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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

P

phosphor112

Banned
les papillons sexuels said:
the forza and real world line up, the gt one doesn't... Look at how the car is intering the corner, the left wheel is already on the apex, yet the GT one has a closer approach and is much further off (there's literally no grade in the gt pic).
Click to expand...

None of them have hit the apex yet. Yes, the GT's apex is closer, but the drop is far more closer to the one in iRacing.
 
A

Arucardo

Member
Haha jeez, there's really no way to accurately determine which is right when all three clips have a different angle and most likely different FoVs.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Have the GT devout responded to this?

Snubbers said:
I might as well join in since I play both (and enjoy both).

Graphics
GT5 has the highest highs and the lowest lows for me.. the odd fleeting seconds of brilliance is offset by some pretty ropey textures and lack of track/scenery detail.. However that's all forgiveable, it's the screen tearing and obvious graphics over a rock solid 60fps that is the nail in the coffin for me
FM4 suffers from dropping LOD and AA to maintain a steady 60fps and it's graphical bar is defintely placed much lower then GT5 for spot comparison, however it seems that rather then blow the graphics budget on the cars, they seem to have spread it around, so tracks/scenery seem more often then not really well balanced for a good effect.
I really find the AA poor in FM4 when in most races, it's so much cleaner when hotlapping, and whilst I commend them for putting framerate ahead of AA, I would gladly sacrifice other graphical things to maintain 4xMSAA.

Physics
GT5 has a decent enough set of high level physics, by which I mean the general feel of the car is good, and the track interaction/feedback is excellent, it's certainly enough to fool most into thinking it's top notch. Where it falls down for me is that it lacks some obvious drivetrain/tyre physics that actually detract massively from the actual driving. For example, wheel spin away in an FWD or RWD car and it just tracks perfectly.. Then you realise that actually the FFB doesn't seem to have much coming from the actual tyres, the feeling of grip/slip in FWD cars is rather poor, and clearly you can tell by the tuning options that tyre deformation, pressure, width, etc are just rather absent. I love casually driving in GT5, but I hate hotlapping because when you want the feedback of what the tyres are doing in relation to the tyre physics, it's rather vacant
Forza is the other way around almost, it has quite indepth tyre physics, pressure, width, height etc are all there, and the grip/slip and torque behaviour is all there in the feedback making it great for hotlapping (for me at least). Where it falls down is that the high level general feel is decent enough and has improved in each iteration, but it's still not quite at GT5's level. And of course, the 'steering aids' and other little tweaks are quite understandable and rather overplayed IMO, but I can't figure out why they don't just mask them (as I suspect similar tweaks are in GT).

Sound
GT5 has a few decent sounding cars, but overall, Forza just has decent audio 90% of the time, it's much more consistent.. I can honestly say that as much as I like GT, the number of vacuum cleaners employed in the majority of cars is terrible.

Gameplay/Presentation
Another area FM has the more consistent and cohesive menu/gameplay by a country mile.. But it's career is really 1 dimensional.. very little variety and what variety there is proves to be really limited. GT has the poorest menu system by a mile, but it has more variety which is almost offset by the pointless game mechanics of servicing and having to earn paint chips..

Customisation/Tuning
GT is OK, but Forza obviously has made the most progress in this field (and probably explains some graphics issues), the ability to make your car your own is great, the first thing I do with a car is slap on personalised plates and make a car my own... in GT, the drastic lack of customisation keeps the game at a distance, I don't feel like I 'own' the cars in the same way.

Oddly, I would say that on balance, both are great games, and I stick by addage that GT has the highest highs and lowest lows with Forza being far more consistent in all areas which makes it IMO the better game, which is reflected by the vast majority of reviews, so I see no reason to post a million images and claim that somehow that negates the rest of the games foibles...
Click to expand...
 
S

shinnn

Member
funny how phosphor missed this

laguna_corkscrew4pusr.jpg


Can the camera position explain this?



