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[gutterboy44]

well you didn’t make the comment. Your reaction to the feature may be different than the poster I was responding to. I read his post as being extraordinarily prickish and responded the way I did.

in the end, it’s not a big deal.

I totally agree with you about the fanboy wars going on in here, tho. While I know some folks in this thread take the simulation side seriously (I, obviously, do not) I wager that a good chunk of the most hate filled fanboy bullshit is being spewed by folks driving the games with all assists and with a controller.

because, as this thread so beautifully demonstrates, it’s more about the console and manufacturer allegiances than about the games in question.

Yeah, it would be amazing if you could somehow pull off a "blind taste test" of these two games for the fanboys and see what one they actually preferred. Although impossible, I am sure it would catch out a large majority. If I or my roommate had a 360 I would be all over FZ3, i have been dying for a new racing sim, GTR 2 is getting old. But as someone who is likely going to only have GT5 this gen, I am thankful for FZ series because it is forcing PD to stop being lazy wankers who have barely moved the genre forward since GT2.

 

[Firewire]

So there are no true racing sims on any platform then? Surely a restart option must disqualify a game based on your second sentence there.

I would love true penalties in a career mode, no restarts at all, lock that shit up till a new season is started. Lets start a petition!

 

[proposition]

Racing line is an assist.

you still have to drive well.

Rewind is a cheat. Crash? Simply rewind to square one.

Rewind is an assist. You still have to drive well.

 

[Dina]

You still have to drive well after rewinding. It's a customizable restart ability.

Dance fanboys, dance.

Exactly what I was gonna say.

 

[achilles140]

Just my two cents:

GT4 was released one year before Forza 1 ,and Forza 2 and 3 will have been released before GT5.

Gt4 was an improvement with lots of cars over GT3 A-Spec but not much more in phisics/simulation.

Gt5 Prologue doesnt handle like Gt4 at all.

Forza has lots of fans and is a great simulator and probably a very fun game.

But ,Turn 10 lied.They said they had the best game ,with the more cars ,tracks ,features ,and the best graphics.They said PD was showing up at their boots in E3 to spy them.They have said PD is stagnated and cant evolve.They trolled themselves here in Neogaf and were discovered.

Thing is ,they have given Forza 3 a graphical overhaul that can be described as marginal(some better antialiasing and filters and thats all) over Forza 2 ,they have less cars and tracks ,and PD is still working in their phisics/damage engine so they cant even compare on that playing field with GT5.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Just my two cents:

GT4 was released one year before Forza 1 ,and Forza 2 and 3 will have been released before GT5.

Gt4 was an improvement with lots of cars over GT3 A-Spec but not much more in phisics/simulation.

Gt5 Prologue doesnt handle like Gt4 at all.

Forza has lots of fans and is a great simulator and probably a very fun game.

But ,Turn 10 lied.They said they had the best game ,with the more cars ,tracks ,features ,and the best graphics.They said PD was showing up at their boots in E3 to spy them.They have said PD is stagnated and cant evolve.They trolled themselves here in Neogaf and were discovered.

Thing is ,they have given Forza 3 a graphical overhaul that can be described as marginal(some better antialiasing and filters and thats all) over Forza 2 ,they have less cars and tracks ,and PD is still working in their phisics/damage engine so they cant even compare on that playing field with GT5.

News flash.

Developers and Producers all hype their games.

Should put this in that SHOCKING TRUTHS thread. Apparently a whole bunch of you gents were unaware of this "hype" thing.

 

[Melfice7]

“We’ve got the best physics, the best graphics, the most cars, the most tracks...we’re trying to redefine the racing genre.”-Dan Greenawalt at your service.

to be fair he only got the graphics part wrong, F3 will be in the market first and be all that. for how long? gotta wait and see

 

[mujun]

You have just described exactly what I hate about that "genre defining feature" and gamers in general today. Gone are the days of having to work hard to achive something you want, gone are the days of pratice makes perfect, gamers today just want to be spoon feed. Then the want to compare e penises like a bunch of morons when half of them couldn't score over 10,000 in pac-man.

