Support NeoGAF

[Omar Ismail]

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that optional features necessarily = more fun to a given product and that it is impossible for a optional feature to be a deterrent and less fun. A simple scenario of exchanging hot seat laps with a friend where one prefers the use of rewind and the other doesn't could technically detract from the fun. (ohhh shit! look out Brahmagupta variables!)

More importantly, I don't even need a one versus the other scenario to validate my argument, lets assume GT5 and FZ3 have the exact same features, at no point would I ever tout the rewind feature as fun enhancing or integral. It is the very same reason I would never slight a game that didn't have B-Spec mode, by your flawed logic it equates to more fun because some people enjoy it or could use it as a learning tool.

Helloooo McFly!

I'm not trying to convince YOU to like rewind. That's asinine.

My overall mantra is that any feature that makes a game more fun for people while not negatively affecting anybody else is a Good Thing.

Do you honest to God disagree with that statement? Seriously?

 

[Igo]

A clutchless, computerized paddle shifter allows for faster lap times. Technological innovation brings faster lap times. These innovations can be in the car itself or outside the car. Again, look at how many F1 drivers are sitting in the pits watching video in their cockpit as if they were racing. They are doing something "that is designed to hold their hand and be very forgiving when they mess up." The rewind features is exactly the same. It allows me to practice more efficiently. When it comes to the race, I don't have the safety of rewind. I'm in full concentration mode. Just like martial arts. I practice techniques slower in the dojo versus when I'm outside the dojo.

What are you on about here. They're looking at lap delta from their engineers.

Lets be honest here. GT5's not going to have rewind and will people really care? Somehow I don't think it's a feature that will be a decider for people buying GT5.

 

[theignoramus]

eh...I don't know if they've ever claimed that. The physics part is totally valid though. If you played both, it would be immediately apparent.

“We’ve got the best physics, the best graphics, the most cars, the most tracks...we’re trying to redefine the racing genre.”-Dan Greenawalt at your service.

 

[commedieu]

Again, semantically true. Newspapers were the definitive method of distributing news before TV came along and even DURING the period of time when said Newspapers were reporting about this new upcoming invention called television with a steadily emerging new feature set.

Just saying. I don't really see the point in getting upset about it when he's not actually lying.

additionally...

Generally speaking, I get what you're saying about it technically being accurate. Which is of course made void when he says "Our competition didn't even show up", while NFS:S/Supercar Challenge was at E3, PD wasn't. They were directed at PD, much like the whole "passing the torch" comments.

For that, I don't think its wrong to reply to others posting that F3 is the "definitive" racer with the "best graphics" with GT5p/GT5 footage. I hardly think its trolling or out of bounds to point out Forza3's shortcomings as well. Without any of those turn10 comments, GT folk wouldn't have had any reasons to go out of their way to drudge up screen shots and compare the two. Anyone looking at Forza3 direct feed images would know to steer clear of comparing the two in the first place, but thats the thing, turn10 said they were direct feed(the bullshots). Which caused more "ZOMGS" to be compared to GT5p.

I can see it from the innocent oblivious "buh buh we didn't know what LOD meant" turn10 angle, but can you really not see it from the other side?

 

[CadetMahoney]

My overall mantra is that any feature that makes a game more fun for people while not negatively affecting anybody else is a Good Thing.

Do you honest to God disagree with that statement? Seriously?

I think he's just trying to say it might be a possibility an OPTIONAL feature MIGHT be a deterrent and less fun:

"
Your entire argument is based on the assumption that optional features necessarily = more fun to a given product and that it is impossible for a optional feature to be a deterrent and less fun.
"

heh, sounds like some sort of logical fallacy. . . "your arguing it's impossible for an optional feature to be less fun and a deterrant!! 1"

The game isn't even fully out yet for a the general gamers to get accustomed to this new feature. A feature which is optional. . . only the sith deal in absolutes. heh.

 

[jaypah]

Without any of those turn10 comments, GT folk wouldn't have had any reasons to go out of their way to drudge up screen shots and compare the two.

and this goes for both sides but i think m0dus said it best:

:lol I must say, I admire the trolls' conviction and dedication in this thread!

