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[babyghost853]

As for rewind. It is a genre defining feature.

I played the NFS Shift demo to see if I should rent it to tide me over until F3 hit, and I honestly couldn't play without rewind. I was halfway through the second lap, screwed up and got put into last place after being in first. Realizing I'd have to do the ENTIRE race over, I said screw it and played the F3 demo.

Rewind makes racing games fun and anybody that argues that is a complete moron. Full stop.

I will say that I like the graphics of Shift better than F3 surprisingly enough. Cockpit view was worse though.

So talking about GT5... if it doesn't have rewind then I honestly couldn't care less about it.

You have just described exactly what I hate about that "genre defining feature" and gamers in general today. Gone are the days of having to work hard to achive something you want, gone are the days of pratice makes perfect, gamers today just want to be spoon feed. Then the want to compare e penises like a bunch of morons when half of them couldn't score over 10,000 in pac-man.

/rant.

Spoiler

Please don't ban me bish, posting in risky thread, goes back to lurking.

 

[Omar Ismail]

I'm sorry but I really don't understand how accessibility for beginners equates to "more fun" I think you are confusing accessibility with enjoyment. Nothing is more fun and enjoying to me (and I am sure many others) than a challenging racing sim. The entire allure of GPL was its knife edge racing and brutal consequences.

The option for rewind, from the inclusive point is fine. Yes, it may be a beneficial tool for beginners but based on the intensity of this debate about physics, graphics, damge, etc, many fans of the racing sim genre enjoy the simulation challenge. So if the majority of players will neglect to even use this mechanic (an assumption, I know) how is it going to vastly contribute to the "fun" factor of the game.

I believe GRID had this same option and it didn't make the game anymore fun for me. Like I mentioned in a previous post, the mechanic certainly doesn't ruin the game or even hinder it, but it by no means enhances the fun of it either. I prefer to not have it, and I am not a moron for thinking so.

You obviously didn't understand my argument.

It's very simple.

Rewind makes the game more fun for some people. With absolutely NO negative consequence in enjoyment to anybody else. It's a big net positive.

That means Forza is a more fun game. And that means Forza is a better game.

It might not be a more fun/better game TO YOU. But IN GENERAL it is.

And if you don't want your games to be better IN GENERAL, then you're a moron.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Couldn't disagree with you more. I am so sick of this trend towards consequence free gaming. . . Racing sim and rewind have no business together. Moreover, why model all this damage and shit if you're just going to rewind as soon as any is inflicted?

The excitement of a pass is proportional to the risk taken. The rewind mechanic eliminates the risk, thus the excitement. I like to keep the sim in my racing sims.

I agree; We shouldn't be able to restart games if we crash. If the car is damaged; Wait days, weeks, months or so (Depending on your real world finances (Game should be linked/can poll data from your real world finances)) before being able to "repair", but not restart the race; only the next race - but not until the correct calendar date, which is fixed to the real world calender. If you die in the crash it should be registrated on a server and the game can't be used again - And you'll be automatically blacklisted from buying a new game in stores as well.

:lol so much win with some replies.

 

[imtehman]

You have just described exactly what I hate about that "genre defining feature" and gamers in general today. Gone are the days of having to work hard to achive something you want, gone are the days of pratice makes perfect, gamers today just want to be spoon feed. Then the want to compare e penises like a bunch of morons when half of them couldn't score over 10,000 in pac-man.

/rant.

Spoiler

Please don't ban me bish, posting in risky thread, goes back to lurking.

you have the option to be spoonfed.

 

[LCfiner]

Not at all. And you pretty much sum up the mindset with GT fans vs Forza fans with that statement. A Lap time is really a thing of beauty. Its your 1 chance to fire on all cylinders to create a perfect unison of man, machine, and road.

Holt Shit. There is some serious shit going down over here. :lol

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna slowly back out of this thread now and go make the perfect union of man, coffee and carrot muffin.

 

[Interfectum]

Gran Turismo is still the bigger franchise, with its reputation of being a racing simulation & the driving simulation intact even after its 4th installment scored lower than Forza in the media's eyes. Which is why Ferrari choose to debut their vehicle in the game, and why Citroen chooses GT to design a car, why Nissan picks polyphony to deliver the interface for the GTR, why KY himself wins races & puts Gran Turismo fans into driving school to turn around and win races. Yet, we are still here pointing out that while Forza has great features, and is one hell of a game, it doesn't stack up to the universe that Gran Turismo has created. Its just not in the same ballpark, and I think thats what gets under Forza fans' skin.