/rant.

Spoiler

Please don't ban me bish, posting in risky thread, goes back to lurking.

Or maybe it's because there are more people like myself gaming, well into their 30s, with families and jobs that take up a lot of their time and when they sit down to play a game they at least want the option to just make some progress and have some fun rather than being frustrated by the experience.

 

[Firewire]

You still have to drive well after rewinding. It's a customizable restart ability.

Dance fanboys, dance.

But the price payed is different, screw up a corner on lap 25 and just rewind a few seconds or do all 25 laps over and be forced to get it right every time. Guess which one makes you the better racer!

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Yes but that's the thing, Polyphony has never made it a point to ingrain that in peoples minds. They themselves know it's not true and thing happen quickly(Like Forza coming onto the scene with tons of new changes to the genre) T10 on the other hand really wanted to make it a point.

So if you stand on a stage in front of the world and say " X is definitive", "We're better than you all" x100 you're not opening yourself up for comparisons? You're not saying that people should compare and that they will find it in your favor?

Come onnnn.

Maybe a few hundred thousand people heard Greenawalt call Forza III the "Definitive Racing Game Of The Generation". Millions have people have walked past and read these covers for years now.

"Come onnnn" indeed.

The fact is, one side can say one thing, the other side can say another. You can feel that GT IS the only real driving simulator and I can say Forza, to me, is definitive because it offers the holistic driving experience I have come to expect, where I can race and I can draw Noodle on my car and I have a game that is engineered in all kinds of ways to walk me through the path of getting better at driving games.

It is indeed subjective, is all my point is.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

But the price payed is different, screw up a corner on lap 25 and just rewind a few seconds or do all 25 laps over and be forced to get it right every time. Guess which one makes you the better racer!

So Practice Mode in Rock Band: Beatles didn't make me better at the game? Wrong. It did. It allowed me to chop off a segment of the song and play it over and over again until I got it right. I have the "The End" achievement to prove it.

Rewind performs the same functionality. I fuck up a curve? I drive it again. It's astonishing to me that this is even an argument. There's no difference between Rewind and Restart, only the time it takes you to do it over.

 

[Dina]

But the price payed is different, screw up a corner on lap 25 and just rewind a few seconds or do all 25 laps over and be forced to get it right every time. Guess which one makes you the better racer!

And so we come to the crux of the argument. Rewinding every single error doesn't improve your driving skills. Rewinding one corner out of 40 corners just might.

But you talk as if that is the point of the game. Most gamers play to have fun. I know I do. Racing an endurance race and crashing in the last lap, making my 1 hour long race moot, is not fun to me. It was the reason I quit Forza 2 when races tended to last 8 laps per race.

But once again, it's an option in the game. Want to punish yourself? Go right ahead. It's no reason, however, to slag off Forza 3.

 

[Keikoku]

Maybe a few hundred thousand people heard Greenawalt call Forza III the "Definitive Racing Game Of The Generation". Millions have people have walked past and read these covers for years now.

"Come onnnn" indeed.

The fact is, one side can say one thing, the other side can say another. You can feel that GT IS the only real driving simulator and I can say Forza, to me, is definitive because it offers the holistic driving experience I have come to expect, where I can race and I can draw Noodle on my car and I have a game that is engineered in all kinds of ways to walk me through the path of getting better at driving games.

It is indeed subjective, is all my point is.

Didn't you get the memo ? It's okay when it's on boxarts only !

 

[KHarvey16]

But the price payed is different, screw up a corner on lap 25 and just rewind a few seconds or do all 25 laps over and be forced to get it right every time. Guess which one makes you the better racer!

If you managed the corner just fine for 25 laps you're probably pretty skilled as it is. Mistakes happen, especially when you're sitting on your couch and not in a drivers seat.