Both games with the same view. GT5 car still falling in an strange way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslCZaCNQ1k

Metalmurphy said:
FoV distorts distances and stuff like that, PoV does not.
Click to expand...
Both changes the perception. That was the point.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Arucardo said:
To be fair PGR is almost GRID levels of bad with a wheel. Awesome series with a gamepad though.
Click to expand...

Just like GRID, PGR isn't really a simcade either. Though GRID (IMO) is just all around trash.

I fucking love PGR. I want to play 5... they'll have to show it this year.

shinnn said:
funny how phosphor missed this

laguna_corkscrew4pusr.jpg


Can the camera position explain this?



Both games with the same view. GT5 car still falling in an strange way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslCZaCNQ1k


Both changes the perception. That was the point.
Click to expand...

imgur.com

I can't see abload images.

oneida said:
Have the GT devout responded to this?
Click to expand...

Yes. It's similar to gutterboys response several pages back. Both were very impartial and easy to get behind.

I agree with most of it, but I'd rather have solid FPS over 4xMSAA.
 
S

seattle6418

Member
gutterboy44 said:
No cause the majority if his points are agreed and well worn and the only one that matters, physics he seems to have a preference opinion over anything objective like the FFB articles Amar had posted
Click to expand...

Not only that, but the physics talk here, for the most part, is being done by players that don´t know shit or are just shit drivers, because some of the claims are batshit insane.

It´s not wrong to compare laptimes to real life, we are already at that point where it starts to be how you are achieving real life laptimes.

GT5 physics are not as bad as some are making it if you are using the right comparisions. Tuning the cars is where they mess up things, and what they should focus on the next iteration. Cars are incredibly well balanced and realistic on their stock forms, which is why GT Academy is so good.

The problem is, people that play the game only to compare or to get 10 minutes of fun are usually driving the game with all the weak features turned on (crazy setups, R3 tires, ower upgrades), so they never know how good the physics engine can be because they are playing the game in an arcade fashion.

Every game can be exploited like this, even the so called pristine PC racing sims, you can bump and run, go to the grass and come back in games like iRacing or Rfacor. It doesn´t mean they don´t have good simulation qualities.

They only had time to calibrate the cars on GT to their stock conditions, and that´s where the critic should be. Even the sound turns into crap when you mod some of the models.

The tire physics are overblown because of two things: one, they are doing a lot of calculation, but they only show you color bars, which leads newer players to believe it´s a dumbed down approach; two, the main problem with the tire physics is how this relates to Force Feedback, and that´s something they don´t code well.

If you want to trash GT5 physics, at least do it right, talk about what´s really wrong, like Nascar physics. They got everything wrong with Nascar, and it made some iRacing players who tried hate, because they thought the whole game was like that.

The physics on stock conditions are comparable to any sim on the market, because even the PC ones have a huge list of shortcomings. However, physics and force feedback are two different things, and if you can´t understand how that translates on to the games, then i think you shouldn´t even be posting in a comparision thread.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Actually I just watched the comparison vids and the tracks look exactly the same, you guys are nuts.
 
M

Mascot

Member
Ref all this claptrap about physics, handling, tyre models, slip angles and fluffy dice: is it even possible to compare GT5 and Forza to each other, like-for-like? Can two identical car models be set up IDENTICALLY to each other in both games? I don't think I've ever driven a car in either game without slapping a tune on it, changing components or somehow tweaking it in some way (except maybe the races where you are given a car to drive, and can't alter anything) because, frankly, most 'standard' cars drive terribly in both games without some form of tuning.

Any two totally standard models of the same car from each game (totally stock and fresh out-of-the-box) are still probably set up totally differently to each other. And that's ignoring any assists that might be on/off or somewhere in between. Fascinating though the willy-waving contest has been over the last few years, aren't we always going to be comparing apples to oranges?

Edit: I see seattle6418 touched on similar themes (above) when I was putting this post together.
 
GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
oneida said:
Actually I just watched the comparison vids and the tracks look exactly the same, you guys are nuts.
Click to expand...