Nailed it.

 

[Yoritomo]

If you suck at racing in GT lower the difficulty and switch to the easier driving model. Theres too many others features PD should be focused on, screw rewind.

Rewind should be reasonably simple to implement though. Not that I care one way or the other. I don't use it much if at all in the demo other than to practice drift lines.

It wouldn't alter my impressions of whether GT should have it or not. However if GT has damage and endurance races, then rewind might be a helpful feature.

 

[commedieu]

You obviously didn't understand my argument.

It's very simple.

Rewind makes the game more fun for some people. With absolutely NO negative consequence in enjoyment to anybody else. It's a big net positive.

That means Forza is a more fun game. And that means Forza is a better game.

It might not be a more fun/better game TO YOU. But IN GENERAL it is.

And if you don't want your games to be better IN GENERAL, then you're a moron.

IF thats what forza is going after, why all the nonsense towards Gran Turismo? A driving simulator that does just that? This entire thread should be locked if thats the new mantra.

Most arcade games are more fun than gran turismo, but is that something that Turn10 can try to take credit for? T10 hasn't found some magical queue of people just dying to play Forza but were put off because it was too difficult, those people are called NFS customers.

Simulators are more rewarding to play because its up to you as the operator to improve, not kudo points. For simulation, I want amazing second to none visuals. I want options(1000 cars) including vehicles that I and others drive. I want tracks, I want accuracy(spoiler animations). Can you compare GT to Forza with your new argument of Forza being more fun? Because I can gladly concede that forza is more fun, but I enjoy Gran turismo more. Fun lasts for a few hours. Truly enjoying a product is why I've always purchased playstations for GT.

Turn10 says they have the best racing game, with the best physics, and the best graphics. Which isn't true at all. Sorry but they aren't saying they have "the most fun game geared towards a general audience!". They are lying about the quality of the game, bribing people on polls, and having their own employees troll gaf. I mean, its not like all of this isn't documented.

 

[Interfectum]

Turn10 says they have the best racing game, with the best physics, and the best graphics. Which isn't true at all. Sorry but they aren't saying they have "the most fun game geared towards a general audience!". They are lying about the quality of the game, bribing people on polls, and having their own employees troll gaf. I mean, its not like all of this isn't documented.

Documentation isn't enough anymore.

You have to see it in motion.

 

[imtehman]

someone already nailed why people are complaining about rewind

what if you can't stop yourself from hitting the button? because that has to be the problem.

in other words, arguing about rewind is like arguing about racing line indicators. it's a pretty stupid argument. they're teaching aids and only get attacked when one side uses it as a bullet point or the other side doesn't think it should be a bullet point. the truth is it's just a teaching aid in a game and you don't ever have to use it. it shouldn't even be considered usable by either side as ammo. what next? difficulty options? sound menus? :lol

the truth is, if GT5 had rewind it would be herald as the greatest innovation in racing and Forza fans will look at it with disdain.

Look at achievements, before trophies Sony fans trolled the shit out of achievements, but once trophies got implemented, those same trolls became trophy whores.

 

[gutterboy44]

You obviously didn't understand my argument.

It's very simple.

Rewind makes the game more fun for some people. With absolutely NO negative consequence in enjoyment to anybody else. It's a big net positive.

That means Forza is a more fun game. And that means Forza is a better game.

It might not be a more fun/better game TO YOU. But IN GENERAL it is.

And if you don't want your games to be better IN GENERAL, then you're a moron.

So by your logic, the inclusion of B-Spec mode (worst thing ever) could be the ultimate enjoyment for some beginners. Finally! none of the needless "racing" I just want to buy cars. Wow! Amazing! GT4 = best game more fun super ++ cause it has a feature that neither negates nor enhances shit but could be beneficial to some.

Can you start to see the extremity and misdirection of your argument when applied differently? I honestly don't care if it is thrown every racing game from now till the end of time. It doesn't sway my opinion that I dislike the ability to undo mistakes whilst racing. Once again, enjoying a game and gaming experience differently than someone else does not make them a moron.