Also don't discount the usefulness of being able to repeat a specific corner.

 

[Keikoku]

Racing line is an assist.

you still have to drive well.

Rewind is a cheat. Crash? Simply rewind to square one.

Or you can just, you know, disable it if you don't like it.

 

[robotnjik]

Fuck Rewind. I would like to have something more progressive, like, Fast Forward mini-screen, where I'll see all my future mistakes/crashes and correct them before they happen. That will be so awesome.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

And so we come to the crux of the argument. Rewinding every single error doesn't improve your driving skills. You talk as if that is the point of the game. Most gamers play to have fun. I know I do. Racing an endurance race and crashing in the last lap, making my 1 hour long race moot, is not fun to me. It was the reason I quit Forza 2 when races tended to last 8 laps per race.

But once again, it's an option in the game. Want to punish yourself? Go right ahead. It's no reason, however, to slag off Forza 3.

I disagree actually. I think it does. If you can't take a corner, you won't take a corner, you could rewind it a thousand times. You are learning the RIGHT way to take a corner. Rewind doesn't magically straighten the road for you. If you rewind and then slam the breaks to avoid fucking up the turn, congrats, you're in last place. Rewind changes nothing about the race or the track or your opponents. It just gives you another chance to solve the puzzle of that turn, in that race, at that speed, against those opponents.

That is all.

 

[Dina]

I disagree actually. I think it does. If you can't take a corner, you won't take a corner, you could rewind it a thousand times. You are learning the RIGHT way to take a corner. Rewind doesn't magically straighten the road for you. If you rewind and then slam the breaks to avoid fucking up the turn, congrats, you're in last place. Rewind changes nothing about the race or the track or your opponents. It just gives you another chance to solve the puzzle of that turn, in that race, at that speed, against those opponents.

That is all.

Yeah I agree actually, changed my reply to reflect what I think.

 

[Trunchisholm]

Talking about PacMan and old-school games in general as the epitome of hardcore gaming is plain stupid. Back then, game length had to be artificially inflated by means of insane levels of difficulty, extremely cheap enemies and so on. Otherwise, you could probably beat most of those games in half an hour.

Selectable levels of difficulty in games nowadays, as well as other difficulty modifiers, simply mean that the game experience is going to be better suited to each player's abilities. The same goes for matchmaking in online play. The more customization in that regard, the better.

 

[mujun]

This video explains that if you use the rewind feature you will automatically be ranked lower on the leaderboards. Around the 9 minute mark.

 

[shinnn]

Or you can just, you know, disable it if you don't like it.

That's cool. Can I disable the bumper car physics in the other game?

 

[tirant]

But the price payed is different, screw up a corner on lap 25 and just rewind a few seconds or do all 25 laps over and be forced to get it right every time. Guess which one makes you the better racer!

Neither. Go and drive a real racing car.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

This video explains that if you use the rewind feature you will automatically be ranked lower on the leaderboards. Around the 9 minute mark.

Actually, you get ranked on completely different leaderboards.

 

[Firewire]

If you managed the corner just fine for 25 laps you're probably pretty skilled as it is. Mistakes happen, especially when you're sitting on your couch and not in a drivers seat.

Also don't discount the usefulness of being able to repeat a specific corner.

"Perfection never heard of the mistake"

Only practice makes you better, and one can never practice enough!

 

[KHarvey16]

"Perfection never heard of the mistake"

Only practice makes you better, and one can never practice enough!

And what better than to practice the corner you suck at, over and over?

 

[Firewire]

Neither. Go and drive a real racing car.

You buying?

 

[Firewire]

And what better than to practice the corner you suck at, over and over?

something something the sum of all its parts.

 

[Trunchisholm]

"Perfection never heard of the mistake"

Only practice makes you better, and one can never practice enough!

Having to repeat THE WHOLE RACE when you only screwed a turn is not practice, it is unfair punishment, particularly when talking about endurance races.