^^ from the Forza 2 official thread. yeah, haters been hating. which is why i love to hear people hang the hate on Dan and his inane ramblings.

bottom line is fanboys don't like shit that ain't theirs, both ways. news at 11. point blank. no more, no less.

now i'm gone for real. my pasta is getting cold.

 

[Omar Ismail]

heh, sounds like some sort of logical fallacy. . . "your arguing it's impossible for an optional feature to be less fun and a deterrant!! 1"

It's true that optional features can make games less fun. However, in this SPECIFIC instance with the way that rewind is implemented in F3, the optional feature does NOT make the game less fun for the hardcore. All the complaints the hardcore have brought up: thrill of crashes, and thrill of perfect laps STILL apply in F3 because of the rewind invalidation, and crashes in multiplayer.

 

[RSTEIN]

For that, I don't think its wrong to reply to others posting that F3 is the "definitive" racer with the "best graphics" with GT5p/GT5 footage. I hardly think its trolling or out of bounds to point out Forza3's shortcomings as well. Without any of those turn10 comments, GT folk wouldn't have had any reasons to go out of their way to drudge up screen shots and compare the two. Anyone looking at Forza3 direct feed images would know to steer clear of comparing the two in the first place, but thats the thing, turn10 said they were direct feed(the bullshots). Which caused more "ZOMGS" to be compared to GT5p.

I agree with you for the most part. Turn 10 invited an extra degree of scrutiny when they boasted to the world. When the whole LOD thing popped up then of course hardcore GT fans pounced. They set themselves up to fail rather than set expectations low and have them pleasantly surpassed. But there are a lot of racing games out there right now so I can't blame them for shouting loud to get Average Joe gamer's attention.

 

[seattle6418]

F3's rewind mode doesn't HURT ANYBODY. But it HELPS a lot of people.

Doesn'it?

Seriously, my lack of knowledge towards the full game might be getting in the middle of this, but what i think most people are arguing, is that the rewind feature CANNOT HELP YOU GET ACHIEVMENTS OR ONLINE RECORDS. If the feature is just for your single player carrear, then so be it. I've played GTA4 with cheats because i wanted a quick run, but i agree 100% that i shouldn't have any trophies because of my choices.

IF, and that's a big IF, the rewind features helps people get into the online rankings or to get all the achievments, then this would be a colossal failure, because it's not just making the game better for one person.

It's making the game awful for everybody playing the right way.

I assume that i don't have better knowledge on this subject, but from what i know, the only problem is if the feature starts bothering the others.

 

[commedieu]

and this goes for both sides but i think m0dus said it best:



^^ from the Forza 2 official thread. yeah, haters been hating. which is why i love to hear people hang the hate on Dan and his inane ramblings.

bottom line is fanboys don't like shit that ain't theirs, both ways. news at 11. point blank. no more, no less.

now i'm gone for real. my pasta is getting cold.

Buh.. how does it go both ways.. when PD.. hasn't said..

nevermind (places crayola back in nose)

 

[gutterboy44]

It's true that optional features can make games less fun. However, in this SPECIFIC instance with the way that rewind is implemented in F3, the optional feature does NOT make the game less fun for the hardcore. All the complaints the hardcore have brought up: thrill of crashes, and thrill of perfect laps STILL apply in F3 because of the rewind invalidation, and crashes in multiplayer.

In this SPECIFIC instance it is your opinion that it can only contribute fun. I was quickly able to conceive a scenario where it may make any racing game less fun, for either hardcore or casual player. It is not a given that this feature must equate to more fun. It is your opinion, nothing more.

Helloooo McFly!

My overall mantra is that any feature that makes a game more fun for people while not negatively affecting anybody else is a Good Thing.

Do you honest to God disagree with that statement? Seriously?

Yep, so clearly B-Spec mode in GT games make it better than FZ. You do see how foolish that seems right? Now just replace the word B-Spec with rewind. That wasn't so hard was it. Ya know, since you value trivial options so highly. Neither features contribute to the end game of both these franchises, better racing simulation.