 

[ShapeGSX]

If you cant agree that getting an awesome lap time is hard work that requires you to be perfect just once, I just dont know what to say to that? Its why racing sims are deemed boring by people because there isn't exploding cars or boost buttons. Its because its a personal challenge to you as a operator. Doing things over and over again is the reason you simulate it.

Lap times are marked as "dirty" if you go off course, hit another car, or if you use the rewind in Forza 3.

If you are trying to go for an awesome lap time in Forza 3, you can't use the rewind.

Nor can you drive 150mph while grinding against guard rails, nor cut across parts of the track, nor use other cars to help you corner.

Those lap times simply won't be recorded.

Rewind isn't an option if you are going for an awesome lap time. And it obviously does not work while racing online, which is when I usually get some of my best lap times. Turn 10 thought this system through very well.

 

[Orlics]

you people are hilarious, that is all

 

[hie]

Turn10 says they have the best racing game, with the best physics, and the best graphics. Which isn't true at all.

eh...I don't know if they've ever claimed that. The physics part is totally valid though. If you played both, it would be immediately apparent.

Forza 2 is the best console racing sim. F3/GT5 are not out yet.

 

[Doc Evils]

I don't understand this. My phone allows me to surf the Internet, use voice and use text. Typing text came from typewriters so therefore my phone isn't a phone because it features something that came from a different device? Modern day Ferraris aren't Ferraris because they feature F1 shifting and computer whiz bang stuff that the 250 GTO didn't have?

How is GT5P a sim when it didn't feature damage and Forza 2 did? How can Forza 2 be called a sim when it didn't feature cockpits?

Introducing a feature like rewind doesn't make Forza 3 any less of a "sim." I think of it as a practice aid. If I don't like turn 5 on track XYZ then I can practice it for hours on end in a very easy way. Formula 1 drivers use video to practice before the race. They can go over the same corner 1 million times before the race starts. Are they cheating?

When the real race (online) starts you can't rewind. The single player experience is there for you to practice for real racing.

I don't understand your concept of comparing a paddle shift to a manual gear box. That comparison simply allows to change gears at much faster speeds, which is different to a gameplay mechanic that changes an whole entire genre aspect to something that is designed to hold your hand and be very forgiving when you mess up.

The whole point people play racing sims is so they have something that is more realistic and challenging like real life. If you want to throw that challenge away, you have an arcade racer for people who are not skilled enough in the first place.

 

[dragonfart28]

Holt Shit. There is some serious shit going down over here. :lol

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna slowly back out of this thread now and go make the perfect union of man, coffee and carrot muffin.

:lol

Sorry, for some reason I thought of 'Now imma let you finish, but the perfect union is..'

 

[jaypah]

IF thats what forza is going after, why all the nonsense towards Gran Turismo? A driving simulator that does just that? This entire thread should be locked if thats the new mantra.

i still don't understand how the inclusion of things that you never have to use somehow makes Forza less of a sim. unless you're being purposefully dense. in which case, wow. or you're actually this dense and can't help it. in which case, my bad and i apologize.

lying about the quality of the game, bribing people on polls, and having their own employees troll gaf

that sucks too, but i guess he felt that was a part of his job. but what are you trolling Forza so hard for? and so help me God if your answer has anything to do with comments made by someone at T10 or "having PD's back" there will not be enough lols to covey how sad this has all become. looking at all of the posts in this thread i'm starting to wonder what's getting under the GT fans skin. if GT is as great as you say it is (and i agree) then what's the problem?

 

[commedieu]

someone already nailed why people are complaining about rewind



the truth is, if GT5 had rewind it would be herald as the greatest innovation in racing and Forza fans will look at it with disdain.

Look at achievements, before trophies Sony fans trolled the shit out of achievements, but once trophies got implemented, those same trolls became trophy whores.

That's the problem. Its not innovative, at all. I mean literally.. Its GRIDS's rewind feature. Which was GRID's highly advertised selling point, combine that with a Microsoft only product and now you get rewind being heralded as some great innovative addition to the genre. Thats something you wont find in sony products. Taking features from other places and stepping forward with them as unique/new/bullet points.

We all know one of the many problems sony doesn't suffer from, is getting credit for "innovation". Do you want to disagree with that?

Much like Kill.Switches(other games) cover system in Gears of War, Epic was noted for "innovating" it. And now any game with a cover system is now called a rip off of Gears.

