
Isn't GT the game that is continually championed because of it's apparent perfectionist attention to meaningless details?
You're assuming I'm assuming.
You cearly didn't play much Forza than.
An opinion that contradicts fact
Every number displayed in the telemetry (that I didn't even mention and was never ever refering too by the way) is taken directly from the physics engine. That is where those numbers and details come from.
It is entirely physics based. You can't just tell a simulator "Hey, have torque steer!". It has to come from everything in the physics model working together otherwise it won't be anywhere near realistic and FM4 absolutely nails it.
Only one of the 2 games that are the subject of this thread as direct tyre data from pirelli while the other just uses different grades of tyres as simple grip modifiers.
spoken exactly like someone who hasn't even played Forza
You're still assuming those numbers are drempt up and have no bearing on the actual physics.
TTO and TBO? I have no idea what you're trying to say. You sound like you're reading from the GT user manual. If you're talking about how old cars lean and four wheel drift, Forza absolutely nails that.
Than you really haven't even played FM4 because I do it all the time in older cars with larger sidewall tyres and more primitive suspension systems.
Yeah, that's why all the real life racing teams are throwing away their 40 million dollars simulators to play GT5 instead.
How old are you, BTW?
This is false all data that is shown in real time in telemetry is actually being experienced by the car. You can tell by the fact that you can feel the car being affected by it. In fact after making a comment like that it's hard to believe that you've ever even played Forza.
Forza built their engine with Pirelli, I'd say Pirelli lives and dies on tires also.
So because Forza shows you the data in real time it is fake? I don't understand this logic, please show proof and sources.
Also it's unfair to compare iRacing to Forza/GranTurismo for one Forza and Gran Turismo feature hundreds upon hundreds of cars including every day cars on street tires(which are not seen in iRacing.).
Torque steer is very important in order to create a realistic physics engine.
Dude where is your proof and sources that Forza is not accurately modeling their physics?
Read this:
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/underthehood2
Scroll down to Tires.
Give me a break your honestly saying that even though GT5's physics engine is missing fundamental components in creating a realistic simulation on top of having a slower physics engine altogether that it's somehow better?
Really?
Other than feeling more fluid and feeling better show me what features GT5 physic's engine has that Forza's is lacking?
Same, get into a Shelby Cobra 427 and you'll feel nothing but it.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Sure. Tire physics and what happens when you hit the pedal is an merely detail.
The important is the fake body roll and making the game harder with unreal grip to fits the "sim" category.
Pretty much, bottom-line don't sit here trying to put GT5's physics engine on a pedestal it can't reach by itself. Torque steer is fundamental for realistically calculating how high power FWD and RWD cars handle under acceleration...
AbandonedTrolley
Member
It's time for the 3pm group hug!
phosphor112
Banned
I'd like to see how you know that.
Tanner Foust and Adrian fucking Newey vouched for the game. Of course it's not perfect, but surely Sony moneyhatted the shit out of these guys... like they do with other companies... right?
You can import the telemetry on your car into the game and it'll replay exactly correct in the game. You can't tell me that they slapped shit together and it happens to work out.
There are plenty of racers that vouched for Forza 4 too you know... they are racing games throwing around money for advertisement...
http://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-US/news/WIR_7-8
Tanner Foust vouches for monster energy drink also I heard....
Real race car drivers don't practice using games like GT5 or Forza......
Let me get this straight... a simulation game will correctly simulate telemetry put into it?
Wow that's amazing!
I just hope that telemetry doesn't have any multi-layered tire heat data, tire flex data or torque steer data because it's not really going to turn out great in a simulator that doesn't even simulate it...
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
It's time for the 3pm group hug!
Thanks!
gutterboy44
Member
Again, you seem to think just because their engine is generating these numbers, they effect the end result at all. There is absolutely nothing I have experienced while playing Forza 4 that even remotely hinted at a physics engine sophisticated enough to meaningfully render all of that data in the only thing that matters, the actual feel of the car! I don't see how you can't understand the difference between generating numbers on the screen and what the cars actually feel like.