 

[jaypah]

Buh.. how does it go both ways.. when PD.. hasn't said..

nevermind (places crayola back in nose)

ah, fake stupidity. keeping me coming back! my point is that there was a shit ton of trolling for F2, so the crazy PR talk during the run up to F3 has nothing to do with how hard it's getting trolled. it's getting trolled because it's not GT. and GT gets trolled because it's not Forza.

or like i said quite plainly in my previous post, fanboys hate shit that ain't theirs and it goes both ways. i don't know how make it any easier for you to digest. maybe you should leave the crayon out

 

[commedieu]

I agree with you for the most part. Turn 10 invited an extra degree of scrutiny when they boasted to the world. When the whole LOD thing popped up then of course hardcore GT fans pounced. They set themselves up to fail rather than set expectations low and have them pleasantly surpassed. But there are a lot of racing games out there right now so I can't blame them for shouting loud to get Average Joe gamer's attention.

Their last game(s) did perfectly fine against GT & Need for Speed though! Sold quite well too! Joe Gamer is buying Joe-hn Madden & Joe-NeedForSpeed Joe-Call of Duty too. Forza 1 & Forza2 did just fine with the advertising/previews. And more importantly, they were/are good games.

No one should blame anyone or any company for trying to expand their audience. But Turn10 didn't just try to do that without disparaging every car game & talent out there. Which is not something admirable about the way they are running their business. Their final product shows why there was the need for all the boasting, but even then. The F3 demo shows off a good game, and a welcome addition to the franchise. But you'd think turn10 figured out how to render 7+ vehicles on the road without severe LOD reductions or animated vehicle mechanics with the level of disrespect they've thrown in every direction.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I can see it from the innocent oblivious "buh buh we didn't know what LOD meant" turn10 angle, but can you really not see it from the other side?

I can see the perception, but I don't get the anger. I think we can all agree, even now, that no racing game will ever look as good as GT5, and that no racing game will ever have the community integration that Forza does. T10 can say they're the Definitive racing game, GT can say they're the Real Driving Simulator, and each "side" can chrotle to themselves about why they feel each one is innacuarate as per their personal preferences. And that's fine.

I don't get the sentiment that either "side" would ever feel "lied to".

 

[theignoramus]

The rewind tool in FM3 is convenient and definitely makes the game more accessible to people that are turned off by the grinding aspect of sims. Some simply want to race exotic vehicles with realistic handling without a punishing consequence. It sort of reminds me of the "Mulligan" feature that used to be in Madden games; it's useful, but I have to laugh at the guy that stormed in here and shouted that he'd "skip" GT if it ships without a rewind feature.
PD doesnt give a fuck about your ultimatums, dude, they'll still sell 4 million easy.:lol :lol
Your loss.

 

[commedieu]

ah, fake stupidity. keeping me coming back! my point is that there was a shit ton of trolling for F2, so the crazy PR talk during the run up to F3 has nothing to do with how hard it's getting trolled. it's getting trolled because it's not GT. and GT gets trolled because it's not Forza.

or like i said quite plainly in my previous post, fanboys hate shit that ain't theirs and it goes both ways. i don't know how make it any easier for you to digest. maybe you should leave the crayon out

No one is saying there aren't fanboys & that they dont exist. There are. But there weren't specific GT vs Forza official bitch fests till F3 came around. Thats why I mentioned other sites like GTplanet, which saw a flood of new users posting the creative & bullshots all over the site. Around when E3 happened. As I type, I'm reminded of why you don't argue online. Here:

GT fanboys have absolutely nothing to brag about in the rules of systemwars/fanboyship. GT scored lower, therefore its a FLOP. GT morons paid to buy a demo, with no damage and bumper car racing.