Fanboys will always argue no matter what, and you're right about that. But we all know the inclusion of rewind in the Gran Turismo series wouldn't be highlighted by anyone. Especially in the climate of all of the PRO-PS3 sites out there with a clear bias towards sony.

 

[Trunchisholm]

A Lap time is really a thing of beauty. Its your 1 chance to fire on all cylinders to create a perfect unison of man, machine, and road.

It's just a game, man. Stop taking it so seriously. :lol

As for the rewind feature. It's just a feature. It's there so you can use it if you want. It's a welcome addition, especially for those endurance races where you screw the race at the last turn.

 

[Doc Evils]

May I also add that the main reason GRID has this feature in the first place is because it has extremely shitty car handling and this feature allows them to compensate the user.

 

[jaypah]

Thats something you wont find in sony products. Taking features from other places and stepping forward with them as unique/new/bullet points.

:lol you win, i'm tapping out.

 

[dragonfart28]

That's the problem. Its not innovative, at all. I mean literally.. Its GRIDS's rewind feature. Which was GRID's highly advertised selling point, combine that with a Microsoft only product and now you get rewind being heralded as some great innovative addition to the genre. Thats something you wont find in sony products. Taking features from other places and stepping forward with them as unique/new/bullet points.

We all know one of the many problems sony doesn't suffer from, is getting credit for "innovation". Do you want to disagree with that?

Much like Kill.Switches(other games) cover system in Gears of War, Epic was noted for "innovating" it. And now any game with a cover system is now called a rip off of Gears.

Fanboys will always argue no matter what, and you're right about that. But we all know the inclusion of rewind in the Gran Turismo series wouldn't be highlighted by anyone. Especially in the climate of all of the PRO-PS3 sites out there with a clear bias towards sony.

Look at you Mr. System Wars Dude, doing your thing. U so hawt.

 

[Keikoku]

May I also add that the main reason GRID has this feature in the first place is because it has extremely shitty car handling and this feature allows them to compensate the user.

FM3 has a much better car handling than both GRID, Shift and even GT5P. Rewind has nothing to do with it.

 

[Yoritomo]

someone already nailed why people are complaining about rewind



the truth is, if GT5 had rewind it would be herald as the greatest innovation in racing and Forza fans will look at it with disdain.

Look at achievements, before trophies Sony fans trolled the shit out of achievements, but once trophies got implemented, those same trolls became trophy whores.

Why is being a Forza fan mutually exclusive to liking GT? I've bought every Playsation iteration on the sole strength of GT. PS1 for GT, PS2 for GT3, and I'll be picking up a PS3 as soon as GT5 releases.

I'm also a Forza fan and it's a fun console racing sim that has popularized different features in the genre.

I imagine there are many like me, and I also imagine that those who are the most pro-forza and anti-GT haven't played a GT game since GT4. When GT5 releases there will be more fans of both again. I'm not a GT hater, my love has just lapsed since it's been so long since a major GT release on a home console. I can form a new polygamous relationship when GT5 comes out. I can't wait for the threesome.

 

[Ze_Pershing]

It might not be a more fun/better game TO YOU. But IN GENERAL it is.

And if you don't want your games to be better IN GENERAL, then you're a moron.

excuse my ignorance, but what makes you so special to make such an assumption? Were you chosen to be the voice of general public?

 

[Yoritomo]

It's crazy that the bulk of evey page shows up as ignore listed even though I only have 4 people on my IL now :lol

 

[CadetMahoney]

arguing about rewind is like arguing about racing line indicators. it's a pretty stupid argument. they're teaching aids and only get attacked when one side uses it as a bullet point or the other side doesn't think it should be a bullet point. the truth is it's just a teaching aid in a game and you don't ever have to use it. it shouldn't even be considered usable by either side as ammo. what next? difficulty options? sound menus?

the truth is, if GT5 had rewind it would be herald as the greatest innovation in racing and Forza fans will look at it with disdain.

Look at achievements, before trophies Sony fans trolled the shit out of achievements, but once trophies got implemented, those same trolls became trophy whores.

lol pretty much.

Could it be that because of the way gt has been designed it would be too awkward to implement the rewind feature in GT because of memory issues. . . this means the rewind feature is shat upon because 'boys know it won't be in GT and are afraid of a "bullet point".

I think the biggest threat would be if players in general actually get accustomed to it and see it as integral to the gameplay as they're learning the game. In other words it really is a good feature. Maybe, even. . . genre defining. heh.