Sure you can, and I would bet the house on it that both games cut corners on the physics engines in different ways. It is why every racing sim doesn't feel exactly the same. If it was as easy as 100% pure physics, it would be down to computational power alone at this point, not design teams. We aren't there yet, and I hate to break it to you, Forza 4 is not the cutting edge of pure physics driven racing simulations, and neither is GT5. Buy yeah, look at all of those numbers on the screen!
Yeah and GT live records all of their sounds direct from all of the cars but we all know how that turned out. Once again, all that matters in the end product. It makes nice press releases, but again, the feel is not there.
Never said they are dreamt up, simply that all of the means they are showing off, do not achieve the ends they hoped for.
Hahah seriously? You are throwing out the fidelity of tire pressures, unsprung weight and how amazing it feels to "drive" those numbers in Forza 4 but you don't know what TTO and TBO is? I have a feeling you have never played either game with a wheel all of a sudden, which would explain a lot.
I learned about TTO and TBO, on the track at Watkins Glen, in actual cars, in real life, where I got my SCCAA license in addition to doing a Skippy 3 day racing school back in 2001. Fuck off with your condescending remarks.
Never said you couldn't drift them, just that it never felt remotely right in Forza.
Seriously, I think you just need to round out your knowledge of driving in general before you have a data-gasm about Forza's physics engine. Stop humiliating yourself with ,"omg all the lolz" posts. You make yourself seem petty and ignorant.
Edit: Ugh, seems we have some reading comprehension issues. Neither Forza or GT have top of the line physics engines. Both bite off more they can chew. GT says, hey look at all this bullshit over here. Forza says, ohh look at all this real time data over here! My point being it is all about the end in addition to the means. Driving cars in GT5 feels better than Forza 4. I don't give a fuck about the fidelity of the physics if you can't ever experince it in a meaningful way aka driving the cars in the game! Forza can have brunch with Pirelli every sunday for the next decade, I still don't get the end result of all of their work in Forza. The same way I don't know how GT can claim accurate sound recording every time and we get the Dyson 500.
Edit2: Drifting is not the same as a slip angle for the record. I don't "drift" old cars. I have fun with their larger slip angles. But you are right, it is more like drifting in Forza.
I can't even start to write anything comprehensive regarding physics and its correlation to steering wheels and force feedback effects because of:
1. nobody would even give a damn about that effort
2. many (unfortunately) would not know about what I am writing
3. it would just been rammed with other posts arguing about same things for 5 years now
So I will just copy/paste some links for everybody interested and be available for any discussion on that behalf. All of them are pretty lengthy reads but the subject is complicated. And I would really love to move this discussion to more mature and such and to talk about really important things regarding "simulations" - and that is physics and support for FFB peripherals.
About physics and such regarding GT5 and Forza
About the X360 issues with handling force feedback wheels (2009 thread related to Forza 3)
About X360/Forza issues regarding HID/XID
About Microsoft policy regarding HID/XID devices
About lots of similar subjects
1. nobody would even give a damn about that effort
2. many (unfortunately) would not know about what I am writing
3. it would just been rammed with other posts arguing about same things for 5 years now
So I will just copy/paste some links for everybody interested and be available for any discussion on that behalf. All of them are pretty lengthy reads but the subject is complicated. And I would really love to move this discussion to more mature and such and to talk about really important things regarding "simulations" - and that is physics and support for FFB peripherals.
About physics and such regarding GT5 and Forza
About the X360 issues with handling force feedback wheels (2009 thread related to Forza 3)
About X360/Forza issues regarding HID/XID
About Microsoft policy regarding HID/XID devices
About lots of similar subjects
Red Chocobo
Banned
phosphor112
Banned
Yes, they use iRacing or an in-house engine.
When you don't have access to either, this is what you get.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31bH2t2X95g
We don't know how well the tire heat data is simulated in GT, or if there is in fact NO tire flex data, because the tire clearly flexes in the game, it just doesn't do it graphically. It might not do it as well as Forza, but hell, you can't right it off just because they don't show it graphically.
Just to know if you're a child or childish.
Red Chocobo
Banned
gundamkyoukai
Member
phosphor112
Banned
These aren't even remotely similar. First of all, that hockenheim on Forza is just way off, secondly the cars in Forza aren't reacting in any way remotely similar to the ones in real life.
Did you even watch those videos before you linked them? Jesus, man.