But those are bottom of the barrel fanboys, unlike us . I'd say a shit ton is a complete exaggeration, especially knowing the laws of system wars . Forza2 trolling stopped at the graphics, and even Sim enthusiasm sites gave Forza2 the clear win at the time. While PSTURDS continued to wait for games on their delaystation. :lol

 

[jaypah]

No one is saying there aren't fanboys & that they dont exist. There are. But there weren't specific GT vs Forza official bitch fests till F3 came around. Thats why I mentioned other sites like GTplanet, which saw a flood of new users posting the creative & bullshots all over the site. Around when E3 happened. As I type, I'm reminded of why you don't argue online. Here:

GT fanboys have absolutely nothing to brag about in the rules of systemwars/fanboyship. GT scored lower, therefore its a FLOP. GT morons paid to buy a demo, with no damage and bumper car racing.

But those are bottom of the barrel fanboys, unlike us . I'd say a shit ton is a complete exaggeration, especially knowing the laws of system wars . Forza2 trolling stopped at the graphics, and even Sim enthusiasm sites gave Forza2 the clear win at the time. While PSTURDS continued to wait for games on their delaystation. :lol

i hear what you're saying. just stating that F2 got straight shitted on too. and F3 will and F4 will. and it's not because of community managers.

 

[-viper-]

Fuck rewind. There should be an option to freeze your A.I. opponants. Would make the game so much more fun for me. I'd be dominating every single race. So much more appealing to 'Average Joe' who may struggle in races too.

How about a nitro button which boosts speed to 250mph? Sounds like a good idea to. Or what about the ability to shoot rockets, blowing up the other car sky high?

Again, these are all optional features. At the end of the day, these games will attract more consumers and fans! Think about THE FUN!

 

[Omar Ismail]

In this SPECIFIC instance it is your opinion that it can only contribute fun. I was quickly able to conceive a scenario where it may make any racing game less fun, for either hardcore or casual player. It is not a given that this feature must equate to more fun. It is your opinion, nothing more.



Yep, so clearly B-Spec mode in GT games make it better than FZ. You do see how foolish that seems right? Now just replace the word B-Spec with rewind. That wasn't so hard was it. Ya know, since you value trivial options so highly. Neither features contribute to the end game of both these franchises, better racing simulation.

I think Forza does have a B-Spec mode. You can hire drivers to race for you which is pretty much the same thing? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Furthermore, not all options are created equal.
Look at the driving line. I don't think I'm alone when I say that the driving line was a huge improvement to the racing genre in total. It is now a standard in driving games. Again, hardcore sim fans probably disagreed when it was first introduced, but many people loved it and here we are. Rewind is the same thing.

The ironic thing is that accessible features like racing lines and rewind make it so that it's easier for people to become hardcore, which gives the already hardcore more competition.

 

[-viper-]

I think Forza does have a B-Spec mode. You can hire drivers to race for you which is pretty much the same thing? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Furthermore, not all options are created equal.
Look at the driving line. I don't think I'm alone when I say that the driving line was a huge improvement to the racing genre in total. It is now a standard in driving games. Again, hardcore sim fans probably disagreed when it was first introduced, but many people loved it and here we are. Rewind is the same thing.

The ironic thing is that accessible features like racing lines and rewind make it so that it's easier for people to become hardcore, which gives the already hardcore more competition.

Driving line and rewind are completely different things.

The former is an assist. The latter is an option to cheat your way through the game.

What is the point of a damage model if you can simply rewind every time you crash? Seems utterly pointless. As I said, might as well have the option of shifting into overdrive @ 299mph or freezing oppoonant A.I. to appeal the game to a broader audience.

 

[CrushDance]

I can see the perception, but I don't get the anger. I think we can all agree, even now, that no racing game will ever look as good as GT5, and that no racing game will ever have the community integration that Forza does. T10 can say they're the Definitive racing game, GT can say they're the Real Driving Simulator, and each "side" can chrotle to themselves about why they feel each one is innacuarate as per their personal preferences. And that's fine.

I don't get the sentiment that either "side" would ever feel "lied to".