Racing fans (espacially sonsole simmers) are anal about details, besides we have a right to be anal about it. Racing Sims are tasked with recreating real life and that means they have to get everything right, no other genre faces such a task.
 
S

seattle6418

Member
Mascot said:
frankly, most 'standard' cars drive terribly in both games without some form of tuning.
Click to expand...

Yep, some cars are just bad in real life. A stock F40 on stock tires is not what you expect, but it is what it is. When you see the real life Tsukoba times you realise that the game is not lying to you, the car is just not that great in stock form.

Again, the "terribly" in most cases is realistic.

I´m not saying you did this, but we can´t compare real life physics and simulations on the same F40 if you are driving it with unreasonable setups (things you wouldn´t apply in real life), racing tires and racing gearbox, for example.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
GTP_Daverytimes said:
Racing fans (espacially sonsole simmers) are anal about details, besides we have a right to be anal about it. Racing Sims are tasked with recreating real life and that means they have to get everything right, no other genre faces such a task.
Click to expand...

Right I'm just saying that there are no differences.
 
S

shinnn

Member
Metalmurphy said:
Real life for comparison again:

asdkrd2b.png
Click to expand...
Again it don't explain the wrong things about the GT5 version. (assuming that is what you are trying to do). The car did not fall like in GT5 in any of the videos (iRacing, Forza or real-life). I don't see that strange deformation in the end of corkscrew in the GT5 version neither.
 
D

drugstore_cowboy

Member
seattle6418 said:
Not only that, but the physics talk here, for the most part, is being done by players that don´t know shit or are just shit drivers, because some of the claims are batshit insane.

It´s not wrong to compare laptimes to real life, we are already at that point where it starts to be how you are achieving real life laptimes.

GT5 physics are not as bad as some are making it if you are using the right comparisions. Tuning the cars is where they mess up things, and what they should focus on the next iteration. Cars are incredibly well balanced and realistic on their stock forms, which is why GT Academy is so good.

The problem is, people that play the game only to compare or to get 10 minutes of fun are usually driving the game with all the weak features turned on (crazy setups, R3 tires, ower upgrades), so they never know how good the physics engine can be because they are playing the game in an arcade fashion.

Every game can be exploited like this, even the so called pristine PC racing sims, you can bump and run, go to the grass and come back in games like iRacing or Rfacor. It doesn´t mean they don´t have good simulation qualities.

They only had time to calibrate the cars on GT to their stock conditions, and that´s where the critic should be. Even the sound turns into crap when you mod some of the models.

The tire physics are overblown because of two things: one, they are doing a lot of calculation, but they only show you color bars, which leads newer players to believe it´s a dumbed down approach; two, the main problem with the tire physics is how this relates to Force Feedback, and that´s something they don´t code well.

If you want to trash GT5 physics, at least do it right, talk about what´s really wrong, like Nascar physics. They got everything wrong with Nascar, and it made some iRacing players who tried hate, because they thought the whole game was like that.

The physics on stock conditions are comparable to any sim on the market, because even the PC ones have a huge list of shortcomings. However, physics and force feedback are two different things, and if you can´t understand how that translates on to the games, then i think you shouldn´t even be posting in a comparision thread.
Click to expand...

NASCAR physics?

Either NASCAR has a seperate physics model or everything you said was rubbish.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
Mascot said:
Ref all this claptrap about physics, handling, tyre models, slip angles and fluffy dice: is it even possible to compare GT5 and Forza to each other, like-for-like? Can two identical car models be set up IDENTICALLY to each other in both games? I don't think I've ever driven a car in either game without slapping a tune on it, changing components or somehow tweaking it in some way (except maybe the races where you are given a car to drive, and can't alter anything) because, frankly, most 'standard' cars drive terribly in both games without some form of tuning.
Click to expand...

I'd say the entire sim racing genre is a good example of how everyone can have a common goal but end up with something that's very different from one another. And that doesn't just apply to physics. Visuals, presentation etc. are all completely different across the board.
 