When GT comes along half a year later in the west and doesn't have it, reviewers and players will feel the difference and score accordingly. So it's no surprise the gt defence force will try and make up as much propaganda on rewind, finding as much poo to fling at it as possible.

 

[Keikoku]

Look at achievements, before trophies Sony fans trolled the shit out of achievements, but once trophies got implemented, those same trolls became trophy whores.

So true.

 

[RSTEIN]

I don't understand your concept of comparing a paddle shift to a manual gear box. That comparison simply allows to change gears at much faster speeds, which is different to a gameplay mechanic that changes an whole entire genre aspect to something that is designed to hold your hand and be very forgiving when you mess up.

A clutchless, computerized paddle shifter allows for faster lap times. Technological innovation brings faster lap times. These innovations can be in the car itself or outside the car. Again, look at how many F1 drivers are sitting in the pits watching video in their cockpit as if they were racing. They are doing something "that is designed to hold their hand and be very forgiving when they mess up." The rewind features is exactly the same. It allows me to practice more efficiently. When it comes to the race, I don't have the safety of rewind. I'm in full concentration mode. Just like martial arts. I practice techniques slower in the dojo versus when I'm outside the dojo.

The whole point people play racing sims is so they have something that is more realistic and challenging like real life. If you want to throw that challenge away, you have an arcade racer for people who are not skilled enough in the first place.

I don't understand how the rewind feature makes the game less challenging. It's a practice tool. When I race for real I can't use it. I can't tell my online friends "oh, hey, everyone rewind to the last corner cuase I screwed up." And, if you're into leaderboards (I'm not) then if you rewind then you won't find yourself at the top.

 

[Yoritomo]

lol pretty much.

Could it be that because of the way gt has been designed it would be too awkward to implement the rewind feature in GT because of memory issues. . . this means the rewind feature is shat upon because 'boys know it won't be in GT and are afraid of a "bullet point".

If you can watch a replay of the race I'm pretty sure rewinding a few seconds is pretty simple.

 

[evolution]

lol pretty much.

Could it be that because of the way gt has been designed it would be too awkward to implement the rewind feature in GT because of memory issues. . . this means the rewind feature is shat upon because 'boys know it won't be in GT and are afraid of a "bullet point".

I think the biggest threat would be if players in general actually get accustomed to it and see it as integral to the gameplay as they're learning the game. In other words it really is a good feature. Maybe, even. . . genre defining. heh.

When GT comes along half a year later in the west and doesn't have it, reviewers and players will feel the difference and score accordingly. So it's no surprise the gt defence force will try and make up as much propaganda on rewind, finding as much poo to fling at it as possible.

:lol reviewers are not gonna give a shit about rewinding when the game has so much content.

 

[keyrat]

the truth is, if GT5 had rewind it would be herald as the greatest innovation in racing and Forza fans will look at it with disdain.

Look at achievements, before trophies Sony fans trolled the shit out of achievements, but once trophies got implemented, those same trolls became trophy whores.

Yea, or you can look at damage, which GT is getting but the only people clamoring for it were non-GT players. Even KY has come out to say that people asked him why he even bothered with damage aesthetics.

 

[Niks]

Nice to see this thread

Spoiler

back on track

.
:lol

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

:lol reviewers are not gonna give a shit about rewinding when the game has so much content.

Probably not, but I can see a significant amount of attention being given to comparisons of more major features; storefront, online, etc.

 

[commedieu]

i still don't understand how the inclusion of things that you never have to use somehow makes Forza less of a sim. unless you're being purposefully dense. in which case, wow. or you're actually this dense and can't help it. in which case, my bad and i apologize.

that sucks too, but i guess he felt that was a part of his job. but what are you trolling Forza so hard for? and so help me God if your answer has anything to do with comments made by someone at T10 or "having PD's back" there will not be enough lols to covey how sad this has all become. looking at all of the posts in this thread i'm starting to wonder what's getting under the GT fans skin. if GT is as great as you say it is (and i agree) then what's the problem?