No they can't, it's not subjective. When you say definitive, you are saying that you're the absolute best at what you do and there is none greater. Curiously he ignored PC sims while he was on stage and all over the internet. Polyphony on the other hand has never straight up called out their competitors in anyway whatsoever and abused the tagline of the series "The real driving simulator". They shut up and work on the game till it's done, reviewers and the gamers then make up their mind. That's a lesson that T10 could learn from Polyhpony, we wouldn't be here and wouldn't have so much drama over screen shots and features if T10 just hyped their own game without stomping on the toes of others. I mean saying he's never seen anything like Forza on PC's?!. Especially considering the fact that Polyphony is no slouch developer and probably was/is working on many features that T10 may not even have implemented themselves.

Forza is a good game and will do fine, but it is not GT in any way. At the end of the day there will be tons more GT5 in the hands of the public than FM3. The remarks stated by T10 during the whole process though just came off as insecure and showed no sense of good will. T10 is just lucky that they didn't call out any PC sims by name.

 

[LCfiner]

Driving line and rewind are completely different things.

The former is an assist. The latter is an option to cheat your way through the game.

What is the point of a damage model if you can simply rewind every time you crash? Seems utterly pointless. As I said, might as well have the option of shifting into overdrive @ 299mph or freezing oppoonant A.I. to appeal the game to a broader audience.

rewinding as much as you want won’t improve your lap time if you have no skills and refuse to learn. you’re still gonna make the same mistakes unless you learn to drive properly. It’s not an instant win button and it’s not a substitute for learning proper racing lines and how to take corners properly. it’s a learning tool and an assist for folks who’ve been playing a GAME and don’t want to redo a race because of one mistake.

For people who want to treat the game as a game, it’s an option to help reduce the frustration factor

and for those who do know how to drive properly, and want to treat the game as simulator, the rewind feature isn’t even a consideration. it nullifies lap times for leaderboards and can’t be used online.

 

[-viper-]

F3's rewind mode doesn't HURT ANYBODY.

Yes it does actually. By constantly using rewind your driver skills detoriate. Badly. Soon you will realise you will find it practically impossible to complete a race without rewind.

But lets be honest. If you can't play a racing game without rewind, then maybe you shouldn't be playing racing games.

 

[LCfiner]

Yes it does actually. By constantly using rewind your driver skills detoriate. Badly. Soon you will realise you will find it practically impossible to complete a race without rewind.

But lets be honest. If you can't play a racing game without rewind, then maybe you shouldn't be playing racing games.

Man, I really hate this elitist attitude. It’s pretty much the worst reaction someone could have.

 

[gutterboy44]

Driving line and rewind are completely different things.

The former is an assist. The latter is an option to cheat your way through the game.

What is the point of a damage model if you can simply rewind every time you crash? Seems utterly pointless. As I said, might as well have the option of shifting into overdrive @ 299mph or freezing oppoonant A.I. to appeal the game to a broader audience.

Yep, this. Driving line has been in racing sims for ages. It is such a non feature I have no clue what games have it and what games don't. The driving line is a visual marker not something that alters your inputs. Rewind is no different that the addition of TCS, ASM, braking assist, etc. Adds nothing to the game play other than helping poor drivers very early on. To get to the point where these games differ from an arcade racer, you should be well past the desire to use any of those assists. If you love rewind so much how come your aren't flipping your shit over GRID(the actual first implementation of this feature I believe)? Why? cause all the truly important racing aspects in GRID fall short. I have nothing against defending FZ3 for its merits, but this rewind as the end all be all thing is idiotic.

I could give a shit about how accessible a game is for others, that is the beauty of different genres and interpretations of a genre, they are allowed to focus on specific aspects and refine the hell out of them. Out of all the innovations going into these two titles, rewind is the least genre defining of them. it is just another assist....whopty do.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

No they can't, it's not subjective. When you say definitive, you are saying that you're the absolute best at what you do and there is none greater. Curiously he ignored PC sims while he was on stage and all over the internet. Polyphony on the other hand has never straight up called out their competitors in anyway whatsoever and abused the tagline of the series "The real driving simulator". They shut up and work on the game till it's done, reviewers and the gamers then make up their mind. That's a lesson that T10 could learn from Polyhpony, we wouldn't be here and wouldn't have so much drama over screen shots and features if T10 just hyped their own game without stomping on the toes of others. I mean saying he's never seen anything like Forza on PC's?!. Especially considering the fact that Polyphony is no slouch developer and probably was/is working on many features that T10 may not even have implemented themselves.