 

[Gantz]

Neither. Go and drive a real racing car.

:lol so true.

I was pretty disappointed with the Forza 3 demo. I hope Criterion makes a new Burnout game with GT5 replay graphics or better.

 

[jaypah]

Neither. Go and drive a real racing car.

:lol out of nowhere!

 

[theignoramus]

Maybe a few hundred thousand people heard Greenawalt call Forza III the "Definitive Racing Game Of The Generation". Millions have people have walked past and read these covers for years now.

"Come onnnn" indeed.

The fact is, one side can say one thing, the other side can say another. You can feel that GT IS the only real driving simulator and I can say Forza, to me, is definitive because it offers the holistic driving experience I have come to expect, where I can race and I can draw Noodle on my car and I have a game that is engineered in all kinds of ways to walk me through the path of getting better at driving games.

It is indeed subjective, is all my point is.

Such a shitty, manufactured reading of it. The franchise had practically no equivalent console sim until its fourth entry in 2005, the slogan was meant to distinguish GT from popular arcade racers. Furthermore, the slogan is advertising GT as a driving game, until recently, racing was a secondary aspect of the GT universe, the predominant focus was on simulating an accurate driving experience with hundreds of cars. GT 1,2,3,4 are more like car catalogues than dedicated racers.

 

[Fun Factor]

That's the problem. Its not innovative, at all. I mean literally.. Its GRIDS's rewind feature. Which was GRID's highly advertised selling point, combine that with a Microsoft only product and now you get rewind being heralded as some great innovative addition to the genre. Thats something you wont find in sony products. Taking features from other places and stepping forward with them as unique/new/bullet points.

Face it, the Rewind feature is the new "Racing Line" aid in games today.

It makes it easier & gives more casual fans a chance to get into the games & is something that will be essential in most racing games that come out from now on. Also just like the racing line, it won't ruin the hardcore sim experience.
Well unless there is no option to turn it off/limit it or if there is no risk/reward system for it.
So I kinda agree with you on that.

 

[Interfectum]

I don't see the problem with rewind in Forza 3 so not sure why there is so much discussion over it.

Forza 3 needs to sell a lot more than its predecessors to continue as a series so it's pretty much a requirement that it becomes more casual friendly.

 

[LCfiner]

I don't see the problem with rewind in Forza 3 so not sure why there is so much discussion over it.

Forza 3 needs to sell a lot more than its predecessors to continue as a series so it's pretty much a requirement that it becomes more casual friendly.

unrelenting :lol

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Such a shitty, manufactured reading of it. The franchise had practically no equivalent console sim until its fourth entry in 2005, the slogan was meant to distinguish GT from popular arcade racers. Furthermore, the slogan is advertising GT as a driving game, until recently, racing was a secondary aspect of the GT universe, the predominant focus was on simulating an accurate driving experience with hundreds of cars. GT 1,2,3,4 are more like car catalogues than dedicated racers.

I see where you're coming from. I was only pointing out that PD does put it in the forefront, contrary to his assertion.

unrelenting :lol

Yeah, seriously, I love this assertion.

 

[Dina]

I don't see the problem with rewind in Forza 3 so not sure why there is so much discussion over it.

Forza 3 needs to sell a lot more than its predecessors to continue as a series so it's pretty much a requirement that it becomes more casual friendly.

Why of course. A leads to B leads to C. Thank you for showing me the light.

 

[Firewire]

Having to repeat THE WHOLE RACE when you only screwed a turn is not practice, it is unfair punishment, particularly when talking about endurance races.

Racing simulator! Oh fuck it just hand over the controls to someone willing and able!

 

[ShapeGSX]

Neither. Go and drive a real racing car.

Agreed.

Or just track/autocross your own car.

 

[Recoil]

Racing simulator! Oh fuck it just hand over the controls to someone willing and able!

Man, fuck both Forza and Gran Turismo.