The problem isn't the inclusion of things you'll never use. Forza3 is selling itself as the best driving simulation, yet the only things it can provide as evidence of this is its arcade features of Rewind/Autobraking a higher physics calculation hertz as well as tyre flexing(also appearing in Shift an arcade racer). They are non-issues to the simulation that is forza,(EDit: Which was already ages beyond the Gran Turismo Series.. right?) yet the only pro's. Forza as a franchise isn't known for its real to life simulation comparisons, has a history of badly scaled/wrong tracks, not the greatest weight displacement either. Does that matter? Hell no. The community/online/custimization and the painting is the biggest feature of the title(and in the racing genre). Which is clear since its the only bulletpoints TURN10 can highlight for the third version.

Im a gamer first. As all of my comments have always stated, forza is a GREAT/AMAZING/BADASS/WONDERFUL series( I even converted from GT4 to Forza). Trolling is overused on this site and for this scenario. Turn10 lied about the game, cant back it up with gameplay or screenshots. The physics are fine and they always have been, just different. Calling out people promoting Turn10's actions isn't trolling in my opinion. And if it wasn't happening, no one would be here in this thread. I see what you're trying to do with your whole "if the game is fine why are you trolling" argument, but we are on a gaming forum. We talk about games/developers/news. Its news when Turn10 lies about their game, at the same time saying its better than established franchises. And hell it should be news.

As a customer of the series, I fail to understand why Turn10 decided to lie about it, and throw all other sims under the bus. It sells itself. Their attitude has unfortunately infected the community/fanbase with this artificial competition of the two. The car sim arena is very small. We are all fans of car games. And all GT fans know damn well that Forza has features that they wish were in GT.

There is no problem. GT has never deemed ITSELF the greatest/best anything. There, right there is the issue. I'm not saying GT is the best sim ever made nor is anyone else, but thats the assumed logic behind saying Forza isn't exactly the best out there. "Oh so that means GT is perfect then!??!" Nope. Its not an issue of getting under anyones skin, its an issue of blatant lies in a small gaming community & getting called out for it.

 

[commedieu]

:lol you win, i'm tapping out.

Come on in the context I said referring to gaming you know its true.. Sony games aren't getting nods for using existing game features from other franchises and putting them forward as new to gaming. My example about the cover system is the type of acknowledgment I'm speaking of. Even Uncharted's cover system is referred to as "gears".

Hardware is another issue

 

[evolution]

Probably not, but I can see a significant amount of attention being given to comparisons of more major features; storefront, online, etc.

Honestly i think GT wins that battle in the end. But i think we've had this discussion already

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

There is no problem. GT has never deemed ITSELF the greatest/best anything. There, right there is the issue. I'm not saying GT is the best sim ever made nor is anyone else, but thats the assumed logic behind saying Forza isn't exactly the best out there. "Oh so that means GT is perfect then!??!" Nope. Its not an issue of getting under anyones skin, its an issue of blatant lies in a small gaming community & getting called out for it.

I'd be careful throwing "blatant lies" around. Everything Greenawalt said is semantically true as long as Forza is the best Next Gen sim racer actually released. When GT5 is actually for sale I'd pretty much guarantee they'll stop throwing the word "definitive" around. MS did the same thing before the PS3 was released and, at the time, it was true.

Honestly i think GT wins that battle in the end. But i think we've had this discussion already

Sure, naturally. It'll be up to each reviewer what they value most, as it is for each gamer.

 

[Omar Ismail]

excuse my ignorance, but what makes you so special to make such an assumption? Were you chosen to be the voice of general public?

Again, you don't understand my point.

I'm going to explain this out in excruciating detail.

Let's say you and I are the only two people in the world that will by F3. Now you'll have a certain amount of fun with the game. I will have a certain amount of fun with the game. The average amount of fun will be: (F1+F2)/2 = AF1

You couldn't care less about rewind.
I, however, find that it makes the game more fun for me. And rewind doesn't affect your experience in any way whatsoever. The equation is now (F1 + (F2 + Rewind Fun)) = AF2.

By definition AF2 > AF1.

Now we expand this equation out to be more than just you and me, but everyone that wants to play/buy any game. Anything a developer does that increases AF (Average Fun) is a Good Thing.

I'm not trying to convince YOU to like rewind. That's asinine.

I'm saying that *I* love rewind. There are certain people that are like me who will also love it, and will thus have more fun with the game. Me and people like me having more fun DOESN'T AFFECT YOU IN ANY WAY.

THEREFORE Average Fun provided by the game goes up. PERIOD.