You aren't doing yourself or Forza any favors
Dude really?
Neither GT4 or Forza 4 are going to act like their real life counter parts, in reality neither of them are even close.
Coming from you that means little to nothing.
You guys are clearly biased against Forza to begin with so what's the point in even trying?
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Another quality laugh.
I can easily feel the car hit the bump stops. I can feel the tyres moving on the rims. I can feel the car losing grip. I can feel when the tyres are cold and hot, under and over pressured. I can feel the lack of grip when the camber isn't set correctly. I can see the difference after tuning the gears to match the power and torque curves.
Every single one of those things is shown in the telemetry.
Never said Forza was on the cutting edge of physics (well, it is close with tyre physics) but it's definitely there in terms of consoles.
GT recorded their cars without load on the system and simply placed similar sounds on other cars. That's why they are so extremely bad.
You're saying the numbers mean nothing (which is completely incorrect) which might as well translate into "drempt up"
Because knowning random acronyms totally means everything!
And you mustn't have learned how to deal with understeer, torque steer, driveline friction and many other things at watkins glen to think GT5 is somehow realistic.
You must have a very special copy of Forza 4 than.
I don't think anyone has claimed Forza is top of the line (many have claimed such a ludicrous thing of GT5 however) but Forza is simply higher up the food chain than GT5.
Massively differing fields of view completely skew these comparisons.
Add to that the whole "lack of fear" thing to the gameplay videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgxcHU1nGBQ
Standard FoV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZmfVZwhrNI
Tighter FoV.
Old FM2 videos but the difference should be obvious.
gutterboy44
Member
Ok, comments like these are the most confusing to me. You are saying that two of the most basic driving concepts after learning about under and over steer, trailing throttle over steer (TTO), and trailing brake over steer (TBO) are some how exotic acronyms but you are talking about tire roll across rims, bump stops, "drive line friction", tire pressures, etc. You talk about racing like a press release power point presentation. Unless you are explicitly talking about fine tuning a setup of a car for a specific track, the terms in which you describe your driving experiences in Forza 4 are bizzare and more, "from the manual" than anything I have said or would ever say.
I never raced FWD cars, so I never had to deal with torque steer much. The effects on RWD cars is negligible. I even complimented Forza on taking the time to model it.
A linear change of "hot" and "cold" tires is incredibly easy to convey in games, and both games do it. Doing it well, and modeling tire overheating, tread wear, multiple temps across the tread is insanely hard to do and every racing sim out there is trying in their own way to do it best. Again, I complimented Forza for at least showing the drivers these numbers, GT there are temps, but all we get visually is a color chart. However, my main thrust of this argument is also taking this in to account and determining how this feels to you the gamer/driver when you play the game. You can also set camber wrong in GT5 and burn up your tires or gain or lose grip. Same with gearing, torque curves and all of these other points you make. They are just basic car setup adjustments, nothing that amazing. I don't think either game does a great job with them. I have to make pretty gross adjustments in both to get a decent amount of in game feed back. Let's not even get into the placebo effects of tweaking setups, something that is unavoidable in life, let alone racing sims.
Hockenheim is off? have you ever played FM4? lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eJuXG769qM
You need to read the videos descriptions better. In the video you post:
Means the car gear ratio is "off".. (seems something habitual in GT5)
the track is "off".. but just the strips.
btw, laguna in GT5 looks a bit flat in the video?
phosphor112
Banned
I, uh, fucking what? I'm not talking about FoV, I'm not talking bout sense of speed, I'm talking about how none of those videos presented the same racing lines, the suspensions were fucking balls when watching that Top Gear one. The Forza driver took a fucking super inside racing line at Hammerhead in the choppiest manner but still managed to reach the finish line at the same time as her.
The second video that he posted was of an absolute shit hockenheim comparison, because the track is probably on par with Forza's Nurburgring quality. Fucking straights everywhere and then a random turn or two that compensates the lack of turns in the rest of the fucking track.
3rd video is the same shit because it's the same track. Dude is slamming on the gas in forza getting to the point where he's several seconds ahead. This isn't a "fear" thing. If it was, you'd still see similar times but probably more squirley driving coming from the Forza guy because technically, he's pushing the car harder, no?