Forget rewinding. Being able to redo a race is bullshit, and not realistic at all. Period.

Come on, it's a racing SIMULATOR. You screw up a race, you should have to redo the whole series/season.

Geez, how soft do you want your little fisher-price 'simulator' games to get? Can't take starting a whole season over again when you screw up?

Pussies.

 

[ascii42]

Man, fuck both Forza and Gran Turismo.

Forget rewinding. Being able to redo a race is bullshit, and not realistic at all. Period.

Come on, it's a racing SIMULATOR. You screw up a race, you should have to redo the whole series/season.

Geez, how soft do you want your little fisher-price 'simulator' games to get? Can't take starting a whole season over again when you screw up?

Pussies.

I believe you mean, you shouldn't be able to redo the series/season. As a matter of fact, you can only play through Gran Turismo mode in its entirety, no redoes.

Yeah, that would be fun.

 

[mujun]

Forza 3 needs to sell a lot more than its predecessors to continue as a series so it's pretty much a requirement that it becomes more casual friendly.

You better have some facts to back that up. I thought Forza 2 sold well, more than enough to break even.

 

[Recoil]

In fact, what's with Gran Turismo and it's pansy pussyfooting around of not deleting a car from your garage when you crash it into a wall at 200mph like a real man's simulator?

Real racing simulator my ass.

Have fun with your arcade games, you girls.



edit: New boxart incomiiing!

 

[Firewire]

Day 1!

 

[AMUSIX]

OK, I'm honestly asking here, but can someone please explain the whole "Rewind is a cheat, not an assist" thing?

Near as I can figure, right now we have the following accepted assists:

Automatic Gearbox - game shifts for you
ABS - game overrides player input to prevent locking up wheels
TCS - game limits physics to prevent lateral slippage (is this right? or does the game again override player input?)
Driving Line - game shows the exact course and speed the driver should be taking

Now, if those are assists, how is the ability to rewind a cheat? Seems to me that rewinding and having the player redo a section at speed is far less of a cheat than the game actively changing the rules to make it easier for the player. It's not like the player doesn't still have to navigate a tricky corner on their own. Heck, even the racing line, where the player doesn't have to understand or learn a course, seems more of a cheat.

Am I missing something here? Because I'm having a difficult time understanding the 'rewind is a cheat' side of things, and I'd really like to get it. Or is it that those who consider rewinding a cheat consider all assists to be cheating? Because I think that would make sense to me.

 

[LCfiner]

OK, I'm honestly asking here, but can someone please explain the whole "Rewind is a cheat, not an assist" thing?

Near as I can figure, right now we have the following accepted assists:

Automatic Gearbox - game shifts for you
ABS - game overrides player input to prevent locking up wheels
TCS - game limits physics to prevent lateral slippage (is this right? or does the game again override player input?)
Driving Line - game shows the exact course and speed the driver should be taking

Now, if those are assists, how is the ability to rewind a cheat? Seems to me that rewinding and having the player redo a section at speed is far less of a cheat than the game actively changing the rules to make it easier for the player. It's not like the player doesn't still have to navigate a tricky corner on their own. Heck, even the racing line, where the player doesn't have to understand or learn a course, seems more of a cheat.

Am I missing something here? Because I'm having a difficult time understanding the 'rewind is a cheat' side of things, and I'd really like to get it. Or is it that those who consider rewinding a cheat consider all assists to be cheating? Because I think that would make sense to me.

You’re missing nothing. it’s just certain people cherry picking what they want to define as a cheat vs. an assist.

it’s an arbitrary dividing line.

 

[evolution]

The rewind assist is meaningless in comparison to the rest of the game. Yet some of you make it seem like its the defining feature for F3.

 

[commedieu]

Face it, the Rewind feature is the new "Racing Line" aid in games today.