Now, to illustrate things further. There are some games that introduce features that make the game fun for some people, but at the cost of fun for others. Something like Forza 2's career mode. I'm sure there are some people out there that loved the grind of F2's career mode. However, a lot of people really hated it. So the Average Fun probably went down, or didn't go up by much when they introduced it.

F3's rewind mode doesn't HURT ANYBODY. But it HELPS a lot of people.

I really don't know how else to explain this.

But I guess that kind of proves my point. If you're arguing against rewind then you don't understand anything I'm saying because... well... you're a moron

 

[xenorevlis]

eh...I don't know if they've ever claimed that.

E3 2009, Turn 10 on stage says "Definitive racing game with best physics, graphics, etc.".

I just watched a clip of this on Inside XBL or whatever last night.

 

[LCfiner]

Again, you don't understand my point.

I'm going to explain this out in excruciating detail.

Let's say you and I are the only two people in the world that will by F3. Now you'll have a certain amount of fun with the game. I will have a certain amount of fun with the game. The average amount of fun will be: (F1+F2)/2 = AF1

You couldn't care less about rewind.
I, however, find that it makes the game more fun for me. And rewind doesn't affect your experience in any way whatsoever. The equation is now (F1 + (F2 + Rewind Fun)) = AF2.

By definition AF2 > AF1.

Now we expand this equation out to be more than just you and me, but everyone that wants to play/buy any game. Anything a developer does that increases AF (Average Fun) is a Good Thing.

I'm not trying to convince YOU to like rewind. That's asinine.

I'm saying that *I* love rewind. There are certain people that are like me who will also love it, and will thus have more fun with the game. Me and people like me having more fun DOESN'T AFFECT YOU IN ANY WAY.

THEREFORE Average Fun provided by the game goes up. PERIOD.

I love this post. :lol

Using math to derive the Fun Quotient (tm) of a game. only on Gaf :lol


(btw, I'm not poking fun. I agree)

 

[commedieu]

I'd be careful throwing "blatant lies" around. Everything Greenawalt said is semantically true as long as Forza is the best Next Gen sim racer actually released. When GT5 is actually for sale I'd pretty much guarantee they'll stop throwing the word "definitive" around. MS did the same thing before the PS3 was released and, at the time, it was true.

Not sure I need to be careful of anything when Turn10 said the game has 10x more polygons, "Turn10 doesn't do bullshots", and had people bribed for internet polls? At this point I feel like im taking crazy pills if im on the wrong side of this.

And if the community took Greenwalts words at semantically value, we wouldn't see the rush to compare GT to Forza. I mean, thats just being a bit naive. Especially with all the pot shots thrown at other developers, including Polyphony.

I dont mean to harp on it, but someone asked. I answered. Its Turn10's\Ches job to make the game look good, and they've done a good job doing so. But its not like they have Dig-Dug the racer on their hands. Its a great game, which didn't need the negative/wrong information being shipped by them.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

E3 2009, Turn 10 on stage says "Definitive racing game with best physics, graphics, etc.".

I just watched a clip of this on Inside XBL or whatever last night.

Again, semantically true. Newspapers were the definitive method of distributing news before TV came along and even DURING the period of time when said Newspapers were reporting about this new upcoming invention called television with a steadily emerging new feature set.

Just saying. I don't really see the point in getting upset about it when he's not actually lying.

 

[xenorevlis]

Again, semantically true. Newspapers were the definitive method of distributing news before TV came along and even DURING the period of time when said Newspapers were reporting about this new upcoming invention called television with a steadily emerging new feature set.

Just saying. I don't really see the point in getting upset about it when he's not actually lying.

Oh, I'm not upset in the least. I've been in this thread mostly to see the awesome GIFs and to mention information when false stuff is thrown out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGvsNokNZjE#t=2m16s

He says there is no other racing game that looks that good on consoles. I'd say that's a pretty bold lie :lol

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Not sure I need to be careful of anything when Turn10 said the game has 10x more polygons, "Turn10 doesn't do bullshots", and had people bribed for internet polls? At this point I feel like im taking crazy pills if im on the wrong side of this.

And if the community took Greenwalts words at semantically value, we wouldn't see the rush to compare GT to Forza. I mean, thats just being a bit naive. Especially with all the pot shots thrown at other developers, including Polyphony.

I dont mean to harp on it, but someone asked. I answered. Its Turn10's\Ches job to make the game look good, and they've done a good job doing so. But its not like they have Dig-Dug the racer on their hands. Its a great game, which didn't need the negative/wrong information being shipped by them.