Forza is a good game and will do fine, but it is not GT in any way. At the end of the day there will be tons more GT5 in the hands of the public than FM3. The remarks stated by T10 during the whole process though just came off as insecure and showed no sense of good will. T10 is just lucky that they didn't call out any PC sims by name.

So every other Driving Simulator besides GT is "Fake"? Come on, it's completely subjective.

 

[CrushDance]

So every other Driving Simulator besides GT is "Fake"? Come on, it's completely subjective.

Yes but that's the thing, Polyphony has never made it a point to ingrain that in peoples minds. They themselves know it's not true and thing happen quickly(Like Forza coming onto the scene with tons of new changes to the genre) T10 on the other hand really wanted to make it a point.

So if you stand on a stage in front of the world and say " X is definitive", "We're better than you all" x100 you're not opening yourself up for comparisons? You're not saying that people should compare and that they will find it in your favor?

Come onnnn.

 

[J-Rzez]

Man, I really hate this elitist attitude. It’s pretty much the worst reaction someone could have.

It's understandable in these types of games. This is not a Burnout type game.

 

[Firewire]

Its not a true racing sim if it has rewind. Racing sims are devoted to giving players the most realistic experience and there isn't a rewind feature in real life racing. Sure it sucks to screw up a turn in the last lap of a race but you have to pay the price for the error just like in real racing. If you seek perfection you race again and again till you get it right. Rewind is like fools gold, it actually cheats the player into thinking they have accomplished something when in fact they haven't. You only get better times or positions with practice from start to finish.
I personally don't have anything against rewind but if you want it play arcade racers that have it, it has no place in a racing sim.
my 2 cents.

 

[LCfiner]

God, I hope GT6 adds rewinding. please let it happen :lol

 

[BravoSuperStar]

Rewind is a security blanket for the casuals.

 

[Always-honest]

See, I have to disagree. The AA made it actually look worse than Forza 2 to me. I'm odd, I like having my cars/backgrounds look consistent to each other. Forza 3's demo didn't have that. Hopefully if m0dus is right, they'll have that fixed in the final.

ehhhhh........ wut?... i just want jaggies to fuck the fuck out... for ever

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Guy I know who's a huge fan of both GT and Forza got back to me when I asked him his opinion about both series. Here's some quotes:

GT - Always failed in AI, car customization, and damage modeling. AI was predictable, and in Spec races, they rarely got out of line. There was no penalty damage, allowing you to simply late break to the inside and just shove the AI out of the way. From what he knows about GT5 and the damage modeling, it's there, but it's graphical only. Hood getting bent, bumpers coming loose, but doesn't know if it affects the actual car. Not having Porshe or Ferrari until now was a huge mistake.

Forza - Addressed all problems from the very beginning. Physics modeled at the tires first, resulting in more realistic gameplay. Excellent AI and customization. Forza only drops the ball when it comes to graphics. Stated that Forza always "looked gamey" and a little jaggy. GT5 looks better. Liked the open ended gameplay of Forza better.


Concluded that the features in GT5 will put it on par with Forza 1, just nicer looking.

 

[gutterboy44]

It's understandable in these types of games. This is not a Burnout type game.

It is odd how people call it elitist when someone is overly enthusiastic about a racing sim, but a completists rpg player, die hard RTS, level 60 etc.. are regarded as simply hardcore gamers, but because most of us know how to drive real cars we take it personally or something. If someone thinks it is wack to play racing sims with any assists on, so be it, that person clearly is an enthusiast, but don't call them elitist. That word gets thrown around all to often these days.

e⋅lit⋅ism
–noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

Saying assists are lame doesn't fit that definition imo.

 

[CrushDance]

God, I hope GT6 adds rewinding. please let it happen :lol

Only thing that would be useful for is some sort of test mode where you can just mess around.