It makes it easier & gives more casual fans a chance to get into the games & is something that will be essential in most racing games that come out from now on. Also just like the racing line, it won't ruin the hardcore sim experience.
Well unless there is no option to turn it off/limit it or if there is no risk/reward system for it.
So I kinda agree with you on that.

Face what? Rewind is not the new racing line just because it happens to be in Forza. Which literally backs up what I said about games using other features and pretending its definitive or unique to itself. Forza is setting the bar with GRID's features? lol. OK? Rewind has been in games since before Forza. Its not some new feature.

I turn off the driving line. As do most of the simulation drivers out there. Its a suggested line, not the fastest. Because when im carting, I dont have a magical line in front of me. You study the actual track before you get on the road.

And again, what is with Forza's idiotic race to the casuals? They weren't important in F1, or F2, but now all of a sudden a simulation must cater to them? Please. As I said before, casuals are playing Madden & will buy Shift over forza and Gt.

Forza has had great "community" features as well as more forgiving driving than GT yet it hasn't done a single thing for its sales to boost it into its own league of franchise. Making it easier doesn't seem to be the problem for Forza. Separating itself from Need For Speed is its problem.

 

[commedieu]

In fact, what's with Gran Turismo and it's pansy pussyfooting around of not deleting a car from your garage when you crash it into a wall at 200mph like a real man's simulator?

Real racing simulator my ass.

Have fun with your arcade games, you girls.



edit: New boxart incomiiing!

Steel Battalion is the best game i've ever played in my entire life.

to date.

 

[chespace]

Fuck Rewind. I would like to have something more progressive, like, Fast Forward mini-screen, where I'll see all my future mistakes/crashes and correct them before they happen. That will be so awesome.

We're working on this. It will scare the shit out of you.

 

[cakefoo]

OK, I'm honestly asking here, but can someone please explain the whole "Rewind is a cheat, not an assist" thing?

Near as I can figure, right now we have the following accepted assists:
Automatic Gearbox - game shifts for you

An automatic gearbox makes you slower, as you have less control over which gear and timing is optimal for a specific turn. For instance, I wouldn't want to down-shift to 2nd if I'm coming out of a turn and shifting into 3rd a second later.

It's a realistic feature found on many real cars.

ABS - game overrides player input to prevent locking up wheels

It's a realistic feature found on many real cars.

TCS - game limits physics to prevent lateral slippage (is this right? or does the game again override player input?)

It limits the power that goes to your wheels. But it also greatly restricts the amount of control an experienced driver who utilizes under/oversteer can have.

It's a realistic feature found on many real cars.

Driving Line - game shows the exact course and speed the driver should be taking

It's not actually the fastest line for every car. And it's just telling you where to drive and how much to brake, like an instructor would do. That instruction and knowledge is attainable for all real tracks.

Now, if those are assists, how is the ability to rewind a cheat? Seems to me that rewinding and having the player redo a section at speed is far less of a cheat than the game actively changing the rules to make it easier for the player. It's not like the player doesn't still have to navigate a tricky corner on their own. Heck, even the racing line, where the player doesn't have to understand or learn a course, seems more of a cheat.

Then you don't know what it's like to handle a powerful car at high speed. There's a lot more to it than just timing your braking where it's red and gas when it goes green- you'll also have to steer, brake and accelerate properly.

Am I missing something here? Because I'm having a difficult time understanding the 'rewind is a cheat' side of things, and I'd really like to get it. Or is it that those who consider rewinding a cheat consider all assists to be cheating? Because I think that would make sense to me.

Well, first of all, you can't rewind in real life, whereas you can use TC, ABS, automatic transmissions, and receive tips from a driving instructor on a general driving line. But you can't rewind mistakes in real life. Fans have endlessly touted damage as essential for any racing sim, and the key feature that was holding GT back. Now that it's in, you just want to be able to reverse any damage you take? That's just mind-boggling.

From the sim community's perspective, even the assists you mentioned are frowned upon. You can't use those assists and claim to know much more about driving than someone who plays Dirt 2.