Fair enough, but I think it's naive to think that if T10 hadn't brought up GT there'd be no rush to compare the two among the fanbase. There's GAF threads comparing Brutal Legend to Uncharted for God's sake! No one needs prodding from devs to pit two games against each other!

 

[Death Dealer]

Just saying. I don't really see the point in getting upset about it when he's not actually lying.

In the US, corporations are allowed to lie. I believe it's settled law.

 

[Slackbladder]

Isn't rewind an option in Forza 3 like the racing line and visual/full damage? Can it not be turned on or off? If it's an option what's the issue? If some gamers use it then that's their choice. No way in hell would I say that's wrong. I would however suggest that they may find the game more fulfilling by not using rewind. But again, that's their choice.
However, if rewind is just there to be used at any time and it CAN'T be turned off then yeah, that is stupid.

Also, what's the consensus on Forza 3's cockpit view? Personally I think it's terrible. Looking at it it's like the driver is literally sitting over the wheel. And yet I think I saw a pic some time ago where the cockpit view was more akin to GT5, Shift, etc.

 

[commedieu]

Again, you don't understand my point.

I'm going to explain this out in excruciating detail................

Fun isn't a prerequisite of a Simulation though. I think most have had more fun with Wii games than most Forza/Gran Turismo titles out. It appeals to casuals, but thats also not something that is mandatory for Simulations.

Forza can't seem to win on any direct specification level(outside of release date :lol ) head to head, so now its up to the subjective fun quotient? I think you both know what each other means.

Forza2 though was also more "fun" than GT4 or Prologue. Basing it on its community features/painting. But that didn't really migrate a large casual following. Or a following larger than the previous titles release on the older console.

There are several more fun games than there are than Simulations out there.

 

[gutterboy44]

I'm saying that *I* love rewind. There are certain people that are like me who will also love it, and will thus have more fun with the game. Me and people like me having more fun DOESN'T AFFECT YOU IN ANY WAY....

THEREFORE Average Fun provided by the game goes up. PERIOD....

F3's rewind mode doesn't HURT ANYBODY. But it HELPS a lot of people....


But I guess that kind of proves my point. If you're arguing against rewind then you don't understand anything I'm saying because... well... you're a moron

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that optional features necessarily = more fun to a given product and that it is impossible for a optional feature to be a deterrent and less fun. A simple scenario of exchanging hot seat laps with a friend where one prefers the use of rewind and the other doesn't could technically detract from the fun. (ohhh shit! look out Brahmagupta variables!)

More importantly, I don't even need a one versus the other scenario to validate my argument, lets assume GT5 and FZ3 have the exact same features, at no point would I ever tout the rewind feature as fun enhancing or integral. It is the very same reason I would never slight a game that didn't have B-Spec mode, by your flawed logic it equates to more fun because some people enjoy it or could use it as a learning tool.

You really don't need to attempt do deconstruct your argument because it is quite clear what you are trying to say, "I prefer FZ3 regardless" which is perfectly valid to say. So, no reason to try to invent a fun formula for a trivial option to justify your preference.

 

[commedieu]

Fair enough, but I think it's naive to think that if T10 hadn't brought up GT there'd be no rush to compare the two among the fanbase. There's GAF threads comparing Brutal Legend to Uncharted for God's sake! No one needs prodding from devs to pit two games against each other!

As someone who is a supernerd.. I'd have to say that there were not too many comparisons of F2 to GT5p made soon after F2's release due to the state F2 was in. Credit was given where credit was due. F2 had great features, GT5p of course took home the graphics & dated gameplay awards. That was literally it. You had a thriving Forza community, and people like me playing GT5p, pissed off that ya still dont have a full release. Waiting for GT5. But it certainly wasn't to the level it is now. I mean we have a thread directed towards this to where all of us will probably be banned from gaf :\ but ah well.

I mean most car sites like Gtplanet saw an influx of "hahaha look at our photomode & creativity trailer" when E3 came around. And that really sparked all of this. And at the end of the day, I think it was the desired effect by Turn10. Now there is definitely an association with Gran Turismo and its "killer" forza. I back this up by saying GT fans have been sitting around since GT4 scored lower than 2 Forzas, there definitely hasn't been this level of conversation about the two since recently.