 

[bishoptl]

Gone are the days of having to work hard to achive something you want, gone are the days of pratice makes perfect, gamers today just want to be spoon feed. Then the want to compare e penises like a bunch of morons when half of them couldn't score over 10,000 in pac-man.

/rant.

Spoiler

Please don't ban me bish, posting in risky thread, goes back to lurking.

You're talking to an old-school Compute's Gazette grognard. I agree 100%

 

[KHarvey16]

Its not a true racing sim if it has rewind. Racing sims are devoted to giving players the most realistic experience and there isn't a rewind feature in real life racing. Sure it sucks to screw up a turn in the last lap of a race but you have to pay the price for the error just like in real racing. If you seek perfection you race again and again till you get it right. Rewind is like fools gold, it actually cheats the player into thinking they have accomplished something when in fact they haven't. You only get better times or positions with practice from start to finish.
I personally don't have anything against rewind but if you want it play arcade racers that have it, it has no place in a racing sim.
my 2 cents.

So there are no true racing sims on any platform then? Surely a restart option must disqualify a game based on your second sentence there.

 

[bj00rn_]

edit: nm

 

[LCfiner]

It is odd how people call it elitist when someone is overly enthusiastic about a racing sim, but a completists rpg player, die hard RTS, level 60 etc.. are regarded as simply hardcore gamers, but because most of us know how to drive real cars we take it personally or something. If someone thinks it is wack to play racing sims with any assists on, so be it, that person clearly is an enthusiast, but don't call them elitist. That word gets thrown around all to often these days.

e⋅lit⋅ism
–noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

Saying assists are lame doesn't fit that definition imo.

But saying that people who might use the feature should not be allowed to play the game is elitist. that’s the quote where I mentioned the term “elitist”.

it’s hardcore to play a racing sim with assists off and a full wheel and clutch/ shifter setup.

it’s elitist to look down and be judgmental to people who don’t play it the same way.

there’s a difference.

 

[Princess Carl]

Its not a true racing sim if it has rewind. Racing sims are devoted to giving players the most realistic experience and there isn't a rewind feature in real life racing. Sure it sucks to screw up a turn in the last lap of a race but you have to pay the price for the error just like in real racing. If you seek perfection you race again and again till you get it right. Rewind is like fools gold, it actually cheats the player into thinking they have accomplished something when in fact they haven't. You only get better times or positions with practice from start to finish.
I personally don't have anything against rewind but if you want it play arcade racers that have it, it has no place in a racing sim.
my 2 cents.

its a feature and an option. It doesnt rewind for you. Therefore, theres no reason for you to act like such a elitist prick and say that rewind makes this game a joke racer. Thats just childish fanboyism.

 

[gutterboy44]

But saying that people who might use the feature should not be allowed to play the game is elitist. that’s the quote where I mentioned the term “elitist”.

it’s hardcore to play a racing sim with assists off and a full wheel and clutch/ shifter setup.

it’s elitist to look down and be judgmental to people who don’t play it the same way.

there’s a difference.

I don't think it goes as far as being elitist. An asshole way of stating an a opinion, sure. Same way my friend doesn't consider me to "beat" FF games because I never get all the best weapons. He doesn't view my play through as complete, and it is just opinion, he isn't elitist.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone half as passionate about these two racing sims as most of the people are in this thread could argue about phyiscs and tire flex modeling till their face turns blue then go home and play one of these games with a controller and assists. It is like bragging about your awesome new sports car that you never have shifted out of second gear. The whole concept of a sim is to simulate, as best possible, real life. Do the inclusion of assists ruin a game, fuck no, turn em off, do I view them as lame crutch that is better suited for the plethora of arcade racers, yes.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

You have just described exactly what I hate about that "genre defining feature" and gamers in general today. Gone are the days of having to work hard to achive something you want, gone are the days of pratice makes perfect, gamers today just want to be spoon feed. Then the want to compare e penises like a bunch of morons when half of them couldn't score over 10,000 in pac-man.

/rant.