P

Psycho_Mantis

Banned
Have Turn 10 never visited Laguna Seca before. The race track does not reflect light like that lol, and their rumble strips are the wrong colour and their missing the red bits that shows the apex of each corner.
 
G

gutterboy44

Member
Well one of the most fascinating thing about dick waving in a thread like this is we have much more tangible real life counter parts to compare to, which is why the flames can burn for so long. Laguna Seca is Laguna Seca, a 2012 BMW M3 is a real car you can drive on that track in the game and in real life probably pretty easily. Moreover, the very nature of racing is a repeatable process. You are lapping a circuit in the same vehicle over and over, you are amassing numerous data points for comparison without even thinking about it. So when you are able to compare this to a real life experience or across multiple games on multiple platforms, with the same or similar cars on the same exact track, you have a tremendous foundation of objective and subjective data.

Sure you can compare the accuracy of gun models in BF3 v COD but most people aren't shooting them at human beings over and over in real life (hopefully) so they can't say much about how the game renders the experience of it. However, a lot of racing sim fans end up or simultaneous race cars in real life at some point. I know a ton of iRacers who use the game as a way to stay sharp or bring down lap times in between their track days. Even a buddy who now is on his third build of a race car and is wealthy enough to enjoy the luxury of consistent days at the track is resulting back to sim racers, specifically iRacing to hone his skill in the down time. Racing sims kept me sane from my 7 years in NYC where I barely ever got to drive, let alone a car on a road I want to be driving on.

Very few other gaming genres out there can claim that. It is dick waving, but racing sim dick waving has at least one ball in reality. Accuracy matters in sims, it is the entire fricking point.
 
B

BloodMoney

Banned
gutterboy44 said:
Well one of the most fascinating thing about dick waving in a thread like this is we have much more tangible real life counter parts to compare to, which is why the flames can burn for so long. Laguna Seca is Laguna Seca, a 2012 BMW M3 is a real car you can drive on that track in the game and in real life probably pretty easily. Moreover, the very nature of racing is a repeatable process. You are lapping a circuit in the same vehicle over and over, you are amassing numerous data points for comparison without even thinking about it. So when you are able to compare this to a real life experience or across multiple games on multiple platforms, with the same or similar cars on the same exact track, you have a tremendous foundation of objective and subjective data.

Sure you can compare the accuracy of gun models in BF3 v COD but most people aren't shooting them at human beings over and over in real life (hopefully) so they can't say much about how the game renders the experience of it. However, a lot of racing sim fans end up or simultaneous race cars in real life at some point. I know a ton of iRacers who use the game as a way to stay sharp or bring down lap times in between their track days. Even a buddy who now is on his third build of a race car and is wealthy enough to enjoy the luxury of consistent days at the track is resulting back to sim racers, specifically iRacing to hone his skill in the down time. Racing sims kept me sane from my 7 years in NYC where I barely ever got to drive, let alone a car on a road I want to be driving on.

Very few other gaming genres out there can claim that. It is dick waving, but racing sim dick waving has at least one ball in reality. Accuracy matters in sims, it is the entire fricking point.
Click to expand...

Great post. Reminds me why i roll my eyes every time Michael Pachter makes some snide comment about racing games/fans.
 
R

Risk Breaker

Member
SatansReverence said:
GT5 is just an unrealistically hard game to play.

In reality, high powered rear drive cars do not just go in straight lines when launching with wheelspin.

In reality overwhelming the front tyres makes the car plough forward instead of maintaining cornering speeds.

I could go on and on and on about areas GT5 completely fails to come close to any sort of reality.
Click to expand...

LOL, are you really saying that those things don't happen in GT5? That a Zonda R for example launches completely straight under full throttle? That understeer doesn't exist in GT (mega LOL) or that you can't lock up the front wheels (try racing without ABS for once)?

My God, you and FordGTDude are simply mindblowing.
 
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