Spoiler

Please don't ban me bish, posting in risky thread, goes back to lurking.

Damn right...............

They should be forced to play impossible mission on the atari 7800 (NTSC version).

And not be allowed to play another game till complete............

 

[no angel]

I don't understand, where were all the mario elitists when prince of Persia announced it's rewind feature?

 

[-viper-]

Let's be honest here... The only reason people give a shit about rewind is because it's in Forza 3: The Definitive Racing game of the generation.

No one gave two shits about the feature in GRID.

 

[Dina]

Its not a true racing sim if it has rewind. Racing sims are devoted to giving players the most realistic experience and there isn't a rewind feature in real life racing. Sure it sucks to screw up a turn in the last lap of a race but you have to pay the price for the error just like in real racing. If you seek perfection you race again and again till you get it right. Rewind is like fools gold, it actually cheats the player into thinking they have accomplished something when in fact they haven't. You only get better times or positions with practice from start to finish.
I personally don't have anything against rewind but if you want it play arcade racers that have it, it has no place in a racing sim.
my 2 cents.

GT5 has a race line, an option that can be used or not, yet is not there in real life. By your standards GT5, is not a true racing sim.

And for all the others, you obviously can't rewind online or in versus mode. Your time trial times online are affected by using rewind and thus are always at the bottom of the list. You wanna get your ass kicked in the last corner. No-one is stopping you. Bottomline: Don't want it? Don't use it. You'll never be affected by others racing with rewinds. Only they are, themselves.

"Arcade game". Sure thing bro. :lol

 

[LCfiner]

I don't think it goes as far as being elitist. An asshole way of stating an a opinion, sure. Same way my friend doesn't consider me to "beat" FF games because I never get all the best weapons. He doesn't view my play through as complete, and it is just opinion, he isn't elitist.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone half as passionate about these two racing sims as most of the people are in this thread could argue about phyiscs and tire flex modeling till their face turns blue then go home and play one of these games with a controller and assists. It is like bragging about your awesome new sports car that you never have shifted out of second gear. The whole concept of a sim is to simulate, as best possible, real life. Do the inclusion of assists ruin a game, fuck no, turn em off, do I view them as lame crutch that is better suited for the plethora of arcade racers, yes.

well you didn’t make the comment. Your reaction to the feature may be different than the poster I was responding to. I read his post as being extraordinarily prickish and responded the way I did.

in the end, it’s not a big deal.

I totally agree with you about the fanboy wars going on in here, tho. While I know some folks in this thread take the simulation side seriously (I, obviously, do not) I wager that a good chunk of the most hate filled fanboy bullshit is being spewed by folks driving the games with all assists and with a controller.

because, as this thread so beautifully demonstrates, it’s more about the console and manufacturer allegiances than about the games in question.

 

[Yoritomo]

Damn right...............

They should be forced to play impossible mission on the atari 7800 (NTSC version).

And not be allowed to play another game till complete............

Noo.... Nooo...NOOOO

 

[Firewire]

its a feature and an option. It doesnt rewind for you. Therefore, theres no reason for you to act like such a elitist prick and say that rewind makes this game a joke racer. Thats just childish fanboyism.

I would say the exact same thing about GT if it had rewind, so keep the name calling fanboy shit to yourself.

 

[-viper-]

GT5 has a race line, an option that can be used or not, yet is not there in real life. By your standards GT5, is not a true racing sim.

And for all the others, you obviously can't rewind online or in versus mode. Your time trial times online are affected by using rewind and thus are always at the bottom of the list. You wanna get your ass kicked in the last corner. No-one is stopping you. Bottomline: Don't want it? Don't use it. You'll never be affected by others racing with rewinds. Only they are, themselves.

"Arcade game". Sure thing bro. :lol

Racing line is an assist.

you still have to drive well.

Rewind is a cheat. Crash? Simply rewind to square one.

 

[KHarvey16]

Racing line is an assist.

you still have to drive well.

Rewind is a cheat. Crash? Simply rewind to square one.

You still have to drive well after rewinding. It's a customizable restart ability.

Dance fanboys, dance.